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Vile
10th July 2002, 13:46
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~mijuvi/iai/mugairyuu.html

I have just recently updated my Mugai ryu lineage page, thanks to kind help of Mr. Pasi Hellsten, Mr. Flemming Madsen for sending me material and Mr. Taneli Takala for helping with some of the kanji and their readings.

I hope you may find this page helpfull! All comments are more than wellcome.

Edit: Ofcourse it would be more of use if I'd put the link here :) (thanks Mr. Ian Remi)


-Mikko Vilenius

renfield_kuroda
15th July 2002, 03:23
Excellent page!
I study Mugai-ryu in Japan, and I can add one:
the 16th Soke after Shiokawa is
Niina Gosoke. I can email the kanji if you'd like.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

Gene Gabel
16th July 2002, 05:21
Originally posted by Vile
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~mijuvi/iai/mugairyuu.html

I have just recently updated my Mugai ryu lineage page, thanks to kind help of Mr. Pasi Hellsten, Mr. Flemming Madsen for sending me material and Mr. Taneli Takala for helping with some of the kanji and their readings.

I hope you may find this page helpfull! All comments are more than wellcome.

Edit: Ofcourse it would be more of use if I'd put the link here :) (thanks Mr. Ian Remi)


-Mikko Vilenius
.................................................

Much thanks Ville and Ren.. I will add this to my notebook .

Gene Gabel

Seishin
26th July 2002, 09:54
I would like to add to Renfield's information about the 16th Soke: Shiokawa Soke (15th) decided a couple of years ago to appoint four successors who will all bear the title of 16th soke. For the future the Ryu will thereby be divided into four new traditions (although I am sure that they will all work together to ensure the continuation and spread of Mugai Ryu): Kanto-den (Niina Katsutoshi), Chugoku-den (Kanezawa Kyoichi), Kansai-den (Konishi Osaichi) and Kyushu-den (Kai Kuniyuki). This is an unusual step, but I believe that Shiokawa Soke has realised that all these senior students of his have outstanding skills and will all be able to continue the Mugai Ryu Heido tradition. Also, it is to some extent "risky" to rely on one person only to continue the "true-line" of the school. Although this has been the case for most schools throughout history only to have one soke - there are unfortunately many examples of schools' lineages which have ended due to the death of a soke before the next soke has been designated.

I have just returned from Japan today. I participated in Kai Sensei's 35th anniversary of his dojo, Nippon Budoin Seibukan, in Nobeoka, Kyushu. Among the many masters who demonstrated their skills Shiokawa Soke was one of them. He is now 78 and in exceptionally good shape!

BTW: Kai Sensei has just released his new book on Mugai Ryu Iai Heido. It is a 160 page book with great pictures of all the kata as well as the two sets of kumitachi. Also a lot of important historical and technical information is found in the book. So far, it will be for sale privately through Nippon Budoin Seibukan and its foreign branches. As we are not organised as a "commercial shop" selling and distribution of the book will be done by sending us money directly and we will subsequently ship the book. The price for the book is Yen 10.000. Watch our web-site(http://www.seibukanbudo.org)for more information in the coming weeks.


Best regards,

Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan Denmark & England Shibu-Cho

Gene Gabel
26th July 2002, 10:08
Originally posted by Seishin
I

BTW: Kai Sensei has just released his new book on Mugai Ryu Iai Heido. It is a 160 page book with great pictures of all the kata as well as the two sets of kumitachi. Also a lot of important historical and technical information is found in the book. So far, it will be for sale privately through Nippon Budoin Seibukan and its foreign branches. As we are not organised as a "commercial shop" selling and distribution of the book will be done by sending us money directly and we will subsequently ship the book. The price for the book is Yen 10.000. Watch our web-site(http://www.seibukanbudo.org)for more information in the coming weeks.


Best regards,

Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan Denmark & England Shibu-Cho

...........................................................
Fleming San,

Did I misread that price of 10,000 yen? That is about $85 US Dollars....Whew


Gene Gabel

Seishin
26th July 2002, 10:13
No, unforunately the price is right... (Y 10.000). Since it is not beeing sold commercially and only printed in limited number of copies, it is unfortunately expensive to produce.

Flemming

Seishin
26th July 2002, 10:16
BTW: the book is only in "nihon-go" for now. However, we will be working on a translation to English as a separate booklet.

Flemming

Gene Gabel
26th July 2002, 10:33
Originally posted by Seishin
BTW: the book is only in "nihon-go" for now. However, we will be working on a translation to English as a separate booklet.

Flemming
.................................................
Fleming San,

Thanks ,,I figured it was in "nihon-go".. That wouldn't matter to me if the illustrations are clear.

I just checked with Sensei and he informed me that it was no longer 1965 and that I needed to move up to the real world of prices.. I agreed that I still live in the past and expect books to be about $20 tops..

Ren, informed me the other day that they are using video tapes for re-inforcement that they have for their students.. I guess I need to get a part time job to add to my full time one..

Thanks again

Gene Gabel

renfield_kuroda
29th July 2002, 02:09
I didn't realize there was a new Japanese book. I will ask Niina-gosoke about it this week!

And yes Gene, you need to come to grips with prices in Japan: a small can of coffee in a vending machine costs 140 yen, video games in an arcade are 100 yen a pop (often 200 yen).:eek:

BTW if you need any help translating into English let me know, I've started some with the suimokai (http://renfield.net/iai/) homepage.

regards,

renfield kuroda

renfield_kuroda
19th August 2002, 02:49
Originally posted by Seishin

BTW: Kai Sensei has just released his new book on Mugai Ryu Iai Heido. It is a 160 page book with great pictures of all the kata as well as the two sets of kumitachi. Also a lot of important historical and technical information is found in the book. So far, it will be for sale privately through Nippon Budoin Seibukan and its foreign branches.

I'd love to get a copy of this book, but I can't seem to find information on the website. Could you post ordering instructions and/or email me w/such information? As I'm in Japan I can easily bank-transfer the money.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

Seishin
21st August 2002, 08:11
Dear Renfield,

We have not yet put info about the book on the website. However, since you are in Japan, I would suggest that you write directly to Kai Sensei at Seibukan Dojo. I am sure that he would be happy to send one to you. His address is:

Kai Kuniyuki
c/o Seibukan Dojo
175-15 Honko-ji
Nobeoka-shi
Miyazaki-ken 882

Thanks very much for the offer to translate the book. That could be an interesting project we could work on together. Please contact me directly on: chefinstruktor@seishinkan.dk

Best regards,

Flemming Madsen

renfield_kuroda
22nd August 2002, 01:13
Thanks. I will either mail directly or go through Niina-gosoke.

Also I'll send you a mail about translating; Niina-gosoke has got me translating everything these days!

Regards,

renfield kuroda

renfield_kuroda
9th December 2002, 01:25
I showed the lineage page to Niina-gosoke this weekend and he remarked that the first lineage (from Bugei Ryuuha Dai Jiten) is incomplete, but that it was a simple printing error: by the time Gosoke had corrected the lineage, it was too late and the book was already printing.

FYI, not to say that it is THE correct Mugairyu lineage, but we recognize the the third one on the page, where Nakagawa-soke is 13th.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

Vile
9th December 2002, 13:57
Thank you for your comments Mr. Kuroda.

My point isn't -- naturally -- to push any "correct" lineage (not that I really believe there even is such absolutely.. the correct lineage is of course the one that your teacher gives you ;) ), but just collect different versions for a sort of academical intrest. I'm comparing different lineages to the one from BRDJ just because I needed to use something as a base and I think that BRDJ is quite well known and thus a good "starting point". I'm not implying at all that it is the "correct" one.

renfield_kuroda
10th December 2002, 01:22
Of course! I wasn't trying to imply anything of the sort, either. I just wanted to clear up, specifically about the first lineage taken from BRDJ, that it was an honest mistake, a printing error, and as it's such a well-known resource it should be qualified as such. I wonder if they'll reprint the book anytime?

Regards,
renfield kuroda

renfield_kuroda
24th December 2002, 01:53
I checked with Niina-gosoke and he gave me some updates, including slightly different kanji, readings for the names, and birth/death dates. Still trying to get some birthdays, but here's what I've got, from Niina-gosoke who, like Kai-sensei is under Shiokawaw-gosoke.

?‰‘ã ’ÒŒŽ’OŽ‘–Î 1. Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi (1648 ~ 1727.06.23)
“ñ‘ã ’Ò‰E•½‘¾ 2. Tsuji Uheita (? ~ 1742.10.16)
ŽO‘ã “sŽ¡‹L–€‘½Ž‘‰p 3. Tsuji Kimata Sukehide (? ~ 1761.01.28)
Žl‘ã “sŽ¡•¶?¶‰q–厑Œ« 4. Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukekata (? ~ 1787.07.15)
ŒÜ‘ã “sŽ¡‹L–€‘½Ž‘?K 5. Tsuji Kimata Sukeyuki (? ~ 1813.08.26)
˜Z‘ã “sŽ¡•¶?¶‰q–厑?M 6. Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukenobu (? ~ 1823.08.20)
Žµ‘ã “sŽ¡‹àŽs˜Y‰Ã?d 7. Tsuji Kinichirou Yoshishige (? ~ 1825.08.07)
”ª‘ã ?‚‹´”ª?•?[—º 8. Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke (1750.01.13 ~ 1810.09.04)
‹ã‘ã ?‚‹´’B‘ ?[Œº 9. Takahashi Tatsuzou Mitsuharu (1784.12.05 ~ 1835.01.04)
?\‘ã ?‚‹´”ª?•?¬?s 10. Takahashi Hachisuke Shigeyuki (1816.02.04 ~ 1880.02.13)
?\ˆê‘ã ?‚‹´“N•v•??¬ 11. Takahashi Tetsuo Takeshige (1830 ~ 1876.03.23)
?\“ñ‘ã ?‚‹´æà‘¾˜Y?‚˜@ 12. Takahashi Kyuutarou Koun (1859.07.02 ~ 1940.10.21)
?\ŽO‘ã ’†?ì“y—´?\ˆê 13. Nakagawa Shiryuu Shinichi (? ~ 1981.07.02)
?\Žl‘ã ?ΈäŒåŒŽ‘P‘ 14. Ishii Gogetsu Zenzou (? ~ 1970.04.11)
?\ŒÜ‘ã ‰–?ì›??Ë?Æ?¬ 15. Shiokawa Houshou Terushige (1925.12.10 ~ )
?\˜Z‘ä ?V–¼‹Ê?…–L–¾?i9’i”ÍŽm?j 16. Niina Gyokusui Toyoaki (9dan hanshi) (1948.10.02 ~ )

Regards,
renfield kuroda

Vile
2nd January 2003, 13:39
Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
I checked with Niina-gosoke and he gave me some updates, including slightly different kanji, readings for the names, and birth/death dates. Still trying to get some birthdays, but here's what I've got, from Niina-gosoke who, like Kai-sensei is under Shiokawaw-gosoke.


Thank you Mr. Kuroda,

The lineage you gave seems to be mostly identical to the one provided to me by Mr. Flemming Madsen (naturally, as Mr. Madsen's teacher and your teacher are from the same organization) in all other aspects than the reading of some of the names and three kanji, so I don't think there's need to write a completely new lineage, but instead I'll add the alternative readings and kanji to my page.
I've also added a quote from Mr. Madsen about the appointing of four successors to Shiokawa and link to Hougyoku-kai.

renfield_kuroda
6th January 2003, 01:45
Glad I could be helpful! Regarding the alternative kanji and readings, that's always a trick in Japanese, especially with older names. Also, Niina-gosoke is still trying to verify some of the missing birthdays, so if I get any more information I'll let you know.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

renfield_kuroda
20th January 2003, 01:34
Actually one more change; the founder's name is, contrary to what's usually written, "Tsuji Gettan Sukeshige" (not Sukemochi.)

Regards,
renfield kuroda

renfield_kuroda
28th January 2003, 03:32
Actuall scratch that -- Niina-gosoke checked Nakagawa-gosoke's book and it list "Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi"!

Regards,
renfield kuroda