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Son of Thunder
10th July 2002, 05:36
I have never owned a pistol, though I have shot several of my father's. What with college and graduate school, I've been flat broke for years. However, now that there's light at the end of my academic tunnel and the prospect of gainful employment looms in the near future, I'm starting to shop around.

As a newbie, I am naturally overwhelmed by the possibilities.

What would you recommend as a good first pistol that would be a useful self-defense weapon but not "too much gun" for a first-timer? I've been reading about the reliability and solid design of Glocks and the various Desert Eagles, but I'm having a hard time separating the facts from the corporate hype. And what about revolvers?

I. B. Confused. :mst:

John Lindsey
10th July 2002, 06:06
I use a Glock 19. Some pistol ranges will let you rent guns to try out. You need to find you that feel good to you too. The Glock fits my hand well and points nicely. I used to use a Colt .45 for many years, but sold em for the Glock!

Jody Holeton
10th July 2002, 07:55
Dear Son,

Have you looked at the Beretta line?

Make some friends at your local gun range, take a gun safety class, and try out some different types.

I am no expert BUT I have had some experience with Kimber, Glock, Beretta etc.


See what feels good for you and what you like.

Have fun--Jody

George Kohler
10th July 2002, 08:15
Charles,

AAARRRR!!!! You don't know what you just did. Pretty soon this thread will turn into "This gun is the best..." or "No, this gun is the best." Then it will go into which caliber is best. Hope you find what your looking for.

I hope I'm wrong.

You did mention self defense. Is this for home defense?

lemming
10th July 2002, 08:59
I prefer something smaller, a bit on the lighter side. I've got a .44 revolver that's just a bit too heavy (or not heavy enough, kicks a bit when I fire), and a Taurus PT92 (9mm, 15 round mags) which is also pretty heavy. I just find that smaller guns fit more comfortably and feel more natural, like an extension of the hand. Taurus has a line of revolvers which seem pretty nice, though I think a bit pricy. Their titanium line is popular with a bunch of my friends.

Exorcist_Fist
10th July 2002, 09:04
What are you going to use it for? I remember the first time I went shooting, with a gun nut buddy. I used a .50 caliber, a glock 10MM, a .357, and a .44.

I didnt know anything about guns at the time, and I dont know much more, but what I do know is that for the first time you go shooting, or if you are planning on learning how, those guns are a might too much to start with.

Just my humble opinion.

Joseph Svinth
10th July 2002, 11:21
Perhaps we can set a ground rule to stay general rather than specific? If so, then this may avoid devolving into My Style (Weapon) Is Better Than Yours.

Let's start by looking at actions. Automatic pistols aren't really automatic, as those are machine guns. Instead, they are self-loading pistols. But for our purposes, we'll call them autos.

There are large frame autos and small frame autos. Large frame autos carry lots of ammo in large calibers, but generally put a big bulge under your jacket. Small frame autos don't carry much ammunition and often shoot pipsqueak calibers, but can be small enough to carry in your sock.

There are also large frame revolvers and small frame revolvers. As a rule, revolvers carry 5-6 cartridges, though there are some .22 revolvers that carry more. Depending on the action of the revolver and its age, you might want to carry the hammer on an empty chamber. In any event, revolvers don't carry lots and lots of ammunition. On the other hand, they can reliably feed a wider variety of bullets than most autos, and if the piece misfires, you simply pull the trigger again (if double action) or cock and pull the trigger again (if single action).

Both revolvers and autos come in single and double action. Single action means that you have to manually cock the hammer for the first round on an auto (jacking the slide does this). Double action means that if you pull the trigger, the hammer pulls back and then drops. The advantage of the double action is that it lets you carry a round in the chamber. For people who don't practice much, this means that they can get off a first shot quicker than if they have to work an action or cock a hammer. However, if you practice a lot, then this is fairly irrelevant. Montana Ed McGivern, for instance, used to shoot five standard loads from a single-action Army .45 (the cowboy gun)into a playing card, in about 3/4 of a second. Ed was faster with a double action .38, though, putting five rounds into the playing card in .45/100ths of a second. Of course, I wouldn't count on this kind of speed anytime soon if I were you.

Speed isn't everything, though -- aiming is important, too. Breathe, center, relax. Where have we heard that before?

I digress. As a rule:

1. Longer barrels are more accurate than shorter barrels and heavier weapons have less perceived recoil than lighter weapons. Thus long-barreled, large-frame revolvers shooting light ammunition can be accurate to astonishing ranges. Elmer Keith, for instance, used to shoot running jackrabbits with a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum at ranges over 300 yards.

2. Lightweight, short-barreled pistols are more concealable. Thus, there are still many people who carry .38 snubbies as belly guns. That said, proper holster design has a lot to do with concealability, and a good holster can disguise a large auto better than a poor holster can disguise a small revolver. Good holsters can be made from leather, plastic, or nylon, but are never cheap. Good belts are important, too. They aren't cheap, either.

For self-defense, the design of the cartridge is critical. Thus a .38 Special +P hollowpoint is arguably a better self-defense cartridge than a .45 ACP military hardball. (The .38s that didn't work on Moros in the Philippines were not chambered in .38 Special, but .38 Long Colt, and the ballistics of .38 Long Colt are roughly equivalent to a .32 Special, meaning anemic. The revolvers they went into weren't very good, either. Anyway, don't judge a modern .38 Special cartridge by the performance of a 19th century cartridge of a similar name.) Manufacturers have different loads, too. Consequently, your piece may just adore one brand but misfire regularly on another. This is less of a problem for revolvers than it is for automatics, but I still recall a batch of hard primers on Winchester-Western ammo that often took two hits of the hammer to make go bang. This was simply annoying on the range, but would have been unfortunate in a self-defense load.

Regarding caliber (the size of the bore), I wouldn't suggest anything smaller than .38 Special/9mm for serious self-defense. .357/10mm have better ballistics, but also come in larger packages, and that may not be a tradeoff you want to make.

Nonetheless, the perfect pistol and the perfect cartridge are useless if you can't hit the sea when firing from the rail of the ship. Pistol shooting is an art, and coaching can help. Still, no amount of coaching can help someone who doesn't practice. (The trick to fancy revolver shooting, said Ed McGivern, was some commonsense figuring and about 20,000 rounds of ammunition.) If you load your own, then shooting isn't horribly expensive, but if you don't, then you can be looking at as much as a buck or two per shot. If you're rich, this isn't a problem. But if you aren't, well, you might want to start out with something you can afford to shoot.

This brings us to a weapon I haven't mentioned before, namely the .22 Long Rifle. The cartridge is accurate, fun to shoot, and best of all, cheap. There are some really nice pistols made for it, too. See, for example, the Sturm Ruger catalog at http://www.ruger-firearms.com/ . (To find the .22s, look for "rimfire. The reference is to primer types -- with the exception of .22s, most modern handgun cartridges are centerfire.)

Finally, no matter what firearm you use, please be safe. Take a safety class, and remember -- always treat firearms as if loaded, and never point one at anything that you would not want to kill or damage.

Soulend
10th July 2002, 11:24
but unfortunately, a lot of people seem to turn up their noses at wheelguns these days. Seems that they are no longer 'cool'. All the same, I would recommend a quality .357 caliber revolver, preferably stainless. There are a number of reasons for this:

Reliability. Revolvers will not misfeed or experience stoppages. I have known only one revolver to 'jam' (a buddies'), and this was due to excessive crud in the lockwork. It has to be pretty bad for a wheelgun to seize up on you.

Simplicity. There are no safeties, magazine releases, slide releases or anything to manipulate to get the gun into action. If it's loaded, it's ready to go. In a high stress environment, one of the first things to go are your fine-motor skills, and you don't want to have to fool with little safety catches if you are not yet used to doing so under a variety of conditions. Also, with a double action revolver it is easy to ascertain whether it's loaded or not at a glance.

Interchangablity and accessibility. For practice, or for reduced power, a .357 can be loaded with .38 rounds. In the house, mine is loaded with .38 +P Hydrashoks for reduced noise and muzzle blast(shooting in a darkened structure with full-house .357's is quite an experience). Either one of these rounds can be bought anywhere in the U.S., unlike more exotic things like the .357 SIG or .50 AE. And there are a wide variety a bullet styles and weights to choose from.

"Stopping Power". In street shootings, the .357 125 grn SJHP has an outstanding record. Last I checked(several years ago) a 98% one-shot stop percentage, the highest of any handgun caliber, including monsters like the .44.

I own quite a few handguns, but if I could have just one it would be my Taurus .357 model 669. It was my first handgun- very accurate and have had zero problems out of it. With Pachmayr grips, it is one of the most naturally pointable weapons I have ever held.

Soulend
10th July 2002, 11:59
The 15 min. editing time limit and the neccesity of getting my lazy butt to work stopped me from one other point on the 'reliability' header..that is, lack of bullet preference. I've had several autos (some damn nice ones too) that were finicky about what types of rounds they would feed. With my Beretta, I went through three brands/bullet styles before I was satified that I had found one that would feed with enough reliability and was accurate enough to carry. With the revolver, as long as it's the right caliber, if it fits in the chamber it's going downrange...

O.K. that's it for me :)

John Lindsey
10th July 2002, 13:26
I merged these two threads into one.

Wheelguns are nice, but you cannot reload one while still having the ability to shoot.

Soulend
10th July 2002, 13:51
Originally posted by John Lindsey
I merged these two threads into one.

Wheelguns are nice, but you cannot reload one while still having the ability to shoot.

True enough, although I don't think this should be a big problem in a self defense situation..more important for police and military. Self defense situations involving civilians that turn into protracted gun combat with armed/multiple opponents must surely be pretty rare. I remember reading somewhere that the overwhelming majority of defensive shootings occur at ranges less than 7 yards. This makes sense to me, as at greater ranges one would be hard pressed to explain to a jury why he shot at someone so far away. It would seem that if one has to reload (or even has the opportunity to!) at this range, more target practice is probably in order...

Also, especially for someone without extensive training in firarms, I don't find it likely that they would be able to keep count of rounds fired in order to reload while the last round is in the chamber in such a stressful situation. In particular an autoloader packing 10-15 rounds.

I just would prefer a few powerful rounds rather than a bunch of little ones for most purposes :)

Charlie Kondek
10th July 2002, 14:51
If you guys don't mind my jumping in - maybe this should be a separate thread - do you think getting a handgun for home protection is a good idea? My wife and I have been thinking about it.

Soulend
10th July 2002, 15:55
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
If you guys don't mind my jumping in - maybe this should be a separate thread - do you think getting a handgun for home protection is a good idea? My wife and I have been thinking about it.

Sure, although it is a personal choice. Depending on the layout and spaciousness of your house, a shotgun or carbine is not bad either. If you have children, of course appropriate precautions should be taken.

Kit LeBlanc
10th July 2002, 16:09
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
If you guys don't mind my jumping in - maybe this should be a separate thread - do you think getting a handgun for home protection is a good idea? My wife and I have been thinking about it.

All I would add is that you should TRAIN with your weapons system, whatever it is. That means more than just the CCW class. Find a reputable range with a teaching curriculum and learn the basics of weapons handling, tactical movement (in your own house, yes!) etc. etc. besides shooting a lot.

"Buying a gun" for home defense is like starting martial arts for self defense...won't do you any good, and will probably be a liability, unless you take it seriously enough to practice a lot.

Try Sig and HK. Sigs have no safety, start out DA but then go to single action, and have a decock to return to DA. HK can be used either way, they have a safety AND the decock.

I wouldn't recommend cocking a DA/SA under stress.

CEB
10th July 2002, 23:00
Originally posted by Soulend
...
Interchangablity and accessibility. For practice, or for reduced power, a .357 can be loaded with .38 rounds. ...

Yes, Shooting specials is a lot cheaper than shooting .357 for practice purposes.

knotwell
11th July 2002, 15:50
Was a .380 auto. Unfortunately, I didn't fire it before purchase. As a result, I seldom shoot it 'cause it irritates my hand (I suppose I could get the offending area filed down).

Knowing what I know now. . .buy a model you've fired before and enjoy shooting.

In my case, this means a double-action* revolver chambered (preparing for the hoots of derision from the audience) for .22LR. Specifically, my wife and I have both been happy with the S&W Model 63.

*Several years ago, I read a column by Massad Ayoob making a reasonable case for picking double-action revolvers over single. His convincing, fundamental premise was DA revolvers are safer.

John Lindsey
11th July 2002, 16:05
Whats the situation these days on magazines? I bought my Glock just before they banned the "large" cap mags. How many rounds can you have in a mag now, and is it still easy to buy the pre ban mags?

Elliot Harris
11th July 2002, 18:58
First, I'd like to identify that I do not have any real expertese with handguns specifically.

But, I did serve as an infantryman for 3 years in Fairbanks, and I am more than familiar with firearms in general and arctic considerations specifically. As such I will not make any specific recommendations, but try to offer you some specific considerations that may be useful in narrowing the scope of choices.

You did say that you intended to use the weapon for self defense. As I recall anecdotally, weapons were used more often for defense against charging 1,000 - 2,000 lbs. + moose and bear than they were against people. As such I would imagine a large calibur would be preferred. A hunter friend of mine never went out with anything smaller than a .45.

Secondly, specific arctic environmental considerations need to kept at the forefront of decision making.

1. usually temps. avg -20 deg. F for 6+ mos of the year.

2. it is extreemly dry (1-2% humidity)

3. space is different in AK. There is a LOT of it, and things look closer in extreme cold than they do elsewhere.

As such I offer this:

- history of reliablity in extreme cold (some plastics have a tendancy to crack when fired in extreme cold)
- use only graphite lubricants as oils will gum-up
- you will be wearing HEAVY gloves most of the time so make sure you have a large trigger-well that you can then access easily
- easy safety and single action desirable (for ease of use/reliability)
- carry considerations: in winter, outside clothing (or at least in outer pockets) as the weapon will likely sweat and then freeze-up causing a malfunction if carried next to the body
- you will also probably want a weapon that is a little more accurate at longer ranges over concealment considerations (concealment was never much of a social issue in AK as I recall)

Obviously, talking to some of the locals (gun shop owners were always friendly and helpful with this kind of discussion) for more specifics, along with anyone else here who can address some of these issues with a little more depth.

Elliot

Soulend
17th July 2002, 11:13
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Whats the situation these days on magazines? I bought my Glock just before they banned the "large" cap mags. How many rounds can you have in a mag now, and is it still easy to buy the pre ban mags?

I believe 10 is the limit now, however 'pre-ban' mags are still all over the place...kinda makes me wonder if they aren't still being made...

Neil Hawkins
18th July 2002, 12:37
Joe Svinth wrote:

However, if you practice a lot, then this is fairly irrelevant. Montana Ed McGivern, for instance, used to shoot five standard loads from a single-action Army .45 (the cowboy gun)into a playing card, in about 3/4 of a second. Ed was faster with a double action .38, though, putting five rounds into the playing card in .45/100ths of a second. Of course, I wouldn't count on this kind of speed anytime soon if I were you.

That is incredible speed, he must have had strong wrists.

I have seen footage of guys shooting Action Match at the Bianchi cup getting six shots into six different falling plates from the holster in 3 seconds. I can barely do it in 6! I doubt I could even squeeze off five shots in under a second regardless of accuracy.

I'll have to go out searching the web for references to Ed McGivern now and find out more about him! Then off to the range to practice!

BTW. I have a Ruger Mk1 (.22 semi-auto), a S&W .357 and a Sig Sauer P226 (9mm semi-auto). I enjoy shooting all of them, the .22 is accurate and cheap, the .357 is loud and accurate over longer ranges and the Sig is just fun.

The only useful thing I have to add to the previous comments is that if you plan on shooting a lot, look into reloading. It is considerably cheaper than buying factory ammunition and you can tailor the load/projectile to your application.

Neil

Joseph Svinth
18th July 2002, 22:38
McGivern's book is Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting (Chicago: Follett Publishing, 1975). It's still in print. See, for example, http://www.gunbooksales.com/shooting.htm . There is video, too. See, for example, http://www.brianenos.com/pages/videos2.html .

For a picture of McGivern's .357 Magnum Colt Single Action Army, see http://www.horstheld.com/0-Colt-4.htm . You buy it (just $20,000), and they'll even throw in a first edition of his book (1938). Photos of McGivern's .38 Super appear at http://www.horstheld.com/0-Jordan.htm .

I saw Ross Seyfried, et al., at the IPSC Internationals in Jo'burg in 1979. It was astonishing what they did. In 1985, I also saw John Satterwaite of the H&K factory team give a demo of an MP5 rigged for covert use. (It was the briefcase rig.) Satteherwaite was also very impressive, once he took the gun back out of the briefcase and took the safety off.

TommyK
19th July 2002, 04:21
Greetings,

I am responding to this thread with the story of my first gun, as the original thread was entitled.

Having most of my family in law enforcement, I decided to get my NYC pistol license back in '84, to join the family on the range. It took about 9 months, close to $200, BUT I got a 'purchase order' to buy whatever I wanted for my first pistol.

I chose a S&W .357magnum, nickel plated (model 586)and still have it. I bought it because of the ability to shoot both .357 and .38 calibers, and the fact that I was 'allowed' to get it. A year or two later I applied for another purchase order, this time for a .22 S&W automatic (model 422). I bought it for the economical purpose of shooting .22's, which are cheaper than. 38's or .357's.

When I go to the range I usually shoot about 100 rounds of .22 caliber,50 rounds of .38 and then about 15 .357 rounds, to 'blow out' the barrel. Of course, this is at an indoor range, strictly supervised and video monitored. But, thats NYC.

I agree that we should not let this turn into a 'mine is better than yours' thread, and I thank Joe Svinth and others for the illuminating history and simplification of gun lore in previous responses.

I feel comfortable having the weapons in the house if needed for self-defense, but by complying with the law in NYC, it would have to be the second coming of the original revolution for me to get them out in time. However, for me, it satisified the purpose of doing something with family and friends in the area of law enforcement, and as I got into the art of shooting, I began to see it as 'violent' meditation.

The focus needed to consistently hit the center of the bull, or at least to try to hit it, reduces things to you and the target, the weapon, as in Kyudo, ceases to exist. It is you and the target.

In a pinch, the time spent shooting and the expertise gained, stand me in good stead if needed in a self defense scenario. Personally, I'd rather not be in a situation where I'd have to use it, but as in the Martial Arts, the skill is there if we need it; even though we practice for other reasons.

My 2 cents worth!

Regards,
TommyK
Tom Militello

Peace, Love and Understanding every time!

fuzzyweasel
25th July 2002, 22:10
Hope I'm not just repeating someone elses post, but man you guys post to long so I didn't even read em.

I have a Glock 23 myself, and have shot most models of the Glock (its nice to live near the US headquarters). I have not seen a gun range yet that didn't rent out Glocks so just look in the phone book if you are interested in em. Their web site is: http://www.glock.com/.

I think a Glock is a great gun for a new gun guy, or us sick sad gun freaks. The lack of an external safety is one of my favorite aspects of a Glock (fumbling for a switch at 4:00 am after hearing your door burst in isn't my idea of home defense), but is less of a cool thing if you have kids.

If you won't to spend a bit more cash a Sig is pretty sweet (http://www.sigarms.com/).

Hope that helped.