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gato
11th August 2000, 17:55
I read the excellent post about the relationship of “ aiki ” and Kenjitsu and i thought....
“aiki” in Daito ryu and Yanagi ryu is a tecnique that was concived in the context of combat with edge weapons and later aplied to taijutsu arts (Aiki-jujitsu).
Knowing some of the caracteristics of the aiki tecnique application in combat reality, i wonder if you can make a comparison between this and the more vague concept of aiki in conflict found in aikido
The aikido strategie (tecniques) is effective per se?
Is there a relationship between this and the famous quote of Ueshiba : “aikido is 99% atemi”
Just curiosity
Thank you

Nelson Sanz

Kendoguy9
11th August 2000, 18:28
I am no expert on Daito-ryu or aikido, but I will try to answer the question based on my limited knowledge. Aiki as described by Katsuyuki Kondo sensei, of Daito-ryu, is off balancing at the moment of contact. So the very second the uke or the attacker makes any sort of contact with you, they should be off balanced already. When they strike you, the instant your hand touches them with a block, parry, or other such defense they should be off balanced. Many times with very small taisabaki the uke will be pulled off balance, and straight in to a punch or other atemi. So Ate-waza is very important in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu to create instant off balancing, which Kondo sensei calls aiki. This might be a dumbed down concept, Kondo sensei gave us just to make learning easy, I don't know. I susspect that aiki in Daito-ryu is far more complex then that. Or maybe it's not, just very hard to do :).

Gambatte!!!

Richard Elias
11th August 2000, 21:43
Nelson,

The concept of aiki in Yanagi Ryu is a little different than in Daito Ryu, or in Aikido. And I would venture to say it is probably a little different in every style.

That not withstanding, Aiki in our school can be defined as "those methods or techniques that decieve or effect the opponent's senses". In a philisophical sense you can say that these technique off-balace the opponent mentally. But physical contact is not necessary.

Speaking only of our school, we attempt to control the attacker's center at the moment of physical contact with him, but not alway off-balance him. The reason being, we prefer to have as many options as possible. If you off-balance an opponent in a certain direction, and then decide that necessity dictates that your throw him in another direction, you then may have to reposition the opponent to make the change. This may allow an opportunity for the opponent to counter. If, by contrast, you simple assume control of the opponent's center, by weighting him down or making him light, you can throw in any direction.

Of course this doesn't always apply. There are often instances where the opponent attacks very aggresively and more efficient to "help" him in the direction he is going, and never allow him to stop. There are simple too many variations in application to go into them all.

In regards to the relationship to swordsmanship, Aiki, and the quote “aikido is 99% atemi.”

I was studying Aikido with Pat Hendricks during one of Saito Sensei's visits to the US. I have seen comments of other sites and forums speculating that atemi meant the off-balancing of the opponent. According to what Saito Sensei stated during the seminar, that's not entirely accurate. Saito, at that time, when asked about the quote, spoke only of opportunities to strike the opponent. He Pointed out the in many of the old photos you see Ueshiba entering and striking, often with a fan. He said that too many school of Aikido neglect the striking aspect. In Iwama the striking is still emphisized.

In swordsmanship you often avoid the opponent's attack and enter with one of your own. Simultainiously. In taijutsu it is the same. Whenever you avoid an attack, and are entering, there is an opportunity to strike. The strike, even if it doesn't physically do so, can off-balance the opponent mentally by distracting him from his initial attack.

I hope this helps a little.

Brently Keen
12th August 2000, 03:01
I don't know if this will help or only confuse the issue more, but in the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu aiki is used to off-balance the opponent, but I would NOT say that aiki IS off-balancing the opponent. Nor is just off-balancing the opponent considered aiki.

There are many ways to off-balance someone - pushing, pulling, twisting, feinting, uprooting, dropping, using atemi, etc... In Daito-ryu, aiki is a particular method that is used to effect the balance the opponent. In the Roppokai branch, it is the preferred method, and is practiced very extensively. I'm not sure if this is what Kondo sensei actually meant and if this clarifies what he was saying, or if this is actually a difference between how our respective branches understand aiki.

I also agree with Richard that aiki as taught in the Roppokai, does also deceive and/or effect the opponent's senses, but from my perspective that is what it "does" not what it is.

In all fairness, Richard said that in Yanagi-ryu, aiki can be defined as "THOSE METHODS or TECHNIQUES that decieve or effect the opponent's senses". I capitalized "those methods or techniques" to emphasize that WHAT I THINK AIKI IS is "those methods or techniques". Richard's statement is also true of aiki in the Roppokai, but some of the methods and techniques used in our respective traditions are certainly different.

As I and others have noted in a number of previous threads our understandings of what aiki is - are different. Although we'll all talk about deceiving/effecting the senses, kuzushi, and controlling the opponent, we may not be talking about the same method or technique of doing so. And this constitutes some of the important distinction(s) between our arts, as well as between our understanding/interpretation of what aiki is. Much of what can only be shown in person over a period of time.

Aiki is AI-KI, harmonization of ki, right? Or could it be coordination, synchronization, synthesis, unification, or simply the meeting of ki? And then what is ki? There many interpretations and explanations of what ki is (and let's please not go there again).

Okamoto sensei says, "aiki is when you and your opponent become one". But what does that mean? One in what way or ways?

In Daito-ryu we have both a concept of aiki as well as actual aiki techniques. The concept and the thing itself are not the same. IMHO and limited experience many schools use or have borrowed the concept of aiki, but I think the actual aiki techniques as transmitted in Daito-ryu are unique, therefore our interpretation of aiki is also going to differ somewhat from other schools.

We have specific explicit and implicit ways of explaining and defining these terms as we use them in the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu, and these specifics are some of what I feel makes Daito-ryu aiki unique. Many of these distinctives are okuden and hiden from our tradition.

Aiki in Daito-ryu was developed within a context where edged weapons were not only prevelent, but were prefered for use in combat. However, aiki was also developed within a context where their use was not favored, or was restricted such as in the castle or in the presence of the shogun. According to oral tradition, the orgins of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu also lie in the ancient art of tegoi, which was the precursor of sumo. Certainly a taijutsu art.

I think a lot of people may misunderstand the relationship between aikijujutsu and kenjutsu. There is no doubt that there is an important and significant relationship between the two, but I believe it may be an over-simplification (and possibly a misstatement) to say that aiki was a development of kenjutsu that was later applied to taijutsu. There are principles of both that are the same, but that doesn't necessitate that one came from or preceeded the other.

Just my rather limited perspective from within the lower ranks of the Roppokai branch of Daito-ryu.

Brently Keen






[Edited by Brently Keen on 08-11-2000 at 09:05 PM]

Richard A Tolson
12th August 2000, 09:08
Brently,
Very interesting summation!
The more I learn about Roppokai, the more I realize why our views on aiki diverge like they do. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that Okamoto Sensei has sought to master and teach the aikijutsu rather than aikijujutsu method of Daito-ryu. The aikijujutsu that I learned leaned much more towards a jujutsu emphasis, while at the same time incorporating the aiki principle in it.
BTW, in the book GOKUI SODEN DAI NI MAKI there are specific examples of Niten Ichi Ryu sword techniques that mirror aikijujutsu techniques. They are very interesting.

Richard Elias
13th August 2000, 11:05
Again I can not speak for other styles, only from what I practice.

In our school the connection between aikijujutsu and kenjutsu is very strong. Most of our major forms, many others as well, have kenjutsu applications, and were derived from kenjutsu. Whenever my teacher shows us something that to us is new, he demonstrates the sword application, to give us a better idea of how the technique was intended.

And, without trying to be confrontational, the term aiki was used in kenjutsu long before it was developed in taijutsu. It is widely believed and supported by numorous marial arts authorities for many years, that swordmanship was developed before jujutsu forms became advanced. Weapons were always the bushi's first form of defence. He always always had one with him or near by. It was required of him. Even when in court the bushi was allowed to have a dagger or short sword with him. And there was also the fan, which as you know can be very useful. It was only natural that when battle became less frequent that the bushi would take what he already knew and apply it to the situations he was in now. Cutting down everyone you had a problem with was frowned upon. Though there are numerous stories of such incidents. The less "hostile" bushi found other ways to use what he learned with less, shall we say, permanent results. As these situations became the norm, he developed such skills even further to become the adavanced form of jujutsu we have today. The forms developed by/for the law enforcement of the period not withstanding, since most of that was also developed by the bushi, only the professional warrior had the time or the inclination to develope such arts. And the professional warrior of the time was always a swordsman.

Henry Cawilan
14th August 2000, 18:57
The problem is students who practice swordsmanship are not professional warriors. They will more than likely never use their swords in the context in which they practice. Most of the practice become somewhat theoretical. The idea of aiki also becomes theoretical. So unless you actually fight or become a sword wielding professional warrior you won't really know what aiki is. So this becomes sort of like arm chair warrior theory discussion. Kind of like playing dungeons and dragons.

How many of you in here are actual professional fighters? I bet none. How could you then ever figure out the concept of aiki without training like a professional? What I see are extremely dedicated and learned hobbyist who are academically inclined, but nothing else. Kind of like historical re-enactors. Sure you can dress up like a samurai, but it doesn't mean you can fight. Sure you can think like you are doing aiki like the samurai of old, but you are really are not because you really do not have the time or inclination to do so. You might say that you have the inclination, but you really do not because you are not a samurai and this is not 16th century Japan. The quest for aiki is like a dream...the Holy Grail of martial arts. I do hope one of you get it someday.

Richard Elias
15th August 2000, 07:16
Henry,

With all due respect, the topic of dicussion here was the relationship between Aiki and kenjujutsu. The point of my particular post was that they have been connected for centuries and were developed by professional warriors. No one at any time has laid claim to being a professional warrior or fighter.

In regards to being "an arm chair warrior" I beg to differ. While I can't speak for others, in my school we do train for real, with real swords, at real speeds. Students have gotten cut and stabbed in the process. We do apply Aiki at these levels, and it does work. It is nothing like playing dungeons and dragons. I have never had to go to the hospital for stitches from a sword wound playing dungeons and dragons.

And incidently I train every day. Every single day without fail. And that's in addition to the regular five classes we have at the dojo each week. Of course, I still do not claim to train as much as the warriors of old, but that was all they did. Unfortunately I have to keep a job and pay the bills.

I get the feeling that your post was designed to prevoke a responce and possibly to start some sort of flame war. I hope that that doesn't happen, as your post is somewhat invalid. You really shouldn't make such gross generalizations when you obviously don't know any of the people who post here personally, what kind of training they do, or what they have gone through. There are many here who have had to use their respective arts, in real life, to save their lives. That is not acacdemic and not a game.

Have a nice day :)

Brently Keen
15th August 2000, 08:45
Richard Tolson,

I agree that our views on aiki diverge. Your conclusion is a common one shared by many, but I'm not sure I agree completely.

Okamoto sensei mastered and teaches Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. His branch of the tradition is called Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai. Daito-ryu as a tradition includes both jujutsu and aiki no jutsu. Aiki however is the essence of Daito-ryu. Daito-ryu at it's highest level, and as a complete system is characterized as "aikijujutsu".

Okamoto sensei does emphasize aiki no jutsu techniques rather than jujutsu techniques in our day to day training. Please notice I only said, "rather than jujutsu" not "rather than aikijujutsu", and I said emphasize not replace or substitute. I believe he does this for several reasons:

One, aiki is the crucial element in and essence of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu - not jujutsu. Two, there are many accomplished masters that can teach jujutsu, but you can count on one hand the number of masters that can teach aiki. Three, aiki is much more difficult to learn than jujutsu, so it requires more emphasis in order to gain proficiency.

Since it is his desire and responsibility to transmit not only the tradition he has received, but also his technical skills and abilities, he is taking extra care to emphasize the essence of that tradition which is also the essence of his skills and abilities. The aiki no jutsu techniques of Daito-ryu embody and manifest that essence concretely, where as the principle/concept of aiki merely describes it abstractly.

The other emphasis of training in the Roppokai is oyo waza. Applied techniques are aikijujutsu techniques for various situations. This is probably equal in emphasis in terms of actual training time spent during an average class.

Richard Elias,

I agree with your post, and I'm not really interested in debating the orgin of the term "aiki" or whether aiki derives from the sword or the sword from aiki. Jujutsu can also be said to derive from the sword, it's a chicken or egg debate, IMO and it was not the point I was trying to make.

What I said was: "I think a lot of people may misunderstand the relationship between aikijujutsu and kenjutsu." And I certainly wasn't meaning to imply you. Perhaps my comment would make more sense if I put it this way: "I think a lot of people may misunderstand the relationship between taijutsu and kenjutsu".

Kenjutsu essentially involves body movements. Aikijujutsu also essentially involves body movements (albeit often subtle and hidden ones). High level kenjutsu, particularly those traditions that may have used the term aiki "long before it was developed in taijutsu" essentially involved aikijujutsu concepts or principles applied to their body movements.

The notion that taijutsu/jujutsu/aikijujutsu implies "empty-handed" arts is in my opinion the source of much misunderstanding. Historically, we both know these arts all originally developed in a kenjutsu context (or other weapons environment). Strict empty-handed practice was the later exception and development of a more peaceful era.

It is often stated and believed that in order to master aikijujutsu, you must first study the sword, but it can also be said that in order to master the sword you must first study taijutsu. From the Daito-ryu perspective the sword and aikijujutsu are essentially the same, and to master either you must study body mechanics/movement and learn how the body works (actually how the whole person works). Therefore, from our perspective the sword may be helpful, but is not necessary to master aikijujutsu. Perhaps what is necessary is to master the self.

In Daito-ryu our toho (sword method) is aiki-ken. These are not just aiki concepts or principles used in kenjutsu, but are the actual application of aiki movements/techniques to situations in kenjutsu.


Brently Keen

Richard Elias
15th August 2000, 11:12
Brently,

"I agree with your post, and I'm not really interested in debating the orgin of the term "aiki" or whether aiki derives from the sword or the sword from aiki. Jujutsu can also be said to derive from the sword, it's a chicken or egg debate, IMO and it was not the point I was trying to make."

Sorry about my misunderstanding.

But I was mostly responding to your statement-
"I believe it may be an over-simplification (and possibly a misstatement) to say that aiki was a development of kenjutsu that was later applied to taijutsu. There are principles of both that are the same, but that doesn't necessitate that one came from or preceeded the other."

And then in your last post-
"High level kenjutsu, particularly those traditions that may have used the term aiki "long before it was developed in taijutsu" essentially involved aikijujutsu concepts or principles applied to their body movements."

The origin of the term wasn't my point except for if the term was used then it stands to reason that the concept was present also. And that being the case, the concept of Aiki was developed in swordsmanship prior to its inclusion to the empty hand arts. That's not to say aspects of Aiki were not present in jujutsu even then, but that the concept of Aiki as a seperate element in and of itself was derived from swordsmanship. It can then be argued then (is that what I'm doing now?) that high level Aikijujutsu essentialy involved kenjutsu concepts or principles applied to their body movement.

I might agree that it is a chicken and egg thing except for the fact the sword arts were developed to higher levels (and included the concept of Aiki) prior to that of jujutsu. It is well known that the arts of jujutsu didn't really develope to high levels until the Edo period. Daito Ryu itself, it has been specutlated, may not have even developed to its present state of sophistication until Takeda Sokaku, who had also studied several sword styles. And as you know, it was he that introduced the term Aiki, and possibly the concept itself, to the Daito Ryu.

Again, I will reiterate that the topic was the relationship of Aki, kenjutsu, and Aikido. They are all related. Ueshiba studied several styles of swordsmanship, jujutsu, spear and staff arts, and they are all evident in the manner in which Aikido is performed. The footwork, postures, entries and evasions, were very much derived from swordsmanship, and are some of the distinguishing factors between it and the Daito Ryu.

"'What I said was: "I think a lot of people may misunderstand the relationship between aikijujutsu and kenjutsu.' And I certainly wasn't meaning to imply you."

You are absolutely right. But, I think that relationship varies from school to school. In our school it is greatly emphasized, in others it may not be. But for the most part it is there in some form or another.

By the way, I never took what you posted personally. It was just a little history to give perspective. I wasn't trying to make it into the issue that it has become.

O.K. I'm done now. :wave:

Henry Cawilan
15th August 2000, 21:24
Richard,

I apologize if I went off on a tangent regarding the actual topic of conversation. However, what I was trying to say is that how could you or any other person on this board know what aiki is or where it comes from or how it originated. What I see are pure academic speculation. It's kind of useless to argue over something that you don't really know about. I believe that you can really only know about aiki if you are a professional warrior/fighter or if you actually were there when Takeda thought of the concept of aiki. You are not and you were not there.

I'm sure you are a diligent and serious student and train very hard. Getting cut and stabbed in training...sure I can believe that. If you are training with sharp objects there are bound to be some accidents here and there. It doesn't make you training more real and it doesn't make you a samurai as you would like to believe. I also doubt that you train enough as you would like to others to believe. How long is your class? 1.5 hours? How much of those 5 times a week class is spent doing ken jitsu. I bet once a week. When you got cut and your classmates stabbed was this in the context of free fighting or kata? I bet it happened in kata. I don't believe for a second that your school practices free fighting with live blades as you would have readers in here assume. I bet you don't even practice your kata as often as you would like people in here to believe. Students who got stabbed probably stabbed themselves in the process of a poorly executed draw. You probably got cut because of a poorly executed draw and by your partner not being aware enough to be careful. I'm sure Yanagi Ryu is a venerable school and its teacher masterfull. I don't see Don Angier coming in here giving history lessons and talking about where aiki came from or what it is. I bet Don Angier just practices his art quietly. I'm sure he knows what aiki is. It doesn't come from academic debate and arm chair theorizing the way I've seen you do so often.

No one in here knows what aiki is. I did not write this to start a flame war. It's simply an observation. I apologize if I offend you or anyone else in this forum. If I am wrong please correct me. I simply do not understand why there is such an overkill of threads and discussion regarding what aiki is or is not when no one really know what it is. Why don't people just train???

Pardon my ignorance.

Thank you for taking time in responding.

Richard Elias
16th August 2000, 00:39
Well...I was done. :rolleyes:

Henry,

Please understand, I was not offended by your post. I simply felt that you might not know enough about what and how the people who post here train to make such accusations. If it is my posts alone you dislike, then please by all means ignore them.

You are right that I do not know exactly where Aiki originated. But there are schools of swordsmanship that claim documentation of the concepts of aiki that date back before anything in relation to jujutsu. No, I havn't seen them and I don't read japanese. My point was that it did not necessarily originate with jujutsu. And incidently it did not originate with Takeda Sokaku. The term was perportedly suggested to him by his own instructor. He did in fact, in his ealier days refer to the art as jujutsu and not aikijujutsu. This has been well documented in his own ledgers that are still extant.

The main argument I see over the concept of aiki thus far is its definition. Different schools transmit or portray what aiki is in different ways. I have been very explicit that my views are based on what I have been taught in the school that I train. I am a student and still learning. I personally did not take part in the aiki debates that took place on these forums in the past. I did read them but did not participate. I didn't see the point.

And I don't believe that I am samurai. They were abolished a long time ago by their own government. But I do study one of the traditions that they left behind and am very proud of it. It wasn't easy to get into, and I moved away from my family, friends, and job(no big loss there though) just to be a part of it.

As far as training with sharp objects making it more real. Actually I believe it does. I hadn't train with live weopons so much before I came to this school. I have found that doing so removes some of the complacency that would normally develope in training with only wooded weapons. You have to stay more aware for the price of failure is a bit higher.

You are also right that our training is done in kata form. Two man and solo long forms. We used to "duel" prior to and after class, with bokken mind you, but we were disallowed by our intructor. I have never at any time stated that we do free fighting with live blades, and if you got that impression I apologized for misrepresentation. On one of the other threads I was asked about the use of live blades in our school, and I do not recall having ever stated that we do free fighting with live blades. But we do use them in things other than tameshigiri practice. We do kata at full speed with live blades, but not duelling. My sword is quite scratched, chipped and dulled as a result.

When I got cut was during a kata practice, as you surmised. I was being attacked from behind, and had to turn, draw, and shift in one movement, upon hearing my partner draw his sword. No signalling. The fault of the cut was entirely my own. I failed to to shift my weight all the way and as a result got my elbow sliced open as I was drawing. It was at full speed and my partner was unable to stop his cut at the point I got hit. Others have gotten cut because of mistakes during drawing, and also from application of technique. I cut one of our students twice on two different occasions as we were assisting our instructer in the filming of a video. But they were minor. You can really only be so careful, and still maintain realism. If your not in danger of injury then you not training realistically.

I do train each and every day, and practice my kata each day. Whether you wish to believe that or not is of no consequence to me. Most people don't believe me unless they know me. But I don't do this for others I do this for me. Is it, as you say, enough? Doubtful. What is enough?

As far as my teacher is concerned. He does attend these forums. But does not post. In fact, he will probably be reading this. This is something I only recently found out.
As far as just practicing his art quietly...I wouldn't exactly say that. (there's a joke in there somewhere)
But he doesn't choose to get involved, if that's what you mean. He leaves that to others.

I take it upon myself to post here. I find it interesting, and I get to debate such subjects with knowedgeable people who, some of which, are as passionate about the arts as I am.

I do agree with you that much of this is academic. But I wouldn't call training all the time, trying to learn these things, and sharing what you learn with others "armchair theorizing".
I'm not making this stuff up while sitting in a big comfortable chair smoking a pipe.
I am on the mat. Training and taking instuction from one of the most talented martial artists I have ever met, seen, or heard of. Who, incidently, does have a fair grasp on the subject.

Again, as I've stated before, what aiki is, what it means and how it is applied, is different from school to school, style to style. Which is much of the reason for debate.

Again, and please don't take offence, I find your observation somewhat invalid. If I may ask, do you study at a school that teaches aiki technique? Have you ever expierenced it and recieved instruction in its principles and application from someone who can talk about it and do it also?

It does make a difference. The stuff is difficult to grasp, and even with an experienced intructor, hard to explain in mere words. It really must be experienced.

People talk about it here specifically because its hard to understand. When you are involved so deeply into something you become very passionate about it. You want to talk about it and share and learn. If you don't understand that, I am sorry. And if it bothers you so much, then I don't understand why you are here and paying attention at all.

If the kids want to fight over the ball let them. They'll either end up playing together or playing alone.

Next?

Nathan Scott
16th August 2000, 01:11
Mr Cawilan,

First off, welcome to e-budo.

I must say though that I found your comments towards Mr. Elias unwarranted and quite inflammatory. I don't know if you intended them that way or not, but his reply to you was much more polite than alot of list-ka here would have been.

I would caution you to hold back from random accusations like "I bet you don't even practice your kata as often as you would like people in here to believe" unless you have a compelling reason to do so.

Your comments come across as rash, and poorly considered. This is a friendly discussion group, attended by some pretty experienced and senior Budoka. It might be worthwhile to follow the list a bit longer before jumping in and attacking one of it's regular contributors.

I would guess that most people participating in this forum train on at least a fairly regular basis, and write/read here in between dojo practices to supplement their understanding of what they're learning or would possibly like to learn. I happen to write here during the day while I'm at work, because I find it difficult to train and perform my job at the same time. So I take advantage of internet discussions and research while at the job instead. But when I'm not here, I'm training or teaching, and sometimes experimenting with things I pick up from my colleagues on the net.

In any regard, I think Mr. Elias replied to your specific points adequately, so I won't address them further.

It sounds like you have something to say, so if you can say it politely we'd be happy to hear it.

Thanks for your cooperation and consideration,


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 08-15-2000 at 07:16 PM]

Mark Jakabcsin
16th August 2000, 03:40
Henry wrote: “No one in here knows what aiki is. I did not write this to start a flame war. It's simply an observation. I apologize if I offend you or anyone else in this forum. If I am wrong please correct me. I simply do not understand why there is such an overkill of threads and discussion regarding what aiki is or is not when no one really know what it is. Why don't people just train??? “

What gives Henry? I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I understand that you feel these posts are a waste of time and can accept your view even if I don’t agree. I am trying to understand your thought process in why you posted the above statement in only your second post and more of the same on your first post. When you read these posts if you felt they were a complete waste of time but then you decide to waste your valuable time signing on to e-budo then posting twice? “I see others completely wasting their time and I wish to join them.” Somehow that doesn’t make sense to me so I assume you have another motive. Just curious.

The second thing I find interesting about your posts was when you stated that it would be impossible to learn or know anything about aiki unless you were there when Takeda Sensei developed the concept. As Rich pointed out the concept was around before Takeda, but, lets run with your timeframe anyway. By your logic it was impossible for Takeda Sensei to teach aiki after he developed the concept and only those lucky one or two people there at that specific time had the opportunity to learn aiki. Why do you feel that Takeda couldn’t teach aiki afterwards? What is it about aiki that makes you think no one can learn it unless they were there? Basically, you are saying that it is impossible for humans to teach and pass on knowledge of complex issues to other humans. I have a hard time with that and don’t believe your theory is sound. Now if you say Takeda could teach others after that moment when he developed aiki then aiki becomes a concept that can be learned and passed on. That is the students that learned aiki could teach it to others. But you clearly stated you did not believe this to be the case. Please explain. Sure the times have changed since Takeda was around and the method of using it may have changed some but core of the aiki concept is still there, even if it is used in a different manner than before. If Takeda was alive today I would imagine he would be the first to make changes to meet today’s needs.

Now you also stated that only a warrior could understand aiki. Why is that? What is it about aiki that leads you to believe that? Do you believe everything that a warrior does is impossible for others to learn? I’ve been a warrior in today’s society and I believe I can teach civilians many of the skills and knowledge that I learned while in the military. Sure they wouldn’t understand the exact context or environment that I was trained to use that knowledge and skills in, however, they would still have that knowledge and skills and could apply them to their lives as they saw fit. Secondly, many of the skills and knowledge of a warrior are directly related to skills and knowledge in civilian life. While the many of the skills of a warrior in feudal Japan are different than today’s warriors, I don’t believe they learned things that others could not possibly learn. If you can please expand on your theory about this point, it seems a little weak with what you have written so far.

Thank you for you input and I look forward to reading your response.

mark

Walker
16th August 2000, 17:29
I would submit that a warrior is not the person who one would necessarily look to for an understanding of aiki. Perhaps a scholar warrior or even a dilettante with extra time to devote to the subject. Aiki seems to be a bit of a complex subject requiring a firm grounding in the physical aspects of kenjutsu and or jujutsu before it can be realized. Contrast that with the life of a typical warrior who is probably much more concerned with getting food for the day, cleaning camp, marching, and general drudgery. All wars need their cannon fodder (or spear fodder) and the majority of warriors are just that. It is only the elite with time on their hands who can waste time with aiki. Interestingly these leisured gentlemen might well have left the field of strife altogether and devoted their lives to a higher purpose as a monk, ascetic wanderer, or lounger about the court (lets not forget that aiki in jujustu has a strong connection with the system of manners surrounding the nobility). So drop the warrior only bull.

Henry Cawilan
16th August 2000, 18:44
I find that there are a lot of intellectual and scholarly people who post on this board, but sometimes over intellectualizing something leads to nowhere and the whole affair becomes some sort of support group for people who will never get what it is (aiki for example).

Yes, you have to be a warrior, but not only a warrior, a professional warrior/fighter. That is probably the top one percent of us who practice the martial arts. I'm sure everybody in here wants to get it (aiki), but the fact is Don Angier is probably THE one percent of us all.

Why wouldn't it be impossible for Takeda to teach aiki to someone else. I'm not saying that humans can't pass on complex knowledge to other humans, but you have to keep in mind that for this to happen first you must have a teacher with the skills and method to pass on the knowledge and then you must have a student who can receive this knowledge because he is one of the one percentile who will actually get it. That is the teacher must be the chosen one and the student must be the chosen one. Kenji Yoshida was lucky to have a Don Angier...is Don Angier lucky to have a Richard Elias...maybe. I don't believe Sokaku Takeda had a student who was the chosen one...maybe Ueshiba...maybe Shiro Saigo.

If you believe that you are in the one percent league, then go ahead and spread you aiki wisdom. If not then don't say anything because it just becomes a pile of misinformation that leads to further misinformation.

Nathan Scott
16th August 2000, 20:58
Mr. Cawilan,


I find that there are a lot of intellectual and scholarly people who post on this board, but sometimes over intellectualizing something leads to nowhere and the whole affair becomes some sort of support group for people who will never get what it is (aiki for example).

While this is a valid concern, I for one do not see this happening here. What I see are attempts to pool experience and information from as wide a source as possible (www) so that we might have a clearer idea where to focus our attention during keiko.

So far, we have received several quotes from well known "aiki exponents" such as Okamoto Sensei, Kondo Sensei and Angier Soke through our contributors here that come from first hand experience. These are quotes that I for one had not previously heard, and help me understand - if nothing else, the difference in definition by different groups, which I find to be of some value to me personally.


Yes, you have to be a warrior, but not only a warrior, a professional warrior/fighter. That is probably the top one percent of us who practice the martial arts.

A warrior by definition is someone who is engaged in or has experience in war, so that narrows down the populace considerably. The term warrior is often used inaccurately.


I'm sure everybody in here wants to get it (aiki), but the fact is Don Angier is probably THE one percent of us all.

I don't know what cross section of the world's population your referring to when you say "us all", but even if you just meant those of us chatting/lurking on this forum I would again disagree personally.

Aiki seems to be learnable as long as the student is willing to put forth substantial determinated effort in training to do so, over many years and under proper guidance. Since most groups that teach "aiki" techniques tend to consider the potential for such techniques as extremely effective, some of them seem to pace the instruction of principles, or the dropping of hints, over a period of many years to ensure that the student has sufficient loyalty and integrity. I could be wrong on this point, however, since this is just a limited observation.

Are you suggesting that we should all give up researching and training in aiki arts since by your calculations none of us will ever get it? When not in the dojo, it is of no benefit to discuss such experiences (within reason)?

That seems like a pretty negative approach to life, IMHO, but if that is your opinion your welcome to it.

I do appreciate your somewhat better tempered post, though! :)

Regards,

Kendoguy9
16th August 2000, 21:43
Henry et al,

>>Yes, you have to be a warrior, but not only a warrior, a professional warrior/fighter. That is probably the top one percent of us who practice the martial arts. I'm sure everybody in here wants to get it (aiki), but the fact is Don Angier is probably THE one percent of us all.
>>

It's funny you mention that one has to be a professional warrior to get it. Sokaku Takeda was not a professional warrior, as by the time he was of age, the samurai caste was gone. Never, did he fight in any wars, because the last samurai war was the Satsuma rebellion, which he never made. He was attacked a few times by thugs and the like, but that has happened to many of us here. He also had 30,000 students in Daito-ryu. If one percent got it, that would mean that 300 people got it, if each only taught 200 students (some more, some less) then that would mean that two from each sensei got it, that means in 2 generations it went from one person who got it, to 600!!! by your own math aiki is very easy to learn :).

>>I don't believe Sokaku Takeda had a student who was the chosen one...maybe Ueshiba...maybe Shiro Saigo.
>>

You're right he had 300 :). j/k. Honestly though, Takeda had many students who got it. His son Tokimune Takeda, Ueshiba, Takuma, Kodo, Sagawa, Okuyama (Hakko-ryu fellow), and these are some of the more prolific. I would also suggest you re-read your history, as Saigo has nothing to do with Daito-ryu, but rather Kodokan judo. And just for the record, what is your above assumption based on? Do you practice aiki arts? Have you practiced aiki arts in the past? If you haven't you should come to Baltimore, MD, this Nov. with Katsuyuki Kondo sensei, He will gladly show you aiki. Heck that's why he comes out here.

>>If you believe that you are in the one percent league, then go ahead and spread you aiki wisdom. If not then don't say anything because it just becomes a pile of misinformation that leads to further misinformation.
>>

Would it be safe to assume that you consider yourself in the one percent, to admonish those of us who are not in that one percent?


gambatte!!!

Tom Smith
16th August 2000, 22:07
I have been a lurker for here a while, and maybe it should stay that way.

I can no longer keep my opinions to myself. I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems if your not preaching to the choir then you're the antagonist. Many of the Aiki forum posters seem to be very thin skinned, who will rush to each others aid to punish those not fully convinced of their skills or knowledge . I stand firmly by this belief if a person can't take criticism like Henry's then there is something wrong.

I have to agree with Henry saying "No one in here knows what aiki is." I wish only to state this fact. Most of the guys here who make up the Aiki forum are or once students of Aiki or like instructors. Some students have their own dojos at this time and others only get instructional visits once or twice a year . The exception is the moderator who is greatly involved in the politics of Daito ryu. I would like to hear from the instructors.

I am not flaming anyone here, for the lack of a better example, I would like to hear from the instructors themselves and not the interns. It is my understanding in Japanese budo those without a menkyo or like title really don't say much about the technicalities of the art. They don't have complete knowledge. I agree with Henry's criticism in a manner of fact point of view it is speculation on Aiki(s).

I don't know what Aiki is. I do want to know and like anything else in life you have a interest in you want to hear it from the experts and not the interns. I know interns can be very helpful and informative, and I am thankful they have. I am sorry if I offend anyone, and I am appreciative of the factual information of those who post the historic and lineage stuff. I just don't see any reason why we should confuse the interns with the experts.

I hope you will kindly, excuse me and not take offense. I shall back to lurking now.

Kendoguy9
16th August 2000, 23:00
Hello Tom and all,

>>I am not flaming anyone here, for the lack of a better example, I would like to hear from the instructors themselves and not the interns. It is my understanding in Japanese budo those without a menkyo or like title really don't say much about the technicalities of the art. They don't have complete knowledge. I agree with Henry's criticism in a manner of fact point of view it is speculation on Aiki(s).
>>

If we waited until everyone here got menkyo, or if only menkyo level people could post here, then I think the message boards would be empty. I prefer to think of these message boards as a post workout chat session, where we all sit around, kick a brew, and compare and contrast ideas. What makes it worse is that everyone (masters) have a slightly, or greatly, different idea of what aiki is. Yeah we all sit here, and read what each other has to say, or what our teacher said, consider it, and then add our own two cents, but when we are done, we all probably say, "That's not right, MY sensei is the one who is right", even if we don't post that here :).

What makes us thin skinned or turn on someone is when they come into a board we use and tell us all, we have no idea what we are talking about and basically to shut up. In many cases that wouldn't be all that bad, but what makes us unhappy is when said person doesn't practice our art. On Henry's profile he says he does jujutsu, thats not aiki. To us it is like a karate sensei telling the guy in the park doing tai chi he's not doing it right, so he should stop now. I have no problem with the whole shut up and train mentaility, but if someone doesn't like reading lots of posts about aiki, and students opinions, and experiences of aiki, then maybe they should find another forum that suits their tastes better.

I better shut up before I'm cyber-slapped by Nathan-san :).

gambatte!!!

Nathan Scott
16th August 2000, 23:02
Hello Mr. Smith

Glad to see you de-cloak and post.

Personally, I welcome (and have welcomed) both Mr Cawilan and yourself, and anyone with constructive input of some kind to post on this forum.

My only reservation was the tone and choice or wording Mr. Cawilan chose in his first two posts, which he seems to have made an effort to improve.

I would hope that those that read this forum would look at these writings strictly for what they are. This is not a help forum where "experts" here give advice to others, it is an open discussion forum. Hell, if we knew it all there wouldn't be much interest in talking about it!

Also, I'm sure we'd all be the first to encourage those with more experience (experts, or those that are Menkyo level) in the aiki arts to contribute. If you happen to know some that are willing to come here and post, PLEASE invite them. We'll all shut up and listen. The aiki world is generally very conservative, and higher ranked instructors are often hard to access on any kind of public basis.

I do agree about your observation about speaking with authority about "aiki", though, IMHO. There have been many cases where I've heard the phrases "aiki is this", or "X-ryu aiki is this way" from posters that I don't believe have a menkyo (or equivelant of graduate level certification) in their (aiki) art. I would speculate that even within Daito ryu there are slightly differing definitions of aiki between the different branches.

In some cases, these posters may be authorized or comfortable speaking on behalf of their instructor, or speaking from quotes that were made by them. But regardless, it might be prudent for us posting to consider the authority with which we make statements, and when appropriate, offer supporting references to back up such statements so the readers know where we're coming from.

I take such authoritative statements with a grain of salt, personally.


The exception is the moderator who is greatly involved in the politics of Daito ryu.

Yeah, I'm still not sure how that happened. :)

While it has been extremely educational (and hopefully beneficial on some level), I'm looking forward to a door out once the facts have been presented!

Thanks for your viewpoint Mr. Smith. If you or anyone has some constuctive suggestions for how to improve the content of this list, please feel free to post them. Aside from history, it is difficult to discuss Aikijujutsu without getting into the subject of aiki, though.

If all of us who are not Menkyo level stop yacking, it's going to get really quiet around here waiting for experts to sign on! (read: no posters, no readers, no forum)

Regards,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 08-16-2000 at 05:13 PM]

Henry Cawilan
16th August 2000, 23:25
Chris,

Pay attention. I said one percent of us who study martial arts not one percent of students by some teacher. Meaning out of all of the students who study martial arts only one percent will ever get what aiki is. One percent is hypothetical because I believe that the chances are actually much less than that. Sure Takeda wasn't in any battle, but would you agree that he was raised and trained with that in mind? He was brought up and trained to be a professional warrior it doesn't matter if he never went to war.

No, it would foolish to assume that I'm part of the one percentile. I'm just a student like you and struggle to train everyday knowing that all that I practice maybe in vain. I don't practice aiki at least that's not what I'd call it. Let's just say I practice jiu jitsu for the lack of a better term. I don't run around in hakama and gi playing samurai.

Nathan,

Sorry to break it to you pal, but you probably would not get it. No offense, but I don't believe you are in the right circumstances to get it. Please don't take this personally most people are in your shoes including me. You may be talented, but I truly believe it takes the right combination of teacher, natural aptitude(talent), and opportunity. As far as I can tell the only group of people that are close are the Yanagi Ryu guys. They have the teacher and the opportunity. Time will tell if they have the natural aptitude(talent) for it. Personally I hope one of them gets it.

Richard Elias
17th August 2000, 00:00
Henry,

........

Never mind, its just not worth it.

[Edited by Richard Elias on 08-16-2000 at 06:17 PM]

Nathan Scott
17th August 2000, 00:03
Mr. Cawilan wrote:


Sorry to break it to you pal, but you probably would not get it. No offense, but I don't believe you are in the right circumstances to get it.

Wow, thanks for letting me know. I'll bring my Renshi license back to Obata Sensei and let him know too. I hope he won't be too upset that he wasted so much time trying to teach me.

Well, at least I found out before it's too late. I can spend more time on Shinkendo and my other arts now.

You seem to know an awful lot about me(!) Do you see anything in my future I should know about swordsmanship by any chance?


Please don't take this personally most people are in your shoes including me. You may be talented, but I truly believe it takes the right combination of teacher, natural aptitude(talent), and opportunity.

O.K.

You've given me the benefit of the doubt on talent (for better or for worse), so I guess that means that my instructors are not qualified, or I don't have enough opportunity to train (I guess). Well, you may have a point on opportunity, as work and other things have been really busy lately. I've had to cut back to 6 days a week of training so that I can work overtime on Sunday's for the time being. Yeah, I know I'm a slacker, but this whole work thing is really getting in the way.

BTW, I noticed your here in Los Angeles. One of my instructors, Obata Sensei, is also here in the Los Angeles area. Your welcome to come by and let him know that he is incompetant as well, if that is in fact your opinion. He might like to know too, though it might be too late for him to change arts.


As far as I can tell the only group of people that are close are the Yanagi Ryu guys. They have the teacher and the opportunity. Time will tell if they have the natural aptitude (talent) for it.

Thank god someone has a chance. Sorry Brently!


Personally I hope one of them gets it.

Personally, I hope all of them get it. They're a nice group of lads.

Thanks for the great post.

(Sammy, if this is really you using an alias, I"m going to hang you from your handcuffs from the dojo rafters)

Regards,


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 08-16-2000 at 06:09 PM]

MarkF
17th August 2000, 08:52
Originally posted by Henry Cawilan

Pardon my ignorance.



'nuff said.

Possibly a little education from an academic is called for here. An educated guess or a hypothetical past is what Henry wants. After all, what he says isn't close to either, as this is what is the framework of all history, including the history of aiki. But I forget myself sometimes. We are all receiving an education here. What Henry is teaching is not even close.:kiss:

Mark

17th August 2000, 17:38
Henry & Tom ?????

What do you guys do exactly and who trains you?

Everyone else here is quite forthcoming about who we are, what we study, who we study with, and how long we have been training. Insinuating that the various instructors / high level students here are unqualified to comment on the art we study or hold teaching licenses in demonstrates arrogance of the highest level. Do you realize this?

What experience do you possess? What are your qualifications to comment on the talent level or teaching ability of someone like Nathan Scott?. Do you have a teaching license from any well respected Sensei. Do you have any students you have trained and can present to us as examples of your teaching experitse. You see, for your comments to be taken with any veracity, others should be able to judge your qualifications to criticise.

Being an internet critic is easy but being a devoted student or sensei is hard. Spouting opinions on the faceless internet without the threat of being handed your head makes this sort of commentary frankly.....irrelevent.

BTW Rich, amazing restraint. I might just buy you a drink in Grand Cayman next week!

Sorry for the rant guys, but I missed breakfast :)


Toby Threadgill,Soryushin Dojo
Joden Menkyo / Okuden Mokuroku
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

.... just another intern


[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 08-17-2000 at 12:06 PM]

Tom Smith
17th August 2000, 17:41
To all,

I am sorry. My first post was a bit less refined based on the responses. Truly, a sign I should just keep to lurking and not post.

I am not sure of Henry's purpose for his posts, but I made a rookie move by mentioning I agree with him. I realize that many people attack this group and also make statements about aiki who lack knowledge. I stated that this group is thin skinned. What I should of said is the group is not tolerant of flaming.

My view about interns and experts was unfair. I admit it sounded unjust. I would like to correct my error. What I meant was if we are going to know what aiki is and if it different for every art or person then we also have to hear form the experts. From the interns we get development or in process information at various levels and this is good. From the experts such as a Menkyo we get completed course and experience information. It would be nice to hear from a Menkyo. This is all I was trying to say.

I also remarked on the moderator of this group saying he was involved to a great extent the politics of Daito Ryu. I said this because he doesn't indicate he studies Daito Ryu like he does his other arts. In my awkwardness, I was just pointing out the moderator was involved in Daito Ryu.

In Budo,

Thomas Smith


[Edited by Tom Smith on 08-17-2000 at 11:47 AM]

Walker
17th August 2000, 18:21
So this is what it comes to?
Now I know why there were so many cooks and woodcutters running around in the history of Zen with the Dharma - they were too stupid to know that it was next to impossible to “get it.”
I don’t believe that Aiki is some mystical power attained only when the worm of enlightenment crawls up my butt. Why would I practice otherwise? I also believe that thinking of aiki, chi, ki, or whatever is some mystical transmission is a great stumbling block on the way.
I derive pleasure from reading about various aspects of martial culture on bulletin boards, but I don’t confuse a discussion with practice - does anyone and what does that say about them.
As for levels of experience I think most of us have had the experience of slogging along frustrated thinking you are never going to get it when a junior comes up and says something about how great your technique looks. Well, you say, what do they know, I’m blowing cheese. Do you think it is any different if you have a menkyo? And if it is, is that just ego? Or do you wake up one morning and feel the white corpuscles of omoto kami warrior power swimming through your brain and walk about talking to tengu?
I for one appreciate all of the time and effort represented by the posts on this board and don’t want to see people’s kind thoughtful submissions trampled.

[Edited by Walker on 08-17-2000 at 12:31 PM]

Walker
17th August 2000, 19:40
Sorry Popie, I just saw the raw quote not your full posting. Must be those corpuscles talking... :)

[Edited by Walker on 08-17-2000 at 01:52 PM]

Nathan Scott
17th August 2000, 19:44
Hello Mr. Smith,


I am sorry. My first post was a bit less refined based on the responses. Truly, a sign I should just keep to lurking and not post.

I'd prefer to see you continue to post as the fancy strikes you. I've found that you can say just about anything to someone without offending them if it is presented respectfully enough!


I stated that this group is thin skinned. What I should of said is the group is not tolerant of flaming.

That is a fact. You might take a glance at the thread here named "yoroshiku". Aiki arts are controversial, and it is a somewhat unique art in that you really need to experience it to understand. It really cannot be judged properly from observing. That is where the conversation often gets difficult.

Members have have most often become offended/upset when others who do not study aiki arts themselves strongly challange their opinions, or even what the principles of their art are! This is somewhat a foolish position to take.

Frankly, I personally don't want to be associated with lists or organizations (intentionally) that are frowned upon because of unprofessional, immature or just rude behavior. It is an embarrassment to me and my instructors. Flames and inflammatory posts are avoidable, and represent nothing more than BS. It will not be tollerated. Personally, I don't think it should be tollerated on any mature forum, but that's just my opinion. :)


I also remarked on the moderator of this group saying he was involved to a great extent the politics of Daito Ryu. I said this because he doesn't indicate he studies Daito Ryu like he does his other arts. In my awkwardness, I was just pointing out the moderator was involved in Daito Ryu.

Like I said, I got more involved that I had originally intended to! But as long as the process is productive, I will try to see this topic through to some kind of a "conclusion".

I've chosen to represent myself publicly in accordance with those arts that I have the most direct experience, rank and credentials in. I am not comfortable with, nor would I want to have any of my opinions or statements directly or indirectly associated with groups of which I did not hold such experience, rank or credentials. This seems like a logical position to me.

Several Jujutsu/Taijutsu groups use the term aiki to describe their art or aspects thereof, some with differing definitions. Most of my experience in this regard has been under the Aikido Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai, or which I am comfortable of speaking about publicly. In any event, Daito ryu is a very comprehensive style as a whole, and serves as the foundation for Aikido, my Aiki Buken style (a short name we use for the kenkyukai I mentioned above), and has been influential to several other styles including Yanagi ryu.

As a result, it would seem to that there would be alot of people interested in the preservation and well being of Daito ryu.

As far as the Abashiri Seishin group goes, they were the ones that pronounce themselves the Honbu dojo for Daito ryu on the world wide web. They know as well as anyone that this stance would be controversial, and have chosen to maintain it. They are welcome to do so as long as they are legally permitted, but that does not mean that they will not be questioned for regarding their claim, to put it mildly.

Regards,

Neil Yamamoto
17th August 2000, 19:54
Well, after almost 30 years training in vain, I have seen the futility of my training.

Who would have thought that a post on the e-budo forum from some one who profess no knowledge of what they are critizing would have this effect on me?

Like a little cupid of wrongful budo training, Henry Cawilan appears and shoots me in heart with his barbed arrow post to awaken me to what I am missing and will never get through my training in aiki arts.

I am immediately quiting my martial arts training. I am sure that all the people who know me agree that this is for the best since I will not darken any more aiki seminars with my useless presence.

Anybody wanna buy some used budo gear?

Nathan Scott
17th August 2000, 20:08
Right.

Anyway, does anyone wish to pick up on the original subject at hand here? Something about the differences in usage of the term aiki, and how it differs or is similar to how it curently is or may have been used in some kenjutsu styles, I think.

We can also just close this thread, since it is long and has deteriorated from it's original subject substantially.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
17th August 2000, 20:28
Mr. Popie,

You've said your peace, and expressed your opinions about the Abashiri group. Fair enough.

I'm going to close this thread before it degrades further. If anyone would like to continue the discussion of aiki or the ligitimacy claims of the abashiri group, please feel free to open a new thread.

Regards,