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Walt Harms
9th July 2002, 22:02
Just a question for anyone who's interested.
What is the augmented forearm block in hheian yodan
used for? Specifically the last 3, back down the line?
I've been trying to come up with a good answer for
many years.

Walt Harms:(

gmanry
10th July 2002, 01:13
Here is one sequence that is quite nasty.

First, although the blocks are done in a straight line, it is important to examine them in a zig zags going forward, zig left then zag right and so on.

The first is a suppression of a left punch from your opponent. The augmenting arm slips over to grab the hair and the left blocking arm grabs the punching sleeve. You then step to the next angle and this action places you into the augmented position (not a block); the assertion of the "block" puts stress on your opponent's neck and bows them over backward. Your opponents noggin, back or neck is now in place for a knee strike hidden in the final left step. The blocking power on the third movement is then used to cast or throw your stunned (if he is lucky) opponent off and away in a manner that prevents good ukemi. Use the front of the thigh or hip of the left leg to create the fulcrum for power in this throw. It is not pretty or fancy, it leaves the opponent in a crupled heap.

This combination is pretty brutal and devastating to the opponent on three different levels.

I hope this helps.

Goju Man
10th July 2002, 02:41
This is a good interpretation to get you looking in another direction. One interpretation of an augmented block is actually a block and simultaneous strike. The strike can be interpreted with either hand. The trick is if the "blocking" hand becomes the striking hand, what kind of block is the other doing? This is where your interpretation takes over.

gmanry
10th July 2002, 06:28
Manny,

Good post, I have to agree with you. In the interpretation I posted, the standard, very strong augmented block is pretty useless past the first move, and even that has to be pretty fluid.

Although I do use the first left hand as the block/check. You could interpret it as a suppression and strike, which is what I think you are hinting at.

To really get the feel of what I was writing about, it hardly looks like three steps at all and comes on very fast, creating the disconcerting experience of your opponent. It really is a mauling, and I think (cause I never have actually done this to anyone with true intention) might really put somebody in the hospital or worse (neck trauma). I have used the first part and the last part in sparring and kumite type scenarios, but putting them together is pretty dangerous.

The crawling and exchanging nature of the augmented block is one that I have been pretty interested in the last couple of years. Like the chudan-gedan uke of Pinan San Dan, I think it is a maneuver that is rarely understood in any meaningful fashion.

Walt Harms
10th July 2002, 18:31
Glenn,

Re your input, as it happens I watched a video tape on Okinawan Te last night. The Tape suggested the same answer, a block/strike. The augmented block has always been difficult for me to fully understand. The tape by tsunami was very interesting the "instructor" was Oshishiro sensei.

Walt Harms

Walt Harms
10th July 2002, 19:31
Glenn,

Re your input, as it happens I watched a video tape on Okinawan Te last night. The Tape suggested the same answer, a block/strike. The augmented block has always been difficult for me to fully understand. The tape by tsunami was very interesting the "instructor" was Oshishiro sensei.

Walt Harms

gmanry
10th July 2002, 20:25
Another direction to look in for the augmented block is a throw.

In my example, I have a combination of blocks, capture/strikes, and throws. This is only one example and illustrates a "three" (two and a half really) move sequence to deal with only one opponent (most likely scenario I think for this part of the kata).

I keep meaning to by the tape by Oshiro sensei, but other priorities have been in the way.

Tommy_P
11th July 2002, 02:11
Originally posted by Walt Harms
Glenn,

Re your input, as it happens I watched a video tape on Okinawan Te last night. The Tape suggested the same answer, a block/strike. The augmented block has always been difficult for me to fully understand. The tape by tsunami was very interesting the "instructor" was Oshishiro sensei.

Walt Harms


Do you mean Toshihiro Oshiro? If so which tape is that if you don't mind? Is that Uchinadi volume one?
Thanks
Tommy

Walt Harms
11th July 2002, 15:38
Yes, Toshihiro Oshiro, the actual name of the tape from Tsunami is
Uchinadi Vol 1. I found this tape to be very interesting/insightful.

Walt Harms

Tommy_P
11th July 2002, 15:52
Thanks,

Fortunately I have had the chance to train with Oshiro sensei many times in the 80's.

Unfortunately that was it!:D It was primarily weapons but sometimes in private moments or out to dinner or something he would let loose tiny tidbits of empty hand bunkai. I wish I could have trained with him more, he has allot of knowledge stored away in his head.

Thanks again

Tommy

Michael Clarke
17th July 2002, 14:35
Good thread.
If I may make so bold as to suggest that the three steps and blocks that formed the original question, as with any other part of any other kata, is what ever the karateka wants them to be. Or should I say, what ever their ability and understanding of the principles found in their system lets them be.
What I'm saying is this, the idea that a particular move in a kata has to be applied as practiced in thin air, is (in my view) an incorrect understanding of what kata are there for.
The are there to allow us to get a 'feel' for certain principles. This is why we train in them in thin air and with a partner.
My late sensei told me once that the kata was there to 'hide' the bunkai!
I sometimes teach the bunkai first to students, and only after they have found some ability to make things work, do I teach them the kata. I tell them that the kata is a way of being able to train for the feeling of their karate when they don't have a partner to work out with.
To me, each kata is talking about certain principles and ideas, and it is up to me to find out what the kata are saying. As each year passes, I find I have learnt to listen better, and so learn more from the same movements I've done for years.
On Okinawa, I was once told that if I did my kata well, I would be able to hear the old masters speaking to me, and I would come to 'understand' what they understood.
Sometimes I think I get a whisper?
Regardless, We all need to keep in mind the old maxim: Kyu do Mu Gen.
(Researching the Way is Endless).
All the best.
Mike Clarke

kusanku
17th July 2002, 19:48
I liked Manny's bunkai, 'cause its the same as mine, and I guess as Oshiro's as well.Surpise!

Of course, any interpretation you can make work, is a good one. But here's why I like the block strike one.

The ready position of Okinawan karate styles tends to often be the morote chudan kamae, as it protects mid level with rear arm over ribs, front arm ready to block or strike and so is rear.Can go to any level, down, middle or up.

Both Shorin and Goju use this as a kamae for fighting.It can deal with kicks or punches with either arm.

Now, that rear fist right at the elbow there, is known in Chinese kungfu such as Taiji, as 'Fist Under Elbow, ', or 'Beware of Fist under Elbow, ', because the short under punch or uppercut shot from there is almost invisiblke close in, and often hits target, ie stomach area, before opponent knows its been thrown.

So the middle block is combined wirth simultaneous punch from under the elbow, application or bunkai one.

Now, Manny asked the question, if you switch functions of the arms, what is the rear hand block?Well, it can be a crossing parry or a grab of a wrist, from under, and the front arm or hand becomes , say, a backfist strike, down onto a target or up into one, depending.

The crossing parry would be a hammerfist chudan inside block.

Now, here's even more about this one.Depending on how you deploy this technique, it can be an arm cross guard and then a double strike, or simply a double strike moving in, rear hand hammer fist and front hand uppercut or backfist, or it can be a defense against a wrist grab or what then as you step in becomes the rear hand, and the front smacks them.

Or, it can be a two hand swinging back parry as you step in and double strike or block strike or strike block, depending on the timing you use. The block strike is as Manny said, the strike Block is if you hit first with rear hand and then block with front, or hit first with backfist with front hand and block second with rear hammerfist, thus setting up you second as a strtike strike or strike block, and so into your third, and so on.

Your double arm swing back can hit the inside of the forearm and wrist of a swing or punch, and thus mess up the rhythm of the opponents combination allowing you to come inside and start your won series with the so called double blocks.

Now, that's what I'm talkin' about, as bunkai, to break down or analyze, bunkai suru.

Note that in the analysis I made no mention of points or even targets to attack with any of these. That is because, in a real situation, there isn't time or opportunity to pick your targets like that. What you hit is targets of opportunity. This means, block or strike into the arms from inside or outside, hit ribs, xiphoid process, stomach, jaw, whatever you can reach.If you do it right, it gets the job done.

One more thing I haven't mentioned is that the timing with which you do these can change, so the rear hand can punch under first then the front arm hits, or vice versa, or even the rear arm can sneakily exptend into a full corkscrew punch and retract like in Seisan, so you can throw either one or two fast punches before you backfist, or you can backfist or block first with front arm, and throw one or two fast jabs or snaps with rear hand as you slide step into opponent.

Also, be prepared as you close in to move the front or rear hands into a high guard, as you may need to protect your ownb face and head and neck from attack.

In good bunkai such as being discussed, little things mean a lot.I don't subscribe to the school that says kata bunkai are done exactly as in kata, either, so three timers means to me, this can be done on both sides and is a really useful move or series of moives, play with it and see what you can do.

The fact that you do it moving forward, means to me, you can also do this moving backwards, in other words guard and punch as you get on the bicycle backing up.You could also go to any angle in or out and use this.If you vary the timing, you can hit a mess of times and ways and confuse opponent.

Of course, this isn't a very mysterious aplication, but usually the best ones aren't.Also, sometimes a block is a block, a punch is a punch.:D

This move works well for someone in good shape that throws a lot of punches with guard up, and doesn't get arm weary. Drop either arm and you may get nailed, I hasten to add.

Take Care

kusanku
17th July 2002, 19:52
I shgould also mention that this move exist in Ngo Cho Kuen( Five Ancestors) Kung Fu, and is there called a Double Uppercut. Not much mystery in some of the Chinese arts.

Yes, Mike, I too hear the Okinawan masters whisper to me as I do kata.'Keep your guard up, stupid, this is for fighting, one whispers, and the other says, Now smack him good!'

Those guys it seems to me, were very pragmatic and not all that mystical.:D

gmanry
18th July 2002, 02:53
Good posts.

The exchanging nature of the morote movement is really important, I agree.

My particular example is just what I start people off with because it flows through all three in the kata (using either side) and it is brutal, which generally gets the students to shut up and pay attention.

The ability for the rear hand to slip under or over is crucial to the flow of these techniques. Also, in the way I was taught, the blading of the shoulders as opposed to keeping them square in some schools, lends to a "hidden" and better guarded feel of this technique.

This requires a counter rythm of the hips, shoulders and spine when doing the formal movement, and this is where the changes in timing are alluded to for us.

Good thread, we need more threads like this one.

Genkidokan
20th July 2002, 03:51
Greetings to all:

The question that Walt Harms has asked is the timeless “what the heck is this for?”

This is a question that is not just asked by only the North American Karate stylists but even the European, Japanese, and yes, even the Okinawan Karate stylists as well.

One has to remember that the Okinawan’s while they are the originators of the art of Karate-do, they got their information from somewhere. Checking any Karate styles history you will see that Karate was influenced by the limited amount of Gung Fu that the Chinese would teach them.

It is quite hilarious that many today, still feel that the Okinawan’s or even the Japanese know all the answers. Those that don’t are those that are following the Pressure point Kings to add some depth to their Karate. Or perhaps it is Jiu-Jitsu, or Aikido, or any other art, where cross training gives you more meat for your sandwich.

I am not trying to suggest that this is wrong or foolish, but to perhaps suggest something to those with the fresh-aired, open mind, that will step out of the box, and begin to look at things from a different perspective.

As long as the martial artist, regardless of style, whether it is Karate, Gung Fu, Aikido, or even Arnis, looks at techniques as being the answers, they will fail in all their pursuits to understand movement and motion.

What I mean by this is that as long as you are trying to come up with applications to a Gedan-uke (if you are a Karate-ka), then you will always be missing the point of the technique, or form. To ask yourself, “What are the augmented blocks in Heian (Pinan) Yondan for, then you are already using a form of prejudice that will close your mind and not allow room for movement and growth.

What you need, in order to begin a new journey into your particular martial arts style, is to first to studiously investigate the essence of your art. If you are an Aikido stylist, then your essence is very spiritual. Morihei Ueshiba once said that Aikido is some attained and not practiced.

If you study Goju-ryu then your essence is about change and you would be best suited to study the Taiji or Ba Gua symbols. If you are Shorin-ryu/Shotokan, then you must investigate what the essence of that style is.

Once you understand the essence of your style, then the physical, psychological and spiritual dimensions will unfold before your eyes, and you would be able to take the movement from the Pinan kata and recreate it to teach Aikido, Arnis, Tai Chi, Kenpo or whatever.

Once you have reached this point, the question is not “what is this for” but rather “what can I create today!?!”

Best to you in the arts,

Shifu Jason Ward

kusanku
21st July 2002, 06:23
And what, in your estimation, is the essence of Shorin ryu from whence come the Pinan kata, which contain the morote uke, and which the Okinawans do indeed know something about, but which indeed does come from Chinese styles?:D

Dozo Onegaishimasu, Shr Fu.:nw:

Khahan
22nd July 2002, 13:35
As long as the martial artist, regardless of style, whether it is Karate, Gung Fu, Aikido, or even Arnis, looks at techniques as being the answers, they will fail in all their pursuits to understand movement and motion.

Genkidokan,
I'm certainly not going to say you are wrong about this. I'm at a point in my training where this is starting to sink in and I'm beginning to see the bigger picture.
But at the same time, nobody told me this was my goal (or a goal) in kata and then I just magically knew it. It was a journey to get to this point in my training and it will continue to be a journey to go beyond this point in my training.
Its the same for nearly everyone. Part of that journey is learning the kata, applying technique, finding 'hidden' technique etc.
You can't tell a runner to complete his marathon on his first step.
You can't expect a martial artist to complete a journey to enlightment or understanding on his first day.

Genkidokan
22nd July 2002, 14:47
Greg:

You are absolutely right when you said that nobody told you this is your goal. I studied Okinawan Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu for many years, and none of this was ever mentioned, neither by the North American “Masters” or the Okinawan/Japanese “Grandmasters”!

I began studying other arts in order to find what was missing. I spoke with Instructors, Masters, and Grandmasters, and none of them could help me. I studied Jiu-jitsu, Ryukyu Kempo, American Kenpo, Shotokan, Shorin-ryu, Goju-ryu, Wing Chun, JKD, Shorinji-Ryu and more. I learned as much as was offered from these systems, and even earned higher rank in them. The rank was nice but the knowledge was lacking.

Then not too long ago, I met an individual who could do all that I spoke of in my earlier post. This gentleman could take any movement from any basic technique, any form or with any weapon, and recreate any art he wished. To see martial arts at this level is very disturbing, confusing, and shocking. However, when you are able to accomplish these things yourself, is a wonderful, exciting experience.

Much to my amazement this man that I am talking is not about money or politics, but rather he is more interested in getting the message across. For those interested, his name is Professor Mark Bober, and you can get further information from him at his website: www.shenlungchuan.cjb.net

The one thing I would like to mention or comment on is where you mentioned that this is a journey. Yes it certainly is a journey, and a marathon at that. The one thing you should consider is this: Do you want to wait 50 years to possibly be able to have such an understanding? Or would you want to be able to do it in 5 minutes? I am not joking or being smart about that. My first 5 minutes in Shen Lung Chuan taught me more, than 20 years in the martial arts. One of my friends and colleagues has over 40 plus years in the arts and he will tell you the exact same thing. The first five minutes will change everything!

The material that I am talking about is not available everywhere. There are not that many instructors teaching it, and they are located in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Spain and Barrie/Toronto Canada.

If you or anyone else wishes to discuss this further, I would be more than happy to do so. You can reach me at jadescorpion@rogers.com or on msn messenger service under Genkidokan@hotmail.com

I look forward to hearing from you.

Shifu Shen Yu Xie
Shifu Jason Ward
Barrie, Ontario, Canada

PS. To answer Genjumin’s question; the essence of Shorin-Ryu can be found in the name. More on that later!

Genkidokan
22nd July 2002, 15:06
John Genjumin Vengel wrote:

And what, in your estimation, is the essence of Shorin ryu from whence come the Pinan kata, which contain the morote uke, and which the Okinawans do indeed know something about, but which indeed does come from Chinese styles?



Greetings:

To begin with I will answer the easiest of your questions, which is “what is the essence of Shorin-Ryu”?

Simply stated, the essence or primary concept of Shorin-ryu is flexibility, and the ability to flow naturally. This is the main reason for the name “Shorin-ryu”, which means Young (Small) Forest Style. As the story goes, the strong winds will blow the strong rooted tree, whereas the small pine tree will bend with the force, and absorb it, remaining unharmed and upright after the winds die down.

This is what the main focus of the art should be and if more practitioners of Shorin-Ryu would apply this concept then the whole understanding of morote-uke would not be that of a reinforced block by which the very name contradicts the main principle of the art.

The closer that one comes to understanding the principles and concepts of motion, then the easier it would be to understanding what it is that they are doing, and the need for “applications” would be non-existent. Techniques and their “applications” are limited in nature and will only lead you in circles. When a madman is swinging at you with the force and speed of a hurricane, your brain will not be able to quickly search through it’s database of techniques, select a technique, and then run through the countless applications and interpretations that you have store. What happens in most cases is martial artists “freeze” or all their training goes out the window, and they start swinging like a madman in return.

Instead of looking at a technique and wondering what the applications of it are, one should instead look at the principles that are inherent within the motion. Ask yourself, “What are my hands telling me?”

As for the Okinawan’s, just because someone comes from Okinawa, does not mean that they know everything or that they are the ultimate authority, when it comes to understanding motion and movement. Ask yourself this question: Whom would you want to train under? Person “A” who trained for 40 years and is a 6th dan who trains under an Okinawan Sensei, and can only give you 1-5 “applications” to a movement; or Person “B” with only 10 years training under a North American Instructor who teaches motion, anatomy, principles and concepts, and Person “B” can show you 50 or more “applications” to a technique, and can take any movement and use it to teach Ba Gua, Arnis, Tai Chi, Aikido, Kenpo and more.

Interesting question. Who would you want to study under???????

Everyone seems so protective about the Okinawan instructors, and people are thinking that Okinawan Karate is the same as Chinese Martial Arts. Okinawan’s according to documented and proven history were never given “full” access to a Chinese system, otherwise they would be teaching that system!! To be given full access to a Chinese system, one would have to be amongst the few “initiated” and made a definite lineage holder. Instead of this, the Okinawan instructors were given small amounts and from that created their own form of martial arts. If you do not believe me, ask history! The Okinawan’s do not hold all the answers. I have personally shown more to an Okinawan stylist of many “years” than his own Okinawan Sensei.

I am not saying this to be arrogant or disrespectful to you or any Okinawan stylist, or Okinawan in general, but rather, what I am attempting to do is bring to the table, a topic of conversation that I am not seeing hardly anyone approaching. Not here in this forum or other forums. Not in any dojo that I visit, or talk to on the phone. I am merely sending out a dove in search of someone to talk to on this level. For anyone interested, please e-mail me at: jadescorpion@rogers.com

I thank you for your response, and look forward to future conversations with you.

Best to you in the arts,

Shifu Shen Yu Xie
Shifu Jason Ward

kusanku
23rd July 2002, 03:55
Actually, I get a lot of my applications theory, as I call it, from the Taiji Classics these days.Been doing Taiji of the William C.C. Chen lineage, from some of his American students, for about nine years now. That makes me officially, a rookie in the art.:-)

As for the essence of Shorin ryu,a pine tree swaying in the wind, whipping about , its branches and boughs slicing and slashing, as the storm increases, the tree's whipping respinds, when the storm dies, the tree returns to a fluid and natural movement.

As for the Okinawans, some do know quite a bit, there's a man named Oyata that does.Of course, he had one Chinese teacher it is said.

Also that Okinawa book, or Chinese one , called Bubishi, has some interesting tidbits in it.

Did the Chinese teach the Okinawans everything? They say they didn't.But did any Okinawans learn it all and get a certificate, and teach in China? Two that I know of, Kojo family, and Kanbun Uechi, did.

Question then is, did any Okinawans learn from these two, everything? One teacher of Old style Uechi Ryu, named Toyama Seiko, is said to have learned , from Kanbun, what there was to learn.

However, there is much to learn.As to applications, they are many, and I can create as manyas I need, my American teacher showed me what his Okianwan teacher showed him, and gave me clues to find the rest, including go to Taiji, which I then did.

The essence of Taiji is the interplay of yin and yang.

The essence of Shaolin Kungfu, depends on which type one studies.

Goju, is hard and soft, sanchin and tensho, nowadays, but in past it was different.

Essence of White Crane kungfu, is springing energy and flapping, beaking and hooting like unto a Crane.:-)Deadly style though.
Possible ancestor of some karate styles.

Essence of Luohan Chuan, is basically similar to and parent of Shorin ryu.

Essence of most Chinese arts is health first and self defense second.Many Okinawan styles have lost the helth emphasis, Toyama's stil has it.Shorin isn't bad with it either.Can;'t speak to the others, not that familiar with them.

Genkidokan
23rd July 2002, 06:22
Something’s to Ponder.

Taka Seiyu Oyata: Ryukyu Kempo / Kyushu-jitsu. How many dime size strikes can you hit with pinpoint accuracy while in the middle of a raging tornado?

Kojo Ryu = promising. Uechi Ryu = Karate.

As for your Taiji, look at such concepts as Peng, An, Ji etc. This is a start. This would be a road sign to help show you the right direction. However, if you look at those terms as being techniques you are going southbound in the northbound lane.

As I mentioned earlier, I was attempting to bring the conversation to discuss not having the need to focus on techniques. I can show you all the “techniques” from any system, condensed into one-two movements.

Techniques are something to be created, not memorized. You do not want to analyze techniques for applications, but principles, concepts, and theories.

This is where conversations would be more sophisticated and academic. Arguing over applications or “the right way” to do a technique is a waste of energy and will not get you to the higher levels of understanding.

Fifty years from now, if someone is still stuck in technique la-la land, that would be a shame.

Would anyone wish to begin?

Sincerely
Shifu Jason Ward

Michael Clarke
23rd July 2002, 13:04
Hey Jason,
I think you hit the nail on the head in your last post (not sure which technique you used though :)
But you're correct when you say that kata/forms, call them what you will, are not about techniques, but about ideas, principles, and feelings.
Too many people these days see their martial arts as some kind of shopping list. The longer the list, the more they think they know?
Trouble is the list is never ending.
I have come to understand this through the study of karate, so please don't make the same mistake many others do about it, and see karate as some kind of kicking/punching activity has little depth.
This is an image created by those who are happy to train without investigating the true depth of their art.
As for 'styles', well, thats an idea that is even more misunderstood than the learning methods employed by the thousands of different groups around today.
We have two arms, two legs, a head and a body. None of which know their doing karate, kung-fu, aikido or anything else for that matter.
Only our egos tell us we're training in a particular way.
In my experience, talk has always been cheap, and actions have always spoken louder than words. If my attitude is strong enough in a fight, I'll take whatever you can give and then make you pay. If my attitude is not as strong as I think it is, then you'll have me.
As a final comment I have to ask; What the hell were you doing for the first ten years of training, if it was made to look useless in just five minutes with your new sifu?
All the best,
Mike Clarke.

Genkidokan
24th July 2002, 02:48
Michael:

If we were to amuse ourselves for just a moment and use Japanese Terms, the first 15 years of my training has been revolving around the Shoden and Chuden levels of understanding. I did not know any better until I met Professor Bober. Up to that point I was able to take techniques, and give alternate applicates that ranged from blocking, striking, locking, throwing, choking, and similiar themes. I even taught seminars on this type of material. I was doing nothing that individuals like George Dillman, Tony Annesi, Vince Morris, Elmar Schmeissar, Patrick McCarthy, and others were doing. Nothing very "high level" in my opinion. Once I met Professor, then all of a sudden he explained to me that there are ABSOLUTELY NO TECHNIQUES. If you had to reach out and find a technique, it would be in opening and closing motions of the body.

More to follow.

Shifu Jason Ward

Genkidokan
24th July 2002, 14:00
I mentioned that the only possible technique, relates to the body and how it moves. There is only one technique, and it moves in two directions. Forward and Reverse. Or you can label it outwards and inwards. Up and down, left and right.

The point is, just taking into consideration hand and arm techniques, they either move in or out from the body. That is all you need to know and all you need to memorize.

Everything from there is based upon the natural movement and motion of the two individuals involved in the altercation.

My early career in the martial was a process of continual growth. I was always learning and learning, which is what many of the readers on this post are doing now.

They will learn Jiu-jitsu to better understand their karate. However, one must understand that learning another art to add on techniques, or knowledge of their original art's techniques is not a line of progress, but a cycle of repitition. What is the difference between a low block and a jiu-jitsu choke? What is the difference between a finger lock combination and a low block? These are things I discussed with individuals, and everyone always saw more techniques, or higher understanding of the original techniques. this is what I saw as well, until Professor Bober showed me I was moving in circles, getting nowhere.

The Shoden and Chuden Levels, are like that. The Okuden level is a far departure from that cycle, and the Hiden level is above and beyond Okuden.

Shoden, Chuden, Okuden and Hiden are merely labels that people use. Not every system will have the same understanding of those words, so let me explain this:

Shoden and Chuden is the collection of and application of techniques and forms.

Okuden level is based upon principles and concepts and theories.

Hiden level is based upon experiencing the motion, similiar to a musician feeling the music. This is a level we just cannot talk about, but instead must teach.

Most people start at Shoden and try to work their way up the ladder. This would be similiar to a game of snakes and ladders, and is not an easy process.

I teach my students right off the bat, the Okuden level. By doing this we are raising the bar, and setting new ones daily.

Please feel free to continue anyone, it is good to be open minded and talk about things.

Sincerely

Shifu Jason Ward

kusanku
25th July 2002, 01:18
Originally posted by Genkidokan
[B]Something’s to Ponder.

Taka Seiyu Oyata: Ryukyu Kempo / Kyushu-jitsu. How many dime size strikes can you hit with pinpoint accuracy while in the middle of a raging tornado?

You are using Dillman's model, Not the Oyata model.Kyushojutsu is dian xue, anyway, and it deals with concepts of atemi, known as Jin in Chinese arts.You don't Have to hit a spot size of a dime, its a quarter anyway, and the answer is, after thirty eight years, lots, but not necessary to do so.Besides, locking is so you can hit the points, thought you'd know that one.:D


Kojo Ryu = promising.

Okinawan Hsing Yi, sort of.



Uechi Ryu = Karate.

Uechi Ryu, Zankai, kungfu.


As for your Taiji, look at such concepts as Peng, An, Ji etc. This is a start. This would be a road sign to help show you the right direction. However, if you look at those terms as being techniques you are going southbound in the northbound lane.

Gee, thanks, but you know, I already kind of got that about them, the eight powers and five directions are concepts.


As I mentioned earlier, I was attempting to bring the conversation to discuss not having the need to focus on techniques.


Applications means how you apply a form, not necessarily technique, but someone asked about the three morote uke, double hand recieving, waza in P4, so I answewred what they asked, That doesn't mean that's all I knew about it.One answers according to what is asked, and it is well not to undersetimate where anyone else may be, level-wise.


I can show you all the “techniques” from any system, condensed into one-two movements.

I can show it in eight arm positions. One or two would be pushing it, unless its single and double palm change of Pa Kua.Mawashi uke in karate.:-)


Techniques are something to be created, not memorized.

You can't start out at the top of the mountain, unless a helicopter drops you there, but if it did, don't act like you got there yourself and say anyone else can without learning to walk, then climb, first.



You do not want to analyze techniques for applications, but principles, concepts, and theories.

Applications are necessary, as Chinese arts will tell you, and they are composed of principles, concepts and sometimes, too darn many theories.It is best, as Funakoshi said, to take refuge in practice, than in theory.Theory won't save you when the rubber meets the road.


This is where conversations would be more sophisticated and academic.

Yeah, and abstract and meaningless.I prefer practical.


Arguing over applications or “the right way” to do a technique is a waste of energy and will not get you to the higher levels of understanding.

The applications done a right way are very important and are steps on the path to higher levels of understanding involving intuitive and trained body mechanics, anticipation of opponent's responses, and neutralization before the opponent cvan even finish his technique. One must go throguh stages in all endeavors not Divinely blest from the start, and even there God helps those who help themselves.

We start to read with the alphabet, not Shakespeare.Sometimes the higher level stuff, is merely more efficent usage of basivc mechanics.Physics and all that, y'know.Kyusho jutsu, real kyusho jutsu, is about that much more than hitting small targets.

But that's at higher levels.First learn to duck.




Fifty years from now, if someone is still stuck in technique la-la land, that would be a shame.

Haven't been for a long time, Son, saw the light in 1992 when my teacher showed it to me after twenty years practice of basics and kata and full contact kumite.


Would anyone wish to begin?

Guess that would depend on who thinks they know it all, and who thinks they don't.:DAnd if anyone can tell which one is which.

Personally, when someone approaches me with all the answers, I reach for my wallett and look around behind me.Of course, some accuse me of the same, but I merely share what I have experienced or picked up, and think, most people are intelligent enough to figure it our for themselves if they get a starting point, without benefit of a guru.

me, I'm just John.Have a nice day, Too.

Michael Clarke
25th July 2002, 08:59
Okay, here goes.
Back in 1973, just three days before my 18th birthday, a high court judge sentenced me to two years behind bars for causing greavious bodily harm to one guy, Actual bodily harm to a second guy, and wounding a third.
This came after two years of fighting in the street, at soccer matches, and anywhere else I could find someone to have a go at.
It didn't always go my way, but it did more times than it didn't.
On my release I found I had friends who had started training in karate so I started too.
When people get into discussions about fighting (real fighting), I always like to know if they have had experience or not? If they have taken knifes from people? (not fellow students, but people who want to hurt you).If they have the kind of mind that will throw a person under an on comming car? or through a window? the kind of mind that will walk into a gang of people and take on the leader (or the guy with the biggest mouth). If they have this sort of mind, then I say the guy can fight. If not, I say they should stick to their training and enjoy it for what it is.
Of all the fights I've had doing karate, I've never once experienced anything that comes even close to a 'real' fight. And let me tell you, I've been in some scary situations in the dojo.
I'm not trying to boast here. I'm just trying to make the point that real fighting and martial arts training, are two different things all together. Not because they have different physical methods, but because they have different mentalities.
Ask anyone who has served in the military about the difference between live ammunition excerises, and real combat.
And let me leave you with this thought. How come all these great 'Master's' are nowhere to be found when the ¤¤¤¤ really hits the fan.
For all the smart talking and the titles and the claims,I haven't seen anything on this thread that has lead me to believe that we're not still all talking about who's method is better than someone elses.
It's a very old chestnut.
Mike Clarke.

Genkidokan
25th July 2002, 14:01
Dear John:

The comment I made in regards to dime size strikes, was in reference to the fact that many Kyushu-jitsu people, Dillman or Oyata, whichever, seems to ignore the fact that the guy punching you is going to be like a whirlwind.

It is not one punch, and that changes everything. Yes locking helps slow him down, immobilize him, long enough for you to get it going, BUT!!!! I have seen Dillman in action, and I have seen Oyata in action as well. I have never to date seen either faction, move with the tornado. This is what I was referring to, as well as the whole technique mindset.

As for Peng, An, Ji, I told you this was a start only. Yes they are concepts, but I used these names as cheap label to a conceptual frame of mind. I could have used any principle or concept that has a “name” and it would not have mattered.

As I said before, and will do so again, I was trying to talk about Principles, Concepts, and Theories, and how they are a major highway to getting you to higher levels of understanding.

I have seen too many people from Karate, Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, Aikido etc., talk about this technique or that technique, and unless you have been to where I am talking about, you will see that this is a technique mindset, and is not where you could be or should be in my opinion.

If people want to argue over Morote-uke, Gedan-uke, Delayed Sword, Reprimanding the Bears, and Squeezing the Peach, go right ahead. Me, I am going to continue looking for someone with more to offer to a conversation than the same old nit picking and pissing contest that seems to be so popular.

None of my comments were directed to anyone so as to put him or her down. Personally, I don’t care, and I was looking for conversation. However since you brought it up, your response was totally void of any principles or concepts. It was technique oriented and this is fine, if that is what you wished to talk about.

You could have brought the conversation to this topic, and managed to discuss this seldom talked about area, but perhaps that was for a later day. I do not assume, but if I am looking for someone on a forum that wishes to talk to me about such things, why get so hot under the collar? Each of your posts seems to have been very defensive. Why? If you have such knowledge, why not talk about it to someone who wishes too? Is it that big of a secret?

As for the eight arm positions, you missed the point. I mentioned that all movement stems from opening and closing. Unless you do not have a human anatomy, then that is the minimum and that is what I was talking about. One or two is not pushing it, but rather it is the number it should be. Anything more than one or two movements (again opening and closing) is a technique, and this is why you made mention of double palm change, and mawashi uke. It was a technique-oriented answer,

And this is fine.

You can start out at the top of the mountain, and that is what I do. That is what I offer to the white belt student, and that is what I offer the 5th dan in Karate. I do not act like I got there myself, and I even mentioned who got me there!!!!! I guess you missed that though.

Yes you want to be able to do it on the mats, and on the street, but I hate to tell you this but Funakoshi took refuge in practice for a very important reason.

How you train inside the school will prepare you for outside the school. I wish anyone well that wants to try to pull off a technique there.

Conversations would be abstract and meaningless to someone who was not involved in the conversation. If I can show you something that will help you, is that not something? Perhaps if I gave you 50 hardcore applications for Mawashi-uke or Morote-uke this conversation would be better????

Perhaps If I asked the forum what their favourite technique was
To me, that would make it abstract and meaningless. I prefer practical.

As for technique la-la land, if it took you 20 years of basics, and kata, and full contact karate kumite, why would you want to make someone else wait 20 years?

If It took you 20 years to see light, wouldn’t you want to share in that light????

I don’t claim to know it all, but damn son, don’t blame me if I am trying to help others that are stuck. I am not in it for the money and I personally think that waiting 20 years to teach properly is a form of fraud.

Why waste 20 years?

Jason.


PS. For anyone out there that wishes to talk to me in regards to getting a better understanding of the martial arts, please feel free to e-mail me a jadescorpion@rogers.com or post here.

This is a fine forum, and I would love to use it more often with you.

kusanku
26th July 2002, 00:57
Piff!

kusanku
26th July 2002, 01:00
Originally posted by kusanku
In Zen Buddhism, the control of the mind or self is represented by a series of pictures of a Man and a Bull.The mind is caught, finally, in the fourth Picture, called Catch Bull at Four.

I see you skipped the first three steps and allow others to catch bull right away.:D

Now I will show the tenth picture, called, all dissapears.

Piff!

Genkidokan
26th July 2002, 02:21
Dear Piff:

Once upon a time, there was a man who came into a big city, and was lost. He needed to find a restaurant on Bayfield Street. He was on Dunlop Street.

He asked a passerby how to get to the bottom of Bayfield Street. The passerby said: "Go West on Dunlop Street, for 4 blocks, until you get to Anne Street. Go North on Anne Street for 6 blocks, until you get to Livingstone Street. Turn East on Livingstone Street, and go 8 blocks until you get to Bayfield Street. Turn South on Bayfield Street and continue South for 6 blocks, and you will find your restaurant."

The next day, he went out traveling and found himself lost on Dunlop Street again. He found a passerby and asked him how to get to the same restaurant on Bayfield Street.

The passerby said: "Go West on Dunlop Street, for 4 blocks, until you get to Anne Street. Go North on Anne Street for 6 blocks, until you get to Livingstone Street. Turn East on Livingstone Street, and go 8 blocks until you get to Bayfield Street. Turn South on Bayfield Street and continue South for 6 blocks, and you will find your restaurant."

On the third day he went out roving once more, and yet again, this poor man got lost on Dunlop Street. A passerby was watching, and noticed that this guy had a bewildered look on his face, and approached him, and asked if he was lost.

The man said: "Yes I am indeed lost sir. This is the third time I have found myself lost at this particular spot on Dunlop Street, and each time I forget the directions to get to my restaurant on the Southern end of Bayfield Street. The directions are long and tedious, and it seems I am walking forever. Can you help me?"

The passerby, looked at the man with astonished, yet sympathetic eyes, and said:

"You poor man. Don't you know, that if you just walk 4 blocks east, you will get to your destination!!!"

Why walk for 24 blocks (years) if you can get to your goal in just 4 blocks (years).

Of course this is just an example, but when you think about things, why do you walk up and down the floor repetitively throwing a morote uke (reinforced block) without ever understanding who, what, where, when, but, how, why?????

Again, why waste time which can never be repeated or rewound. When someone is a guest in your house and is hungry, don't you feed him??

Now some might say it is not the length of the journey but the journey itself that matters.

If I can get to my destination in only five minutes, but somebody gives me directions that will take me 24 years, I may not be Albert Einstein, but I think I would pick the Five minutes. Of course, this means that I, and my students are starting the journey at the top of the mountain, where the air is clear, the sky is blue, and the view is less obstructed.

But I guess, that would mean we are raising the bar, setting the pace, and waiting 24 years, for you to catch up!

sincerely

Poff.

hakutsuru
26th July 2002, 11:06
Why walk for 24 blocks (years) if you can get to your goal in just 4 blocks (years).

My dojo is about 15 miles from my apartment. It often takes me 45 minutes in rush hour traffic to travel these 15 miles. When I have the chance, I leave early and take a long detour. I head far out of town I ride my Harley down along Lake Mead over by Hoover Dam and back into town. These 100 or so miles are far more rewarding to me then hum-drum commute through rush hour traffic. On the way home I again will take a detour and head up the Strip enjoying the lights and sounds of Vegas. I put many more miles on my bike then I have to, but I am greatly rewarded because of it. Sometimes our motivation is simply the sense of discovery, not the obtaining of knowledge.

Tommy Lane

hakutsuru
26th July 2002, 11:18
I have a couple of questions.

Mr. Vengel, why did you compare Kojo-ryu to Hsing-Yi. I don't know much about Hsing-yi so you've caught my interest with your statement.

Mr. Ward, you have made some interesting points and I agree with much of what you have said as I'm sure many here also do. If you don't mind, I am curious as to what your background is. I am primarily a Shorin-ryu stylist but I have influences from other Okinawan, and to a lesser extent, Japanese and Chinese styles.

Thomas Lane

Khahan
26th July 2002, 13:07
Genkidokan,
Basically, you are saying you'll take the shortcut. I've found that taking shortcuts always cause you to miss something. Also, I would say that the person who reaches his goal in 5 years might be an expert at it in 24 years. But the person who takes 24 years to reach his goal will have mastered it.
Its one thing to have a person tell you or show you something. You know, you can do it. Its another thing to discover it. When you discover knowledge as opposed to having it taught to you, the knowledge becomes a part of you.
The trick is getting enough knowledge early on to know where to look to discover the more 'advanced' knowledge on your own.

Genkidokan
26th July 2002, 20:44
Greetings:

I will attempt to cover these last three e-mails in one shot.

To Tommy Lane, You are approaching an aspect that is very interesting and very rewarding. To talk of discovery over knowledge, what if I said that the discovery of knowledge is the rewarding factor? What if you could create constantly, surprising yourself with new discoveries and newfound knowledge?

When you mention the drive you take to beat the rush hour blues, you could be talking about the study of nature, and this can open the door to a massive amount of discoveries. Sit back and watch how nature is in movement and growth. Sit back and watch how people interact with one another.

This is where things can get interesting.

As for my background, to sum it up briefly, I started my career in Kobayashi-Ryu and Matsubayashi-Ryu. I eventually studied Goju-ryu, Shotokan and Shorinji-ryu, Ryukyu Kempo, to enrich my Okinawan Karate background. By chance I began studying Kenpo, which I have studied for the last 10 years. Not to long ago, I met up with Professor Bober and began training in Shen Lung Chuan, of which I hold the position Shifu.

Now looking at my background one would think that I hopped around a lot, and to be honest, I only really made three hops. The Shotokan, Shorinji-ryu and Ryukyu Kempo endeavors was to further my education of Shorin-ryu. The first switch was leaving Shorin-ryu for Goju-ryu. This was done because where I lived had no Shorin-ryu clubs for quite a distance. The second switch was leaving Goju-ryu (and Karate) for Kenpo. This was done because the Goju-ryu school closed down, and Kenpo was a very interesting system to study. The last switch was for Shen Lung, because it gave me a freedom that I have never seen, and the level of understanding of this art, is so far above anything I had ever seen.

This is my background in a nutshell.

As for the comment about taking the shortcut, I would not say that what I am talking about is a shortcut. Yes, the level of understanding, is much higher than anything I have ever seen, and yes we give the information away much sooner than one would expect, but consider the following:

Instead of walking up and down the floor, repeating basics, we teach the basics, with proper form, mechanics, etc, but instead of making you obtain understanding of these basics on your own, we give you the tools to immediately begin to understand the insides of the motion.

Timing, distancing, posturing, positioning, are things we teach immediately. We teach you how your body moves, and how your opponent’s body moves. We teach you how to understanding the union of motion between you and your opponent in such a manner, that you can manipulate your attacker in such a way, that you can be either compassionate, or destructive, or completely not there.

Instead of practicing forms over and over again, we teach you not only how to perform the form with proper mechanics etc, but we spend a great amount of time discussing the principles, concepts, and theories, and then apply them. Our forms are living libraries of information, which we use much like a dictionary. These are our lab tools, and we begin experimenting right away.

I have seen too many 8th Dans, who after 30-40 years do not have a rich understanding their systems. I find it strange that these 8th and 9th dans, get puzzled looks on their faces when they see what we teach to white belts. Not to sound arrogant or cocky or my style is better than you, but when they see what our white belts learn, they often times get a little put off because they themselves do not understand what they are seeing.

There is no such thing as one style better than the other, but if you want to learn, why not learn in such a manner that you can have the best education. This is why people go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. The reputation of these schools is because of what they offer, not because of how affordable they are.

I do disagree with the comment that about the expert who reaches the goal in 5 years, and the master in 24 years.

Ask yourself this: Would you want to fly on a plane with a pilot who took 24 years to have the ability to fly a plane, or would you want the guy who learned how to fly the plane in 5 years and spent 19 years perfecting it?

As I said we do not give you all the answers, but what we do give you is the keys to understanding movement and motion, and the discoveries are up to you.

One of my students, a 5th Dan in Kenpo has told me that he has learned more in the one month with me, than in 20 years of his Kenpo training. This has been the happiest month of his life; he often gets upset over the last 20 years. I keep telling him that the past cannot be rewound or relived. There is no tomorrow and there is no yesterday. There is only today that matters, and if you can have the smile on his face every day, then that is special.

Best wishes

Jason.

Nyuck3X
26th July 2002, 21:28
Genkidokan, (aka Jason San)

Please check your messeges in your user cp (control panel).
I've a few questions.

Thanks,

Genkidokan
27th July 2002, 11:17
Dear Ray:

I checked my messages and thank you for replying. Please see my response that I sent you

Sincerely

Jason.

kusanku
28th July 2002, 01:03
Originally posted by hakutsuru
[B]I have a couple of questions.

Mr. Vengel, why did you compare Kojo-ryu to Hsing-Yi. I don't know much about Hsing-yi so you've caught my interest with your statement.


Well, they both have twelve animal forms.Similar concept it seems, both from China, both very simple bot not simplistic, and so it seemd to me, they have much in common, as do Shorin ryu and Hsing Yi.

Regards

kusanku
28th July 2002, 01:17
There are many better athletes than me in the martial arts;this is understatement.

There are many who do things better than I do, and who know many more things than do I.

But if there is something a whole lot better than what I have been shown, I have yet to encounter it.

I don't want to appear boastful , but it will seem that way.

When you learn to drop someone by hitting their arm, not through magic technique but using body mechanics;when you can lock with a step and a twist of your own limbs while the oppoonent hangs on and can't get loose, and throw using the opponent's attacking momentum, and do all this without breaking a sweat,admittedly on someone less skilled, but who can do anything on someone mre skilled?:D and when you can derive all this from kata study and practice, after your basics have been perfected relatively over decades training.

What else do you need?

I consider the first twenty or so years of my training, very beneficial, physivcally, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. They taught me a great deal about life, the hard way.I can't but think if I'd been shown all that I was shown, at first, I would have missed a lot of lessons, and maybe not gone on to get as good at it as I then did.I might even have thought, I knew it all( I don't yet of course, but what I have can teach me for the rest of this life) and dropped it. YMMV.
Pidiboff.:D

kusanku
28th July 2002, 01:26
Y'know, this all reminds me of the interview with Brusce Lee, where he looks intently into the camera, and delivers a soliloquy on water, ending with:'Be water, my friend.'

Great advice, but we're not water.We're people, and we need to train in many things and practice them, before we can become that fluid as even we are able to.

If we start out with the heavy concepts, I doubt our ability to master them immediately.

Have some of your new students, Jason, bested in sparring, a Fifth Dan in Kenpo, a judo brown belt, a pro boxer, a high school wreslter, after a few weeks instruction?

With your many years training, I have no doubt you are quite skilled, but as to those new students, how about them? I note that Bruce Lee only liked teaching people who already were skilled, one way or another.

I question the wisdom and practicality of teaching concepts at advanced levels to new students who need to learn to walk, not fly, at first.

When my teacher showed me kata apps after tweenty years, I was already expert in the kata and basics.So, I was able to do these at a high level, relatively.But if I'd been told this at first, I t would have preoccupied my thinking and perhaps messed up my basics.

That's why I think, maybe this isn't the best way to go about things.But if your new students can whop someone withn twenty years under their belt, why, more power to them, and to you.

Goju Man
28th July 2002, 01:38
Y'know, this all reminds me of the interview with Brusce Lee, where he looks intently into the camera, and delivers a soliloquy on water, ending with:'Be water, my friend.'
John, it just so happens that I was watching the special on him on AMC last night. If you watched that special, you would have seen his development into "water". He was always interested in what was effective regardless of where it came from. When he fought the challenge match, he took the challenger to the ground and made him submit. He spent his life developing, questioning, and evolving. I for instance have an emotional attachment to the art of Goju, yet fight completely beyond it. Even though Goju was pretty close to having it all. Nothing was out of bounds, yet I have gone further.
John, even though this next bit probably belongs in the Shotokan thread, I don't think that their knoledge of bunkai was less than others, they just concentrated on fighting. Many Kyokushin, Enshin, Seidokan schools don't know or probably care about bunkai, but they can sure fight. See ya.

Genkidokan
28th July 2002, 04:15
John:

Believe it or not, but while I was teaching in North Carolina, we once had a 3rd Dan in Aikido, come in and try a class. We put him with one of our yellow belts, who had only had 4 months of training. This Aikidoka, asked her if she was a black belt in another system, and when she repied that her only rank in the martial arts was a yellow belt, he got very upset, and was never to be heard from again.

We did the same with a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu. This guy has trained for 40 years, and when he saw what we offered, he dropped 40 years of Shorin ryu and sometime later became a Shifu in the art, and a darn fine one at that.

Professor Bober did the same thing with a very high ranking black belt in Ryukyu Kempo. This guy was around 7-8th I believe. Same reaction. Oh by the way, Ron Richards is beginning to learn this art as well, studying under Professor Bober.

I was at a "hall of fame" and watched as several legitimate 8th, 9th, and 10th dans had their jaws drop and hit the floor.

More people responded to Professor Bober's demonstration than did Fusei Kise's demonstration.

I am not saying any of this to make it appear that Shen Lung is better than any other system, and I can see how it may look that way, but believe me, we do not go around smashing other arts on purpose. We simply ask questions, to accomplish a few things. Sometimes the questions we ask upset people, but that is not our fault or intention. We ask these questions to:

1. To see who else is doing this. To date, I know of only two other individuals, (outside of Shen Lung), and neither of them are willing to teach it.

2. To raise the thought process of all martial artists. Nothing wrong with raising the bar.

Now you may feel that I am making this up, or B.S'ing you, but I would simply suggest to you or anyone else, to simply go to Allentown Pennsylvania, and look up Professor Bober. You can find more info about him and the art at www.shenlungchuan.cjb.net and you can contact him.

Believe me, seeing is believing. We are in the process of making documentary videos to be able to show people a little of what we are talking about. If anyone is interested I can let you know when they are available.

This is no shortcut, and we are not missing steps, but merely, we have a method of showing it fast, simple, and easy to do. As I said, before, our white, yellow and green belts, make people wonder.

Oh and by the way, when I first saw Shen Lung, I also saw two of Professor's students, who only trained with him for 3 years. I am both ashamed, and unashamed at the same time, to admit, that all of my years in the martial arts, could not even come close to the same level as either one of these gentlemen. I almost puked, and quit right then and there.

The only reason I did not quit, was Professor was very kind to me and offered his hand in friendship, and accepted me as his student. At the time, I was a pretty high rank, and also an inheritor to my Grandmasters Kenpo system. I am pleased that he told me to go and study under Professor Bober. Not many instructors would do that. Especially to his inheritor. But he did, and I am on this path. I gave up a lot to do this, but I gained so much more.

I would wish this on anyone.

Please feel free to talk about these things. Thats all I ask. There is no reason why not to.

Sincerely

Jason.

kusanku
30th July 2002, 04:10
Have I mentioned that I am the Sole Heir to the lost art of Minoan Mayhem?

Otherwise known as Catching the Bull, this art, involving the regular offering of maidens, is fun, a million laughs, and if the Minotaur don't kill you, you get to keep the maiden if you rescue her in time.

Downside is, Minotaur usually kills you.

Tough art, but with proper understanding of concepts, it can be learnt and mastered.Amount of time and probale life expectancy varies, if you are a Greek Mythic Hero, you may have a chance.Notice your name is Jason, wanna give it a try? Achilles or Perseus or Herakles would work better, but Jason is a good start.

He's the one who had the Golden Fleece if my memory serves.:D

Say, I got this here Bridge in Brooklyn, its a little rusty, what say?

Genkidokan
30th July 2002, 15:32
Dear Genjumin:

Boy you just don’t get it do you? And because you do not get it, you will result to childish and petty little posts, to make your heart feel better and your ego more inflated.

A person that understands what I am talking about, would not result to such ignorant little ramblings, but instead would act like a mature spokesperson of the martial arts, and would continue the conversation for those that would need it, and to help raise the level of understanding for all those concerned. Obviously, this was not you.

If you do not wish to hold a conversation on the topic, why bother even writing? All you are accomplishing is giving cause for others on this particular forum to scratch their head at the politics of the situation, and this is why I have received private messages away from this forum. Others simply do not wish to listen to politics.

People are here for many reasons, and one of them is to learn. The job of an instructor is to help guide the student regardless of rank. Even black belts need to learn, and this is something you need to think about.

Again the purpose of all of my posts was to raise the level of conversation, not to sink to writing a post like this. From the time of my first post, how much conversation was on the topic at hand, and how much was on this silliness???

As for you Golden Fleece, and Bridge comment, do you not realize how many shots I could take at you here? Too easy. While a part of me would love to tear an even bigger strip out of you than I have here, the mature side of me says that it is not worth it, and really unnecessary. Water finds its own level, and the others that are communicating with me are more important.

Thank you for your most enlightening conversations.

Jason.

kusanku
31st July 2002, 02:41
Originally posted by Genkidokan
[B]Dear Genjumin:

Boy you just don’t get it do you?

Oh, I get it, Jason. Believe me I do.You want ot be my Guru and I won't be your worshipful chela.This ticks you off.


[/quote]And because you do not get it, you will result to childish and petty little posts, to make your heart feel better and your ego more inflated.[/quote]

My heart feels fine, I live life every day, and enjoy what the Creator provides me, But as for an earthly master, I have no need of one.

As for my ego, ego stands for everybody's got one:D, and mine is in fine shape. I don't need to inflate it by having fun with you, Humor by the way, like true humilty, is usually a sign that one doesn't take oneself too seriously, and I, the great John Genjumin Vengel, sure don't do that.:-)


A person that understands what I am talking about, would not result to such ignorant little ramblings, but instead would act like a mature spokesperson of the martial arts,

Ah, you have seen my well known name and attemted to use it for your own agenda. I swear by the great John F. Gilbey, that I will be no part o' such plans.'Less I feel like it, that is.


and would continue the conversation for those that would need it, and to help raise the level of understanding for all those concerned.

So, you can't present your point of view without me or some other well known marttial personality used as a cats-paw?That doesn't seem too mature to me, Jason.As far as raising the lefvel of understanding of martial arts, I think there are many out there, doing this, and some on here doing this as well.But when you state you can teach all the techniques of all the arts with two moves, expansion and contraction, that's like saying that you can teach allsports with two leg moves, pushing and stepping. May be those are at base of all movement, but that isn't the same as learning all martial arts.



Obviously, this was not you.

Sorry I didn't meet your expectations, but them's the breaks, Kid.Its a tough world.


If you do not wish to hold a conversation on the topic, why bother even writing? All you are accomplishing is giving cause for others on this particular forum to scratch their head at the politics of the situation, and this is why I have received private messages away from this forum. Others simply do not wish to listen to politics.

Politics? I am not in any organization. I got no agenda. I'm simply here spending a few minutes, and having fun or trying to, when here you come, applications are stupid, techniques are beside the point, be water my friend. Bushwah!


People are here for many reasons, and one of them is to learn.

Hey, you got your plugs in for yourself and Professor Bober, no opne deleted your posts, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.When I first came on the interent, I took a lot worse than good natured ribbing, for saying a lot less unbleievable things than you do.Minoan mayhem, anyone?



The job of an instructor is to help guide the student regardless of rank. Even black belts need to learn, and this is something you need to think about.

Jason, you don't know me, you never met me, and you can't guage my skill from my posts, so you need to think about this: what if I already knpow what I need to know? I can always learn more, but the kata are my treachers these days.You aren't, and with your attitude, you ain't gonna be. On the other hand, I am not looking for students anywahere i turn people away.Glad to share with anyone who actually wants to learn but I don't have to convince anyone that they need to learn from me, they don't.


Again the purpose of all of my posts was to raise the level of conversation, not to sink to writing a post like this.[quote]

And yet you have sunk to this level.Your mastery of the Tao is slipping, Jason, be careful.

[quote] From the time of my first post, how much conversation was on the topic at hand, and how much was on this silliness???

Silliness, Sir, is saying that applications don't matter, technique isn't the point, and principles and concepts are all you need to become a great fighter.Tigers and gorrilas don't have any concepts but can fight better than any unarmed human.


As for you Golden Fleece, and Bridge comment, do you not realize how many shots I could take at you here?


I shudder at the thought of such literary violence.If you listen closely you can hear my teeth chattering.


Too easy. While a part of me would love to tear an even bigger strip out of you than I have here,

I don't notice any flesh missing , Jason.:-)




Which, no doubt, is why you spent so much time writing this stuff.:D

[quote]Water finds its own level,

Then what are you doing here?'Be water my friend.'


and the others that are communicating with me are more important.

But of course they are.And be sure to tell me how many people do support you, as though that makes a big deal to me.


Thank you for your most enlightening conversations.

You should thank me,too. Sometime you may want to wake up to the light of truth, and while you may not find it in my posts, you won't find any hypocrisy, false humility or statements that can't be shown to be true, either.Not for the most apart anyway, no body is perfect.Except you, right Jason?

Thought so.Take yourself pretty seriously, don't you?

Be water, my friend.:D

Genkidokan
31st July 2002, 03:38
EXACTLY.

kusanku
31st July 2002, 03:51
Then we are in hamronious agreeement at last.\
Om Mani Padme Hum.

-Fine handcrafted good available at reasonable prices/wire OZIMOTO.

Joe Swift
31st July 2002, 04:32
Hi guys,

The couple of posts about Kojoryu caught my eye:

It was written:
quote:
----------------------------------
Kojo Ryu = promising.
----------------------------------
Okinawan Hsing Yi, sort of.


Please allow my two yen worth, as I know Hayashi Shingo (arguably the last Kojoryu instructor still active) and have been beat up by him a couple of times,,,

Kojoryu is nothing more than another interpretation of Okinawan karate, plain and simple... it is not a "pure Fujian quanfa style" or anything. Just good old fashioned karate... and trust me, being on the receiving end, it sure as heck does get the job done! :-D

Anyway,

Joe Swift
Tokyo

Tatsu
31st July 2002, 11:08
Shifu: I find your take on the applications debate quite interesting. I will agree that one should look past the bunkai when it comes to practical application. The process of learning requires for the student to have a basic understanding of an unfamiliar concept. This is part of the reason that bunkai is discussed, especially at the beginner and intermediate levels. You would see multiple applications of a single movement in kata if you were to ask various Shihan of the same ryuha. Many times multiple bunkai are detailed in training. Strikes can become controls/locks in certain scenarios. Hard blocks are strikes and can be parries in some instances.

If you take a modern art like GJJ or an older art like Judo, you would find that careful explanation of submission techs and throws is needed in order for the student to apply the technique correctly. Angle, hand grip, entry and sensitivity must be relayed in some way. After showing the student then performs the application in a controlled manner with the instructor or another student and then in real-time "rolling". After explanation of a certain karate bunkai in kata or kihon, the student often practices in two man drills or yakusuko kumite in a controlled manner, then in kumite or real-time two man drills. That is how learning any physical technique works. You observe, assimilate, practice, then execute.

You will also agree, being a Ryukyuan trained karateka, that bunkai is quite meaningless to many Sensei at the higher levels. If no bunkai were ever taught, though, the learning process would be rougher and extended. At First Dan the years of drilling, sparring, and most importantly forms practice, begin to coalesce into an amalgam of defensive, offensive physical, and mental, actions/reactions. Zenryo Shimabukuro once commented at a seminar that a good karate-ka should be able to perform jujutsu like techniques after diligent years of proper training, without ever having trained in formal grappling arts. He remarked that years of forms practice alone allowed for an integration of Implicit and Explicit memory. Kata teaches us much more than people give it credit for.

Kata is the outline and bunkai oyo and bunkai kihon are the specifics of the instruction manual. Interpretations of actual application and meaning vary with the individual; just like most things in life.

The ability to use your specific method of teaching to pass on info is singular. Some folks are better teachers and orators than others. I know people with little knowledge in a subject, but through innate intelligence and excellent memory skills, can read a paper on the effects of telomerase on a chromosome, and give a professional power-point presentation the next day. They can do this with very little knowledge of Genetics, Cellular Biology, Molecular Biology or senescence research. They would make very good con-men, hehehe! "I got some property in the Everglades I'd like to sell ya'!"

You claim that you learned more about MAs in 5 minutes than you did in 5+ years of traditional training. I'll tell you this: if you were a Kobayashi, Shorinji, Matsubayashi or Goju guy and a high dan rank, then your instructors had a problem conveying the message. Who were your sensei and where did you study? Yamashita sensei? I can't believe that! Anyway, doesn't this say something about their knowledge base in the first place? Also, I don't know if you really know what's up, but Fusei Kise is a REAL fighter. He's no theory guy. I know people have said that he stopped teaching the real deal in the early 70s, but he still knows how to handle himself real well. Don't get stuff twisted, haha! I don't know what you've heard about him and his MAs prowess, but if Kise was talking at a seminar most guys would pay attention to what he was showing or saying. No doubt your instructor did his thing, too.

I don't know who you are. I won't make like I do. I do know that you're making some pretty big claims on e-budo. Have you ever trained with Karate-ka like Morio Higaonna, Yoshimasa Matsuda, Shuguro Nakazato, James Coffman, Ron Lindsey, or other modern day Bushi whose lives have been the MAs? I have a feeling that if you ever did that then you would learn more in 30 seconds than you did in 5 minutes with your Shifu. What you guys are doing is a broke version of traditional Okinawan training in a family system.

BTW, Pangai Noon/Uechi Ryu or in Chinese Kingai Noon is a form of Lion Boxing. I don't know about the Hsing Yi connection, but the history and techs kinda' state otherwise. Kojo Ryu is an Ancestral Crane style and has a long and rich heritage on Okinawa. Goju and Shorin (this includes Okinawan Kempo, Shito Ryu and other ShuriTe fam, even Shotokan) are 100% descendants of Fukien White Crane. The highest level of Kata in Matsumura Orthodox Shorin is the Hakutsuru form (White Crane). My sensei who learned this form from Fusei kise and Hohan Soken (ever heard of him?), calls his dojo the "Hakutsuru Kan". Also, no one claimed that the Chinese or Okinawans had all the secrets to combatives.

Karate is a mixture of Shaolin Chuan Fa, Ti (Okinawan closed fist techs and grappling), and in many cases Japanese Samurai family styles like the Satsuma Clan's Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu. Ryukyuan Karate Jutsu is a very complete combat art. It has many aspects to it that many Chinese systems lack (especially now). Anyway good promo for whatever you're pitching. If you're ever in San Antonio maybe we can hook up and swap recipes! I'd love to see first hand what you're talking about... Fun and careful training!

Khahan
31st July 2002, 20:55
You will also agree, being a Ryukyuan trained karateka, that bunkai is quite meaningless to many Sensei at the higher levels.
I'm not a Ryukyuan practitioner, so I'll have to disagree with this statement.
When my Sensei started talking about Bunkai, I became aware of more in the martial arts than I ever thought could exist. When he started to teach bunkai, I began to understand that what the martial arts offers is limitless. One way to directly access this unlimited pool of knowledge is through bunkai.
Bunkai will never become useless or obsolete to me. It may not be the 'end all be all' of studying. It also will never be the only means of studying. But it will most certainly always be a viable means of studying.

Kata is the outline and bunkai oyo and bunkai kihon are the specifics of the instruction manual.
I would actually reverse this. Kata, to me, is the pigeon-holed specific movements strung together. Bunkai is the general index of theory which allows me to see the specifics applied.
Through bunkai, you can see that the motions you make in kata can be referenced in striking or grappling. Punching or kicking. Attacking or defending.

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 00:02
Dear Brian:

Thanks for your reply. Somehow during the 4 pages of posts on this particular forum, I feel we got away from the topic. The original topic was on applications to a morote uke, and then I just had to open my big mouth and mention that one should not look at “techniques” but the principles, concepts and theories, pertaining to movement and motion. Somehow, we went from there to style versus style etc etc.

But that’s okay. It happens.

Reading your post, I will try to approach some things.
When you said that you would see multiple applications of a single movement in kata (or basics) if you were to ask various Shihan of the same Ryuha. Yes, you are absolutely right. You will. This is just human nature. Everyone has their opinions, as you have seen right here. This is naturally going to happen, even to the extent of having one Shihan argue with another Shihan over who is doing the art the way the founder wanted. This happens in Japan, Okinawa, and North America.

This is not what I was approaching though. Of Course everyone will have different interpretations, but that is because when someone asks, “what does this movement mean”? This is what you’re going to get. If someone asks for an application, they will get an application. I don’t ask for applications. Those are easy enough to do. You could play all day with a technique or form, and come up with millions of applications, if you so desired.

What I am asking is, what can you get from the movement other than an application? How does that particular movement teach you Psychology? Anatomy? Communication? Sociology? Energy Collection?

What am I doing to his body? What have I done to his center? What have I done to his anatomy? Did it get opened or closed? Did it get condensed or expanded?

Techniques and forms can give you so much more than applications.
I do agree that Bunkai, lets use the term applications for now, is quite meaningless to high ranking instructors. Why? Because there is so much more to learn than Bunkai. Believe it or not, philosophy should be learned, and even this can be pulled from a technique or form.

A system and its practitioners would be rougher if that is what was promoted. We do not teach sparring. We teach a form of free flow, but trust me that is not sparring. We do not teach applications, but teach students how to come up with their own applications. Instead of spending several years trying to find really cool applications to a morote uke, they make it up themselves. We do not teach robots, but free thinkers. Because I guarantee anyone, if I start swinging like a madman, you will not be able to remember your own name. You won’t remembering, you will be busy at the moment. No?

Kata teaches us much more than people give it credit for. As you said, and I said. People should start going out of the box on that topic!!!

When you said:

You claim that you learned more about MAs in 5 minutes than you did in 5+ years of traditional training. I'll tell you this: if you were a Kobayashi, Shorinji, Matsubayashi or Goju guy and a high dan rank, then your instructors had a problem conveying the message.

Umm, trust me on this, I was not without knowledge. My instructors conveyed a ton of info to me. I could take a reverse punch from karate, and teach you how to strike, block, lock, and choke. I could do all of that. Pressure points? Ya, dillman stuff, true, but I could do it.

I once did a seminar where I took a low block and taught locking, choking, striking, blocking, weapons, tuite, kyusho etc etc etc. As I said, I was not without knowledge. But the difference was when I received a wake up call when the Professor showed me how to step out of the box. That was when the floodgates opened.

As to who I trained with? Well, My three Shorin Ryu instructors, studied under two big names. The first was under Shuguro Nakazato. The other two were students under Shoshin Nagamine. I personally had the pleasure of attending seminars under Takayoshi Nagamine, Kensei Taba, and more. I was there for a seminar by Fusei Kise.
What does that say about my instructor’s knowledge base? The same as everyone else in Karate. Seriously folks I am not talking about Karate. I am talking about more. I am not trying to bash styles, but to talk about a subject that transcends all styles. What I am teaching and training in is not a broke version of Traditional Okinawan Karate. Trust me my friend, we do not look anything like karate. We do none of the Karate kata. We are a Kung Fu system. Not Wushu either.

I don’t feel I am making pretty big claims on E-budo or any other forum I visit. I am merely trying to see who wants to talk about certain things. Why? Don’t ask me. Most of the time I feel like I am wasting my breath. Why? Well, look at these posts. Why aren’t we talking about getting a deeper understanding of the arts, instead of style bashing, and “Have you ever trained under so and so”. Who cares who I trained under? Who cares who you trained under? What does that have to do with what I am talking about? This is a subject that does not need big names or small names. This system or that system. It only needs conversation. I would talk to someone the same no matter what rank he was or who he was or thought he was, or who he studied under.

All are the same to me.

I hope you don’t think that I am promoting anything. I really do not care if someone wants to train with me or not. I do not need students. I am not in the martial arts for the money. I don’t even charge!!

As for visiting San Antonio, I would love to. If you’re in Barrie, Ontario Canada, please come visit with me.

I hope that we can also swap ideas here on the internet too!
Sincerely

Jason

kusanku
1st August 2002, 00:49
Originally posted by Joe Swift
Hi guys,

The couple of posts about Kojoryu caught my eye:

It was written:
quote:
----------------------------------
Kojo Ryu = promising.
----------------------------------
Okinawan Hsing Yi, sort of.


Please allow my two yen worth, as I know Hayashi Shingo (arguably the last Kojoryu instructor still active) and have been beat up by him a couple of times,,,

Kojoryu is nothing more than another interpretation of Okinawan karate, plain and simple... it is not a "pure Fujian quanfa style" or anything. Just good old fashioned karate... and trust me, being on the receiving end, it sure as heck does get the job done! :-D

Anyway,

Joe Swift
Tokyo

Cool, Joe. A couple questions then: What kata does Kojo Ryu do, if you are allowed to tell, and whence the Twelve Animal Forms?

Also, is there any relation betwen Kojo Ryu and Gordon Doversola's Okinawa-te, also containing twelve animal forms, if you know?

Also, whence is the lineage then, of Kojo Ryu, through which Okinawan masters before the Kojos, did it come, if it be not a Chinese style as Bishop stated it were?


Also, you got some good information on Motobu Ryu, do you have their kata list by any chance, I'd like to know which ones they use, too.I understand they have a full complement of them.

Nice to hear from you, by the way, old friend.Okay, middle aged friend.:D

Regards,
John

kusanku
1st August 2002, 01:24
Bryan-
Good post. I guess I was wrong about the Kojo Ryu, Hsing Yi connection, because Joe Swift has personal experience of the system, and he says its Okinawan karate, and I take his word for it because he is over there, speaks Japanese, trains with the instructors and knows his stiuff.

Joe is a known quantity, I also know wherte you come from, and c=vice versa.

Why is it important who studied under whom?because, if you did study with someone who knows whart he was doing, then we all know you really know what you are talking about.

Now, if I or anyone, come on here, start talking about how I got this art that is better than anything, but it is an art you never heard of, lineage is not important, and by Gum, nothing else is either, well, I MAY be speaking the truth, but are you gonna just buy it no matter what?

I wouldn't.Now, Jason has taken responsibility for us getting off the track on the applications of morote uke, and I respect that. He has also said, that his applications/bunaki were Dillman stuff, and i respect that he admitted that, because there is a world of difference between Dillman stuff, and that tuite and atemi jutsu and kyusho jutsu taught by Taika Oyata and also chin na as taught by Yang,Jwing-Ming or William C.C. Ch'en, for that matter.

He has said that he would talk the same to anyone, well, one should learn, I feel, how to approach people such that you do not immediately alienate them, and this is a skill that can indeed be learned.His reply to you shows that perhaps he is learning, and I respect that, too.

I would not say, for instance to Joe Swift, say, Joe, what the heck do you know about Japan, because, he lives there and I do not.

Where I live, is a world where things have been shown me, by my instructors, that, maybe, many others never have seen, but I know there are some, here on this forum, that have seen, and done, more of them , perhaps, than I.

There are some very powerful and very deep teachers of the martial arts here,and one should speak with respect to them.Me, I'm just John, anyone can say anything they want to, to me, but I reserve the right to reply in kind.:D

When however, someone I have never heard of, speaks of an art I also never heard of, from a teacher I also never heard of, and says basically that everything I and the others here have been doing is a waste of time and levels below what they are doing, well, By Gum, I just don't believe that.

After thirty eight years in martial arts, at age fifty, and having been taught by students of some of the best in the world, in many arts,Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan,Korean and Indonesian and American,I have at least seen some of the highest level stuff in the world, and have in fact, got some clue as to how at least one trains to learn it,and I have to say, by my observations, not many people can defeat a fifth dan Olympic Judo competitor,or a Pro Boxer, or some of the Okinawan or Chinese stylists I have seen, met , or viewed even on video.

No one could defeat Morijei Uyeshiba, Ch'eng Man-Ching, or Taika Oyata, nor Kyuzo Mifune of Judo. They all took decades to learn what they learned, and if there were a way they could have done it faster, they would have. I know something aboiut how these men all trained, as their students have told me about this and other things.

Naturally, if someone approaches me with courtesy and respect, and says, say, John, what if there's a better way, would you like to know it, I will say, Why, sure I would,, spell it out, Pardner!:D

But that is not what happened here. I was approached in this manner: Everything you know is unnecessary and useless.I think to myself, what, does this guy know me, was he there when this and that happened, to say this? Was there a more efficient manner I could have sent the Taiji Instructor, a master under William C.C.Ch'en, flying with his own energy?Such that he had me come and do seminars for them in Bllomington?

Was there a more effective manner I could have struck the karateka's arms, and knocked them unconscious, TKO, or was there a better way I could have tai sabaki'ed and pulled a Dillman Black Belt's hair, knocking him unconscious with a tug of a lock of hair three inches straight up?

Was there a better way I could have clotheslined with irimi nage, the JKD fighter who came at me with a straight blast, or taken the Hapkido black belt with a ko uchi gari makikomi, or outpointed the heavyweight Golden Glover with an elbow strike that made him quit, after he said he didn't believe in karate?

Was there a better way I could have used a karate fighter's roundhouse kicking leg as an arm for a seioinage and taken him over, make a wish?:D

I don't think so, but maybe there was?

Then someone who never met me and doesn't know me or anyone who does know me, except he's heard my name on the internet,but has he read mny articles at the Baylor Karate Club's website under the name Genjumin's world, where I explain kata breakdown and analysis in some detail, for Shotokan people mainly,but its fromthe Chinese and Okinawan and Japanese sources I learnt from,comes on here, and says, 'All that you focus on is wrong, incorrect, unnecessary, and I will teach you the True Way.

What True Way?After what, even though I am no master, never will be, and don't want to be,I have been shown and learned, even though there is more, i have some clue what it may be, believe me.If there is a way that is so above what all has been shown me, how come no one before, ever heard of it? I mean, when I started karater, I heard that kata contained secrets and secret principles and techniques and so it does.No one lied about that to me.

So, I say, people that want to approach me, or anyone , publicly, as oopposed to privately, if you try to make me look like an idiot in public, you better have the goods to back that up.If I respond in kind to you, after all, 'answer a fool according to his folly ' is a Proverb, because it is so true.

next time, try this approach: May it not be that, gentlmen, there is a better way?And may this better way not be thus and such? Then, a discussion will ensue.But that its result will be pleasing to all I cannot promise. Those of us in the martial arts so long as we have been, have heard a lot of Bull Shwat.We are acustomed not to deal with it in kindly manner.

Many people truly believe themselves and their arts to be invincible, simply because they have been exposed to only so much in their own.I don't care, particularly.I don't claim incvincibility for myself and for my arts, just common sense and good results proportional to ability, training and learning.

But there are laws of physics, and these are inescapable, and no one I ever saw can defy them with impunity, while those who well use them generally do all right.

regards,

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 02:22
Dear John

Actually, I really do not know who you are, or are supposed to be. Sorry Pal, I guess we run in different circles. So I read up on you on the net after your post, and oh hey, I guess you are someone. Does that make you feel better? I hope so, cause I am not used to having to stroke someone’s ego just to get a conversation, which STILL HAS NOT GOTTEN ANYWHERE!!!!!! How many times do I have to try? How often must you tell me and everyone else who you are??? You signed your posted as Kusanku, John Genjumin Vengel, so I do not know which Identity you are going by. I just picked one. Guess it was the wrong one?

Look, obviously you do not wish to talk about what I thought was to be an interesting topic. My first e-mail, while being a bit of a bomb was meant to do that. Buddy, I got sick of hearing "what’s your favourite technique" "What's your favourite kata" "Kata vs. sparring" etc etc blah blah blah.

I merely tried (and hey I failed!!!!!!) to stir the pot, get the life back into things, and get people to talk about something THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT!!!

Obviously it isn't working. I never claimed to be a master, and I never claimed to be something I am not. I was merely attempting to give something back that took me 20 years to find. Prove me wrong! Prove to me and everyone else, that I am wrong when I say that there is absolutely no difference between a kakie uke and a nikkyo. Prove to me that the kakie uke is different than a gunt.

Prove to me, sir that there is absolutely no difference between them, other than "application", or "essence". Prove to me that since all movement and motion on the human body MUST BE the same between an Aikidoka, Karateka, Gung Fu stylist, Escrimador etc that techniques are labels, and that you do not have to memorize technique, but the principles behind it. Prove to me, that I have to remember fancy Japanese words, in order to defend myself. Prove to me that I cannot take a movement in Shotokan, and show that the same bloody thing is in American Kenpo, Arnis, and Gung Fu. Prove to me, please kind sir, that I cannot take a motion from White Crane, mix it with a motion from Wing Chun, and teach someone Arnis.

Prove to me that a famous high-ranking martial artist can talk about these things to some dumb smuck who thought he could share? Prove to me the topic I tried to discuss is approachable to individuals other than me.

Prove to me I do not have to write this type of a letter, begging for someone to actually stay on topic, end up arguing and doing the same old pissing contest as usual.

Prove to me the martial arts community is not that far gone.

Prove me wrong, or prove me right. Either way, I remain your fan.

Jason.

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 04:31
I love cheap shots from other areas of the e-budo forum.

thanks.

there it goes again.

Tatsu
1st August 2002, 04:36
Originally posted by Khahan

I would actually reverse this. Kata, to me, is the pigeon-holed specific movements strung together. Bunkai is the general index of theory which allows me to see the specifics applied.
Through bunkai, you can see that the motions you make in kata can be referenced in striking or grappling. Punching or kicking. Attacking or defending.

Yeah I can see that... Still, I like it my way, hahaha! I tried to be diplomatic this time. Hope I didn't offend anyone with my perspective... Hollar!

Tatsu
1st August 2002, 04:49
Originally posted by kusanku
Bryan-
Good post. I guess I was wrong about the Kojo Ryu, Hsing Yi connection, because Joe Swift has personal experience of the system, and he says its Okinawan karate, and I take his word for it because he is over there, speaks Japanese, trains with the instructors and knows his stiuff.

Joe is a known quantity, I also know wherte you come from, and c=vice versa.

Why is it important who studied under whom?because, if you did study with someone who knows whart he was doing, then we all know you really know what you are talking about.


Sensei- Thank you for the kind words. Kojo Ryu and all Karate may have a connection to Internal Arts like Hsing Yi and Bagua. I just know that Crane plays highly into this system of Ryukyuan Karate.
I think I noted a bit of arrogance on the Shifus part and thought that I would give my angle. You and I have had the privilege to train with some awesome fighters. I agree with most everything you said. I don't think I can say the same about this Sifu guy... Maybe he did too but didn't glean the same lessons! I dunno, civility is not my strong suit, but I tried. Later sir.

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 05:05
Brian:

I apologize for sounding arrogant, but hey, how many posts have been on what I started talking about compared to posts attacking individuals on both sides of the fence????

well, do the math. This beef with Genjumin and me is absolutely ridiculous. But like the energizer bunny, it keeps going.

He is even taking it to other forums on e-budo.

Sorry but my math says it is all messed up.

I asked for intelligent conversation. WHERE THE HECK IS IT?

I guess I wasted my breath. We could be talking about principles, concepts and theories, and how you can pull them from your techniques.
You can do this to the point that the technique becomes nothing more than a method to teach the higher material.

The responses are killing me. Instead of talking about high level stuff, we are pissing away time and space on this forum. 4 pages in total. My post started on page 2. Read them. where did the conversation go?

down the tubes.

If scratching my head and getting all confused at this is arrogant, well i guess. Not my fault noone wants to talk.

I guess I should have said.......


Besides Morote Uke....whats your favourite technique!!!!!!!


sincerely frsutrated...

Jason.

Khahan
1st August 2002, 16:58
Yeah I can see that... Still, I like it my way, hahaha! I tried to be diplomatic this time. Hope I didn't offend anyone with my perspective... Hollar!

Tatsu, no offense taken. Its merely a difference of opinion, or possibly even more just semantics.
I still don't agree that bunkai can/will become useless.
I've seen bunkai used/applied/taught by Kosho students from white belt up to Hanshi. Now granted, I will approach bunkai differently from a white belt and I will garner different info from it.
At the same time, Hanshi Juchnik will approach it differently and garner different information from bunkai than I will.
But its still usefull to all levels.

kusanku
2nd August 2002, 00:06
Originally posted by Genkidokan
[B]Dear John[/quote

Uh Oh, a Dear John Letter.This can't be good.:D


[quote]Actually, I really do not know who you are, or are supposed to be.

You sure don't, and you don't recognize humor when you see it , either, Learn to, life will be a lot easier.:-)



Sorry Pal, I guess we run in different circles.

Or run around in circles in different ways, one.


So I read up on you on the net after your post, and oh hey, I guess you are someone.

Or so it seems, but no one knows to whom the voice of the invisible Shadow belongs.Or somethign like that.They like me, they really like me.:D



Does that make you feel better?

Neither better nor worse, actually.I could care less.Om.



I hope so, cause I am not used to having to stroke someone’s ego just to get a conversation, which STILL HAS NOT GOTTEN ANYWHERE!!!!!!

Courtesy and civility is not stroking ego'es , Son.Its just the way business is done in polite society.In the older times, lack of courtesy often resulted in duels to the death. I'm glad those days are gone.Still, it is wiser, to approach people with courtesy, than sound like say, an arrogant boor who thinks they know everything and that you know nothing, when you don't even know who you're talking to.Just common sense, sorta.

As for the conversation not geting anywahere, you will recall, we were discussing applications of morote uke.Morote uke is also called chudan no kamae, middle guarding posture, and is iused in many Okinawan and Chinese arts as a mid range ready stance and posture, as from it all areas can be quiclkly reached and defended.It can metamorphose into any technique needed, in either throwing , locking, evading, holding or striking, grappling.



How many times do I have to try?

Till you get it right?


How often must you tell me and everyone else who you are???

As often as you tell me and everyone else who you are?Just guessing, here.:-)


You signed your posted as Kusanku,

My autmoatic netsig is Kusanku, Genkidokan. Ooops, you do it too!


John Genjumin Vengel, so I do not know which Identity you are going by. I just picked one. Guess it was the wrong one?{/quote]

Are you Jason , or that Chinese name you posted?

[quote]Look, obviously you do not wish to talk about what I thought was to be an interesting topic. My first e-mail, while being a bit of a bomb was meant to do that.

Totally alienate a bunch of folks? Good job.:D


Buddy, I got sick of hearing "what’s your favourite technique" "What's your favourite kata" "Kata vs. sparring" etc etc blah blah blah.

Well, Old Pal, I got sick of hearing, I have the ultimate Way, the Way of No Way, Krap, long time before you probably ever put on a gi.But that's my problem and this is yours.Don't make it mine.


I merely tried (and hey I failed!!!!!!) to stir the pot, get the life back into things, and get people to talk about something THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT!!!

And I explaine why and where you failed, and how to have the best chance to succeed here. Let me advise;start a new thread, post what you want, and see who bites, and do it your way. Don't begin by sidetracking another thread, not by the way started by me, asking what the applications might be for a techniques from an Okinawan Kata. which I was merely atempting to contribute to, not to take over the whole thread.. Here you are with a kung fu system, as you say, that was off topic as could be, and it was my reply you chose to light into, and that was your tough luck, as I am used to dealing with stuff like this, so are others here.


Obviously it isn't working.[quote]

Try the Cyberkwoon, you are a kungfu guy.See who is interested.Or if you must start here, start a new thread on a forum that is related to what you do.Maybe the CQC Forum.Be polite, and coutrrteous. Otherwise, we have a place here called the No Holds Bar and Grill:D which might be where to have a flamewar.

[quote]I never claimed to be a master, and I never claimed to be something I am not.

Let me in all friendliness give you some hints here, never ever sign your posts sensei, sifu, or whatever. That ain';t your name and no one cares.I don't sign shihan, sensei or guro, grandmastadore, or whatever.Cause, I am not that, my name is John, really it is.I don't sign with ranks or whatever, styles or whatever.Its just me, just be you. Jason Ward or your Chinese name would be fine, use what netsig you want, but use one name.

Immediately, we here who see something like sensei on a name, ask, how'd ytou get that name?

As to claim to be a master, who in their right mind , would claim to be that? But sayiong things like, you can teach all the techniques of all the martioal arts, with two moves, my friend, you can not KNOW all the techniques of all the martial arts, life isn't that long.


I was merely attempting to give something back that took me 20 years to find. Prove me wrong!

Sir, you made the above claims. The burden of proof falls upon you, not me.Prove yourself right.



Prove to me and everyone else, that I am wrong when I say that there is absolutely no difference between a kakie uke and a nikkyo.

Big deal. I knew that as a green belt.Most people do.



Prove to me that the kakie uke is different than a gunt.

I have no idea what a gunt is, unless its a Filipino nerve pick, like a gunting.But I'm sure you are right, and I am sure, this is no great revelation.The moves, if you read my Baylor articles, can be used for many diferent things.


Prove to me, sir that there is absolutely no difference between them, other than "application", or "essence".

No, you want me to prove there is a difference. I am not goiung to, read my arrticles and posts, been there, done that.


Prove to me that since all movement and motion on the human body MUST BE the same between an Aikidoka, Karateka, Gung Fu stylist, Escrimador etc that techniques are labels, and that you do not have to memorize technique, but the principles behind it.

I am on record on the Net, as far back as 1997, saying all martial arts are one.Where were you., Sir?But I think too, you need technique as well as principles, or you have substance without form.


Prove to me, that I have to remember fancy Japanese words, in order to defend myself.

Never said you did, said you don't in fact, AMAKS Archives, 1997.



Prove to me that I cannot take a movement in Shotokan, and show that the same bloody thing is in American Kenpo, Arnis, and Gung Fu.

I'm on record as showing people how to do the same thing, back then, five years ago, learned how to, ten years or more ago.Nothing new here.



Prove to me, please kind sir,

Kinder than you think.:-)


that I cannot take a motion from White Crane, mix it with a motion from Wing Chun, and teach someone Arnis.

Only oif you KNOW Arnis, otheriwse , you can't.Common sense. Also, the Okinawans called a technique combined with another from the sasme form or another form, which extends to another art, kumi awase, or that is what one such teacher calls it, so the concept is hardly unknown to old style karateka.


Prove to me that a famous high-ranking martial artist can talk about these things to some dumb smuck who thought he could share?

Let this post suffice to prove that.If I am a famous high ranking martial artist, I think of myself as an obscure middle ranked martial artist, who happened to wind up sharing some thoughts on the net, amidst a forestorm that singed most others off forever, and stayed to become one of the most beloeved characters of martial internet folklore in the West.:D


Prove to me the topic I tried to discuss is approachable to individuals other than me.

I dunno, Jason, ya need to work on your people skills, and your posting style, I think that would help you a ton. Plus, don't be so thin-skinned, its only a newsgroup. Believe me, this is good advice.


Prove to me I do not have to write this type of a letter, begging for someone to actually stay on topic,

Topic=applications for morote uke.Who took us off topic, you already admitted. I respect that, Jason.But for cryin' out loud Man, start a new thread, and invite discussion on your own terms, see who bites, do it your way.


end up arguing and doing the same old pissing contest as usual.


That is entirely up to you .


Prove to me the martial arts community is not that far gone.


Can't prove one way or another, I got lots friends.


Prove me wrong, or prove me right. Either way, I remain your fan.

So you DO know who I am!:DDawse Great John Genjumin Vengel III, Esq., often imitated, never duplicated, scourge of AMAKS, and polite regular poster to the fine e-budo forums, where many people dwell with far far more knopwledge than have i, and at whose tables I humbly eavesdrop , gleaning much wisdom and knoweldge therefrom, having a few laughs, and in general, palling around with my buddies and peers here.Also asking the occasional question of those with much more expertise in particular areas than mine, Love that Aikijujiuts forum.By the way, watch out for the gang at the Judo Forum, we're a rough and ready lot, but good humoured withal.:D

Regards and best of luck on the new thread, call it what you will and decide where you will post it, maybe on another forum, maybe this one.See what you can come up with.Who knows, maybe I may even visit.

Put you r concepts and ideas into short sentences, approach couteously, and as an equal, and you may succeed.Next thing you know, you too may be world famous like me, Mr. Mambo I mean, Dawse Vengel.

kusanku
2nd August 2002, 00:15
Originally posted by Tatsu
[B]

Sensei- Thank you for the kind words.[quote]

Kindness begets kindness, I forget who said that.

[quote] Kojo Ryu and all Karate may have a connection to Internal Arts like Hsing Yi and Bagua.

Some think even Shorin ryu may be relarted to Hsing yi, as Goju is to Pakua apparently.I don't really know, one way or the other. I suppose this could be possible though.



I just know that Crane plays highly into this system of Ryukyuan Karate.[.quote]

There does appear to be a Crane Connection, definitely, the Bubishi shows that much for sure.

[quote]I think I noted a bit of arrogance on the Shifus part and thought that I would give my angle.

Yes, I think we are on the same page here, I mentioned to him, that was a sort of red flag, for many here.But all can change and learn, if they want to,and no one is perfect, sure not me.:D


You and I have had the privilege to train with some awesome fighters.

Yes we have, and that is an inestimable privilege as martial arts go.When you see how they do it, you have a clue for sure.


I agree with most everything you said. I don't think I can say the same about this Sifu guy... Maybe he did too but didn't glean the same lessons!

Well, understanding is conditional upon perception, and perception on vision, and if we see the same things differently, we understand them differently. We should however, never be sure, that ours is the only way, or necessarily the best.yes, when you see who we saw, they kind of see with the same eye, and so do we, I guess.


I dunno, civility is not my strong suit, but I tried. Later sir.

Well Bryan, sometimes I fall short there too.Like I said, no one is perfect.:-)But I try too.Guess that's all anyone can do.:D
Regards

kusanku
2nd August 2002, 00:30
Originally posted by Genkidokan
[B]Brian:

I apologize for sounding arrogant, but hey, how many posts have been on what I started talking about compared to posts attacking individuals on both sides of the fence????

well, do the math. This beef with Genjumin and me is absolutely ridiculous. But like the energizer bunny, it keeps going.

He is even taking it to other forums on e-budo.

Sorry but my math says it is all messed up.

I asked for intelligent conversation. WHERE THE HECK IS IT?

You did not ask for intelligent conversation. You demanded total reverent subission tomyour understanding of martial arts, on a thread answering a person's questions about what you could do with the three morite uke in PINAN four?That was intelligent?


I guess I wasted my breath. We could be talking about principles, concepts and theories, and how you can pull them from your techniques.

Start a new thread on that subject, and let me know if you want me to not post there, I wiill respect your choice. I am civilized, really.:D



You can do this to the point that the technique becomes nothing more than a method to teach the higher material.

Post exact examples of how to do this. This is how my stuff got on Internet sites btw.I put down how to do this clearly.


The responses are killing me. Instead of talking about high level stuff, we are pissing away time and space on this forum. 4 pages in total. My post started on page 2. Read them. where did the conversation go?

And, again, you are being stopped from starting a new thread and posting all your ideas, by whom and how? Get off here and do it, Man!Its a technique, a concept, a principle, if you are getting bogged down, start an thread and post your stuff, forget about me or anyone else, just do it! Don't you know how to disengage?:D


down the tubes.

And this you blame on me? START A NEW THREAD, post your concepts on as many forums here as you are relevant to, go to other boards, do the same their, try the cyberkwoomn, stop moaning about what happened to you, you brought it all on yourself, read my posts, I tell you how to fix it, try it.Learn.


If scratching my head and getting all confused at this is arrogant, well i guess. Not my fault noone wants to talk.

YES IT IS!If you come on like a jerk, people don't want to talk to you,try polite, it works well.

God, what if I, a mere sankyu in Kodokan Judo, went on the Judo forum talking to the eighth dans on there as though they were children?Can you say, Roast Vengel?Sheeesh!I came on there, and told then exactly what I was, no more. Get a clue!Fix your attitude, get to know people, then present your POV and prepare to defend it.


I guess I should have said.......[.quote]

Live and learn,. put it behind you and move forward. Listen to good advice. talk to people as you would have them talk to you. Don't you like people to adderess you courteously? Isn't martial arts to begin and end with courtesy?You need to think about the effect of your words before you hit the send key. believe me. I made every mistake there was, and paid for it, when I came to the net.Learn from my mistakes and your own, and improve your style, and go forward to share your ideas. And keep one more thing in mind;maybe just maybe,those you speak with, may also have something to share.
So, you might try listening, once in a while, and don't be too sure you or your teacher have the patent on fire or the wheel.

Okay?
You Take Care now,Y'Heah?




[quote]sincerely frsutrated...
Read, heed and act in accordance with good advice, and you will be frustrated no longer.

Khahan
2nd August 2002, 16:06
Kusanku and Genkidokan,
Could you two please take the personal issues being raised to PM and allow this thred to continue developing into a discussion of bunkai?
The extremely long posts quoting individual lines and giving 2 paragraph responses for a personal debate which has nothing to do with bunkai is really making it difficult to follow the thread.

kusanku
2nd August 2002, 16:18
Hi Greg-
If genkidokan will take the advice I gave him,which is by the eway of general use for anyone who wishes to do well on the net, and start a new thread, I am sure everyone can continue posting their understandings of the uses of morote uke.

Such as sokumen irimi nage, kote gaeshi with front hand and close punch with rear hand,ulnar blow with front arm to neck and dropping backfist with rear hand to abdomen, as abs cannot resist downward blows,Arm crank turnover using both arms, as a projectio, one arm ikkyo nage with front hand and kidney blow or assisting push with rear, Elbow crank/lock using both hands in exactly that position,strikes to the deltoid mound and inside arm at funny bone combined with arm crank into hammerlock,punch under to gedan area with strike over to head followed by double uppercut,scoop to kicking leg with front block and crank of captured ankle with rear hand,arm trap using both hands of block and step forward to off balance backwards, and finally,any series of three using any combination of the above or any other applications, but that should suffice for now.

That what you mean?
You have a nice day, now,hear, and enjoy your apps.:D I apologize for it taking so long for me to post them, as I was a little occupied there for a minute.But, taking my own advice, and yours, here they are.

kusanku
2nd August 2002, 16:24
Add to the above apps, slanting flying from taiji, and use to uproot opponent and send them flying up and back to a corner, or reverse the arm motion and get a hammerfist armbreak or trap, or pincer strike inwards with both hammerfists.That makes it a Baker's Dozen applications.

There are more, but I am not greedy, everyone else can put theirs on here, now.

gmanry
4th August 2002, 21:22
Kusanku,

I like the slant flying, that is usually the approach I use to introduce the basic kihon of morote uke. Always fun to watch the horror on their faces as they realize their balance is completely shattered with a single step.

Just wanted to say that.

Others that I use are Tai Otoshi (no leg block), suppression with rear hand and uraken to head targets followed by rear throw by hair and tricept skin (similar to my original post but slightly different), neck wrench or break (!) with hair and chin, Leg trap: rear hand traps and front hand disbalances in some manner, shuffle off same front leg to new angle and execute second morote to face plant target and possibly wrench leg. Patrick McCarthy shows a nice arm bar out of the kata Nepai using morote uke. Slightly different execution from P4.

The principles of the movement are rotational sequencing with the feet, hips and shoulders (very tiny circles moving in counter balance), while maintaining the ability to project through the skeletal structure as it is turning.

kusanku
5th August 2002, 04:37
Originally posted by gmanry
[B]Kusanku,

I like the slant flying, that is usually the approach I use to introduce the basic kihon of morote uke. Always fun to watch the horror on their faces as they realize their balance is completely shattered with a single step.

Yeah, Glenn, that's cool. I also realized after I wrote the last post, that Ward Off and morote uke are same movement, basically.Sometimes called Ward Off Upwards.




Others that I use are Tai Otoshi (no leg block), suppression with rear hand and uraken to head targets followed by rear throw by hair and tricept skin (similar to my original post but slightly different), neck wrench or break (!) with hair and chin, Leg trap: rear hand traps and front hand disbalances in some manner, shuffle off same front leg to new angle and execute second morote to face plant target and possibly wrench leg. Patrick McCarthy shows a nice arm bar out of the kata Nepai using morote uke. Slightly different execution from P4.

Hmm, good ones all.Have we covered them, now or are there more? Anyone?Jump in, water's fine.

Anyhow, that's all of them I know, and then a few.:D


The principles of the movement are rotational sequencing with the feet, hips and shoulders (very tiny circles moving in counter balance), while maintaining the ability to project through the skeletal structure as it is turning.

I concur. Thorough analysis of morote uke body mechanics.Also, three methods I know of doing morote uke: cup and saucer as in Matsubayashi ryu, crossing as in Okinawan Kenpo, and swingback as in Shotokan and Kyokushinkaikan.Each enables different particular applications in prep for the morote uke itself.

It actually, is quite a versatile movement.Plus being used as a preparation for fighting posture.Similar to Lift Hands In Tai Chi, come to that.

Walt Harms
5th August 2002, 19:30
All,

Well ------ its been a long trip but at least the discussion is back
to the bunkai of morote uke, I was asking the first question because
I was teaching pinan/heinan 4 to a group of students and was looking for different view points. Also a have a long time quest/battle with kata a performance art vs kata as a pratical teaching/pratice tool.
I firmly believe that kata esp. classical kata contain much of what needs to be taught and that kihon, kihon, kihon is answer to most questions.

Walt Harms
and thanks for all the input

the Khazar Kid
23rd August 2002, 05:57
Love all the bunkai for morote uke!

I have actually used it as a reinforced block of sorts in free sparring. With the elbow, since the reinforcement is at elbow level, one can intercept/counterstrike full power punches and kicks.

Jesse Peters