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Larry Hairgrove
25th July 2002, 12:43
Where does Shotokan Karate come from?Can just anyone claim to teach such a thing?

MarkF
26th July 2002, 08:24
From what I know, Shotokan is like most of the original striking arts and comes from Okinawa, then from Japan to the West.

Can anyone just claim to know it and teach it? Yes. That is something you really need to find out (teacher's teachers, etc.) before you decide to study it or if you are planning on teaching it. Most who post on the Karate forum here, and on the Rukyuan forum can tell the real thing quite well, but not all who can do this post here.

BTW: I forgot to say orginally shotokan came from the Asian continent before it arrived on Okinawa but was not called that, of course.

I'm not a karateka, but even I could probably find most of the phonies. It is all in the attitude, or caveat emptor.

Why do you ask, if I may?


Mark

Larry Hairgrove
26th July 2002, 08:31
Thinks dude for the info.I remember some one saying that the dude who started the whole thing, and I have no clue when was laughed out of Japan.His school looked like nothing he started with when he was finished.Who started the school?Is Okanawa realy a part of Japan?

Larry Hairgrove
26th July 2002, 08:36
How many schools major are their of Karate.I know of a school that teaches Tae Kwon Doe they have a sign that reads Karate.What the heck.What is Karate??

26th July 2002, 09:05
Originally posted by MarkF
From what I know, Shotokan is like most of the original striking arts and comes from Okinawa, then from Japan to the West.

Yes and no.
It has many kata that go by the same name as the Okinawan versions but they were changed technically to some extant and in some cases the name was too while Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan, was in mainland Japan. So "basically" it is the same but has undergone "Japanification" over the years.


Originally posted by MarkF
Can anyone just claim to know it and teach it?

Apparently so.
Their are different groups claiming Shotokan as their core or base. Basically it seems that if your school teaches the Heian, Tekki, Basai, and Kanku kata you can claim it as a version of "Shotokan" . I have seen some pretty "flaky" groups claim they are Shotokan in the past.
They might have been but I think they were relying on "name value" more than anything else.



Originally posted by MarkF
BTW: I forgot to say orginally shotokan came from the Asian continent before it arrived on Okinawa but was not called that, of course.

Actually it was never a style on the Asian continent.
Shotokan was named after the founder, Funakoshi, who's pen name for writing calligraphy was Shoto. When his students rebuilt his dojo they named it Shotokan or House of Shoto out of respect for him.
The actually "style" is formed from a collection of karate kata that Funakoshi knew and taught. These were a collection of kata that he had learned on Okinawa as a young man. When he moved to Japan he changed the name of some of the kata as well as many of the movements. Sometimes to the displeasure of his seniors in Okinawa.
Some of Funakoshi's kata are "descendants" of kata from the Asian Continent but not all.
In fact most didn't even resemble their original even in Funakoshi's day.

tote
26th July 2002, 16:39
Shotokan was literally the name for the hall where Funakoshi set up his first dojo.

It later came to refer to the style of karate that Gichin Funakoshi taught there. Funakoshi didn't use the name, just referring to his art as "karate". It was actually an amalgam of the shuri-te and tomari-te he learnt in Okinawa, modified to suit the training needs and desires of the Japanese, eg Judo style dogi and obi.

For various reasons, too numerous to go into here, the karate Funakoshi taught underwent vast modification over the years to arrive at the "Shotokan" most of us are familiar with today.

As an example, Shotokan today is renowned for long, low stances. Yet early photos of the master himself training show that he's virtually upright by comparison...

JimmyCrow
26th July 2002, 17:24
Larry

If you are looking for a real Shotokan Dojo in Houston that is connected to the Japan Karate Association I can ask my Teacher and get back to you on that. Robert is right about so many people teaching Karate and calling it Shotokan. If you want what is considered real Shotokan you need to find a teacher who is connected to the JKA in Japan directly, or through one of their Japanese teachers here in the US.
If what you where after was just info about what Shotokan is then Robert has answered your question already. There really isn't much more I can say except that Shotokan is like a Military form of Karate. What I mean by that is, it's practice is very regimented, lots of drills, discipline & kata over and over and over again. I think this is what Robert meant when he said Shotokan is a "Japanification" of Karate.

[Please understand that I do not mean to imply that Shotokan is a battlefield art by using the word military. I only choose that word to describe how the art is practiced.]

As far as your question about “how many major schools of karate are there?” I can name a few like Gojo-ryu, Uechei-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Wado-Ryu, Shotokan etc. but you should check out some other resources like DRAGON TIMES (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/) for more information.

Hope this helps:smilejapa

26th July 2002, 22:38
Originally posted by JimmyCrow

If what you where after was just info about what Shotokan is then Robert has answered your question already. There really isn't much more I can say except that Shotokan is like a Military form of Karate. What I mean by that is, it's practice is very regimented, lots of drills, discipline & kata over and over and over again. I think this is what Robert meant when he said Shotokan is a "Japanification" of Karate.



Jimmy,
Thanks for mentioning the military style training, which is very Japanese. I had forgotten all about that aspect of it.

Actually by "Japanification" I meant the name changes of kata to more Japanese sounding names, addition of names for techniques (long story), and changing kata movements from that of the original Okinawan versions.



Example:

Pinan was changed to Heian, same kanji different pron.
Kusanku (Chinese man's name) was changed to Kanku (looking at the sky).

Many of these name changes were done because of the times, China and Japan were almost at war so having something that had Chinese roots was not well thought of.

This has been some what of a problem in Okinawa even to this day.
Many Okinawans try to "erase" their Okinawaness and assimilate into Japanese culture. Language is basically the first step to doing this. I have met many young Okinawans that can't speak Okinawan.

Larry Hairgrove
26th July 2002, 23:35
Wow I did not know that okanawan was a differant language,but I knew that they where not the same people.

27th July 2002, 01:39
There is mention of it by Hohan Soken in this post:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=12886

kenshorin
27th July 2002, 06:29
Originally posted by Larry Hairgrove
Wow I did not know that okanawan was a differant language,but I knew that they where not the same people.

Taken from http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa121598.htm

"Because of the mountainous landscape of Japan, many communities were previously unable to maintain contact with each other. As a result, regional dialects (hogen) were developed. An example of hogen can be found in the relationship between Spanish and French. Both are Latin based languages, and can therefore be considered a hogen of Latin. Many Japanese dialects share very many similar features. Due to different regions having difficulty communicating, a common language was developed. The basis of the common language was derived from the Kanto-ben (Tokyo's regional dialect). Recently, a movement has arisen to preserve local dialects as a distinct element of a region's culture.

The two largest dialects in Japan are Tokyo-ben, and Kansai-ben (which encompasses Japan's second largest city, Osaka). A sort of love hate relationship exists between the two dialects, and the two major cities, Osaka and Tokyo. Of course, which ever city one is from is considered the best.

To a foreigner the local hogen is not immediately noticeable. After a while in one place though, even a foreigner will start to pick up the local dialect, and even develop its particular accent. This would be similar to someone from Japan moving to Texas to learn English, and picking up that region's particular accent."

The differences between the Okinawan native language and mainland Japanese fit this explanation... due to Okinawa's isolation, while it shares a commonality with Japanese, it has some major differences.

27th July 2002, 06:59
Firstly let's get some facts in order.
The definition of Hogen is Ho= area and gen= language.
Some foreign martial arts authors have stated that the Okinawan language is called "hogen".
This is incorrect, it does not describe a single language (i.e.. the Okinawan language) but merely represents the local language of that particular area. Infact I have heard there are at least 3 "hogen", maybe more, in Okinawa. Different islands have different "hogen".

I have read articles by several Japanese linguist that state Okinawan is not connected to Japanese as much as it is connected to Chinese. This makes sense because of the extremely strong cultural ties with China rather than with Japan through out it's history.
Several Okinawans have even told me that they feel more comfortable with and closer to Chinese than Japanese as well.

MarkF
27th July 2002, 11:08
Hi, Robert,
Please, I was only attempting to answer a question. I know there was no style which came from Asia, only that striking arts do.

I also knew how Shotokan got its name, as an older building which housed the Kodokan, was given or sold to Funakoshi's group for very little, and is probably where it got its modern name.

I also meant that it did become "Japanized" by stating it first went through (or was filtered through) Japan before it got to the West. I should have stated more, but as the question seemed to ask for basic answers, I gave as basic as I could.

Anyway, thanks for updating me. Funny, but my only experience was as a young teenager and it was Shotokan and that was a few months only, mostly forgotten.


Mark

27th July 2002, 12:51
Wasn't trying to be "uppity" I just wanted to pass on as accurate as possible information.
While there is no doubt that many of the karate kata came from China I found it kind of odd that you said Shotokan came from China in your original post, which I see it has been changed from China to Okinawa in your post as well as mine.

hector gomez
27th July 2002, 15:03
Mark F.,I understood completely what you were trying to imply,just because shotokan went thru some changes before and after arriving in japan especially in kata ,training,techniques,etc,there is no denying the lineage to the asian country.

Master T.okano head of the kenkojuko shotokan organization once drew a beautiful picture of bodiharma(daruma) on the back of a high ranking students gi as a gift ,the asian connection has always been there,somehow I ended up with that gi years later.

One of the things I don't understand, everytime I see one of these shotokan threads is how everyone seems to elaborate on how shotokan
does not emphasize true bunkai training and understanding in the true secrets of kata.

Did it ever occur to anyone that the emphasis in shotokan was done that way for a reason,not because they were not shown the devastating deadly techniques of the okinawan systems.

The emphasis is on "BASICS" the core of this particular art,the shotokan system placed so much energy on drills and repititions that when it came down to executing a proper punch or kick it could be delivered with some kind of authority,many times I see practicinors from other styles or ryu downplay shotokan emphasis because the lack of understanding of the secret hidden bunkai passages,but then they turn around and perform a basic kick or punch and it is evident they don't understand the secret passages of "BASICS"101.


Can real "excellent basics" overcome "standard basics",even thou "standard basics" knows some hidden secrets?

We don't have to go on an insult one another on this thread as it
always turns out that way,I am not even defending shotokan as I don't
really even train in that style anymore,everything changes and evolves
I just really believe that shotokan had a different emphasis on strategy,not so much that they weren't taught the proper way.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
27th July 2002, 15:27
You know Hector, I really didn't get involved with Bunkai for many years of training basics. Even though the Goju system instructors are now so bunkai oriented where everyone tries to out do everyone else, it was the basics that made our fighters good. I won my share of tournaments and could fight with anyone, yet my eyes weren't "open" to these secret deadly "hidden" techniques. Many of the top fighters didn't even know bunkai. (some still don't) It is the constant drilling in "basics", imo that makes the difference.
By the way, don't I know the owner of that GI?;)

Rob Alvelais
27th July 2002, 16:26
Hi Hector,

Basics, basics and more basics are fine and a legitimate way in which to practice. Clearly, shotokan of all its various stripes has produced oodles of talented practitioners who could land a mean punch, whenever they wanted.

I think there are a couple of questions at play here though, and might just become increasingly important to the long term practitioner who measures his time in decades and not years. YMMV

Ignoring bunkai to your kata, then why practice the kata? If you have no applications to your kata, what are you doing? Practicing balance, coordination, breathing, etc? Aren't there drills that you can create that might more effectively and efficiently train these elements? (Especially, when the time one has to train with life's hectic pace is so precious.) Why not do those instead? While I could be mistaken, I recall that in another thread, you weren't a big proponent of the notion of extracting self-defense ideas from the patterns and sequences of kata. So, if one isn't going to do that, why practice the kata at all? Seems that one's just dancing then. For me, if I'm going to dance, I want to be holding onto a woman, but maybe that's just me. ;-)

Regarding your excellent question, "Can real "excellent basics" overcome "standard basics",even though "standard basics" knows some hidden secrets?"

It's my understanding, coming from a style that practices kata analysis and application, that you're setting up a false dichotomy in your question. It's simply not a question of "either/or". Solid basics are understood as a prerequisite for the study and application of the ideas contained within and extracted from the kata. The "weapons platform", if you will, must be finely tuned and in good order to be applied successfully. As you, and all of us old timers know, there are no magic bullets or secret techniques that can do away with the gallons of blood sweat and tears required in karate training and that will magically turn people into killing machines. But, after say 10, 20, 30 years of training, shouldn't your basics be pretty well tuned? Shouldn't the tweaking required for your technique at that point be minor? So, what about a study of applications from kata then?

Also, for kata to have value and time allocated to its practice from the precious training hour, it seems that it should be training something more than balance, coordination, breathing, etc. Furthermore, it should be more than just performance art to maintain the interest of us old codgers. Perhaps that's where those (excluding the fad of the day bunch) are coming from when they talk about the lack of bunkai in shotokan kata. But, that's just IMO.

cordially,

Rob

hector gomez
27th July 2002, 19:44
Rob,

That was an excellent post,I hope more people would come on hear and express themselves that way,Maybe in the future we can somehow get beyond the same old "MY STYLE IS BETTER THAN YOURS ROUTINE"Anyway the
only reason I responded to some of the former remarks made on this thread is because it is obvious,that people confuse"REAL COMBAT KNOWLEDGE"with simply being closer to the source of lineage in the art.

If this was the case,we should all try to uncover the exact meaning handed down from the shaolin monasteries and try to follow them exactly and not deviate one bit from the original interpretation.

I wonder what the chineese thought of the okinawans when they interpreted their art in their own way to accomodate their culture and changed it,along with improvising it to make it better?

Is this not the same thing the japaneese people did with okinawa te?
And if you want to take it a step further, is it not the same as what other people have done once they learned the japaneese art, they change it for better or for worse but in order to fit their culture and make it work for their benifits.

My point was simply this,to much importance is somtimes given in knowing secrets,when in reality there are no secrets and most good secrets believe it or not are found thru hard training.

This is a very touchy subject because it deals with people emotions
and beliefs somewhat like religion,If I were to tell you that I don't practice kata anymore or have not in many years,would you think?
A I was probably never taught correctly?
b)I never had the patience to learn the small subtle details?
c)I was never taught the true bunkai meaning in the forms?
D)none of the above

The answer for me personally was D

Hector Gomez

27th July 2002, 22:51
Originally posted by hector gomez
Mark F.,I understood completely what you were trying to imply,just because shotokan went thru some changes before and after arriving in japan especially in kata ,training,techniques,etc,there is no denying the lineage to the asian country.

Master T.okano head of the kenkojuko shotokan organization once drew a beautiful picture of bodiharma(daruma) on the back of a high ranking students gi as a gift ,the asian connection has always been there,somehow I ended up with that gi years later.



Hector I am just wondering how much of that post you really understood since it originally said "Asian Continent" mean in China and not "country" or "connection" before Mark F changed it.
My post was based on his saying Shotokan came from China.




Originally posted by hector gomez
One of the things I don't understand, everytime I see one of these shotokan threads is how everyone seems to elaborate on how shotokan
does not emphasize true bunkai training and understanding in the true secrets of kata.

Having had students from both Shotokan and Shotokai, as well as friends that still practice both versions I have yet to hear of either organization emphasizing anything but point competition sparring and kata (for looks).
In fact it is only from western based Shotokan/kai groups that I have ever seen bunkai even mentioned.

kusanku
28th July 2002, 00:57
It's true that the American, Russian, European and Australian Shotokan groups now emphasizing bunkai and kobudo, are among the only one so doing.Though soime Japanese groups such as Shotokai and Chidokan do use some bunkai particularly throwing waza.

The emphasis certainly did not come from Japan.It started in America, and it started after Dillman went public with what he had learned from Taika Oyata, which may not hase been a great deal, and which has caused a strange bandwagon jumping phenomenon enabling those who practice ant type bunkai in their systems, be they Shito Ryu, which has always done so, or Ryukyu Kempo/Okinawan Kenpo derived groups,or Chinese arts,to immediately distinguish between true and false.

It is quite true too, that basics and skill in basics, are what is needed, and this is not a dichiotomy on the true arts.Everyone knows that any technique will work as good, and no better, than your basics.

But having, as also was said, learned basics to the extent possible, one can then put in the henka, the tweaking, the variants, that can alter those basics and combinations into a more sophisticated level of technique. Not magic, mind you, but more like, a more precise usage of basics to effect a maximal or optimal resiult with less effort, something older people or smaller and weaker people, midgt need as they grow old and feeble.

Its often overlooked that Taika Oyata for instance, was armor sparring champion of Okinawa for a time.Got to hit pretty hard to knock out or down an opponent in bogu.

Now, Shotokan guys becoming interested in this type thing, is because it was pointed out to them, that Funakoshi did and knew these things, which is proven by photos of him and by passages he wrote in Kyohan and other of his works, earlier and later.

So, it is obvious that this knowledge, in some degree anyway, was taught in Okinawan styles of karate.Thus, in Shotokan, it was also taught, at first, but I believe as the college clubs took over karate and made it more and more a sport, which Funakoshi did not believe in, saying karate was a martial art,the other aspects were gradually ignored and then forgotten.

Shotokan is a fine athletic karate style and it has power like you would not believe.Speed too, but its really known for its power, dynamics and delivery.Great respect is due it for this.

But its kata, while altered, still can have the applications for self defense in many cases, and these can be studied if anyone wishes, using principles derived from other styles and arts, and clues furnished by Fuinakoshi himself.By the way, I have seen those photos of Funakoshi demo'ing self defense;he isn't doing Shotokan at all, he's doing standard Shorin Ryu, the style he learned on Okinawa.

Let me expound a moment on Shorin Ryu;its applications are there, but the real functions of Shorin Ryu basics and kata movements, are found in the power delivery system of that style, which is precise, refined, faster than Shorokan, and very nasty in its effects.So in mastering that style, the kihon are done as elements of kata, kata is the center, and bunkai is done to give some idea of how to apply the kata, but the real power of the art is in the feel of the movement itself.Especially the way the opponent feels it.:D

So, in short, the way that the movement is done, is the source of a system's power, and effectiveness, then the applications or the outward techniques, which start at basic kick and punch and strike level, and move on to other levels, when the first is mastered.These other levels enable a karateka to stay effective with self defense after their power has begun to fade,as they enable better usage of gravity, momentum and other physical forces than otherwise would be the case.

But it all comes from basics, and applications come from kata, and as someone said,Rob I believe, if you don't do kata for applications, why do kata at all?

Note here, that the core techniques of both Shotokan and Shorin Ryu are the front punch and the front kick, and if you don't master these two, the rest won't help you much.

Okinawan Kenpo styles are derived mainly from Shorin ryu, with some admixture of Goju and Tomari te as well.

WQhat it boils down to is this: If you study a kata centered style, might as well learn to use what is in them.If not, do kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo or other stuff, and have fun. Wind up doing same stuff anyway, more or less, if you follow either path conscientiously.

Insults? We don't need no stinking insults.:D

Goju Man
28th July 2002, 01:42
Bunkai training is very interesting to me personaly, however, is it really needed? Many fighting systems don't train bunkai, or even kata for that matter. Yet they can sure fight. I would probably put my money on some of those guys than many bunkai afficionados. Is it cool, yes. Necessity? I think not.

28th July 2002, 11:30
Originally posted by kusanku


Its often overlooked that Taika Oyata for instance, was armor sparring champion of Okinawa for a time.Got to hit pretty hard to knock out or down an opponent in bogu.

Actually he was both full contact empty hand kumite as well as full contact weapons kumite champion.....in 1968 I think.



Originally posted by kusanku
Now, Shotokan guys becoming interested in this type thing, is because it was pointed out to them, that Funakoshi did and knew these things, which is proven by photos of him and by passages he wrote in Kyohan and other of his works, earlier and later.

So, it is obvious that this knowledge, in some degree anyway, was taught in Okinawan styles of karate.Thus, in Shotokan, it was also taught, at first, but I believe as the college clubs took over karate and made it more and more a sport, which Funakoshi did not believe in, saying karate was a martial art,the other aspects were gradually ignored and then forgotten.

I think you are right.
Funakoshi most likely knew something, to what extent I can't say. However, what he did know was either not taught or not remembered by following generations and is to no degree emphasized in Japan. This could be mainly due to the University clubs which are by far the most active and largest karate groups only concentrating on sport no contact tournaments.



Originally posted by kusanku
But it all comes from basics, and applications come from kata, and as someone said,Rob I believe, if you don't do kata for applications, why do kata at all?

Don't all kata contain the basics?

28th July 2002, 12:02
Some people have mentioned the importance of basics on this thread.

I have to agree that they are more important than knowing "boatloads of bunkai."
If you look around on the Internet you can see many home videos of MA folks doing "touch KO's" and now I think we are even doing "no touch KO's" :rolleyes:
When I look at 99.99% of the videos I can see that they didn't spend very much or not enough time doing "basics" because more often than not their technique looks sloppy. I say sloppy because I am not allowed to @#$%$#@ on this forum. Also most of the people are not knocked out too.
If your foundations in basics are not good then none of the rest of the stuff you learn afterwards (more advanced techniques, bunkai etc.) will not be that good either. Basically stacking crap on top of crap.................will leave you with nothing but a big pile of crap.

hector gomez
28th July 2002, 14:19
WE AGREE:toast:I KNEW WE COULD DO IT.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
28th July 2002, 15:40
I have to agree that they are more important than knowing "boatloads of bunkai."

Now I'm really getting worried. First John and now Robert? What's this forum coming to? The sky is falling!:D

I have to agree on both parts. No one wants to put in the time to train and sweat anymore. The real "hidden" secret is you gotta train and train hard.

Also most of the people are not knocked out too.

Actually, I've seen that on Dillman's videos.:laugh:

kusanku
28th July 2002, 19:12
Originally posted by Goju Man
Bunkai training is very interesting to me personaly, however, is it really needed? Many fighting systems don't train bunkai, or even kata for that matter. Yet they can sure fight. I would probably put my money on some of those guys than many bunkai afficionados. Is it cool, yes. Necessity? I think not.

Oh, I agree. If you do a system with kata however, may as well learn how to use 'em.You know, Kenny Roger's Ryu:Know when to hold 'em, know how to fold 'em, know when to run away and , know how to strike- you never count your bunkai till the fight, it is over, and you never ever show 'em what your gonna do before.:D

regards

kusanku
28th July 2002, 19:19
But again and in agrerement with all here, you gotta have good basics and condition, if your basics are lousy, your kata is lousy, and your bunkai is bunk.:D

I have seen those no touch dealies on the net, wheeee, loook into my eyes, you are getting sleepy, at least you are getting dizzy, fal down dang it, okay, at least wobble a bit , willya, yer making us all look bad.

What the heck is that stuff supposed to be anyway?Punch the air long enough you think you can ko someone with an air punch?

If you never hit solid objects, how will you know what you can or not, do?

You need to train, and yes, all kata do contain basics, and anyone thinkingn there's magic out there, listen, I got a bridge, its in Brooklyn, I can give it to ya really cheap.:D

Goju Man
28th July 2002, 22:16
You need to train, and yes, all kata do contain basics, and anyone thinkingn there's magic out there, listen, I got a bridge, its in Brooklyn, I can give it to ya really cheap.

What rate can you give me???:D

kusanku
30th July 2002, 01:05
Ahh, Yas, a Kustomer, well, y'see, you send me the Money, first, then I send the deed to the Bridge and City of Brooklyn to you, soon as the Jet lands me in Switzerland. Sound like a good deal to you?

We'll talk price later.:D

By the way, did I ever tell you I am the sole Heir to the arcane and ancient martial arts system of Minoan Mayhem, otherwise known as Catching the Bull?Teach ya cheap.

Though there is this guy on another thread here, who seems to be better at Throwing it than anyone I ever saw, he can enable you to master all, not one but all, martial arts, in one or two moves, no years of training required.Wonder why I don't believe that?training, training, training, basics, basics basics-is why.

Know what? I'd go for the Bridge deal, first.And , cause you're a good guyy, Manny, I tell ya, don't go for that one, either.The Bridge has rust on it, it ain't a good investment.

Take Care and regards,

kusanku
30th July 2002, 04:02
By the way, my comments on Bruce Lee on the other thread,were in response to the guy says he can teach all techniques from all arts, with two moves, right from the start, and new students can whip anyone, simply by learning these here advanced concepts.

Never in my wildenst dreams, Manny, would I ever make such claims as that. My point was, Bruce is telling everyone about water, meanwhile, training hours every day,weights, calisthenics, running, bags, pads, basic basics basics, sparring, etc.etc.etc.

It takes more than a simple concept, or philosophy, to kick some.

As for Bruces battle with the challenger Wong Chia Man, who is still alive and well and teaching in San Francisco,Wong has a different version of what happend there, supported by several witnesses.I wasn't there and don't know what happened.

Now, finally, as far as people being able to fight really well without bunkai or even kata, let me take it one step farther, and state here and now, there are some people who can fight really well, who don't even know any martial art or sport, who never trained a day in their lives for fighting, but who can whip almost anyone on the planet, either from genetics, a talent, or the fact that they are bigger, stronger, faster or sneakier than most other people alive.

The entire point of kata, is to enable people to learn and practice techniques, series of movements, and principles, who do not have natural talent, so they could learn to defend themselves, and with other training and exercises, develop into competent martial artists and even sometimes, skilled fighters.

But there are other ways to get this, and as I said many, many times, kata without basics is empty, and without good basics, bunkai is bunk.After all, I are an old judoka, and I learned everything i ever really needed to know about self defense from basic Judo, not, I hasten to add,only sport judo but self defense judo as well.Karate came later, for fun, and I did not believe for twenty years, that advanced bunkai would be any big deal.

But, if you master your basics for twenty years or so, it can be pretty cool stuff.But its not everything, just part of the picture.

But as someone who was not a natural, I can appreciate the value of kata.Course, before I studied any martial arts, I got beat up a couple thousand times, by my count, so I already had plenty fighting experience, as a kid anyway. having established the ability to lose, easily and quickly, I went on to learn how not to.Mostly it came down to timing, ie, you do yours before he does his, and you win.

Kata? We don't need no stinkin' Kata.Good right hand and a knee to the groin, hey, bud, yer shoe's untied, Wham!'At does it, where's the Yoo Hoo?:D This fightin' stuff makes me tired!Judo? we don't need no....'

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 04:02
YOU LIKE TAKING CHEAP SHOTS HUH?


THANKS.

YOU INSPIRE ME. INSTEAD OF HOLDING INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION, THIS IS YOUR FORTE.


ARIGATO!!!!!

Genkidokan
1st August 2002, 04:17
OSU!

MarkF
1st August 2002, 10:39
Genkidokan,
You have posted 22 times and probably have lurked much more than that. Didn't you get the hint to sign your full, true name?

No? Well, that rule is on nearly every page of E-budo.

Please do so. You may want to reconsider using caps. Most don't tolerate "shouting" for very long.

Thanks for listening.


Mark

Goju Man
2nd August 2002, 23:40
As for Bruces battle with the challenger Wong Chia Man, who is still alive and well and teaching in San Francisco,Wong has a different version of what happend there, supported by several witnesses.I wasn't there and don't know what happened.

Hey John, it took a while for me to find this. I mean with the battle you've got going elsewhere, but I'm sure he has a different spin on it. But no matter what spin is put on it, Lee was victorious. Wether it was by submission, knockout or whatever. I've never heard it disputed. After all, wouldn't Lee have stopped teaching? It's not like there were any judges there that gave Lee a decision or anything.

Rob Alvelais
3rd August 2002, 00:04
Ok I dispute it!

I do so based upon conversations that I've had with low profile witnesses and friends of both of the principles. (That and $1.50, will buy you a cup of coffe) Furthermore, the fight was never about teaching/not teaching the round eye. So, why would he stop teaching? Wong Jack Man, then and now teaches people of all races and creeds. Wong is a very nice, shy, warm and good man.

Rob



Originally posted by Goju Man


Hey John, it took a while for me to find this. I mean with the battle you've got going elsewhere, but I'm sure he has a different spin on it. But no matter what spin is put on it, Lee was victorious. Wether it was by submission, knockout or whatever. I've never heard it disputed. After all, wouldn't Lee have stopped teaching? It's not like there were any judges there that gave Lee a decision or anything.

Goju Man
3rd August 2002, 01:20
I do so based upon conversations that I've had with low profile witnesses and friends of both of the principles. (That and $1.50, will buy you a cup of coffe)

That's an expensive coffee. I'm not privy to those you know but I've never heard that. Then what was it all about? Are you saying he didn't lose?

Rob Alvelais
3rd August 2002, 07:35
Originally posted by Goju Man


That's an expensive coffee. I'm not privy to those you know but I've never heard that. Then what was it all about? Are you saying he didn't lose?

Everything is more expensive out here! :(


From what I can gather, I don't think there was a clear winner/loser. I surmise that neither fellow fought up to their potential, shall we say. Rahter I surmise that they didn't handle themselves well at all. Everybody says that the whole "begging for mercy" thing was preposterous, and having gotten to know Wong Jack Man, I'd have to agree. I just can't picture the man doing that.

Also, from what I've heard (even from some of Bruce's former students) is that Bruce was a mouthy, cocky sob. That's what the fight was about. Clearly, it had *nothing* to do with teaching the Round eye.

Rob

Goju Man
3rd August 2002, 16:53
That's certainly interesting info. Rob. If I'm ever out that way, I'll buy you half a cup of coffee.:D

3rd August 2002, 23:03
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais


Everything is more expensive out here! :(




$1.50 for coffee...expensive....Paleeeze.

Until Starbucks came to Japan and blew away most of the price gouging competition we were paying $5 to $10 bucks for coffee and it still isn't down to a $1.50.

Rob Alvelais
4th August 2002, 04:45
Originally posted by Goju Man
That's certainly interesting info. Rob. If I'm ever out that way, I'll buy you half a cup of coffee.:D

Hey Manny,
Love to take you up on that! :D

Rob

Rob Alvelais
4th August 2002, 04:50
OK Robert,

I'll stop whining now.
(Well, at least while you're around!) :smilejapa



Originally posted by Robert Rousselot




$1.50 for coffee...expensive....Paleeeze.

Until Starbucks came to Japan and blew away most of the price gouging competition we were paying $5 to $10 bucks for coffee and it still isn't down to a $1.50.

4th August 2002, 12:48
I tell ya what.........you guys can buy the coffee and I'll but the beers. How does that sound???

Goju Man
4th August 2002, 18:27
Let's forget the coffee altogether and just go for the beers.:beer: