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johan_frendin
25th July 2002, 14:50
Hello everybody!

Shorinji Kempo is a Japanese martial art and naturally associated with Japanese culture.

There is gassho rei entering dojo, gassho rei towards shomen, gassho rei towards sensei and senpai, clear hierarchy with titles, belts and badges and many more things that not are common in for example Sweden.
In Sweden there is very little hierarchy in the society in general and you very seldom call people in society by there titles, professions in Sweden nowadays, but maybe 50 years ago.
This collision of cultures often confuses the Swedish kenshis.

My question is, how much can we change the Shorinji Kempo (Japanese) culture and still call it Shorinji Kempo?

Is it possible to cut away the role of sensei and student and just say the name of the instructor (as we usually do in Sweden) and still call it Shorinji Kempo?
Is it possible to openly criticise teachers(senseis) about their teachings (as we usually do in Swedish society) and still call it Shorinji Kempo?
Is it possible to cut the Japanese hierarchy to the Swedish level and it still be Shorinji Kempo?
Is wise for us western people to try to apply Shorinji Kempo(Japanese)culture to western or swedish people without some change?


Johan Frendin
Visby Sweden

Kimpatsu
25th July 2002, 16:06
Originally posted by johan_frendin
My question is, how much can we change the Shorinji Kempo (Japanese) culture and still call it Shorinji Kempo?
Not at all. Any change, and it's no longer Shorinji Kempo. Mizuno Sensei once described it brilliantly when he said that Shorinji Kempo is a boat sailing to a destination. If you don't want to go to that destination, don't get on the boat. But never try to hijack the boat midstream. Boarding the boat means that you subscribe to the ideals (the destination), and will obey the captain. Anything else, and you're a hijacker and terrorist.
This takes me into another area I have often pondered late into the night. I remain convinced that Shorinji Kempo is quintessentially more difficult for a Westerner to learn than a Japanese, because of the cultural barrier. Because of its unfamiliarity, the westerner is always playing catchup ball. Never was this more apparent than in May 1992, when Mizuno Sensei dealt with a dojo breaker in summary (and typical Japanese) fashion; for months afterwards, voices were raised querying Mizuno Sensei's actions. It is up to us to learn more about the Shorinji Kempo way. (I draw a distinction between Shorinji Kempo and anything else, because in many ways Shorinji Kempo is unique, and does not reflect wider Japanese society.) Thus, we have two tasks: We must learn both the art, and the background culture that acts as its impetus. HTH.
Kesshu.

Martin Allerby
25th July 2002, 17:45
Not at all?

I’m a bit surprised over this remark…

I’ve heard a quite opposite story... I’ve heard high ranked people say that it is vital that we (people from western countries) tries to adopt and make SK fit our daily situation and I must agree. I think that everyone practicing/teaching SK must ask them selves way they are training SK. What are the basics of SK? From my point of view SK was founded in order to create a better world, partly for ourselves and partly for the sake of others. The ONLY way to improve can not be to become more Japanese…

I’m not saying that we should give up all Japanese customs and put in our own. I’m not saying that we should give all techniques country specific names. Etc. We should not! However I however think that we should teach “Gakka” from our own experiences and from our own culture. The important thing must be to keep the great foundation and the basic idea that SK is based on. I think for instance it would be wrong to demand all student to become Buddhists. I think that it is great that Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc can meet, practice together and have fun. We don’t want to take away that do we?

I agree with you Tony that everybody practising SK should learn both the art, and the background culture. However I think it would be wrong if we demand that everybody should live his or her lives in a Japanese style. You should enter the art with an open mind, but you must be allowed to question it.



Best regards,


Martin Allerby, Shorinji Kempo Goteborg Sweden
www.shorinji-kempo.nu

shugyosha
25th July 2002, 19:22
as i understand it,
so doshin created shorinji kenpo to spread a philosophy rather than a set of custom, pattern or traditions.
this is kongo zen,
as kongo mean adamantium the marterial of indestructible truth, this would be like a sharp sword all pervading, erasing all our selfishness and falsehood and malisiousness.
i think this is very important that a kenshi work on building a kongo mind, therefore removing all useless and ego based though.
without that shorinji kenpo would just be another label.
so are the japanese customs necessary to reach emptiness of mind?
i dont think so.
if we keep strugling on the appearance, we miss the essence i think.

hmmmm ok im not shorinji kenshi, but thats my opinion anyway ;)

Kimpatsu
25th July 2002, 23:51
OK, try this: About 12 years ago, it became quite fashionable in the BSKF to call sensei by their names, and drop the honorific. Mizuno Sensei said that if he caught anyone dropping the title "Sensei" he would kick them... but first he would kick whoever had said it was OK to drop the title.
Martin: Making Shorinji Kempo fit your daily schedule implies that the art needs to change to suit you, the very antithesis of changing (i.e., improving) yourself through training. When leading howa, you can of course relate the subject for the day to your own personal experiences, but the art itself remains steadfastly Japanese. How far must you change it before it is no longer Shorinji Kempo? (I know, I know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?) So, let's be more specific: Given free rain, how would you change it? Give reasons for your answer.
Kesshu.

johan_frendin
26th July 2002, 06:15
Hello Tony !

In Indonesia there you cannot teach the religious part of kongo zen but anyway Kaiso aloud Shorinji Kempo to be spread there? That is, in my opinion, a clear adaption to another culture tradition.

Johan Frendin

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 06:51
Johan,
Kongo Zen is not a religion because it has no articles of faith, so the comparison is somewhat misleading. Shorinji Kempo is an ethical philosophy, not deism.
Kessu.

Magnus Andersson
26th July 2002, 07:21
Hello Mr Kehoe,

I am just confused here. Isn't Kongo Zen a part of Buddhism, which is a religion? And isn't it possible for the practitioners of Shorinji Kenpo to become monks at some levels? I am not part of the Shorinji Kenpo community so to me it sounds a bit strange.

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 07:47
Gassho.
How can Buddhism be called a religion? It's got no god, and requires nothing to be taken on faith--the defining tenets of a religion. (I'm talking about northern Zen here; esoteric Buddhism is quite differnet, but attackingthat is a straw man.) Buddhism, such as Kongo Zen, is an ethical code.
Kesshu.

Martin Allerby
26th July 2002, 07:58
Hello!

During the 30’ anniversary of SK in Sweden Aosaka-sensei made a simile. He compared SK to a tree. The trunk of the tree was the basics of SK and the tree branches and the fruits of the tree were supposed to be formed in to a shape that fitted the modern society and the western life. This shaping should be performed by the SK kenshis of today he explained. The important thing was to keep the trunk of the tree - the basics of SK. I think that what Aosaka-sensei stated there was something very vital.

What is the negative part of making smaller adoption to an art so that it better fits in a modern society? If we in such ways can attract more students and teach them the basics of SK, isn’t that great? As I’ve been taught, So Doshin first started to teach philosophy, but the interest for only philosophy was limited. So he started to teach martial art techniques and philosophy. With this background I can hardly see why we shouldn’t be allowed to not say sensei to our teacher if our teacher is more comfortable with us using his forename. It will still be SK!

Maybe I miss something in the English language, but… “Given free rain, how would you change it?” We can have a philosophy discussion, but that will bring very little to this thread. This since I don’t see this thread from a philosophical point of view. I think it is more of a practical issue.

I have a different experience of Mizuno Sensei then the one that you are describing. I have great respect for him as a person and as SK sensei. When he said: Quote: “He would kick them... but first he would kick whoever had said it was OK to drop the title.” He must have meant it literary! Would you actually kick your students if they didn’t call you sensei? Is that SK?

I think that mutual respect I the key word here. When I go to Japan I will “do as the Romans do in Rome…”. Of course I will try my very best to show the people I meet on the street and the senseis that I train for with the best respect I can.

Can respect be one way only? Isn’t mutual respect something that we should put very high on our list of daily activities? If you don’t show respect how can you then expect to get respect? Not saying sensei to your teach doesn’t necessary mean disrespect – at least not In Sweden!

Best regards,


Martin Allerby, SK GBG SWEDEN

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 08:45
I think the changes to which Aosaka Sensei was referring are more to do with "add-ons"; for example, every national federation, and many individual branches, now have web sites, but in Kaiso's day, the WWW didn't exist, so changes have to be made to accomodate the new technology. Also, WSKO has just been majorly restructured, to comply with changes in Japanese law. These are elements that were unforeseeable, and so must be dealt with on an ad hoc basis.
Let's try turning the question round: How far can you make changes before the art ceases to be Shorinji Kempo? There has to be a point beyond the pale. (Hint: If you can't find it immediately, try suggesting something outrageous such as "Thou shalt kill three times a day". Since that is clearly outside a Kenshi's remit, next take a step back towards the current incarnation of Shorinji Kempo, and keep scaling down the transgressions until you find one with which you can live.)
I don't see why it's pointless to ask the question, "Given free reign, what changes would you make?" As you climb the ranks, you'll be in more of a position to make changes suited to your idea of how a branch or federation should be run. For example, when I started Shorinji Kempo, there was always a randori contest every year at the BSKF taikai, but once Gerry Rixen Sensei started organising the taikai, he dropped the randori component because he felt it didn't conform to the ideals of Shorinji Kempo. So, if you were Gerry Sensei, what changes would you make?

Magnus Andersson
26th July 2002, 09:07
Greetings,

Buddhism is not a religion you say? I better tell that to the tax autorities in Sweden since religious organisations (including the buddhist ones) are exempted from tax in Sweden. ;)

I don't mean to barge in on your discussion but I am of a curoius mind today. IF buddhism isn't a religion, why do you get the posibility to become monks? Isn't a monk first and foremost a practitioner of a religion? Maybe I get of the topic, but I am just so curious.

johan_frendin
26th July 2002, 09:18
Hello Tony!

You say that buddism requires nothing to be taken on faith. How can you follow the path of Shorinji Kempo if you don´t have faith and trust in the path you walk in life?
Buddism, as I understand it, requires lot of faith but not in gods but in the practise itself.

Anyway
The last issue of Shorinji Kempo newsletter Kaiso Philosophy talks about connecting people.

Kaiso said ”Warmth of heart and a life with relationships that are about relying on people and being relied on by them – when you have these things, your kenshi will bring new kenshi to meet you.”

If you in a certain country more easily can achieve a better connection between people by cutting away the Japanese hierarchy to “your” level I believe this is a better way. If not it is totally clear that the culture tradition is more important than Kaisos idea itself.

Johan Frendin
Visby Sweden

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 09:18
Gassho.
OK, Magnus, let's back up and ask: What is the definition of a religion? If we can't agree on terms, then this conversation is going nowhere. (I remember we debated the question of whether Shorinji Kempo is a religion previously in the Shorinji Kempo forum.) Ask a Swedish tax man why they think Buddhism is a religion, and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the answer you get will be "because Buddhists pray to Buddha" (which isn't true), as the western definition of religion includes the element of prayer for divine (i.e., supernatural) intercession. Yet, Shorinji Kempo explicitly specifies that praying is pointless. Sounds very humanistic to me. Oh, and if fanatical devotion is a criterion, then football must be a religion, too. I look forward to reading your definition.
Kesshu.

Martin Allerby
26th July 2002, 09:33
Hello everyone!

Change isn’t something bad! Changing is something good, something that should be encouraged. Development is change! If you are good and stops developing you will soon find your self not being good anymore. I think Kaizen – Japanese quality improvement philosophy can be applied to this case. Kaizen implies making daily small changes rather then big major changes every now and then. I think that is what we do every training. If we take the example from the technical training you do small adoptions to your techniques every time you practice with a new person. From your own sensei you were taught one or a few ways of doing a specific technique. Next time you meet another teacher he/she will show you the technique slightly different. You will make smaller adoptions so that it fits your physical and mental abilities. A large man does the technique quite different from a small woman! Both are still practicing SK. Right?

I have a different interpretation of what Aosaka sensei said/meant! I believe that he said that as long as you keep the trunk of the art – the basics - it will still be SK. Even if you do smaller changes! If SK stops developing the art is finished. However, every time I meet a high ranked WSKO instructor I feel that he have changed his focus a bit from time to time, but still keeping the basics. For instance, earlier SK relied more of pain in the techniques and today there is more focus on breaking the opponents balance. Fellow kenshis visiting Hombu last year experienced a “new” way of blocking gedan geri, practiced frequently at hombu at that time. My experience is that Hombu continuously are developing SK and that is great! The art is continuously developing and it is still SK.

I don’t know where the limit goes for changes. However not changing at all must be wrong.

Best regards,

Martin Allerby, SK GBG

Magnus Andersson
26th July 2002, 09:39
Well, as I said before I am not an exponent of SK so I don't know about your philosophy per say. To me religion means the service/worship/devotion of God or the supernatural. I.e. the belief in something higher (call it what you will). And I have met plenty of buddhist people, both in Sweden and in Japan, that has prayed, not to a Buddhist God but to the buddhist deities (which are quite numerous).

Shorinji Kenpo seems to have its own special kind of buddhism which may not fall under my definition... as I said, I was just curious...:)

Manuel
26th July 2002, 12:03
Gassho.

For me the question is: what is circumstantial to Shorinji Kempo and what is essential to Shorinji Kempo? The essential is what defines Shorinji Kempo, and what will allow to us continue saying "this is Shorinji Kempo" in spite of all the changes that can get to become, official or unofficially. Because the certain thing is that there was and there will continue being changes official level, and not for that reason has been yielded nothing in which are the essential principles of Shorinji Kempo. However, the circumstantial thing, by the fact of being so, does not lack of importance. I believe that the essence of Shorinji Kempo basically is gathered in the set of teachings we recite in Chinkon. For example, and since one of the points that are being brought more to discussion is the one of the importance of granting the title of "Sensei" in the West, we could recover the following part of Seigan: "we pledge… to respect those ahead of us". That respect is what seems to me that is the essential. The circumstantial thing is that it is expressed by means of the "Sensei" form of address. But circumstantial does not mean devoid of importance, but that is circumstantial because it is dependent of the temporary and space circumstances in which the art was developed. I think that to our Japanese teachers, like Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei, always we would have to grant that title, because it is as well as they feel our respect. I believe that the respect not only must be granted; also it must be felt. There is an active subject and a passive subject of the respect, and both must be conscious of it. The Japanese society maintains a layered structure much more rooted that, for example, the Swedish (since this has been put of example in this thread from the beginning), not only in the social scope, but also in the familiar one, the one of the relations between people of different sexes, and in the one of the relations between people of the same sex, even between friends. They always "know" who is worthy of the greater respect. The western societies, however, are much more equalitarian (formally) and more unstructured, but in the field of our social and personal relations we also "know" who are worthy of the greater respect, although we express it in a way much less formal, or even without any formality. There is no doubt for me that the kenshis of Sweden (to follow with the example put by Johan) respect their teachers like whom introduce to them and guide to them in the way, and don't need to use the title of "Sensei" so that these feel respected. A Swedish teacher (as one Spanish) even can feel uncomfortable with such a title, because in the context of our culture it is a too formal title and he marks too much distance between interlocutors, but a western teacher also knows when is respected and when not, even when his points of view are criticized, whenever it becomes at the opportune moment and place. Of course also he sees himself in the disagreeable obligation of have to demand that respect sometimes. Therefore I believe that in any case we must grant the title of Sensei to the Japanese masters and the western masters like minimum in the presence of those, because in the Japanese culture form is equal to content. This is circumstantial in Shorinji Kempo in my opinion, but not for that reason less important.

So Doshin fundamentally created a Japanese art for Japanese people, structured to the Japanese way, with a Japanese nomenclature and Japanese clothes. He could very well systematize the Shorinji Kempo following a Chinese methodology, with a Chinese nomenclature and Chinese clothes. And maybe now all we seemed Shaolin monks. I do not believe that is what defines the essence of Shorinji Kempo. Nevertheless I believe that we western practitioners must to be proud to practice an art with Japanese nomenclature and to dress in dogi to Japanese way, because we belong to a great world-wide ("universal") family with seat in Japan, that must "speak" a same language and whose founder ("we pledge… to affirm the founder", Seigan says) wanted that the things were thus for us. At first So Doshin addressed Shorinji Kempo to Japanese people, so that Japan recovered its pride, were renewed the solidarity among its people and the country had its place in a new peacefully world. At certain moment he decided that the principles of Shorinji Kempo and Kongo Zen were universal, and that had to spread therefore world-wide. That universality of the principles is what seems to me essential and not if we dress dogi or we don't dress it. Nevertheless that same universality could be put perhaps in danger if we yield to the centrifugal forces of our particular ways of life.

In fact I don't know if I will have added something new to the discussion. Greetings to all.

luar
26th July 2002, 14:24
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho.
OK, Magnus, let's back up and ask: What is the definition of a religion? If we can't agree on terms, then this conversation is going nowhere. (I remember we debated the question of whether Shorinji Kempo is a religion previously in the Shorinji Kempo forum.) Ask a Swedish tax man why they think Buddhism is a religion, and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the answer you get will be "because Buddhists pray to Buddha" (which isn't true), as the western definition of religion includes the element of prayer for divine (i.e., supernatural) intercession. Yet, Shorinji Kempo explicitly specifies that praying is pointless. Sounds very humanistic to me. Oh, and if fanatical devotion is a criterion, then football must be a religion, too. I look forward to reading your definition.
Kesshu.

This morning I feel like babbling here so be patient with me since I have been reading a lot of Joseph Campbell lately

What is your definition of God? Is God, Allah, Jehovah and Yahweh the same being? If not then there cannot be any further discussion of this thread since we would never agree.

I went to http://www.webster.com and looked up two terms Religion and Religious. That seemed to answer the question there in terms of what religion is and isn't but I think this is not the real question to be asked.

The real question to me is what is spirituality because God and religion cannot exist without it. For that matter, what is your personal experience with spirituality? My mother is an advance age where she subscribes to this prayer newsletter and recites these prayers before she goes to bed everynight. She only goes to church on Christmas and Easter. To her peers (Western) she is viewed as religious and I suppose "technically" she is. The one thing I can say with certainty is that she is not a spiritual person (sorry mom). I have never known her to use her beliefs to explain everyday events, man's origin and purpose for being here. Even if she went to church everyday, I cannot say that spirituality is part of her character and this is something you feel from people. An ex-girlfriend of mine met my sensei without knowing who he was and commented to me that she became aware that he was a very spriritual man. Now how do you explain that?

Does SK say that prayer is pointless? I read "What is SK?" and remember that my interpretation is that relying on an external diety does not take care of the present moment which is what Buddhism strives for. But is not meditation a form of prayer in which we seek our true nature to intercede or become more prevalent in our lives? Even Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have similar core messages.

To me humanism, culture, mythology, sociology, psychology and religion overlap each other because they have to. What are your core beliefs? What foundation do you build your life on? When the sh*t hits the fan, how do you recover?

In regards to your football player example, if the player is feeling connected to what they are doing, the people around them and their inner selves, then I believe they are having what is called a Zen moment. On the other hand, there is such a strong duality of football and sports in general, it be viewed as religious at a more mythological level: two opposing teams, one good and one evil, fighting the great cosmic battle. When your team wins, you feel like a winner... when your team loses, you riot or fire the visiting Korean player.

shugyosha
26th July 2002, 15:20
i think a religion begin when you want to impose your point of view as the only one true to other. philosophy is sharing, ovolution and undersanding with others.
when you quote your master and try to figure out what they mean its a religion mechanism, as if only one vision can be the good one and others bad.
i tell again and again, for me shorinji kenpo is a spirit, and kongo zen is a philosophy.
so doshin could have choosen any other word for is style, but he choose shorinji kenpo, why? although the technics are totaly deferent from any other shaolin style and other styles he learnt?
he changed the form
he kept the spirit
dont you think?

Gary Dolce
26th July 2002, 15:24
Gassho,

Before this thread diverges too much from the original question, I have two questions for Tony:

1. I don't expect or require my students to call me sensei. In your view, does this mean that I am not teaching or practicing Shorinji Kempo?

2. In your view, should I be kicked for allowing this? Should my students be kicked?

I have trained with Japanese teachers who were quite informal in their approach to teaching Shorinji Kempo. If anything, their approach has engendered greater respect than those who demand it.

I think there is a greater diversity of views on what is essential to Shorinji Kempo than you give credit for. I also think that the underlying philosophy is strong enough to accomodate that diversity.

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 16:57
Dolce Sensei,
to answer your questions first:
1. I am very disturbed by what I perceive to be the watering down of Shorinji Kempo teachings in recent years. My last return to the UK evidenced many changes where I used to train, but the tightly run ship I knew back when I lived there has gone.
2. Ask Mizuno Sensei; it's his line, not mine. Personally, I think you should be addressed as Sensei; it's like being in the army. You don'ttell lower ranks not to call you captain or sir.
To answer Luar, meditation is most definitely not a form of prayer, because prayer is an appeal to an external agent for intervention. Meditation is a form of introspection. They are completely different from each other. First, to pray, you need to believe there's something listening to your prayer.
Does any of this make sense?

luar
26th July 2002, 18:05
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
To answer Luar, meditation is most definitely not a form of prayer, because prayer is an appeal to an external agent for intervention. Meditation is a form of introspection. They are completely different from each other. First, to pray, you need to believe there's something listening to your prayer.
Does any of this make sense? [/B]

I would need to research what you said further because I certainly do not have an answer myself. In either case your words lead to even more questions.

I agree Meditation is a form of introspection but why is not prayer a form of introspection? When you have doubts that there is a God and you pray, then isn't that meditation since you are not convince that someone is listening to you? On the other hand are there not pious people who pray and when they allow themselves to have that moment to themselves in which they review their problem (aka introspection) finally see the situation for what they are. Sure they may believe that some form of external intervention gave them the answer but you also get the same result by meditating or talking with a friend who knows how to listen to you? For that matter, when one meditates does not one try to listen to that inner self, that God that is within you? As a former Catholic and thinking of my experiences with prayer, perhaps prayer to me is a more formal and ritualized form of mediation.

As facinating as this topic is, I suggest we create a new thread since as Gary stated, we pretty much have gone off topic here. Let me know if you are interested.

Kimpatsu
26th July 2002, 19:06
Originally posted by luar
I agree Meditation is a form of introspection but why is not prayer a form of introspection?
Because prayer is a request for divine intercession. You are not focused internally; you're looking outward. The two are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by luar
When you have doubts that there is a God and you pray, then isn't that meditation since you are not convince that someone is listening to you?
Why would you pray if you weren't even sure there was anyone listening? Would you deliver a speech to an empty room? Of course not. You'd consider it to be a pointless exercise. So who exactly prays without believing? Also remember that, rahter than making a wish list (prayer), which requires concentration, the object of meditation is to clear your mind, which is at odds with conscious recall of said wish list.

Originally posted by luar
Sure they may believe that some form of external intervention gave them the answer but you also get the same result by meditating or talking with a friend who knows how to listen to you? For that matter, when one meditates does not one try to listen to that inner self, that God that is within you? As a former Catholic and thinking of my experiences with prayer, perhaps prayer to me is a more formal and ritualized form of mediation.[/B]
Mediation or medidation? Mediation is what people request through prayer. If you think "god" is within you, then please define "god", because god is a supernatural being that is external to you. "God in me" is really a description of uncertainty, a placeholder for the unknown. Not a supernatural deity.

Originally posted by luar
As facinating as this topic is, I suggest we create a new thread since as Gary stated, we pretty much have gone off topic here. Let me know if you are interested. [/B]
If you want to create a new thread, please go ahead. You certainly don't need my permission. I've created new threads in the past, when I felt it was warranted.
BTW, does anyone else feel we need a gassho rei smilie?
Kesshu.

Gary Dolce
26th July 2002, 19:41
Tony,

Gassho (yes a gassho smilie would be useful),

Your response to my first question reminds me of a phrase I often use as a joke during practice: "Back in the old days, when things were tough ...."

Personally I haven't seen a watering-down of SK over the years I have been practicing. But I do believe that the more people you have teaching Shorinji Kempo, the greater the diversity of approaches - no matter how strictly you try to control the transmission. I see that as a natural result of expansion, which can have both good and bad consequences.

Regarding your second response - It seems a bit of a cop out to say that we are required to do things in a certain way and then respond with "don't ask me" when asked if you would things that way. Either you agree or you don't. If you don't, you are contradicting your original premise.

Kimpatsu
27th July 2002, 01:31
Dolce Sensei,
Gassho.
Where's the cop-out? I personally wouldn't kick people, but I did say that I believe people should be addressed by their titles.
As to your first point, in the old corps...

Kikazaru
29th July 2002, 14:50
I think this thread discusses a very interesting point. There is a great variation in the style of teaching and cultures of different Shorinji Kempo dojos.

I was very surprised when someone who had trained a lot in Japan told me that there is a greater variation in the style of Kempo training within Japan than there is between Britain and Japan. That was several years ago, and I now have the experience to confirm that fact.

I think most people teaching Shorinji Kempo feel that there is a certain core aspect that should be preserved. This seems to be the Kongo Zen philosophy and the technical syllabus. The technical syllabus has been pretty well formalised, and while you can be assured of finding new ways of doing techniques almost every time you train somewhere new, the general conditions and results of a technique are fairly well fixed.

As for the philosophy, the Fukudokuhon is just words in a book. I think there's something intangible about Kongo Zen philosophy that has to be experienced rather than read about. Almost everyone who has been training for a while knows all the basic tenets, and understands their literal meaning, but that is a world apart from living them. I've never met anyone who was a perfect exemplar of every Kongo Zen principle.

I don't think there is much relation between the culture of a particular dojo and the level of enlightened attitudes of Sensei and student members. I've often thought that the mixture of Japanese culture and Shorinji Kempo culture is confusing. It's difficult to deconstruct Shorinji Kempo to identify what elements are essentially Shorinji Kempo, and what are circumstantial Japanese culture.

The situation here in Scotland is similar to Sweden, we don't tend to make a lot of formal respect between student and teacher, don't make an effort to hold the door open for Sensei and so on. In the context of Scottish culture I would be ashamed to accept such treatment, and to be seen engendering such attitudes. We hold ideals such as humility and accountability higher than hierarchy so that criticism and interaction without seniority are welcome. When kenshi travel to other dojos however, they are aware that different dojo cultures exist and behave accordingly. When Kongo Zen ideals are upheld in Scotland we find overt respect not only uncomfortable but contrary to those ideals because only ego-driven people demand such treatment in Scotland. Overt respect is probably the most obvious example in our case but there are many other aspects that differ between dojos and accepting those is part of accepting other cultures.

Fundamentally, we are kenshi, training for the good of our bodies, our minds, and, we hope, for the benefit of others through the self-improvement we achieve. We copy what we are taught, and adapt it for our own condition. In order to coexist we must adapt our behaviour to suit the expectations of others if we have any expectation that others might respect and adopt our own attitudes.

johan_frendin
30th July 2002, 07:23
Hello J.Hale!

I believe I have the same opinion as you.
If we for example look at gassho rei many branches in the western world copy exactly the attitude towards gassho rei that Japanese branches/doin have.
Gassho rei are used after every short explanation sensei do, at the beginning and end of every a change of movement in kihon, quick gassho rei to all people above yourself, quick gassho rei to show hits(even worse also incorrect hits) at an often lower grade partner etc. When Japanese kenshis/branches act this way its an expression of Japanese culture and hierarchy and maybe that fits them well. But when a branch in western world exactly copy these behaviour it confuses the students and even worse it can create a kind of beggars mentality among kenshis in the branch that is really dangerous. It can create senseis that feel superiority to others and kenshis that are scared, begging and surely not treating others as themselfs.
Shorinji kempo in the western world must for that reason always and carefully be slightly adapted to the culture its introduced to.

Johan Frendin
Visby Sweden

Kikazaru
30th July 2002, 10:22
That sounds fairly similar to our own settling on the gassho rei issue. We don't tend to rei each other outside of the dojo. It makes you feel like you are in the Masons (a semi-secret society here in Britain, and perhaps some other countries?) and looks just as bad. In contrast, when I was in Japan where people come up with all kinds of idiosyncratic behaviour I got quite into rei'ing my Kempo buddies.

We rei upon entering and exiting the dojo, when begining and ending training with a partner, when begining and ending kihon, waza etc. and during ran dori but we don't all single out the Sensei for an extra special entering-the-dojo rei as is common in Japan and some other British dojos.

Kimpatsu
30th July 2002, 15:00
Again, I remember Mizuno Sensei giving someone a bollocking for failing to return a Gassho Rei outside the dojo. We are not the Masons, by virtue of our philosophy, which is vastly different. Learn that MOTIVE counts in these issues; unlike the Masons, we are not trying to identify each other in a secret society. We are acknowledging each other in a mutual brotherhood (sorority?)
I have performed rei to fellow kenshi outside the doin, and they have not responded. It hurts. We are Shrorinji Kenshi, and should be proud of the fact. Why are you so afraid to admit what you are?

Kikazaru
30th July 2002, 15:42
I guess I didn't explain myself sufficiently in my previous post. I'm certainly not afraid to admit that I am a Shorinji Kempo kenshi. In fact, as chance may have it, I'm a walking advert for Shorinji Kempo -I'm wearing one of my huge collection of accumulated kempo T-shirts today.

I'm also well aware that we are not the Masons. My point was that strange gestures are not perceived well here. The way our actions are perceived defines, to an extent, their meaning. That is why I said that in order to coexist we must adapt our behaviour to suit the expectations of others if we have any expectation that others might respect and adopt our own attitudes. Since we certainly do hope that others will be impressed by the good example that we set it is inevitable that certain culturally related changes will affect the style of any particular Shorinji Kempo dojo.

For example, it's generally accepted that a degree of cultural sensitivity is necessary regarding the use of the manji in some Western countries. That's not because we would be Nazi fascists if we wore the manji :eek: but because we might be *perceived* as such, or perceived as insensitive to that connotation.

Kimpatsu
30th July 2002, 18:09
But that's my whole point. Such perception is erroneous to begin with, since people who mistake the manji for the swastika are just not educated enough to know the difference. And you know the kicker? I've never met anyone who didn't know the difference; when you start to explain, they interrupt with, "But I knew that already! Of course I know that the swastika and the mani are different!"
They're thinking on a sub-humanoid level where they know the difference, but don't process it.
Put another way, how are we ever going to educate people when they won't listen? Prominently displaying the manji would at least invite debate. Are you ashamed of the manji? If not, why won't you wear it? Are you that ashamed to be a kenshi?
BTW, a Shorinji Kempo practitioner is called a Shorinji Kenshi, not a "Shorinji Kempo Kenshi", which is tautological. HTH.
Kesshu.

David Dunn
21st August 2003, 20:36
Originally posted by Martin Allerby


I have a different experience of Mizuno Sensei then the one that you are describing. I have great respect for him as a person and as SK sensei. When he said: Quote: “He would kick them... but first he would kick whoever had said it was OK to drop the title.” He must have meant it literary! Would you actually kick your students if they didn’t call you sensei? Is that SK?... Not saying sensei to your teach doesn’t necessary mean disrespect – at least not In Sweden!

I must be bored, going through these old forums. The answer Martin is 'yes quite possibly he would.' How can we tell him what is or what is not Shorinji Kempo :D

Anchan
29th August 2003, 15:20
I started to learn Shorinji Kempo in Japan and studied it on and off for 4 years before returning to the UK and continuing.

At times I did feel that some philosphies of Shorinji Kempo were aimed at moulding the individual into a "good Japanese person".

From this I reasoned that although I felt that I was gaining a lot from my study of SK, not all aspects of SK were ideally suited to myself. But, by looking at the basic principles of SK, I realised that by working these into my training, thoughts and life, I could achieve personal growth, both mentally and physically.

Yes, it is a Japanese art, but it can be applied across the world.
After all a lot of the teachings are common sense and similarities can be found in most major religions.
:)

Tripitaka of AA
30th August 2003, 13:11
Welcome Andy

You have an unusual history compared with most Kenshi, we'd welcome any insight you might have, on the differences you have encountered during your studies.

For example, how did you come to study Shorinji Kempo... as opposed to another Martial Art? Do you think that you train like a Japanese person, or are you just like all the other UK Kenshi now? Is the Gakka introduced at an earlier level in the UK, while the Japanese Kenshi are more happy to learn by rote?

Anchan
1st September 2003, 17:40
I was interested in starting a martial art, and seeing that I was in Japan, I thought what better place to start. I was introduced by my then "boss" at the time - An English bloke called Alan Johnson, he's also back in the UK training at the Oxford Dojo.
I looked at others before and during the time I was in Japan, and SK's pholosphy and style just appealled more than any other art, plus a healthy dose of Alan's enthusiasm for SK also encouraged me.

As for differences, this is a difficult question. As you might expect, the English Kenshi will question their sensei's techniques and the Philosophy of SK, whereas the Japanese will sit patiently and listen - Perhaps having their doubts about what the sensei is saying, but not expressing them. This difference is a reflection of the differences in school classrooms in the two countries.

One other major difference, is that most Kenshi I have met in the UK are educated to degree level or above, whereas in Japan, people come from all walks of life. This obviously comes from the fact that most Kenshi in the UK started SK at university.
Most Japanese do too, but at University in Japan, SK is treated as a "club" activity and most people do not continue on afterwards.

As for Gakka, it was introduced very formally to me by my Sensei when I first started and continously so throughout my time there. There wasn't much room for analysis or interpretation of the Gakka. It was very much set in stone. This was one aspect I found difficult, especially not coming from a Buddhist background.

The training itself is very similar. The session has a very similar structure to the Japanese session. Warm-up, Kihon, Chinkon, split into belt groups. I was pleasantly suprised by this and also at the level of performance by people here. Most sho-dan here would be a comfortable ni-dan in Japan

As for myself, I don't feel like I train as Japanese Kenshi or a UK Kenshi. I'm just training

I could go on, but that's just a few small differences

Tripitaka of AA
1st September 2003, 22:41
Thanks for that Andy.

My own experience of Shorinji Kempo in UK is from the Abbey Dojo. There, I must tell you, the Kenshi are drawn from every conceivable walk of life. Most of the Japanese Kenshi I ever met, were those taking a year off after College.

Kimpatsu
2nd September 2003, 01:45
Gassho.
Even in Japan, most kenshi are universtiy students, because it is through universities that Shorinji Kempo does most of its recruiting. We're called the "thinking person's martial art", but given that we recruit mostly through universities, I think that's a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Kesshu.

David Dunn
2nd September 2003, 10:47
Hi Andy,
thanks for the observations. On the following:

Originally posted by Anchan
As for Gakka, it was introduced very formally to me by my Sensei when I first started and continously so throughout my time there. There wasn't much room for analysis or interpretation of the Gakka. It was very much set in stone. This was one aspect I found difficult, especially not coming from a Buddhist background.

I guess Mizuno Sensei's dojos are a bit unusual. He does encourage kenshi to analyse and experiment in technical training. He says that he likes the inquisitiveness of British Kenshi. (That seems to be the Busen way as well). For Gakka it is similar to what you describe. There is room for analysis and interpretation, but only after you've mastered it, as it were. Discussions in howa are rare.

Tripitaka of AA
2nd September 2003, 12:48
I found it much easier to teach techniques to juniors using Sensei's words and my best imitation of his movements... but Howa talks are a lot harder to do when you try and imitate someone else. I think that anyone trying to write the answers to a Gakka question for grading, or give a talk on the subject, will be inclined to paraphrase into their own terms.

This is probably how I came to have developed my own interpretation of Kongo Zen. Now shown to be incorrect (see thread titled "What is Kongo Zen... again".

David Dunn
2nd September 2003, 13:10
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
I found it much easier to teach techniques to juniors using Sensei's words and my best imitation of his movements.

I know what you mean David. Sometimes when you have a specific descriptions of Sensei's in mind it is difficult not to say it in a Japanese accent and turn of phrase. Things like: kick to the floor, up your leg, full stretching, head to pull back, carefully to cover the stomach ichiji position of the front hand. That's how it has become programmed into me, so it tries to come out like that as well. Hopefully I don't end up sounding strange.

As to Gakka, I've got this pink book which I find quite useful :D

jonboy
2nd September 2003, 13:55
Hopefully I don't end up sounding strange.
Not strange, but it is easy to tell you are a student of Mizuno sensei. :)

David Dunn
2nd September 2003, 13:57
Originally posted by jonboy
Not strange, but it is easy to tell you are a student of Mizuno sensei. :)

I'll `interpret' that in a positive light :)

Kimpatsu
2nd September 2003, 13:59
Gassho.
I think, "Up your leg" says it all, really. ;)
Kesshu.

Tripitaka of AA
2nd September 2003, 21:23
... never did get a pink book :(

But do I sound like Jee Sensei, to you? ;)

Thinking about it, I probably didn't get to hear too many Howa lectures from anyone other than Jee Sensei or Mizuno Sensei (I had no car, and only rarely visited other clubs, Terry Goodman Sensei and Richard Jarman Sensei)... but does Russel Jenkins Sensei still sound Japanese? :D

Kimpatsu
2nd September 2003, 23:34
Gassho.
David (N), the pink book to whihc David (D) refers is the English translation of the Fukudokuhon, which was first published in the early 1990s, after you had left the fold.
HTH.
Kesshu.

David Dunn
2nd September 2003, 23:51
Anders Sensei explained to me at summer camp that the Fukudokuhon has been replaced by the two Tokuhon in Japanese, probably to be followed in English.

David N: Russell, Terry and Richard Senseis were all at summer camp too.

Tripitaka of AA
2nd September 2003, 23:55
I thought as much.... pah! Young folk today don't know how lucky they are!!!

There I was, writing out Aosaka Sensei's Howa from memory (no recording Walkman in those days), all about people with "face like potato", when my quill broke and the candle burned out. No little pink books to refer to, just a few scraps of paper with cryptic messages about "Diamonds", "Stopping a Spear" and badly spelled "Happomoku".

Now I know you all have a book! Well, I'm not half as impressed by your superb grasp of Japanese terminology... ;)

Kimpatsu
2nd September 2003, 23:58
Gassho.
Jealousy is a green-eyed monster, David... ;)
Kesshu.