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Goju Man
9th July 2002, 18:42
I wonder how many Yudanshas actually train in their art? By that I don't mean the dissecting of bunkai. I mean actual physical training kicking, punching, grappling, etc. The reasom for this is I've seen some practitioners lately running around with high rank and don't train a lick. Does it mean when you reach Yudansha the training stops?

CEB
9th July 2002, 19:19
Originally posted by Goju Man
Does it mean when you reach Yudansha the training stops?

Hell no. Up here if that was the case there would be no training at all. We would just have a room full of people staring at each other.

The problem we are having is there is no mudansha. There are tons of children in the kids class. But we are not getting any adult beginners. We had a hard program. As little as 10 or 15 years ago if adult mudansha didn't hang it was no big shakes there were always new recruits to fill the ranks.

Sensei is no longer here to teach. His ranking student has taken over the program and made things easier. He even tried some advertising. Before word of mouth was our only advertising. He has a few more adults but not many. Karate just doesn't seem popular with adults the way it used to be. If it wasn't for the children it wouldn't be worth his time. The tradition here is that Yudansha do not pay for training. If it wasn't for the childern we couldn't do that anymore. In fact I don't how long that tradition will continue.

kusanku
9th July 2002, 19:22
Y'Know, Manny my friend, back in the day, shodan was when the serious training Started.Some of us, probably you among us, still think it is.
I know that I do.But us old Judoka got attitudes like that, you know, if it don't work or can't be made to work against resisting dkilled opponents, don't waste our time with it.

I do know what you mean about the inflated belt dudes, too.Mon Gosh, some these twenty year old tenth dans are a sight.

As for the guys dissecting bunkai and not training, I have heard of this phenomenon, but where I live it isn't that way, though nearby it is.

How , I want to know and I bet you do too:cool: , can anyone train any realistic techniques merely by coming up with often silly or inadequate analysis of kata?

There must be regular, steady, training, sometimes even very intense and hard training for those able to stand it, in basic movement and application of basic movement, before any kind of kata bunkai can be hoped for to produce results.

Or simply put, if you can't do basics when you need to, you won't be able to do kata. As on Japoanese kumite champion I knew of said, 'however, 'If your basics are good, your kata is good."Lot of people found that hard to understand for some reason, made perfect sense to me.

Its like saying in Judo or Jujitsu, 'If you can't make a basic waza work, how will you make a combination work?But if your basics are trained to sharp edge, then you can combine them at will.' Kata merely show manners in which basic waza may be combined to produce a result of a whole greater than the parts.In other words, compound affect.

So, each part should be mastered. And if you can't learn the throws from karate, go to Judo, if you can't learn the locks, jiujitsu, etc.But they are there in the kata shown as combination techniques against a skilled resisting opponent who will otherwise counter the basics, and mambo you.Just like champions at contest, who neutralize one another's attempts at basic moves one after another, but who get in with a subtler series or combination to produce the desired effect, kata, if and only if the basics are mastered and properly trained, can show tyhe way to similar results, but geared not for contest, where mostly it is illegal, but in self defense, where you are allowed to combine different types technique for maximum results when needed.Really, its all the same.

But- Youse Guys to which Manny was referring about, who do Kata bunkai as though it is all you need and never practice your basics and never work resisiting opponents as in sparring or randori,line up on the right, on the mat, I hope you can breakfall.:-)

Goju Man
9th July 2002, 20:04
That is very true in all arts. If your basics are not sound, you're in for a long haul. In judo it is a little fifferent than in karate. My judo instructor is over seventy years old and still trains. In judo, yudansha train all the time, and quite hard. It is in karate that I see many instructors who don't train. How can you teach a technique that you cannot perform? Yet there you have it. Instructors break out the fancy belts, impressive lineages and the like, yet if caught in a street situation, would be in serious trouble. Judo and Jiu Jitsu are different in that, to have rank you have to demonstrate it. Many karate instructors have obtained rank through the mail and have never even seen their supposed instructors.

Steven Malanosk
9th July 2002, 20:04
Hi Manny,

The days of:

Who can break the makiwara, or quit punching before the other guy,

The ever popular name that kick challenge,

Speed punching race to the maki or partners stomach,

Marathon pushup contests,

Kotekitai marathon,

Round robin till ya drop,

Seem to be only memories as the individual accepts his premature self imposed ShuHaRi.

Although proper training makes it easier for us as we age, cerebral practitioners who forego the actual ShuGyo, are barking up a vacant tree.

Kata is the literacy, Fighting is the industry.

CEB
9th July 2002, 20:12
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk


Kata is the literacy, Fighting is the industry.

That is cool. Did you come up with that one? It sounds like a piece of wisdom that your teacher would say. I'm being sincere.

Respectfully
Ed Boyd

Steven Malanosk
9th July 2002, 20:25
Bingo! Mr. Boyd,

It was a direct quote from his thesis.

Goju Man
9th July 2002, 20:33
Hey Steve. I was up in Sarasota a couple of weeks ago and thought about you while passing the Ft. Meyers sign.:) I'll drop by one day when I have some more time. Yes, those good old days are long gone except in a few dojo. Mainly because that type of dedication isn't part of todays fabric. Dojos that operate that way today are probably not moneymakers. The students don't want to train. Training the mind IS very important but if the body and its tools are neglected, the knolege is useless.

Speed punching race to the maki or partners stomach,

Round robin till ya drop,
You must have been in my dojo!:D

stencil
9th July 2002, 22:46
We train very hard in my dojo. We always start with a good 40-50 minutes of pure workout warmups, including these brutal pushups that are half yoga, situps of all types, shutos until your shoulders are screaming, etc.

It's then followed up with "round the room exercises" in which we train in basic techniques until we drop - punches/blocks without stopping included.

We often to something called "swimming" in which one has to drag his body across the floor using arms only. If you complain about your gi getting dirty you start over.

Doing throws and floor techniques and rolls and the like are the EASY nights.

-Joshua Fruhlinger

Goju Man
10th July 2002, 01:37
Good old fashioned training.

We often to something called "swimming" in which one has to drag his body across the floor using arms only. If you complain about your gi getting dirty you start over. Sounds like a grappling school?

Steven Malanosk
10th July 2002, 02:41
Funny story:

At one of my previous locations, I was running the class through "Swimming," and made a wize crack, that "this is how we clean the mat." One of the more pain in the ars mother's that was watching class, later made a comment to the effect of not appreciating her son, being used to clean the mat, and that she would have to wash the gi extra because of it! :laugh:

Goju Man
10th July 2002, 11:50
That's why our mat was so clean! Two sets of "swimming" and two sets of "shrimping", it's no wonder the mat is always clean!:D
But that's what makes the difference in some grappling schoolsa. The warm ups are much more intense than some of these karate schools. It's funny though, that some of these instructors would have you do things they never did! (never mind doing them now)

kenshorin
10th July 2002, 17:30
Originally posted by kusanku

As for the guys dissecting bunkai and not training, I have heard of this phenomenon, but where I live it isn't that way, though nearby it is.


I have seen this phenomenon first hand. Its been growing in my dojo (the one I train in, not the one I teach) like a cancer. It all started when one of our yudansha went and started doing all the Dillman crap. He brought that whole bogus way of training in kyusho while not maintaining basics into the dojo. He got my instructor into it (recently my instructor has been getting lazier and lazier with his own training / teaching) and from there it started hitting all the other yudansha who are lead to believe this is the "way". Its crap. Me and a few others are staunch basics guys, but its a losing battle. The people who aren't into the training and into the whole rank / external motivations seem to like this lazy training just fine. Don't worry, I'm in the process of "adjusting" my training (a nice way of saying I'm looking for another dojo :D ) I'll tell ya, its a weird situation when you are in the minority for wanting to actually train in your class, and when you feel funny during free practice and you're the only one doing anything! I get more of a workout teaching than I do from "training"... sucks ass.

Funny story... we did this little board breaking exhibition recently, and the same guy from above (Mr. Kyusho) couldn't break a single suspended board with a straight punch! This guy is also the same guy who has a billion and one excuses when his miracle kyusho doesn't work. I guess the excuse here is, the board didn't have any pressure points? :laugh:

Daruma
10th July 2002, 19:20
Pain, ah the pain,

it must be working though,

When I started training here in April this year I weighed in at 113kg today I weigh in at 96kg, hows that for a weight loss plan, 17kg in less than 4 months.

I will never forget the first two weeks.....

stencil
10th July 2002, 21:26
Sounds like a grappling school?

It's a traditional Goju Ryu class. Shorei-kan.

Speaking of workouts, I'm in PAIN today from last night's class. We didn't even do katas or bunkais last night (which is unusual, actually).

We did, however, do an obscene amount of pushups, had to hold ourselves up with just our knuckles (the sensei came around after to check that only our index and middle knuckles were white). We then did some punch/block/counter techniques over and over again until we were out of breath (or at least I was...hehe). Included a chest punch/block in sanchin dachi, down punch/block in shiko dachi, and then a grab at the end of that block with a counter.

THEN we did some evasion/counter techniques. This involved ducking from a punch, turning and going down into a tokato geri (backwards kick), rolling away from the attacker, jumping up to face the approaching attacker, blocking, and countering.

I'm burning, but feeling good, and I'm glad that I'm actually getting a workout at the dojo rather than "analyzing" bunkais. Sounds pretty easy. Are all those students little fatties?

-Joshua Fruhlinger

kusanku
10th July 2002, 22:50
Originally posted by kenshorin
[B]

I have seen this phenomenon first hand. Its been growing in my dojo (the one I train in, not the one I teach) like a cancer. It all started when one of our yudansha went and started doing all the Dillman crap. He brought that whole bogus way of training in kyusho while not maintaining basics into the dojo. He got my instructor into it (recently my instructor has been getting lazier and lazier with his own training / teaching) and from there it started hitting all the other yudansha who are lead to believe this is the "way". Its crap. Me and a few others are staunch basics guys, but its a losing battle. The people who aren't into the training and into the whole rank / external motivations seem to like this lazy training just fine.

Wow, Ken- I am sure sorry to hear of this.I have seen some these guys talk and seen some their vids and so forth.Also been to a couple their dojo.No thanks.

Karate begins and ends with basics it is said, and well said I think and believe.

You gotta 'eat bitter' to get good.This means basics, basics, basics.
As Manny mentions Judo and JJ and other grappling arts do lots more calisthenics, forty five minutes was our average in Judo.In Karate though, we do thousands of reps of basics per night, and if one did a kata workout, thirty kata or thrity reps of one kata was average, thats a lot of punches, blocks , steps and kicks.Usually after about three thousand or so basics.

After this ig you want to practice tuite or kyusho jutsu, I recommend the real kind, not the ones you refer to above.:D The real ones work, strangely enogh, just exactly as well as do your basics .Perhaps this is why they are referred to as advanbced techniques, because they are dependent on how well you have your basics down(;mastered"), and no better.In other words, a green belt level practitioner can't do some advanced waza on a black belt level practitioner, assuming those levels to have meaning as they once did.


Don't worry, I'm in the process of "adjusting" my training (a nice way of saying I'm looking for another dojo :D )

I wholeheartedly approve this course of action, styles notwithstanding, find the best and most thorough training that you can.



I'll tell ya, its a weird situation when you are in the minority for wanting to actually train in your class, and when you feel funny during free practice and you're the only one doing anything! I get more of a workout teaching than I do from "training".

It is sad all right.


Funny story... we did this little board breaking exhibition recently, and the same guy from above (Mr. Kyusho) couldn't break a single suspended board with a straight punch!

This despite the fact that for true atemi to kyusho, you need not only precision but shapr striking power such as could easily break such a board.In other words, this bird can't punch.Way I was taught, if you can't punch, better quit karate, as punching is main technique. That'd be like a judo guy not being able to throw, jj guy not doing matwork, Muay Thai guy can't kick or elbow.Either find better teacher, train better and harder or quit.Guy ever gets jumped on, hope he never does, bad deal for him, ne?



This guy is also the same guy who has a billion and one excuses when his miracle kyusho doesn't work.

If it don't work, at least on someone who is able yto feel pain and not everyone does, then it ain't real.My philosophy here is, hit them so hard they fall down or fly back, that way if it don't hurt 'em, you got time and space to run away.In real practice this has worked well for me.And for others as well.I heartily commend this particular philosophy to all devotees of magic kyusho.

{/quote]I guess the excuse here is, the board didn't have any pressure points? :laugh::D :D[/quote]

But they Do, Ken- the pressure point on a board is where to focus your power so the board actually breaks.:DThis is a jhoke of course, but it makes a point-kyusho are relatvely vulnerable points, areas and zones, angles, joints and etc., onb the human body where most people will be affected if hit with a full powered karate technique.

If you don't practice full powereed karate, these areas may or may not produce any measurable effect.

As a person who has broken more than a few boards by the way:D, I can assure everyone that, contrary to Bolo Yeung in Enter the Dragon, boards sometimes Do Hit Back!Who'd have thought knuckles would be pressure points?:-)

Hope you find a good school, Ken! Best of luck.

Goju Man
11th July 2002, 02:25
You know that I would bet my good old fashioned basics then the Dillmania method anytime. None of the great Karate guys I know of made it big with that stuff. The throat, eyes, and other well known area are good targets. But when you start with the meridian stuff, order of applications and what not, you're going to need an ER.:D

That's the one thing I think all the fighting arts have in common. It's always the basic techniques that win tournaments, fights, etc.
That and good old body conditioning. Be in shape boys. That way, if you can't finish the guy off, you can haul a__. :D

Steven Malanosk
11th July 2002, 02:33
ShoreiKan ehh?

The marathon Daruma Taiso, which is often the signature of the intense Toguchi style training, is enough to scare many of the martial arts armchair athletes out of the dojo.

Who's the teacher?

kusanku
11th July 2002, 02:48
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]You know that I would bet my good old fashioned basics then the Dillmania method anytime.

Always back the basics and conditioning.You won't lose many bets that way.


None of the great Karate guys I know of made it big with that stuff.

Usually, the big names and the real champs and the fighters, have maybe two, three, maybe four techniques, tops, that they always score with.That's Judo and karate, alike.I had fibe really good teachers, and learned really, three techniques from one and two from another, one from each of the others, that were main bread and butter things, in karate.Two of the moves were variants of the others. Sure, I learned lots of kata and so on, and bunkai a real way, which simply means to break down the kata movements into realistic applications or chunks that you can practice as combination techniques.Kyusho, that's where you sort of aim. Bottom line, aim for the center line and the two lines down from the eyes, you'll hit something.Third line goes down from the neck thru the ribs and inner thighs.Theres the lines, points were where on those lines it hurts most.Control the center of the opponent, Choki Motobu said.That's the real secret as far as I know.


The throat, eyes, and other well known area are good targets.

Yes.

[/quote] But when you start with the meridian stuff, order of applications and what not, you're going to need an ER.:D[/quote]

Who, in a real fight, has time to think about all that stuff? Isn't that for acupuncture treatments anyway?


That's the one thing I think all the fighting arts have in common. It's always the basic techniques that win tournaments, fights, etc.

Every single time.What advanced means to me, is a subtle or compound combination used when you screw up your first attempt or to distract attacker from his second if he screws up his first. Like for instance, he comes with a punch and you actually get inside and block or strike his arm,you kick his groin to distract him from your counterpunch to center of his head.Combination. Kyusho? You Betcha!:-)
Three point combo, not like Diill Waza at all.Arm hit stops his hook from taking your head off, groin kick distractsd but good, punch hopefully finishes the job, and be ready to go away fast if it don't.


That and good old body conditioning. Be in shape boys. That way, if you can't finish the guy off, you can haul a__. :D

Every time.:D

Harry Cook
11th July 2002, 11:48
As far as I am concerned if you are not training then you should not be instructing. Being willing to fight is a mind set rather than simply possessing physical skills and the only real way to maintain the correct mind set/fighting spirit is by hard training. I think well drilled basics developed by hitting things such as makiwara, bags, pads, training partners etc (and taking some good digs) suffused by a strong fighting spirit is the way to go. Dwelling on vital points etc can be dangerous: I tend to follow the advice of Kase sensei who said that the whole body is a vital point: wherever you hit your opponent/enemy should hurt him.
I saw an interesting example of fighting spirit last night when I was a boxing match between Audley Harrison and Dominic Negus. Negus went down on his knees but kept his hands off the floor: Harrison then punched him in the head. This may have been technically within the rules but negus was so incensed that he instantly rose to his feet, rushed across the ring and tried to nut (headbutt) Harrison. Negus actually managed to land his head but harrison was moving away from the impact and little damage was done. What I found interesting was
1. the anger caused by what Negus clearly felt was a cheap shot overoad his feelings of tiredness and disorientation caused by Harrison's punches and allowed him to get up and fight
2. Negus more or less abandoned his boxing skills and went into actual fighting mode, attempting to use a technique not allowed in professional boxing.
These are useful lessons for any karateka to learn.
Yours,
Harry Cook

stencil
11th July 2002, 17:40
ShoreiKan ehh? The marathon Daruma Taiso, which is often the signature of the intense Toguchi style training, is enough to scare many of the martial arts armchair athletes out of the dojo. Who's the teacher?


I train under Sensei Charles Bentz and Shihan Scott Lenzi. Shihan will be teaching class tonight, and I'm already preparing and stretching for what is sure to be an epic workout. It's an honor to work with him, but he doesn't mess around.

Yes, Daruma Taiso. Every class. Sensei and the instructor-level black belt work out with us. If we're not sweating and hurting and stretched out by the time we have the honor of working on kata, we weren't at class for the first hour. You should see the workouts on night in which someone is going to be graded.

But, in my beginner's opinion, that's how it's always been, that's how it should be, and that's just karate. I'm really surprised to find that not everyone gets a good workout in the dojo.

-Joshua Fruhlinger

kenshorin
11th July 2002, 18:34
Originally posted by kusanku

Wow, Ken- I am sure sorry to hear of this.I have seen some these guys talk and seen some their vids and so forth.Also been to a couple their dojo.No thanks.


No kidding. Its awful. I wasn't trying to bash tuite / kyusho in my original post, just the way its done. The dojo used to be very good, but it was heavily influenced by my old association who had strict methods about how stuff should be done. Since we left, the dojo has gone way downhill into lazyland. All talk, no action. Sux.

Believe me, I know all about the stuff that you posted. I am one of the "old school" guys at the dojo who remembers. I find practicing on my own or with a few other "old schoolers" much more productive than the sit around and talk classes we have a lot. A lot of our classes have become marketing classes too, so we can make the dojo more money. Its really bad because a lot of new students at this dojo don't realize they're getting poor training. I have been cutting back on my training there, opting instead to teach my own students and train elsewhere.

I've seen this not only at my dojo, but others as well. It is sad, beacuse I have seen many good dojo go this way.

Goju Man
11th July 2002, 23:43
Harry, you've hit that one right on the head. How can you teach if you don't train? It's that mysticism again that people who don't know think that he's got rank, he must be a bad ash. The higher rank you prtray, the badder you must be. That point about fighting spirit is so strong, that it's portrayed in many movies ala Rocky. I've seen this many times during fighting classes and in the ring. An inferior opponent, (iether in size or experience) come alive after a hard shot and bring it on. How do you teach that? That's why a lot of hardcore dojos aren't big moneymakers. Not everyone wants to get down and dirty.

kusanku
12th July 2002, 02:00
Harry, Manny, Ken-
Good stuff all. I don't know any other way to teach a class than to do the workout with the students.As for training, that's what karate is.Its training that gives any advantage there is to be had in any situation, excepting sheer luck, good on your part of=r bad on the opponent's.

Fighting mindset?Without one, it ain't karate, its dancercize.:D

Good points about using contact in training, equipment, etc. I favor use of such things, what point hitting air only if you don't know what you will do for real?You gotta take it, and give it, to be able to do it.

Vital points etc.In Okinawan Kenpo, one of the arts where tuite, kyusho and kata apps are taught, the sparring is contact with bogu armor and soemtimes without, makiwara and bag work are king, and if you can't do a technique with full power and speed into solid objects you are considered not to know it at all.The self defense waza taught at basic to shodan level all depend on gross motor skills, form power and speed into targets you can't miss, called shotgun waza by some.

Sparring strategy consists in freight train waza.Later tai sabaki is taught, but first, straight in and fight, for training spirit.Its the karate version of judo, as you know exactly what you can and cannot do for real before it ever happens.Drills involve standing six inches from opponent and defend counter attack, etc.Hard, fast and precise enough to get the job done. Later, much later, at advanced levels, other skills are shown, involving advanced usage of basic waza.

I find it a good approach, it originally wasn't a style, but a way of practicing Okinawan karate that was to hearken back to the prewar training.

As far as what happens in a fight as disticnt from sparring, truer words were never spoke.Everything goes out the window except what will really be most effective.One thing I did, when beginning Okinawan Kenpo training lo those many years ago, was get some extra bag time, and work elbows and knees every possible way, for self defense training.The techniques were tasught but not emphasized in the dojo, but I realized that for close in work, elbows and knees were the berries.:-)

As to the head butt, a dangerous attack, one needs to work defenses against it such as slipping and hitting with palm, , elbow into oncoming chest, and slip and grab and throw.Extremely dangerous technique, as is the shoulder strike from Taichi and the hip strike from kungfu systems.These can , like a headbutt attack, catch you by surprise big time.And when you get hit with one, as with headbutt or the nut, you tend to go down and not get back up.

The leg takedowns are also something to watch out for, as suplexes and tackles as well.The Okinawan Kenpo approach was to defend against all habitual attacks, and to do this, we had to practice the attacks as well.So as to be realistic.

One of the more dangerous types of attack, not usually seen in the west these days, is a Judo attack. Any good skilled throwing atack leaves you one second or less, to respond, or you can be thrown.A good fighter who knows these will usually initiate with a punch or kick to distract, then move in, lock on and whammo.You feel someone grab you, hit them hard and now.Also drop into a stable stance as you do, then back out of it, as this can block a judo throw.

I know this to be true as , also being a bit of a judoka, I have on mats, many times demonstrated this fact to karate yudansha unaware of this potential danger.Only ones able to stop these were also judo players.A fact to ponder.In seminars I gave a decade ago and more, I used to tell people, 'Learn Judo or be forever vulnerable!'

Yet judoka unaware of karate techniques, though most in fact are so aware, may also be unable because unpracticed in stopping good karate attacks.Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Goju Man
13th July 2002, 01:06
A fact to ponder.In seminars I gave a decade ago and more, I used to tell people, 'Learn Judo or be forever vulnerable!'
John, that's why I use the phrase "it's all good" because you need to know about all the other fighting styles in order to defend them or attack them. (I know I know, karate for defense only) But sometimes, a good offense is the best defense. You can practise some throws or groundwork in a karate dojo, but if you really want to learn it, seek out those who do it best. Many strikers under estimate how good judo is. In fact, many grapplers,(wrestlers and some bjj) under estimate how powerful a good throwing technique is. Our school competed in a NAGA (North American Grappling Association) tournament last year and one of our guys is an excellent judoka from Cuba. When he clinched with the wrestler, he underhooked the arms and performed a magnificent harai goshi. We have the picture with the guys legs up in the air. :D In the street, THAT particular throw would have ended it. Doesn't mean that it will always happen but it can a lot of times.

kusanku
14th July 2002, 06:25
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]
John, that's why I use the phrase "it's all good" because you need to know about all the other fighting styles in order to defend them or attack them.

That is for true.


(I know I know, karate for defense only)

Well, yes, in theory, karate ni sente nashi and all that, but I think that is realized more in the absence than in the practice.:DI mean, if you are always able to block, lock, counter, that's great, but lots of times, you maybe gotta whale.And that's when, its time to hit 'n' kick and such like.:D


But sometimes, a good offense is the best defense.

Indeed it is, indeeed it is, sen no sen etc.


You can practise some throws or groundwork in a karate dojo, but if you really want to learn it, seek out those who do it best.

Yes, anfd no one throws better than the Judo folks.Anywhere.


Many strikers under estimate how good judo is.

Indeed they do, I often count on this in fact.:DRarely was I disappointed, but once, and I will tell on myself later.


In fact, many grapplers,(wrestlers and some bjj) under estimate how powerful a good throwing technique is.

Yes, but they only make such a mistake once, in my experience, then they wise up and quick.Especially the wrestlers, who tend to wind up in Judo dojo the next day, and get very good very fast, and then give everyone Hell on the mat.One in particular, guy named Greg Archer,he'd studied with Dan Gable among others, who took Judo, I threw him good at first, but when he caught on, Whooooo Eeee!Done got our tails kicked right well, that time.



Our school competed in a NAGA (North American Grappling Association) tournament last year and one of our guys is an excellent judoka from Cuba. When he clinched with the wrestler, he underhooked the arms and performed a magnificent harai goshi. We have the picture with the guys legs up in the air. :D In the street, THAT particular throw would have ended it. Doesn't mean that it will always happen but it can a lot of times.

I always use that one as an example, one of my tokui waza as well.When you spin butt over teakettle three sixty thru the air and land on your back, from a good harai goshi,I would say the fight, she is well, and truly, over.Now, my judo skills , got to about ikkyu level, and no further, but in the kingdom of ther unaware, the brown belt judoka can do whatever he wants to.Just hope you don't wind up with some Olympic Judo guy.

General score of strikers against judoka, not too good, especially if they underestimate and let them get in range.Once they lock on, man, its gonna be over fast.

Not saying a striker can't get 'em. just saying, I've never seen it done.Guys would be whipping on me in karate kumite, and we would sometimes be on a mat, and I'd ask them,so hows about ading a little judo to the mix? They'd say OK, and they could fall and so on, and it was pitiful. it really was, one sweep and down they would go.

One time I forgot the guy I was sparring was in addition to black belt in karate, sandan in Judo, and as I came in, he mildly commented, 'You're not gonna throw me( I never could in randori) and I said, Oh, right, and backed away.Kick kick, punch punch, I won sparring match, as he said, I was more skilled in karate than he was.But we both knew in a real one, he'd have had me for breakfast.I was surprised I won the match at all, but I was better in karate. He was better in Judo. I'd have traded.Good thing he reminded me in time, but we were all pretty good fellas, no ego going on there.We just loved the arts, no one wanted to hurt anyone.

Incidentally, karate is mostly defense, judo is mostly attack.Interesting observation.

Goju Man
28th July 2002, 17:38
Anybody catch the Butterbean vs Holmes last night? It's funny that a fifty two year old man can still go ten rounds with a thirty two year old man. Good for Holmes, bad for the Bean. The Bean is exposed for what he is, a circus show. But the point as relating to this thread is how many martial artists 10 or 20 years younger that don't train anymore. Knoledge without training? I think I'd rather have the training.

kusanku
28th July 2002, 18:08
Why not have both?Larry Holmes does.:-)

Regards