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kenshorin
7th July 2002, 21:46
OK I know this question has been asked before, but I was wondering if anyone can give full literal meanings for the following terms -

Shidoin
Shidoshi
Sempai
Sensei
Renshi
Kyoshi
Hanshi
Shihan
Soke

Like I said, I'm looking more for literal meanings, so although "sensei" means "teacher" I'm looking for the literal "one who comes before" or "renshi" being "one who knows" (at least thats what I've been told the literal translations are)

You see these terms being thrown around by all sorts of sokeydokeys and I was wondering what these people are literally calling themselves.

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2002, 01:06
Off the top of my head, for my school and style:

Shihan - master instructor (Gokudan and higher)
Sempai - senior student up through Nidan
Sensei - Sandan and higher
Soke - originator of style

Though quite commonly 'soke' has come to mean "self-promoted scam artist". There are actually very few real soke out there - I'd hazard a guess and say that 99% of them are just some dude who decided it was a good way to make money after getting promoted to Sandan and moving out of the locale of his old teacher.

:beer:

Tommy_P
8th July 2002, 03:48
I think sempai (or senpai) comes from when karate moved into the college universities and the word had to do with upperclassmen or "mentors". It was adapted into their karate training and a student who had been training longer (nothing to do with rank) would take a new student under his wing.....mentor him. This student would be called kohai. The sempai wouldn't be the sempai of the class...just have a single sempai/kohai relationship.

As for the rest of the titles (with the exception of soke) I can't give the literal translations but I think that the characters used to write these titles all translate to "teacher".

Some may mean teachers teacher or expert teacher etc I think but all basicly teacher.....maybe someone else can help me out here?

Tommy

ghp
8th July 2002, 04:00
Hello Kenshorin,

Here are the literal and figurative translations (from the Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary (4th edition,1974; 27th printing 1991):

[My comments in square brackets]

1. Shidoin. An insturctor; a supervisor; an advisor.
[comprised of three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; in=member. One who "points the way/guides" is a teacher.]

[1a. ~hosa. Aid; assistant; counselor; advisor -- in budo "Shidoin-hosa" means assistant instructor.]

2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]

3. Sempai (also "senpai"). A senior; a superior; an elder; a predecessor; a progenitor; an old-timer. [two kanji: sen=before; pai=? ... I don't have my kanji dictionary here :D ]

4. Sensei. Teacher. [two kanji: sen=before; sei=born. A "catch-all" word to mean politician, doctor, or *any* sort of teacher -- aerobics, fishing, calligraphy, martial art, kindergarten, high school, university .... you get the picture]

5. Renshi. Trainer. [two kanji: ren=forge; shi=gentleman/samurai. This is the first of three teaching licenses in swordsmanship. The licenses originally were used in fencing, but eventually spread to other sections within the Dai Nippon Butokukai in the 1930s. My understanding is these three terms are relatively new, ca. 1895.]]

6. Kyoshi. Teacher. [two kanji: kyo=instruct; shi=gentleman/samurai. There is an alternative -- and more used -- spelling using a different kanji for "shi=teacher"; this example means a high school teacher. When the "shi" kanji for "gentleman" is used, it indicates the middle teaching rank for fencing.]

7. Hanshi. "A fencing master of the top rank" [two kanji: han=example/model; shi=gentleman/samurai.]

8. Shihan. A teacher; a master; a preceptor; an instructor; a coach. [two kanji: shi=instruct; han=example/model. This word is not the same as "hanshi" that is reversed.]

9. Soke. "The head family (house)." [two kanji: sou=root/main ; ke=house/family. In Confucian teachings, the "main" importance within the "house" is the father. The term "Soke" implies the father/family relationship between school leader and students. This also is a relatively new term in budo -- here's Dr. Bodiford's outstanding thread http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=4521&highlight=soke.]

Regards,
Guy

kenshorin
8th July 2002, 19:52
Mr. Power -

Thanks, thats exactly what I was looking for. I knew it had been discussed in the past also, but I couldn't find the specific threads. Thanks for all the help.

Gary Dolce
8th July 2002, 20:29
Harvey,

What's a "gokudan"? Do you mean "godan" or "rokudan" or something else entirely?

Thanks.

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2002, 20:53
According to my Japanese instructor, 5th dan is gokudan. As I've also seen it as godan, I've just assumed it was "one of those things" and not worried about it.

:beer:

poryu
8th July 2002, 21:06
Hi

I was lead to believe that Hatsumi Masaaki the Soke of the Bujinkan Dojo invented this word. So right or wrong it is used to denote a teacher. It is made form three kanji

y (soil, earth, ground)
(path, way)
t (Master, teacher, expert)

we also use shidoshi-ho to denote assistant instructors

Soke also means 'head of family'
for more info regading the title soke and such check these articles out

http://koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html
http://koryu.com/library/mskoss4.html

Anders Pettersson
9th July 2002, 05:57
Originally posted by ghp
1. Shidoin. An insturctor; a supervisor; an advisor.
[comprised of three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; in=member. One who "points the way/guides" is a teacher.]

[1a. ~hosa. Aid; assistant; counselor; advisor -- in budo "Shidoin-hosa" means assistant instructor.]

2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]

Originally posted by poryu
I was lead to believe that Hatsumi Masaaki the Soke of the Bujinkan Dojo invented this word. So right or wrong it is used to denote a teacher. It is made form three kanji

y (soil, earth, ground)
(path, way)
t (Master, teacher, expert)

Hi.
I am far from as knowledgeable in Japanese as Guy, but here are some comments (and a question) anyway.
Shidoin would be written with kanji like this: w if used the characters Guy describe.
As for Shidoshi, Guy has explained Shidosha, and Shidosha would in kanji be: w

As for shidoshi, I have always thought that it was written wm, but according to Poryu it is clearly other kanji used.

In Shorinjikempo the term Shidoin are used so that is one I am familiar with, as for Shidosha that is in my dictionary explained as "leader" so that is a word of common use.
Anybody that can explain more about the term "Shidoshi", and if there are several ways to write it (in kanji)?

Maybe this thread should be in the language forum?

/Anders

poryu
9th July 2002, 06:28
Hi GUys

as for my version of Shidoshi I am using the Kanji that appear on both my Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho menkyo, these are handwritten by Hatsumi sensei.

hope this helps

ghp
9th July 2002, 23:21
Paul,

as for my version of Shidoshi I am using the Kanji that appear on both my Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho menkyo, these are handwritten by Hatsumi sensei.
The Japanese have a penchant for inventing new ways of "spelling" rather mundane words when the spirit suits them. The shidoshi that I cited is from the standard Japanese dictionary and gives the "proper" accepted way of writing the kanji. I'm not saying your teacher is wrong -- the Japanese language lends itself to puns and other machinations because the Japanese borrowed a Chinese style of writing for their own pecular language. And the many, many, many homophones for every character really makes inventing new ways of writing all the more fun. :D

Regards,
Guy

poryu
10th July 2002, 06:25
HI Guy

Tell me about it, Hatsumi is wel known for playing with Kanji to create new ways of wrting things.

I once saw three shodo he had written handed out, all said Goshin, all written differently

He also has a habit of using old Kanji that many Japanese either dont use anymore or cant read

Anders Pettersson
10th July 2002, 08:55
Originally posted by ghp
The shidoshi that I cited is from the standard Japanese dictionary and gives the "proper" accepted way of writing the kanji.
Regards,
Guy

Hi Guy,
How would you write that version of Shidoshi in kanji? I don't have any dictionary that lists it (don't really have any good kanji dictionaries) and I am always happy to learn from someone that knows.

/Anders

ghp
17th July 2002, 00:50
Hello Anders,

I'm separated from my Nelson's ... I'll access it tomorrow and give you the Nelson citation. Would that help? I have no way of posting kanji on this board. If all else fails, I could scan the kanji and send you a jpg file.

Regards,
Guy

Anders Pettersson
17th July 2002, 06:53
Originally posted by ghp
I'm separated from my Nelson's ... I'll access it tomorrow and give you the Nelson citation. Would that help?
Hi Guy.
Yes that would help, thank you for your trouble.

/Anders

ghp
17th July 2002, 17:20
Good morning, Anders!

My original quote:
2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]
First off, I seem to have made an error here. I am giving the citation for "Shidoshi", but when I explain the make-up of the kanji, I romanized it as "Shidosha".

Now I will have to go HOME and consult the Kenkyusha J-E Dictionary to see what was written!!!

However ... as far as "Shidoshi" goes, here is what Nelson's has to say on page 436 of the Second Edition, 19th printing,1985.


1904/F795 SHI finger. sa(su) point to, indicate; name, designate;....
Now, "SHI" is the 1904th kanji; the "dou" kanji is made up of 14 strokes [1904.14] , so scroll down to the 3rd entry under 14 [1904.14.3] and you'll find
shidou guidance, leadership, coaching
Next, continue scrolling down to 1904.14.7
shidousha leader
Finally, 1904.14.10
shidouin instructor, advisor, supervisor
Here are the Nelson identifiers for each kanji:

Shidou. 1904/1354
Shidousha. 1904/1354/3685
Shidouin. 1904/1354/928

Sure wish I could post the kanji for you.

Regards,
Guy

Anders Pettersson
18th July 2002, 07:52
Originally posted by ghp

My original quote:

2. Shidoshi. A leader; a guide. a director. the mentor of a group; a pilot a coach; a rudder; a mastermind. [three kanji: shi=point; do=guide; sha=person.]
First off, I seem to have made an error here. I am giving the citation for "Shidoshi", but when I explain the make-up of the kanji, I romanized it as "Shidosha".

Yes that shi/sha thing was what confused me (se my first post in this thread).


Originally posted by ghp
Here are the Nelson identifiers for each kanji:

Shidou. 1904/1354
Shidousha. 1904/1354/3685
Shidouin. 1904/1354/928

Sure wish I could post the kanji for you.

Regards,
Guy

Thanks for this Guy, it helped (I don't own a Nelson but I can find out the Nelson numbers for Kanji). This is the words that I got from my lexicon as well.

/Anders

kenshorin
18th July 2002, 19:03
Originally posted by Kenzo
To the original querry. those titles mean nothing. stick to the name your parents gave you it's the best title you can have!

I have no intention of calling myself by anything other than. I just was curious what a lot of the phonies out there are really calling themselves (see orig. query)