Sanchin and Shime

[Goju-Ryu]

Does the shime performed during the kata Sanchin cause any damage to your body?

I'm not referring to a bad performed Shime...

I practice Okinawan Goju-Ryu from IOGKF (Chojun Miyagi, An'Ichi Miyagi, Morio Higaonna lineage...)

Filipe Magalhães

[MarkF]

No comment on the web site except that it is pretty, but it is content which brings me back to a web site.

Concerning Hwa Rang Do, here is a sample thread written on the subject. If you wish to read more, do a search in the Bad Budo forum.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10541&highlight=hwa+rang+do

Mark

[Garbach]

Hi,

The question you ask, has been asked many times. Bad shime is surely a bad thing but does that make good shime a good thing? Mmm, in my humble opinion: yes. But I’m biased. Why would you think Shime is a bad thing? As far as I know there are no records of people being injured by the use of good shime. If there is any information I’d sure like to get my hands on it.

[Goju-Ryu]

I'm not thinking it's a bad thing...

I love to make Sanchin and to be tested...

But I read some articles that spoke about increased blood pressure, and breath sustening... But I'm still thinking it was referring to the possible harm that a bad Sanchin could cause to you...

Well.... If you have something to say about this or some information it would be fine to read it!

[Garbach]

But I read some articles that spoke about increased blood pressure, and breath sustening... But I'm still thinking it was referring to the possible harm that a bad Sanchin could cause to you...
Filipe, Mark Bishop in his book on Okinawan Karate makes the statement that Goju-ryu is bad for your health, due to the practice of Sanchin. He also mentions high blood pressure and obesity with older practitioners. Most of his comments on Goju and Sanchin are based on hearsay, and he provides no real evidence. I’m not saying he doesn’t know what he is talking about, I respect the man as karateka and for all the work he has done, but the opinion from someone with a medical background would be preferable regarding this subject. We do have to be careful with making statements about health issues, without a medical background or knowing other variables in the mentioned examples. For all we know the mentioned high blood pressure was the result of genetics or their lifestyles. The people Bishop quotes are practitioners of other styles. We do not know of any possible politicized arguments.

Now for the shime part. Punching and kicking are not a part of Shime in the IOGKF curriculum, at least I’ve never heard of it and have never seen people being kicked or punched. This form of Shime does exist in Euchi Ryu. The goal of Shime isn’t ‘hardening’ the body, but providing a feedback mechanism for the person who is doing Sanchin so he can perform it better. As for the slapping it is done in a very regulated fashion. It is done on certain parts of the body that can ‘take a lot’ and it is adjusted to the person’s level of skill. In my opinion teaching someone incorrectly, both Sanchin and Shime, is more dangerous. And most likely the source of the hearsay about the health issues.

Could you tell us the names of the authors and the titles of the articles you’ve read?

[CEB]

Shime is good. Shime I think is eventually necessary to progress in your Sanchin training. But heck what do I know this is just my opinion. I’m just some old fart from Illinois.

There are times that Sanchin becomes difficult for me. I have bad days where I get the upper body just right and the lower body goes to hell. When I fix my feet and legs I lose tension in the upper body. It reminds of a dog chasing his tail. The dog never quite catches it. Shime helps the dog catch his tail.

Shime should help a practitioner perform at a higher level of correctness than he could perform alone. The shime when applied are just touches or presses. The light contact when applied is all that is necessary to remind the body to correct itself. Once someone begins to practice the iron body aspect Sanchin shime still starts with a touch. The touch insures that the muscle is tight before heavier contact is applied. My teacher used to gives us what we called okinawian tattoos across the top of our shoulders. This is where he would slap us so hard it left his hand prints on our shoulders. Even this started with touch and touch with a downward stroking motion which reminded me to relax and ‘roll’ the shoulders down. The goal is always to help build someone never to catch someone off guard and break them. If you want to break someone’s Sanchin just blast them in the face and break their nose, that will probably do it and this proves nothing.

There is a basis for the idea of increasing the body’s blood pressure. Popular opinion is that is not healthy and I agree. There is some debate if this can still be performed by young people and discontinued once the karate-ka gets older or if the practice should be discontinued all together. The idea as I understand it is that you breath in a manner which over oxygenates the blood. You raise the blood pressures to increase the rate that the over oxygenated blood feeds the muscles by using the rise in blood pressure to send the blood to the capillaries quicker. All the while you are working the muscles with isometric tension in Sanchin. Was used as a method to build strength. There was a time I did this but I stopped. The key is not to forcibly restrict your breathing. For us white guys, if we start turning red this is the warning sign. I am not a doctor so I can’t speak about the blood pressure thing with any real knowledge. IMO there are many ways to build muscle strength that do not put a negative strain on the body I don’t see the sense in messing with your pulmonary system in a way that can hurt you. I used to do this 15 years ago and I now have hypertension and take medicine. Is this from Sanchin or genetics or that fact that I am addicted to salt on my food, I don’t know. My guess is it is genetic.

I hope this adds something to the discussion and I pray I have somewhat made sense.

[CEB]

Sorry Garbach.

Didn't mean to be redundant in covering some of the same things you wrote about. I was writing my post while you had made your post and know you cover some of these things.

[tote]

"He also mentions high blood pressure and obesity with older practitioners."

Eh? So now karate can make you fat?

How can sanchin, which I understand is basically a breathing excercise, cause obesity?

[Steven Malanosk]

Firstly, I am a GoJu stylist, so understand that I am just repeating what others have said.

While living in Okinawa, I heard the anti sanchin mentionings from a few sources,ie, mostly Shorin schools such as Zenpo Shimabukuro's folks and a few others. On one of my frequent visits to his dojo, one of his students asked me what style I practiced. When I said GoJu, he said, "that explains the big sides." Not being fat, but not skinny like he was, I asked what he meant. He said that GoJu made for portly practitioners and that you dont see many old GoJu masters as opposed to the old Shorin masters on the island.

Now, Eizo Shimabuku no relation to Zenpo, from another Shorin org., teaches Sanchin at shodan level, as opposed to our using it as a base.

The practice of Sanchin is good for you, albeit often done improperly.

Shime, is essential, albeit often done by those who dont have enough knowledge of it, especially at some tournaments during kata competition.

Improper posture and guttural breathing are often the culprit, in cases of sanchin causing harm.

[Michael Clarke]

Just an observation.
You don't want to give too much weight to what one Okinawan karate teacher says about another. Having trained there a number of times, I know that they are just as likely to tell forigners 'stories' as the truth. Many Okinawan believe we will never 'get it' anyway, when it comes to karate, so, when I hear shorin-ryu teachers tell people that you never see an old goju practitioner, I'm wondering why I have known, and still know so many ?
Like every other form of training, it's how you do it that counts, today most people simply follow the guy at the head of the company (Whoops! I mean association). They remain followers all their lives, and never once think of taking personal responsibility for their own karatedo. This is also how many company bosses (Whoops, I mean Association Chief instructors) like it. It keeps them employed.
The tradition of traditional martial arts, is to learn first, accept responsibility second, and make the transition from your situation as a novice to someone who has grasped a new reality.
Shu, Ha, Ri.
Training in the traditional methods of Goju-ryu will not shorten your life. Nore will training in Shorin-ryu lengthen it. Training in stupid ways (regardless of style) will do you harm (maybe only years later), where as training with common sense will only inhance your health and life in general.
Just my opinion of course.
Train with good sense, not just the guy with the most students.
Mike Clarke.

[shugyosha]

it would be good to have the opinion about sanchin from a doctor :)

[Ron Rompen]

OK, someone here (and I guess I'm elected) has to ask the question; What is shime?

I am a Japanese Goju Ryu practitioner (3rd kyu) and sanchin is taught as one of our core kata.

I may be aware of what shime is by a different name, but untl I'm sure, I don't want to make a total ass of myself by commenting (like that has ever stopped me before!)

[Tatsu]

Originally posted by shugyosha
it would be good to have the opinion about sanchin from a doctor :)

Yeah like anyone would listen anyway. I've posted the info before, but everyone just ignored it like I was talking out of my arse!

I am a 4th year medical student (will be an MD next year), with 8 years of Level I Trauma experience, a formerly nationally certified Paramedic, and USAF medic. My bro is an Orthopedic Spine Surgeon, and we often talk about Sanchin and its effects with our sensei.

Of course causing vascular tension by repeatedly forcefully exhaling is bad for you (it's called a "valsalva maneuver"). It elicits a vaso-vagal response and the blood pressure increases rapidly. If you are old with cardiovascular disease (or have a familial history of coronary disease or atherosclerosis), the increased pressure in your blood vessels can "throw" a clot, or other "debris" in your vessels and cause a stroke.

In Matsumura Seito we do Shorinji Sanchin, which uses natural breathing. A lot of Sanchin performed by Uechi Ryu (Pangai Noon) practitioners and Morio Higaonna's Goju students is also very safe and beneficial to you. I have seen some silly Sanchin being practiced by some Goju Ryu cats, that looked very not good: aesthetically and health-wise.

IMHO.

[j-lane]

Hello Bryan:
Good luck with your medical studies. I am a pediatrician (MD class of '91).

First: a vaso-vagal response will cause a drop in heart rate and blood presssure (a classic faint)- also no good for someone with cardiovascular disease. I suppose the heart rate and BP will shoot up after the event- the rapid changes are also no good.

The real problem as might relate to Sanchin can be thought of in the same way as obstructive sleep apnea. (Note: boring physiological stuff about to follow) Repeatedly forcing air against a closed glottis (Valsalva maneuver) will increase intrathoracic pressure and decrease systemic venous return to the right heart and lungs. That combined with oxygen deprivation in sleep apnea over a period of time can cause pulmonary hypertension and heart failure. I've seen a few cases of this, even in a child with sleep apnea.

Now, I don't know anything about Sanchin, since I do not practice an Okinawan style, but I suppose if it is performed the wrong way over a long period of time, it might produce the same adverse results. Whether or not Sanchin is in fact harmful I can't really say, but in theory it could be if practiced incorectly.

[Garbach]

originally posted by tote:
Eh? So now karate can make you fat? How can sanchin, which I understand is basically a breathing excercise, cause obesity?
I don’t see how it could, but just like Mike said, there are a lot of stories out there portrayed as truth. Perhaps the people with a medical background could shed some light on this matter?

originally posted by Mike Clarke:
Training in stupid ways (regardless of style) will do you harm (maybe only years later), where as training with common sense will only inhance your health and life in general.
An important issue is mentioned by several people, the way you train changes when you get older. And so it should. As with every other aspect of training, once age sets in your body won’t be able to do everything it once could. It’s unfortunate but bodies get weaker after a certain age, even if one continues to train steadily. Training helps you to remain healthy to a certain extent and slow down the aging process, but can never stop the decline completely. It is therefore in my opinion necessary to adjust the training intensity, to ones specific needs. Perhaps it is also necessary to perform Sanchin in another way, once one gets older. Always keeping in mind Mike’s arguments that training should be done with good sense.

The medical information provided, is very useful. Thanks guys!

[Harry Cook]

I don't think correct training in Sanchin kata is dangerous as long as the practitioner does not hold his/her breath. I think that when you are told to place the tip of your tongue against the roof of the mouth and to make the breathing audible it is actually to ensure that the glottis is not closed and so the valsalva manoeuvre is avoided.
It is instructive to be aware of Bill Starr's comments on page 5 of his excellent work The Strongest Shall Survive (1978, but republished recently I think) where he discusses the dangers of the valsalva manoeuvre in relation to performing a maximum lift.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[jafwwjd]

tatsu and j-lane,

You seem to have some good medical information regarding Sanchin. Do either of you know of any scientific studies specifically aimed at practitioners of Sanchin?

Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan MA does claim that Goju is unsafe, but as someone wrote earlier, those particular statements were not scientifically verified.

I would be extremely interested (as a Goju practitioner) to know if there exists a statistically significant, well-controlled, scientific study of properly-performed Sanchin and its specific effects on the health of its practitioners.

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

[shugyosha]

thanks tatsu for the information

i join your point of view.
i remember the story of bodidharma, he went from madras to shao lin
then saw all the monk weak and falling asleep during meditation
then he, learn them how to direct ki (qi) in a particular point of the body to reinforce their strengh
ken zen ichinyo was born
but there after, some built to much physical strengh and learn bad qi training, i think by extension this is the result of
hard sanchin, and soft sanchin and only the second is healthy

i have seen and read, in general, in martial art and life
softness overcome hardeness at the and, so training hardeness too much and you will pay the price

[Goju-Ryu]

Sanchin Breathing: Are you hurting yourself?

The following post on the "CyberDojo" represents a popular concern that martial artists have regarding the practice (or I should say incorrect practice) of the Sanchin kata. Bill Glasheen then presents his views on the subject. GEM


It has long been known that dynamic tension katas were of questionable value, despite being strongly supported by those who have been taught to do them. Just as hypertension is damaging to the body over a long period of time, such artificial spiking of the vascular,cranial, and pulmonary pressures is NOT good for you and will do some damage, especially if you happen to have a predisposition to hypertension, peripheral vascular disease, or congenital vascular abnormalities (A-V malformations, aneurysms, etc). There are benefits to breathing control, but it appears physiologically that sanchin hard ibuki breathing should go the way of knuckle toughening, knuckle pushups, and straight leg situps- DON"T DO IT. If you want to work on muscular dynamics, use weight training with proper breathing control, including kata with weights for resistive exercise and balance control. For breath control and focus, it woudld be safer to use taichi style soft breathing and concentrate on centering, rather than using the extreme isometric contraaction of sanchin style forms. It is possible to focus on muscular dynamics without doing the damage that such isometric contraction produces. There are adverse effects to the heart (dysrhythmias) Lungs (increased pulmonary pressure), kidneys (transient hypertension),eyes (increased intraocular pressure). Do small amount of damafge for long enough, and the body can no longer repair itself. . Taichi has been shown to have positive health benefits, where sanchin style isometric contraction does not. Just a thought, for those who insist on doing the kata "full bore", the body is a wonderful machine, and will adapt to most abuse, however, there are limits, and sanchin goes beyond those limits, just like straight leg situps, knuckle pushups, and traditional hand toughening. Just because Joe Blow did it and survived, doen't make it good for you. Everyone who does knuckle toughening develops some degree of arthritis. Everyone who does isometrics does some degree of barometric damage to various organs, everyone who smokes does some damage to their lungs and heart. Do what you wish, but it is a bit like Russian Roulette, des neh? Osu

Wild Bill The Tuchuk (Khalizek of the Kur Clan) aka William H. Johnson, RN Univ of Va,Cardiac Cath Lab, Box 438-24,Charlottesville, VA 22908 whj5k@galen.med.virginia.edu


I find the previous note facinating in that it makes perfect sense, and yet in its eloquence and clarity, it demonstrates what I view as a misunderstanding in how Sanchin should be practiced. I think this gentleman is accurately describing Sanchin as he has seen it performed and as he was taught how to do it.

My qualifications: A doctorate in biomedical engineering with an emphasis in systems physiology. A dissertation on rhythms in cardiopulmonary systems, which includes quantification of how respiration affects arterial and venous pressure, heart rate, and peripheral vascular flow. Five years of research in the field of cardiology. Renshi rokudan in Uechi Ryu (one "style" of sanchin). Nidan in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (another "style of sanchin). My humble opinions follow:

In the Uechi Sanchin

Moderate tension should exist only to hold the pelvis under, keep the abdomen firm (not hard), keep the shoulders pulled down, and keep the straightened fingers rigid. The strikes and blocks are done with focus, and with as little counter resistence as possible. Uechi Ryu is a predominantly open handed system that employs specialized strikes with pointed surfaces to vulnerable areas. Maximal efforts are not necessary. 400 lb bench press ability is not necessary. Therefore there is no need to create a breathing technique WITH the strikes as it makes no difference in the ultimate utility of the strike. Uechi stylists thus choose to "hide" the breathing by taking breaths between strikes. There are exceptions to this in the Uechi system; any pushing movements would benefit from doing an exhale with the movement as there is resistance to the movement in much the same way as there is resistance to muscles in a bench press. But the bulk of the system (and the focus of Uechi Sanchin) is application of low internal resistance, focused techniques - good relaxed and fluid movement. The Valsalva discussion is moot.

In the Goju system (from my perspective, experience, and opinion) The points of tension for the pelvic tuck, firm abdomen, lowered shoulders and firm hand are identical. However the Goju sanchin has a closed fist instead of an open, pointed hand. The hand positions are meant to be abstractions of the types of techniques done in the system. The predominant technique in Goju Ryu is the seiken (closed handed punch). The trademark technique of Uechi Ryu is the shoken (one knuckle punch). Goju's technique allows - and to some extent requires - more total energy. Consequently the practitioner benefits from resistance training. This is done in the Goju Sanchin through its dynamic tension fist strikes. The kata was choreographed long before Olympic weights and weight training machines were invented and in common use. However the way that these activities are done can - and should - be identical. The proper breathing in Goju Sanchin and a bench press should NOT be a Valsalva maneuver (breath hold).

If one is doing a bench press with 50 pounds, IDEAL breathing would be a gentle exhale with each weight extension. There is a little value to this in that: 1) no breath holding exists which would create the Valsalva maneuver, and 2) the slightly increased intrathoracic pressure would increase blood flow to the muscles being worked. A similar situation exists in karate with a strong punch. All the same physiologic principles apply.

If one is doing a bench press with a very heavy weight, IDEAL breathing would involve a more restricted exhale. The object is not to use the epiglottis as a cork. The principle is similar to the art of pressure cooking. A pressure cooker maintains a constant internal pressure to speed the process of cooking. The pressure inside is directly proportional to the little weight that one puts over the hole. Some pressure cookers actually come with several sized weights. One might be used to cook vegetables quickly. Another might be used to tenderize stew beef. In weight lifting and karate, the amount of counterresistance to an exhale should be proportional to the amount of work that one wants to do with a motion. We don't cork the pressure cooker because we don't want dinner all over the kitchen. We don't do a Valsalva maneuver in weight training or karate because we don't want strokes, aneurisms, hernias, hemorroids, or blackouts. If I am benching my max, I perform a veritable kiai (resistance to exhale results in a very loud yell).

Goju Sanchin was designed to give us the ability to practice a tremendous dynamic range of resistance motions, and to learn how to correctly titrate the breathing resistance. Those I see practice the vein-popping muscle- rippling window-rattling sanchin are - in my humble opinion - suffering from testosterone-induced showmanship. They do impress some people. They do not impress me as being particulary enlightened. The amount of time a martial arts practitioner spends moving pianos for self defense is rare. So why spend so much time practicing something that has little application? Most smart martial artists evolve to a point where they get the job done with the LEAST amount of effort.

One final note. Everybody always talks about exhaling. Does anybody out there (with the exception of Bill Clinton) ever inhale? The nose-restricted inhale is the yin half to the epiglottis restricted (yang) exhale. Restricting an inhale LOWERS the intrathoracic pressure. This increases venous return and subsequently gives the heart more blood to pump out on the exhale. This also eliminates the cumulative negative effects of restrictive exhales. One should not be done without the other.

My conclusions: the negative effects discussed are irrelevant in the Uechi Sanchin. They are potentially there in the Goju style Sanchin, but only if done improperly.

Bill Glasheen

[Goju-Ryu]

I'd like to see some comments on the post before and also someone that could explain in simple words what isometric contraction is...
If possible explain the medical facts with simple language that everybody can understand ;)

[Steven Malanosk]

This posting, made more sense than most of what is prominjant on the net these days.

Good perspective on both NahaTe Ryu.

Was this personal conclusion from martial and medical study, or some knowledge passed on through a ryu ha?

[stencil]

When we do Sanchin Kata in my dojo (Goju Ryu), we are always reminded of the potential health dangers. The sensei is often more concerned about someone's healthy breathing than he is about going around to do shime.

To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.

Any martial art is dangerous if not done right, no?

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by stencil
When we do Sanchin Kata in my dojo (Goju Ryu), we are always reminded of the potential health dangers. The sensei is often more concerned about someone's healthy breathing than he is about going around to do shime.

To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.

Any martial art is dangerous if not done right, no?

This is true... however, I think more people are aware of the dangers of physical karate, and perhaps not aware of the dangers of forceful breathing, whether they are true or not. You are lucky that you are given the information and allowed to decide. Most people don't have that. I don't know if I totally agree that it is terribly harmful if done right; but then, I have seen some people who really don't know what they are doing who I have seen and been like, "yeah, now THEY are probably going to hurt themselves doing that!"

[Goju-Ryu]

Originally posted by stencil

To say that Sanchin is dangerous just seems silly to me, and sounds like the comments of someone who has watched it without participating in it, or someone who was trained in it incorrectly.


I asked this not for have been watching Sanchin being performed...
I asked because for instance, I once read that during Shime you should not be punched in the stomach (abdominal area), and during Shime my sensei punches and strikes us in that area... Is that correct or incorrect? And when I say "strikes" he really "strikes" us...

[stencil]

Filipe:

It's my understanding, and what I've been told, that the purpose of being "struck" in the abdomen is really to check that you're exhaling from your abdomen/diaphragm as opposed to from your chest.

A hard strike there, I'm afraid, can't be all that good for you. My sensei will give us a good shuto slap, but nothing to really hurt us. He'll also check between our shoulder blades that we're tight there as well. Also with the legs and a bit of a kick to make sure that our sanchin stance is correct. His "strikes" are meant to teach us, not hurt us.

[Goju-Ryu]

:o Joshua:
I just want to explain something. My sensei doesn't strike us hard in order to hurt us, he does it in order to test our cocentration and help us to improve our Sanchin, and maybe he does it because it's the way he sees the situation...

[hobbitbob]

Not a physician, merely a grad student in history and a 16 year EMT-P. Anyway, it would seem to me that it would be impossible to sustain the increased intrathoracic pressure generated by Ibuki breathing long enough to do any real damage. In my modest experience, using the valsalva manouvre with patients in SVT, the results are self-limiting. I.e....one would "pass out" before doping too much damage (consider the oft repeated childhood threats of breath holding.).
In a small example of the grand tradition of self experimentation in medicine, I hooked myself up to the monitor and did Sanchin, paying attention to heart rate and any ectopy that might occur (yes, it was a slow night in the ED tonight!). I observed the following:
1) The rest of the nursing staff, as well as the staff docs and residents look at you funnily when you are hissing like a teakettle.
2) There was a corresponding drop in heart rate from my usual 60ish to the low 50's during exhalation.
3) my HR incresed to 90ish during the three spear hand strikes.
4) My beginning blood pressure of 100/52 and ending BP of 148/70 were explainable in terms of short term exertion, and do not seem to represent anything that might imply a harmful trend.
IF any Kata is hazardous to one's health, in my opinion, it is Unsu (Especially for those of us in the over 30 crowd, with bad knees!) and Kanku-Dai, which leaves me feeling like I've just run five miles uphill!
Whoops...sleep deprivation induced digression.
Osu!
:D

[Goju-Ryu]

hobbitbob thank you very much for your post! It's really interesting!
But there are certain things I didn't understood... For example what is an ectopy?
Is that drop in heart rate (HR I presume) during exhalation normal? And if not is it harmful? And the increment until 90ish?

"My beginning blood pressure of 100/52 and ending BP of 148/70 were explainable in terms of short term exertion" <<-- What do this mean?

It's kind of difficult to someone with no medical knowledge to understand some of these things! :D

[davoravo]

Chronic high blood pressure causes damage, not little spikes. Being fit and healthy decreases your long term blood pressure. Sharp spikes in blood pressure are only bad if you are one of those incredibly unlucky people who have a problem with the blood vessels in the brain (eg A-V malformation, berry aneurysm - all very rare). Likewise the damage from obstructive sleep apnoea is due to chronic hypercarbia and abnormalities in thoracic pressure not occasional breaths (how long do you sleep compared to how long you do sanchin?)

If Sanchin were so dangerous so would standing on your head and weight lifters clean and jerks.

An ectopy is most easily described as an extra heart beat (usually arising in an damaged part of the heart or representing a problem in the way the heart conducts its electrical signals) and isn't really relevant to this situation.

A drop in heart rate on exhalation and an increase on inhalation are completely normal. A small increase in heart rate and blood pressure with exercise is normal

If you are overweight and the fat goes on your abdomen that is a high risk factor for heart disease. The distribution of fat is genetically determined, not exercise determined - you can't spot reduce (or spot increase no matter how many of those pumps you buy :D ).

Don't Japanese consider having a little pot a sign of good hara?

"There was a corresponding drop in heart rate from my usual 60ish to the low 50's during exhalation" - hobbitbob you are fit!!

[Goju-Ryu]

Originally posted by davoravo
Don't Japanese consider having a little pot a sign of good hara?


"Chiru no Chan Chan" is the name given at Okinawa to that type of muscular condition, where the muscles are strong as steel but flexible and elastic. Specially to the practice of karate the muscles should be strong but flexible and covered by a "protective ammount of fat"

[Steven Malanosk]

Good morning!

If you look back to page of this thread, you will see me speaking of the negative commentary that I rteceived as to this very thing, from those of the Shuri leneage, when they found that I was of the Naha Te.

Bingo.

That was the phrase that they quoted, with their critique of our SanChin body.

[jaw]

Good day,

I am Asian, started doing Sanchin almost everyday since 5 years, severe sleep apnea (OSA) patient (more than 50 stops per hour, thus AHI = 50).

I do Sanchin religiously since it helps pumping oxygen to my brain, much needed for my job as a programmer and for my body as an OSA patient.

But now I am scared to see that Sanchin plus Sleep Apnea can kill me. Anyone could shred some light here: if I use Sanchin only to quickly breath in and out, is that harmful ?

I refer to a post by another user in this thread here:

"The real problem as might relate to Sanchin can be thought of in the same way as obstructive sleep apnea. (Note: boring physiological stuff about to follow) Repeatedly forcing air against a closed glottis (Valsalva maneuver) will increase intrathoracic pressure and decrease systemic venous return to the right heart and lungs. That combined with oxygen deprivation in sleep apnea over a period of time can cause pulmonary hypertension and heart failure. I've seen a few cases of this, even in a child with sleep apnea"

Thanks

[CEB]

It's OK. You will be fine. Remember power doesn't come from noise. Keep your airways open when breathing. There is a lot of !!!!!!!! in the West pretending to be Sanchin. Which Kan or branch of Karate do you get your Sanchin?

If you are really worried let a small little breath escape before you start a major exhale especially if you ever feel pressure in your ears.