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Paulo K. Ogino
7th July 2002, 00:30
I practice Muso Shinden Ryu Iaijutsu, and I've been studying and investigating for a while. I've seen many variations on the style and also many common points with many other styles. Some people states that Muso Shinden is not Koryu and other (my sensei included) thinks it is. Please give me some informed comments so I and many others in this BBS can learn a bit more about this school.

Benjamin Peters
7th July 2002, 00:41
From what little I know, I can say as the Muso Shinden Ryu was founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1590), was founded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu then later revised by Nakayama Hakudo, an unbroken lineage still existed and accordingly, the ryu (In my humble opinion) could be described as modern variant of a koryu. To answer your query, personally I would class it as koryu.

(I know you asked for informed responses - but I couldn't help myself as I find this topic interesting :D)

Check out the following page:
Is Muso Shinden Koryu - explaination (http://members.tripod.com/choisai/writings/MusoShind.html)

There are a number of varying opinions on whether Muso Shinden Ryu should be considered "koryu" or not. Even with in the circle of my various sensei there are differing opinions. One group will generally say that Muso Shinden Ryu is not koryu. Nakayama Hakudo sensei reorganized the ryuha he inherited (16th generation headmaster of the Shimomura ha of Hayashizaki and Eishin's teachings/ryu), made a number of changes to the kata and gave it a new name. Therefore these people will say it is not koryu, as it was "founded" this century. It is entirely a new thing. The other group says yes it is koryu. It has a lineage that is traceable, the techniques are similar, if not basically the same, as that of another art that is generally considered koryu (Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu) and so what if the name has been changed, that happened all the time in the past. Not surprisingly, my own Muso Shinden Ryu sensei are of that opinion.

Paulo K. Ogino
7th July 2002, 00:48
Benjamin,

I agree with you. I've got the same information, so I wanted to get more from anybody that can help. There are many plcaes in the web, but most of them show the same stuff. I guess there should be some old books in japanese, but I can't read kanji :(

Benjamin Peters
7th July 2002, 01:08
I guess it's important to define koryu then hey.

Click here What is Koryu Bujutsu? (http://koryu.com/koryu.html)

Rennis
7th July 2002, 02:30
My general opinion on the issue is that Muso Shinden ryu is historically speaking identifiable as a koryu (as the article quoted above states). However I would also add that a large portion of the current practitioners (at least in Japan) approach it in a manner more akin to gendai budo than koryu. Really it comes down to the sensei and how he transmits the ryu. Some are more "old school", many are more modern/seitei-ish in their approach, and most lay somewhere in the hazy grey area in between the two ends, so it is impossible to make any sort of concrete statement on the issue.

Best regards,

Rennis Buchner

Paulo K. Ogino
7th July 2002, 07:15
I have seen some Kendo schools practicing the Seitiei Iai and the Muso Shinden Iai as part of the curriculum, and I see a lot of times that many movements in the Muso have adopted the Seitei ways.
For example, in Ryuto (Omori Ryu) I've learned that the first blocking and then cutting is done in two quick steps, but I see in Kendo schools that in Ryuto that part is done in three steps, in the same way as the Seitei Iai Ukenagashi.

Maybe some of this "modernization" could be a side effect of adopting the Muso Shinden Ryu by many Kendo schools. I may be wrong. Since I've learned Iaido in an Aikido school, my sensei teached me this style. I know that other Aikido schools have different Iai styles, like the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

Earl Hartman
7th July 2002, 07:27
I think perhaps that part of the confusion stems from the fact that AFAIK, most practitioners of MJER or MSR are graded in the modern "dan-i" system and do not receive traditonal "menkyo"-style licenses.

For example, I trained in MJER with Masaoka Katsukane (Kazumi) S., a direct student of Oe Masamichi and one of three men who received the Kongen no Maki (the MJER version of menkyo kaiden) from Oe S. However, while I know that Masaoka S. conferred the Kongen no Maki to one Noda Toru S. of Kochi, thus continuing his line of MJER, I am not aware that any of the people in my practice group received any traditonal licenses specific to MJER. Indeed, I do not know what kind of intermediate licenses exit/existed in MJER. We were all tested by a panel of judges operating under the asupices of the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, which has an iaido department of which Masaoka S. was the head. To the best of my knowledge, MSR operates under the auspices of the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei, so I would guess that people are tested there in the same way.

Thus, while MJER and MSR may indeed be koryu, they appear to be practiced and managed in the more bureaucratic gendai budo style today.

Scott Irey
8th July 2002, 18:27
Earl,

I wanted to point out that there were actually 10 recipiants who recieved Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi. There may be as many as 12, but my understanding is that other 2 recipiants passed away before a gentleman doing research on the matter could interview them and confirm they actually had recieved the scroll.

The traditional ranking system for MJER is Mokuroku, Shosho, and Kongen no Maki. There are still a few groups that follow the old system and are not under any of the large blanket Iai organizations.

As for MSR being Koryu, I have been told by all my MJER instructors that it is cosidered Koryu. All the research I personally have been able to conduct certainly backs up what my instructors have told me.

Earl Hartman
8th July 2002, 22:00
Scott:

I know of three Kongen no Maki recipients, Masaoka S., Mori S. and Hokiyama S. Do you know who the others are/were?

Thanx for the info on MJER licenses.

I have always assumed that MSR is koryu; my only point was that because of the use of the dan-i grading system and the authority vested in large national organizations it is not so hard to understand why some people might be confused.

Scott Irey
8th July 2002, 22:58
Earl,

Here are the names (last names only...have to find the rest of my notes) of the Kongen no Maki recipients I am aware of:

Masaoka S.
Koda
Matsuda
Suzue
Fukui H.
Mori S.
Yamamoto T.
Sakamoto
Yamanouchi T.
Hogiyama N.

I believe my initial numbers were off. It appears there were possibly 16 recipients of Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi. Those listed above are I believed all confirmed recipients.

My understanding is that even in some of the organizations which use the Dan-i system, that maki-mono are still awarded to direct students of the respective head of each "Ha". I know that my teacher who was a direct student of Fukui Seizan was both hachidan and a recipient of Shosho from Fukui sensei.

I agree with you on people being confused by the majority of MJER and MSR practitioners being ranked in the Dan-i system. The fact that there is so little access to direct lines of tranmission here in the West as well as in Japan does not make things easy for outsiders to the art to understand either. The fact that there are so many people practicing with instructors who are far removed from a direct line I guess neccessitates that the Dan-i grading system be used now.

Anyways, very interesting stuff.

wmuromoto
10th July 2002, 00:19
I think, IMHO, that the Muso Shinden-ryu's classification is a gray area.

One day my Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu teacher asked a fellow student of mine, who was also studying the Takeuchi-ryu kobudo's iai system, how that ryu did its toh-rei. When he saw it, he nodded his head and said, "Yup, that's a koryu."

My friend asked why he thought so and said that most koryu will do toh-rei a certain way, with the ha pointed a certain direction. The MJER and Takeuchi-ryu, and TSKR, etc. all do it with the ha pointed in to oneself, away from the kamiza, for the same reason. It's a minor point, but it illustrated the whole mind-set of the ryu. The seitei gata beginning rei and Muso Shinden-ryu don't; I believe it was an influence from the ZNKR and Nakayama Hakudo's changes. But that's not to say it's NOT a koryu, it's just that it may have been reworked--a lot. Good or bad? I think it's up to the practitioner. Most Japanese sword people think Hakudo was a 20th Century martial arts genius; one of the top three 20th Century sword masters. Even the really old koryu change over the years. Now we do our reishiki the ZNKR way, which is an amalgamation of Muso Shinden and MJER; to make everybody happy, we have to do it one way in the beginning, the other way at the end. So it goes.

Wayne

Benjamin Peters
10th July 2002, 00:47
Hi Wayne

Most Japanese sword people think Hakudo was a 20th Century martial arts genius; one of the top three 20th Century sword masters.

Who would you consider to be the top three?

wmuromoto
12th July 2002, 00:17
There's sure to be disagreements, but among the top 20th Century kendo masters, the list usually includes Nakayama Hakudo and Takano Sasaburo.

Others in the list could include Saito Yoshiharu (? or was it Yagoro? Can't remember off the top of my head), Sasamori Junzo...and gee...his name escapes me; he just recently passed away...Of them all, Hakudo and Sasaburo stood out in the pre-WWII, post Meiji kendo era.

Sasaburo studied the Ono-ha Itto-ryu at Yamaoka Tesshu's dojo. Another competitor was Kawasaki Zenzaburo, of the Mugai-ryu, and Hakudo, of the Shindo Munen-ryu. In the prewar days, kendo players still affiliated with various ryuha and used techniques special to their ryu even in shiai. Practice shiai included grappling, throws, and leg sweeps. Pretty rough stuff.

From the pictures in my books, Sasaburo looks like a very tough guy. Hakudo, however, has these handlebar moustache and a very wiry, thin frame. He looks like an Icabod Crane, but he was always among the top contenders. Hakudo was also known as a master iaido and jodo person. In one account I'm just checking out, it talks of a famous shiai at a Butokusai in Meiji 39, when Hakudo took on and beat a string of swordsmen from the Suio-ryu, Muto-ryu, and the Hokushin Itto-ryu, one after another. In the last match, the opponent attacked with a men uchi. Hakudo did a Munen-ryu technique; he stepped diagonally sideways and got an ippon with a yokomen, winning the match.

This does not take into account kendo competitors who flourished after WWII or before the late Meiji period. Also, I've heard tell from my teachers that Sonobe Hideo of the Jikishinkage-ryu naginata was a fearsome competitor. One teacher said he remembers seeing Sonobe sensei before the War at the Butokuden beat all comers with her naginata, and kendo men literally were scared of facing off with her.

I'm certain there are other competitors whose names I've left off the list; I'm not really a kendo person myself. But certainly, Takano Sasaburo and Nakayama Hakudo will always be at the very top of any list.

Wayne Muromoto