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the Khazar Kid
13th July 2002, 18:19
I recently started learning this classic technique in my karate class (Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do). I am wondering if there is a Daito-ryu version of this technique, what the Daito-ryu version is, or if you have any pointers for how to improve it in practice? Thanks in advance for all martial wisdom!

Jesse Peters

Phil Farmer
19th July 2002, 14:14
I have a question, first. Why are you being taught Shiho nage? I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just am surprised that a karate class would be studying a rather complex aiki technique. Ueshiba Sensei believed that a thorough understanding of shiho nage was key to understanding aiki. Are you doing the technique from a grasp, punch or weapons attack? It can make a small difference. I will say that the key to the technique is kazushi (unbalancing the opponent). If you can say what the attack is it will be helpful in discussing the use of this very classic technique.

John Cole
20th July 2002, 15:02
Hakko-ryu Jujutsu contains the Shiho Nage principle as part of its curriculum.

However, from what I've seen of Aikido's Shiho Nage there is a significant difference in excution (and some of the details) between the two versions.

I suspect that both techniques/principles came from Daito-Ryu.

As Phil mentioned above, kazushi is a very important component of the principle in Hakko-ryu as well.

INFINOO
21st July 2002, 05:17
Jesse Peters: First of all, I find it perfectly reasonable that your studying Shio-Nage in Karate.
Phil Farmer: Are you claiming that Daito-Ryu invented Shiho-Nage? If so I find its interesting that every combative art I have ever studyed had a version of the four direction cut/throw/lock in one way or another. Why should Karate be any differnt? If you want I can give you specific examples or maby we can just start another thread on the origin of Shiho-Nage. That might be a cool thread.
Any way as far as tips or pointers for Jesse I hope I can add a few things that will prove to be usefull.
Im not trying to scare you "but" over the years I have seen more than a few injurys to the wrist/elbow shoulder from Shiho-Nage type throws and locks. Not to mention the odd head bouncing of the matt/ground. Depending how your doing Shiho-Nage there may or may not be, many points along the process where you can be hurt or hurt your partner. So use caution and remember my motto "first get good, than get fast". IMO the difference between shreading a arm like a 25 cent chicken wing, and having the tech fall apart with uke spinning out the bottom, can be only a few degree's. If "you" are being thrown from a standing postion with your hand outside of your shoulder, there are times when some spectacular ukemi is needed IMO, in order to protect your self from injury. As you may or may not know, some people fly, some dont. When training know if your partners has wings or not, and be aware of your own limitations. Consider your landing surface as well, it can make a difference in one's willingness to "go over the top". Again I not trying to scare you(just be prepared) and just know that a fast throw where your wrist ends up on the outside of your shoulder and nage drops the wrist "smartly" and your not ready to fly, or resist at the "critical moment" because you are scared to fly because you think you "may" land badly, well, damage can happen in a heartbeat. You might not realize how easy the joints like wrist/elbow shoulder "will" shread untill its to late. The Damage that Shiho-Nage can do to the joints/tendons/muscles/nerves are classified as perment damage in my book. Talk to a sport injury doctor for details, bring a barf bag.
Also, even if you/they do fly, and nage drops to one knee as you begin to go a** over tee kettle there may not be enough room to successfully spin mid air which can result with your or his/her head clipping the ground on the way around. Call it what you want but broken necks while "training" are "Very Un-Aiki" no matter what art you do, I would say:).
If when training and Im Uke, and my partner wants to do air throws , I have found that at the point where I sense its "coming" as a matter of survival I instintually fight to "get my body close to my hand"(very important). Keeping my head, shoulder and wrist in what I call a "close triangle". In the middle of this triangle is my rotation point. It sounds kind of funny as I look at my words on the screen, but when your upside down four feet above the ground approaching the ground rapidly it makes perfect sense:p. So just before Im put into orbit I like to keep everything up top as tight as possible. And for the lack of a better way of saying it as he sends me over the top I "jump over my own arm" as the throw is applied. Nage may feel/think Im throwing myself but so far it works good for me. See my arms still works:). Another point about the Ukemi of Shio-Nage is if you can, "before" your completly tied in a knot, keep some "spring" in the old legs before you go over the top. In the air "try your best" to keep your eyes open and sight in your landing. I like to touch the ground as gravity has its way with me with my free other hand to help me feel where the ground is. When you fall, try and not break you toes on the ground. I know some systems(I sure no one here) like to slap really hard with there free hand, to each his own, if you decide to try that, let me know how that works on hardwood:cry:.
If nage is returning your wrist to your shoulder or as we say "letting you down easy" remember to keep your head to your chest on the way down. Im not sure why, but the sound of a head bouncing off hardwood or matt, may put some people off;).
The Aiki version of Shio-Nage I understand is taught in the context of a four direction cut with staff/katana ect...OO. But I think I will save that for later, if this thread continues.
In the mean time here's a naked hand version for your reading pleasure..
When uke "thinks" about attacking. Hit em:cool: , then grab em by the wrist , start applying torque((twisting and stretching uke's arm) as you "wipe your forehead with the back of your own wrist"(*very important) and spin like a tornado with you on the inside, uke on the outside, keep applying torque, untill the wrist reaches the apex of the corner, and at this point, return the wrist with a twist of the hips(very important this happens in one motion) towards the elbow so that it(the back of his hand)ends up at his own shoulder. As Phil said no returning ukes balence ,please. Now you and uke are facing opposite directions. If all went well that is up to that point, uke "should" IMO be on his toes and you can with very little force move him in any direction. I have found that there must be a shoulder to shoulder connection combined with the wrist/elbow torque that keeps everything uke "nice and snug" and helps to keep Uke from "wiggling away" so to speak. If you get sloppy and leave room uke will make life interesting. So anyways, when/if you want to make uke fall down, simply point with your index finger to the ground with the hand that is holding uke's wrist and "cut down". Uke goes "thump":eek:, or swosh:D depending on his/hers ukemi skills, and how hard and fast you cut down.

Remember when have Uke in "total controll" after your tricky spin and return his wrist thing of a ma jiggy and the two of you are still standing. Be mindfull that Uke's "other" arm is "hidden and completly free. I have heard that "some people" like to carry wooden tanto's they can draw with there other hand and stab nage behind there back while training just to keep Nage honest. Not me mind you, just "some people".
Also, If you decide to stay physically connected with Uke to do a finishing move(knee on chest,smash between the eyes for instance) as he goes to the ground, be mind full of his/her feet as Uke(karate especially) might be able to kick you in the head:eek:. And we wouldnt want that, now would we. Hope this helps, this post took me hours and wrist are killing me.

Regards,

Gregroy Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

the Khazar Kid
17th August 2002, 05:36
Thanks! Great threads! The version I am trying to learn is done against a cross wrist grab, it isn't actually a "nage" since you preferably lock the opponent off-balanced standing, so you can finish them off with a stomping headbutt. So far I have heard from instructors and seniors in the dojang or kwan where I train that I should duck very low under the opponent's arm as I start to spin.

Jesse Peters

Brently Keen
20th August 2002, 20:42
I don't advocate ducking or stooping at all. Sorry if I sound a little blunt, but I'd wager if your instructors are advocating such, then they don't really understand how the technique works, much less sound basics.

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
21st August 2002, 00:33
Brently,

I think the ducking under the arm thing is in reference to, what we call at least, "shihonage kuzushi", and does not set up the same way the Shihonage jujutsu waza found in the Ikkajo section of the Hiden mainline does.

In Yoshinkan Aikido, as our Aiki-Buken, there are both versions.

Regards,

INFINOO
21st August 2002, 03:42
Brenlty Keen: Perhaps you can share some pointers for us on Shio-nage? Your "blunt" response sparked my interest. Keep in mind we dont know if Jesse is tall and the others he is working with are short.
I agree stooping or ducking may not be the ideal posture however, being tall myself, I know I often must go down on one knee to do waza with shorter partners.



Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada.

cguzik
21st August 2002, 14:58
I don't know what Jesse really meant when he said duck or stoop, but there is a difference between ducking and dropping your center. The former sacrifices your posture, the latter does not necessarily. It's a matter of choosing to bend the back (ouch!) or the knees.

Chris

Brently Keen
22nd August 2002, 01:11
It doesn't matter if you're tall or short. To be clear, I agree with Chris there's a huge difference between acceptably changing levels by lowering one's center and/or dropping to one or both knees, and ducking and stooping. However ducking and stooping both indicate compromising your posture (bending at the neck, back or waist). Many people teach shiho nage in various ways ducking their head and/or stooping over to get under the arm and that is incorrect (imo).

Without going into too much "virtual" detail here on the internet (be happy to do so in person) describing the number of ways that I would do shiho-nage, I will however gladly explain just a few reasons why I said what I did.

Regardless of the orgin of the technique, shiho-nage is a characteristic technique of Daito-ryu and it's derivitive arts, but it is also common to many other systems. In Daito-ryu as well as many other Japanese systems, shiho nage comes to us directly as an empty hand application of sword technique.

Reason # 1 for not ducking or stooping while doing shiho nage is it's not necessary (or advisable) while fighting with swords to make such movements. Variations today that include ducking and stooping may do so because there's no significant sword influence to inform and correct their interpretation of the technique. It's not enough to learn the equivalent sword technique (imo), you'd have to study and practice swordsmanship to fully appreciate the technique.

Two related things however are often said about Daito-ryu, one is that the tradition is a principle based art, and that's true whether we're talking about jujutsu, aikijujutsu or weapons. The other is that Daito-ryu, was based primarily on and admired for it's strategy. Indeed many of Sokaku's more prominent students were drawn to study it primarily for that reason.

So Reason # 2 has to do with basic principles. There are many types of principles, some are more fundamental, and others more peripheral or contextual. Some of the most basic principles in Daito-ryu, and arguably for all martial arts are kamae (or posture), maai (relative combat distance/interval), and zanshin (lingering/remaining awareness). These are extremely basic foundational principles - obviously without grasping these (and other important basics), everything else becomes untenable. The problem today is many people who are teaching martial arts don't know or understand these basic principles very well.

These three principles have to do with the constant relationship between oneself, and others, as well as the surrounding situation/environment. They do not only apply to the start and/or finish of an engagement. If you fail to maintain these (or any other) foundational principles throughout an engagement or application of a technique, then you are (practically) undermining your own efforts and chances for success.

For example, what good is it if you begin with a great kamae, but lose it as you duck or stoop under in the process of executing your shiho nage? What good is the entire concept of maai if you are unable to sustain a favorable position (combative distance/interval) in your relationship with your opponent once the distance is closed? And of what use is your zanshin if you've already lost your awareness and ability to respond in the process of applying your technique(s) because you've compromised one of these principles?

The principles are of no good use if you don't adhere to them. I would argue that ducking and stooping in order to get under the arm of a shorter person is compromising all three basic principles. Regardless if it's "worked for you" any success you may experience in doing so, is illusory and relative at best - if you're violating fundamental principles in the process. Training in martial arts is, in a practical sense, training to constantly and continuously move according to principle. Failure to adhere to principle is tantamount to self-defeat, because it presents the opponent with a weakness he can exploit. Whether or not your opponents or training partners have ever taken advantage of the weakness is irrelevant - the weakness is there waiting to be exploited.

Reason #3 has more to do with strategy. As I mentioned before, Daito-ryu is a school based in strategy. Sokaku Takeda came from a family/clan that had a long and respected history and tradition of strategists. Again without going into too much detail (because I'd also rather discuss the finer points of strategy offline, in person), from a strategical standpoint, I think it makes little sense to compromise your structural and positional integrity in order to "adjust to the relative size" of your opponent. Although granted this is an extremely popular tactic in most modern martial arts - the assumption is because I'm taller (or smaller) I need to somehow adjust my techniques and movements to accomodate or fit my partner - that's fine if you're practicing for recreation or physical fitness, but if you're training for real self-defense or combat, then it presents some real problems if you compromise your integrity in the process of accomodating. Strategically, what makes more sense? To make my opponent(s) adjust to me and my movements, or for me to adjust to them and theirs?

In the end it's all much easier said than done, but that's why receiving (and dispensing) proper instruction in kihon is so essential to effective martial arts training (imo). There are many methods for doing so, and I imagine some are better than others - but there's no substitute for lots of repetition and practice to inculcate those basics into everything we do. You have to stick with it for a while.

I think there's a danger inherent in much of today's MMA mentality, and that is too many people are grabbing techniques from all different sources without really learning the "basics" of those systems and how they work. And then they proceed to modify and adapt those techniques to suit their particular physique and style, making all sorts of adjustments in order to "make the techniques work for them", and they encourage everyone else to do the same, based upon their (limited) experience of what works for them, rather than upon sound principles. The result is a whole host of people all over the place doing (and teaching) techniques incorrectly.

Just my opinion of course,

Brently Keen

INFINOO
22nd August 2002, 08:48
Brenlty Keen: Thanks for expanding your thoughts on Shiho-nage. I would like to address some of your comments. Its late and Im beat so I'll try to keep it brief. Its interesting you brought up the "grabbing" of tech from other systems. I wonder who the Japenese "grabbed" Shio-nage from?. You think they discovered it on there own? Or do you think maby the chinese deleloped it first. Do you think maby India had some influence on the chinese? Or do you think they all came upon the 4 corner cut/throw on ther own? Perhaps thats why you will find a version of Shio-nage in one form or another in many places and time through out recorded history . I for one claim to have invented nothing, but I find value and worth in studing, learning and practicing combatives from a number of sources making them mine. Call mine a Hobo stew if you will. Or call it knock the other guys on his a**, no mattter. IF you think Aikijutsu has the dope on Shio-nage, then good for you, however its pretty arrogent to think you know what most martail artist do? Who are you God? Futhermore to think that most of what they teach is wrong. Whats up with that?
Maby Greg stupid, because my one and only principle is to "attack the other guys strategy"

"There is only one art no more no less, and that is the art of artlessness."



Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives Internatinal
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Cady Goldfield
22nd August 2002, 13:40
Looked to me that Brently was just giving his opinions (as he stated) based on his personal experiences with Daito-ryu. Nowhere did he state that Daito-ryu was superior, only that it has a cogent strategy and principles at its base, and those strategies and principles were proven effective time and again.

Is this not a forum where people can express their experience-based opinions? Why get bent out of shape because someone makes a cogent argument on a forum dedicated to civil argument, debate and discussion?

INFINOO
22nd August 2002, 18:12
Cady Goldfeild: Strategies and principles effective time and time against who?

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Cady Goldfield
22nd August 2002, 19:23
The human body. Any human body. Principles and methods that work in deconstructing human anatomy, mechanics and neuromuscular function. The human body and its mechanics have not changed over time, and Daito-ryu's methods are completely attuned to them in a pragmatic way. It's an enormously sophisticated system that exploits the simple mechanics of the human musculo-skeletal system as well as the its more sophisticated neurophysiology.

The system is so refined, that even an average sized female of no special gifts (me) can use its principles to completely subdue and control the bodies of attackers much larger and stronger than I, and with very little physical effort.

If you read Takeda's history (Stanley Pranin has an excellent account), you'll see that he was pretty much undefeated in his encounters with the best fighters in Japan in his time. Men many times Takeda's size and strength, attacking full force, no holds barred.

That aside, I'd hesitate to consider shihonage as a "street technique." More of a dojo exercize to learn, feel and apply certain principles of body mechanics.

I don't expect anyone to take anything at my - or anybody's - word. I just know what I have learned, observed and performed/applied myself. DR in its most traditional, classical form is not "out there" for the public to see, so of course it wouldn't be reasonable to expect anyone to buy it.

But, it's not a mystery. Anyone who makes a study of how to manipulate and control a jointed, rigid skeleton and a fallible, predictible electro-chemical and hydraulic neuromuscular and circulatory system, can duplicate the profess. It just takes time, and fortunately, Takeda Sokaku did all of the work and spared us the research time.

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2002, 19:41
[Post deleted by user]

Cady Goldfield
22nd August 2002, 20:51
Why duck your whole body when you need only make the guy's arm get from one side of your head to the other? Enquiring minds want to know. :)

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2002, 22:09
[Post deleted by user]

Neil Yamamoto
22nd August 2002, 22:31
Cady wrote: "Why duck your whole body when you need only make the guy's arm get from one side of your head to the other?"

Cady, most people have their head up their rear, hence the whole body has to duck lower to get the uke's arm over their head.

Brently Keen
22nd August 2002, 23:48
Gregory:

Sorry you were offended by my opinion, but you asked me to elaborate because you were interested. I think if you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I neither meant nor implied much of what seemed to ruffle your feathers - I'll be happy to discuss the matter further in Private Mail if you like.

Neil:

Your aiki timing rocks, you always make me chuckle at the most choice moments. LOL!!! Seriously though if your opponent has his head up his rear you don't need to accomodate to that either, just give 'em a good spanking (or boot in the @ss), and save the shiho nage for another day.

Nathan:

My primary point was all about compromising your posture by ducking or stooping under the arm - doing so is incorrect (imo). If you want to change your level, then by all means do so correctly, just bend your knees, or drop to one knee, but don't duck your head, or stoop over to do it.

I think most people will agree that compromising your balance in order to do shiho nage (or any other technique) is not a good idea. But then I also think that many of those same people (I'm generalizing here, so only if the shoe fits wear it) would then step right out onto the mat after agreeing with that, and proceed to compromise all sorts of basic principles, because they are not aware of the ways in which they might be breaking their balance/posture. And the reason is often because they're more concerned with accomodating to their opponent and/or making their techniques work "for them", than they are with adhering to basics, and moving according to principle.

My secondary point however follows right out of that, and wonders along with Cady why it's even necessary to duck/drop your whole body at all? I think the whole notion that you need to "get lower" because you're taller (or your opponent is smaller) is questionable, and the accomodating mindset behind that notion is wrong - it's better to make the opponent accomodate to you.

With Respect to all,

Brently Keen

INFINOO
23rd August 2002, 00:11
Nathon Scott. Makes sense to me.

Cady Goldfeild: You make a good point. I would go one step further. Why worry about putting the arm from one side to the other when you can grab the attackers wrist from a front punch or diagonal cut(no matter), with one or two hands twist as you pull uke's elbow over your own shoulder palm up and break the elbow. I think you would agree this version of Shio-nage would work on the street?
The "sticky part" of many Shio-nage's I have seen is at the moment Nage spiral's where he exposes his back to nage. In many cases, all Uke need to to beat the tech is to pull his elbow back and down towards there own body .At this point, nage is in front of uke with his/hert back exposed. Not the best situation on the street or Do-jo IMO. By the way, I learned this Shio-nage variation in a Tai-chi long form application. Hope you find it usefull.

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Cady Goldfield
23rd August 2002, 01:27
Greg,

I know what it feels like to be in that position -- arm palm up over shite's shoulder, knowing that the slightest diaphragmatic extension on shite's part will make my elbow snap like a KFC chicken wing.

There are many ways to do shihonage, certainly.

However, I've observed enough times that trying to capture a punch or extension is too exacting to risk shihonage in a street situation. Ditto for kotagaeshi. As you must well know, in an all-out confrontation (and I've been in some), gross motor movements and instantaneous connections from whatever vector avails itself, is the most likely tactic for success.

If the opportunity laid itself in my lap, perhaps. But most of the time there are far more efficacious and preemptive methods to stop and take apart an attacker.

As for turning one's back to an attacker... There's a difference between turning one's back, and using one's back within a process. Some kinds of shihonage just bring the attacker around your back on his way to your opposite side, but he is so stuck to you and locked up and unable to move anything, that it doesn't matter.

Neil,
Can I hire you to do standup at the company picnic? You da best.

Nathan Scott
23rd August 2002, 02:13
[Post deleted by user]

Cady Goldfield
23rd August 2002, 02:46
Nathan,

Yah, I understand your walk-through. There certainly are times shite would lower his center, I just haven't seen many applications of shionage where that was necessary. Also, I'm wondering why uke's punching arm would be bent, when it makes more sense (to me, at least) that getting it locked and rigid gives shite so much more control?

And, what are the odds of a yokomen punch, or a punch slow enough to make the sort of contact from the get-go that you're describing?

These are meant to be straight questions, Nathan. Just interested in your take on this. Shihonage lends itself academic discussion. ;)

INFINOO
23rd August 2002, 03:36
Brenly Keen: My feather's arnt ruffed:). Or as my cats say "I ment to do that". Actually, Im enjoying this discussion very much. Thank you "very" much for elaberating on the topic. Your right I did ask for it. Im still very much interested in discussing Shio-nage in this thread , besides no E-mail at the moment. Perhaps next week when I launch my web site.
I do agree to disagree about bending at the waist, as I think it is usefull at times. Beside it goes with my mind set of never being to proud to duck or jump back;). A good example off the top of my head, to keep from losing my head, is in a tech like Pasata Soto( Western Bowie meathods) where the waist is bent(knees too) so that the head is level with your rear end as the Bowie is thrusted into the mid level of attacker. The off hand reaches in opposite direction (palm up) of the thrust to help counter balence. It sounds awakward as hell but in practice, works great.
Another example in bending the waist is in Sutemi waza where you roll to gain an advantage. In a tech like shio-nage this can get down right nasty as there is no breakfall, at least none your walking away from on a hard surface. Just a thud crunch, snap :eek:. I learned the advantage of falling on the opponent(hip throws where my favorite back then) many years ago in wrestling, And the idea has always stuck with me. The fact Im 240 now might have somthing to do with it to:o. Lisening to all the air violently and rabidly expelling out of your oppenent after you fall on his bread basket tend to stick with you. They made a sound kind of like OOOOOFFF. After that no one had the air to even think about fighting. Iv had it done to me as well(how else do you learn?) and its scarry when you are unable to take in a breath. You swear your going to die or just want to. We used to practice these waza into gymnastic foam(still hurt) or if at the beach, off the deck into water, drownings fun to.
Anyways good discussion and no hard feelings here.

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

the Khazar Kid
23rd August 2002, 04:23
Wonderful replies everyone!!

I'm around 5' 8" and 130so lbs. 21 yrs old, blue eyes blond hair full beard...

I'm applying this against a grab, where the opponent is basically giving me an arm. Against strikes I would probably use strikes, because I am more or less a karateka with some boxing and kickboxing training!

What action would you suggest instead of ducking under the arm? Many people in the dojang have tried lifting the arm, but the other guy is always able to spin out when this happens, so this is recommended against. Is their another way of moving the arm that we haven't tried that prevents an enemy from escaping?

Someone suggested go down to the knees, if I do that how do I spin? I am having some trouble getting this technique down but would really like to learn it, for the principles behind as well as for the immediate application.


Jesse Peters

Walker
23rd August 2002, 06:46
Wow, so nice to see everyone and some discussion too. Plus Neil masking truth with twisted invective. Great.

I think Brently and Cady have a point that is often overlooked in aikido circles. It would be worth wile to do some experimenting on the mat with the concept. Make the other guy do all the work ;)

Too often Shiho Nage looks like reefing on a pump handle. Were is the finess?

Ron Tisdale
23rd August 2002, 15:16
A yoshinkan example of the technique Nathan describes from the shomenuchi attack...

http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/shihonage/default.htm

As for an idea of how to apply shihonage without ducking:

Yokomenuchi shihonage osae ichi (sidestrike, all-direction throw pin #1)

Aihamne stance,

Uke attacks yokomen,

shite pivots, blocks and strikes with atemi across uke's eyes,

(The hips, hands and knees move first with the pivot, the block is done in a cutting motion, connecting with uke's strike at the fore-arm then sliding down to the wrist. The block can be very effective for taking uke's ballance if the block is initiated with the palm turned to shite's right (or even facing shite) at first, and then is turned out to the left.)

at the end of the pivot, shite open-steps with the right foot, keeping uke's striking hand in their center with the left hand, thumb over the meat of uke's thumb, and grabbing with the right hand just above the left at uke's pulse. At the end of the open-step, shite's wrists should be crossed, with uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder and center locked and uke still off-ballance. There is also the posibility of applying a forth control on uke if this is done properly.

Shite now cross-steps into their hands so that their head is in the area where their wrists are crossed with uke's locked wrist. It is important that shite be in proper posture here and uke be off-balanced and locked, because you are about to turn.

Now shite does a body change, moving with the back knee first, in coordination with the hips. The back knee actually pulls the body to the new direction, while the front knee pushes. Shite should be stable, turning on the balls of the feet, but without lifting the heels off the mat. With your hands locked to your fore-head, you ***do not*** duck at all...your upper body maintains the same posture, while your legs and hips perform the turn. Uke's body is held relatively still during your movement in this body change.

As shite turns, cut with your hands to uke's shoulder. As you start the body change, your elbows are bent (allowing you to bring your head to your hands) and as you finish the body change, your arms are extended in the cut to uke's shoulder. Uke should now have their back bent, and be almost totaly dependant on shite for their ability to remain standing.

Shite now shuffles and cuts to their own foot to bring uke down and complete with a pin and atemi. For the pin, it is important that uke's hips are off the ground so that they cannot kick toward shite's head. To accomplish this, use a forth control preassure point on uke's wrist. Properly applied, uke's hips will lift off of the ground. Uke should be at almost a 90 degree angle to shite in the pinning position. Shite may also pin using the knee for additional control.

This method allows shite to remain balanced and stable, with good posture through-out the technique, giving uke little momentum for reversals (since after the open-step, they are locked into position, and shite does the movement). There is no ducking or bending at the waist involved.

Ron Tisdale

Ron Tisdale
23rd August 2002, 17:27
Hi Cady,

As to shihonage's practicality, Gozo Shioda found it to be quite practical, even against boxers (see the english translation of his autobiography for a reference). Not being of anywhere near his level of capability, I'm not sure of getting it against a good boxer, but it certainly works well enough against most people. I believe it was a favorite fighting technique of a lot of the old timers...

One of my teachers has a saying for randori...go for the back hand. If you realize that there are multiple strikes coming, evade the first strike (usually a jab) and trap and throw with the second (often a right cross). Generally works well.

Ron Tisdale

Arman
23rd August 2002, 18:38
Or just take a look at the shiho nage tachiai kata in the "Hiden Mokuroku - Ikkajo, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" book by Kondo Sensei. As Cady noted, the uke's arm is moved/controlled over the nage's head - the nage has no need to duck (in both omote and ura versions). If he is ducking, he is doing it wrong.

Not that there aren't other ways to do shiho nage, as Nathan pointed out.

Regards,
Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

Cady Goldfield
24th August 2002, 00:34
Nathan,

Thanks for trying so hard. :)
It's true that verbal descriptions just don't cut it. I and other people I know have "spelled out" things step by step, and still readers didn't get it. Just one of those things, I guess.

Looking forward to MPEGs and THE TRUTH at last.

Off Topic (and from another bulletin board, too): BTW, the green 'boo you're holding in the photo on your website sure looks like moso or another Phyllostachys species (which are native to China. Moso was first imported to Japan in the early 1700s and became deeply entrenched in Japanese culture and agriculture.) But you don't need to tell Obata san that his "Nihondake" is really Chinese dake. ;)

Brently Keen
24th August 2002, 04:57
Nathan,

I appreciate your explanations and I'm familiar with the basic Yoshinkan version as well as most of the others being discussed. The key as I think you're putting it is the set-up/kuzushi that is applied prior to pivoting and/or going under the arm (however people are doing it). Kuzushi is crucial for the success of nearly all aikido/judo/jujutsu/aikijujutsu techniques. It is, as you know another fundamental basic kihon with it's own set of governing principles.

While most styles include (or need) some kuzushi for their techniques to be effective what differentiates many styles and traditions is the huge variety of ways that kuzushi is accomplished. How you are getting and maintaining kuzushi throughout your techniques should be a crucial area of study and practice. Again, adhering to principle(s) is important.

IF you've adequately locked up and unbalanced your opponent you should be able to do shiho nage effectively, whether you drop down to one knee, or stay upright, because you've locked the guy all up and taken their root/balance away you have the position of advantage and freedom to do the technique. You may even be able to get away with ducking your head or stooping over, because you've set the technique up right. But I think that doing so abandons some of those basic principles (kamae, maai, zanshin) that I mentioned in a previous post, and creates an opening that can be exploited.

While videos and mpegs are clearer than words on a screen sometimes - there's often a lot of other things going on that also can't be seen and/or expanded on without being pointed out in person. Particularly with aikijujutsu. It's much better (imo) to have these sort of discussions with your instructor in (or after) class. That way they can impart to you the knowledge and expertise that they have of your system. Now that also underscores the need to seek out proper instruction from someone who really knows their basics inside and out - and is willing to pass on those principles and skills to their students.

Gregory,

All's well with me, I love to disagree with nice guys. Please call me Brently, I have a background in wrestling too (we should swap stories should we ever have the pleasure of meeting someday).

I'm not familiar with the pasata soto move or the Bowie method so I can't really comment on that. As a kid, Jim Bowie was one of my heroes though.

As for sutemi waza - You're right, I'll grant you that there may be some situations where you might want bend at the waist or otherwise compromise your posture intentionally (rei for another example) - but that's very different than compromising in order to accomodate to your opponent. The nature of sutemi waza is, as they're called, "sacrificial" - you're giving up something in hopes of gaining another thing. Because you're giving up/sacraficing your posture, their success really depends on their unexpected surprise, and your ability to lock-up and/or capitalize on your opponent's over-commitment or sure feeling that he's got you. Typically in judo/jujutsu these are last resort moves for when you can't stop your opponent from taking you down so you take him down with you - in hopes of turning the tables and improving your position in the process. Still there are principles that apply (in one of my previous posts I spoke of foundational AND other peripheral and/or contextual principles). At any rate, shiho nage isn't a sutemi waza, and I don't think it's necessary or advisable to compromise your posture (or any other basics) in the process of executing any variation of that particular throw.

As a side note, when aiki is added to the mix, sutemi waza take on a whole new dimension. As I'm sure Cady knows, Kiyama sensei (Kodokai), and some of his students really shine at these sort of moves.

Ron,

Boxers are fun to play with (until you get hit by one). I've had the pleasure of working with a several over the years. If I recall correctly, Kuriowa sensei (aikikai) has a background in boxing and gave a rather memorable demo against boxing and other more practical types of attacks in one of the earlier Aiki News tapes (Friendship Demo?). Personally I like to work off the jab, before the cross gets too close for comfort - but the typical shiho nage would not be my choice in that case. In any case, I think that Jesse was talking about shiho nage from a wrist grab.

Brently Keen

jzimba1
29th August 2002, 16:16
Heya Cady,


There's tons of value in figureing out things for yourself, and then testing your theories in practice to confirm them or not... in my case, usually not... *grin*

As Ilearn more about the nervous system and ways into manipulating it, I think I could come up with many ways to trigger ... parasympathetic dominance in more then the way we all first think of.

whether or not Takeda or anyone else has come up with all of these ideas is meaningless to me. Of course, I'll doubtless be shown some hugely cool concept one day by an experienced practicioner of any given deadly art which uses the concept I may come p with myself, or which perfects my clouded theories. This doesn't mean the homework is useless, hell I could discover the lightbulb along the way right?

Just simple ideas of low-level survival, like the stretch reflex in muscles can be exploited to make shihonage work differently entirely, is this useful in practice? maybe not, but it sure could be instructive on the workbench (in our case a padded workbench with sweat/spit and gatorade......

Just the other day I had a non-martialartist crumple me up by understanding the paths my joints really take as I breath and move. with some refining and some lessons about distancing, he'd be able to apply it as a devistating technique (which you've done to me) but in his case, it was an academic demonstration of how ribs and shoulders connect to the pelvis.... and the other way round, which makes me very curious about some things...

love,

Joel

Cady Goldfield
29th August 2002, 18:02
Yo, Zimba mon!

What can I say? I'm just inherently lazy. It took me 20 years to figure out some of the most ridiculously simple "basics" in one art. No way would I wanna go through that again.

Better to spend that time practicing and trying to get already proven principles, than waste it trying to reinvent the wheel. That's work enough for a lifetime.

Hey, when you coming up to train, Stinky Boy?

love,
Cady

Carina Reinhardt
7th March 2014, 17:36
In today's newsletter of Aikido Journal there was this interesting video of Katsuyuki Kondo Sensei, Menkyo Kaiden in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, demonstrating the artís shihonage technique both with and without the sword. Kondo Sensei gives some examples of the concept of ďAikiĒ in his demonstration.

http://store.aikidojournal.com/katsuyuki-kondo-daito-ryu-aikijujutsu-menkyo-kaiden-demonstrates-shihonage/

Nathan Scott
8th March 2014, 00:48
[Post deleted by user]

Carina Reinhardt
8th March 2014, 07:14
Oh, I just realized this post is actually in the AJJ forum. I forgot we had this forum!

Carina, I hope you don't mind, but I merged your post with an existing thread on the same subject here in hopes of improving search results and responses.

Also, I noticed that the clip that is on Aikido Journal is from a commercial DVD published by QUEST. I'm hoping the link from Aikido Journal, that links to the original youtube link, was uploaded with permission. The youtube clip indicates it was originally uploaded by "decepticon". Hopefully this is not a copyright violation (I'll remove the link if it is). That being said, I agree that it is an interesting clip, and I recommend the DVD.

Thank you Nathan!

Jose Garrido
29th March 2014, 13:34
Unfortunately someone has bootlegged the whole Daito-ryu DVD by Kondo sensei (Quest) onto youtube. It's under learning Aikido Step by Step.

Jose Garrido