Are swords still used?

[leoboiko]

I heard somewhere that with modern metallurgy techniques it is possible to make swords much sharper than ancient ones.

My question is, would anyone be interested in them? Is there modern military or police groups still using swords?

Just wondering....

[Charles Mahan]

There are unfortunately still plenty of machete being used in ethnic conflicts all over the world. A sad thing. There are also plenty of militaries still using them as dress pieces. The Marines come to mind.

[Soulend]

All U.S. branches of the military have dress swords, although the U.S.M.C. is the only one that allows non-commissioned officers to carry one. These are all, of course, only for ceremonial use.

I read on bugei's forum that some Canadian special forces outfit uses a type of sword similar to a katana (but it's all black and utilizes modern materials and construction methods). Supposedly this thing is actually supposed to be used in combat, not a type of dress sword. I have been unable to find out anything about this though, so it may just be BS.

As to who would be interested in sharper swords utilizing modern metallurgy, I imagine many who practice tameshigiri would. Swords utilizing L6 Bainite and Swedish powdered steel, such as some of those Bugei sells, seem pretty popular with sword enthusiasts of all sorts.

[INFINOO]

No B.S. Wally Hayes is the knife maker who is making short swords out of 01 tool steel for the Canadain Military. I had had lunch with a member of special units at last years blade in Atlanta's. Nice guy even though the bastard did manage to sneak up on me in the subway line.:eek:. I personally think a large fighting Bowie is a better weapon for CQB because of the sharpened back swag, horn gaurd, plus the added mobility of a 18 knife compared to a 24 inch shoto. On the other hand why not carry both? If you want to contact Wally check out the Canadain knife makers guild.

Regards,

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

[Soulend]

Thanks for the info, Mr. Rogaski. Is this shoto-styled sword also usable for more utilitarian purposes, as one would use a machete? One does have a bit of a gear/weight ratio to consider in the field, and if a tool, especially a pretty large one, isn't multi-purpose then I think I'd probably leave it in favor of carrying more ammo or an extra poncho. Personally I'm a kukri fan, wish we would adopt it :)

[leoboiko]

Thank you all for the interesting information.

I'm curious about the sword techniques of the Canadian. Are they Japanese based, or entirely original?

[James Williams]

Leonardo,

Swords are not sharper, at least not Japanese style swords. While knives are a viable secondary weapon in close quarters in modern warfare, swords would be difficult to carry and use effectively.

Regards,

James

[shinchaku]

With 6 years as an rifleman in the Canadian Forces I have never heard of swords being used as a primary CQB weapon. They could be adopted by some units, but as far as I know that are not considered a standardised weapon in the forces.

I've been out for a bit though so some things could have changed.

[INFINOO]

James Williams: IF a short sword was carryed in a tradional manner tucked in the obi then, then I agree that it would be tough to carry, but what if a short sword was strapped to the back diagnally in a kydex rig with the handle beside and behind the head dare I say without offending you "ninja style"? To take it one step further, one could carry two swords to balence the rig out? After all I/we/they got two hands. One hand might be busy and the other might be free . Granted It would make rolling diffucult if not dangerous but "may" have a place when working in water, buliding clearing, caves or urban CQB? Furthermore, a sword would be usefull when engaged in so called "peace keeping missions" when facing bad guys jumping up on tanks and slashing at a soldier with a machete when the soldier is trapped in the turrert. I mention this examples because I know this has been a problem for some of "are guys" in third world countrys where machetes are common.

Regards,
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives Internationl
Calgary Alberta Canada

[Charlie Kondek]

I also know that there are many areas where civil conflicts based on race or religion are settled with swords or other hand weapons. I'm thinking specifically of Malaysia and parts of the Middle East, Africa. I read often of Christian villages or enclaves being attacked by Muslim contigents in this fashion. I think often the weapon is a machete but I also got my hands on a cheap steel sword from Pakistan called "a katana." I use it for cutting down tall grass and stuff in my garden.

[Kolschey]

Mr. Rogalsky,

Are there any pictures presently available of these blades?
Does Mr. Wally Hayes have a web site profiling his work?
I would love to learn more about this.

[INFINOO]

Kolschey: If you go to www.bladeart.com you can see some of Wally's work. Mr Hayes is a master smith so I don't think you will be disappointed. The last time I checked there was a sword there, although Im not sure if it is the one in question. I also heard some buzz about a "How to forge a Katana" tape. Although, I havnt seen it yet. He also has a collaboration coming with American Tomahawk Company. The hawk looks pretty sweet. Get one a bowies in the other hand and like I say
"Now your talking". If you want a contact number check out the Canadain Knife Makers Guild. I could post his phone number but would rather not on the net without his permission. But its easy to find if you go to the (C.K.G)
Any way, the shoto I saw had a braided rope gaurd. This kept the side profile quite flat. Without the gaurd the sword kind of looked like a Aikuchi but longer and fatter.
Im going to phone Wally tonight and ask him if he wants to join this discussion.
By the way I just checked blade art out . Go to the sword section and look for Tsunami, thats the one.

Regards,

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

[Kolschey]

Great! Thank you, Mr. Rogalsky.
I shall definitely check out that link.

[Soulend]

To take it one step further, one could carry two swords to balence the rig out? After all I/we/they got two hands. One hand might be busy and the other might be free .

Two swords? As if we didn't have enough crap to carry as it is. I foresee men using them as tent stakes. Unless it can take the place of the machete, no infantryman is going to tote around one of these things, let alone two. The underbrush on the island of Saipan is littered to this day with rusting old Johnson submachine guns as a testament to the fact that in combat, that which has little use will be discarded. And Specops guys tend to travel as light as possible. They're not going to carry extra gear that has a very slim chance of ever being used, but rather having the singular purpose of weighing one down, making noise, and snagging on every branch and vine one crawls under.


Granted It would make rolling diffucult if not dangerous but "may" have a place when working in water, buliding clearing, caves or urban CQB? Furthermore, a sword would be usefull when engaged in so called "peace keeping missions" when facing bad guys jumping up on tanks and slashing at a soldier with a machete when the soldier is trapped in the turrert.

This reminds me of a dicussion concerning issuing a pistol and magazine to each soldier as part of their load-out. As it is, only SNCO's, officers, and some selected MOS's (like the radioman) have a pistol. I believe it was Jeff Cooper that said that this idea makes sense from the viewpoint of the individual grunt (feel better armed), but not from the standpoint of the govt. (would hardly be ever used, too expensive). I can only imagine the howls of derision that would eminate from the mouths of tankcrewmen in the process of trying to move around the cramped confines of a tank with a freaking sword strapped to their backs, the tsuka merrily getting hung up on every wire, line, and protrusion inside. Nearly every conceivable modern combat situation I can think of would be far better served with a pistol then a sword. Smaller package, more range, easier to use, less training time required. With a primary arm, a pistol, and a good knife, you're all set. The sengoku jidai is over.

P.S. - Just looked at the tsunami. That's a beautiful piece, and appears shorter and more compact than expected. All Mr. Jay's work looks gorgeous.

[Charles Mahan]

"The winner of a bayonet fight, is the last man with a bullet in his gun." - Rommel

Not sure I got the wording exactly right, but its translated from German anyway. As I understand it, Rommel learned that lesson the hardway during the first world war, when he attempted to attack an enemy soldier with a bayonet and got shot in the leg for his trouble.

We aren't talking about bayonets, but I suspect the comparsion holds.

[Soulend]

Sorry, meant to say Hayes, not 'Jay' in my last post.:o

[INFINOO]

David: Why are you twisting my words? I said "on top" of the turret, not inside. If the guy on top was going inside the tank, they(he,she) "could" take the sword off. With modern harneses availible this would be a snap;). As far as the handle snagging on bushes, wires I agree. However what about all the other gear on them now. Do you think that ever snags?
Im not sure why but every discussion about knives/swords in close combat turns into a knife vs gun dicussion. Good grief.
When learning sword work, my teacher brushed the "Sword and Pen in accord" for me. Not "the pen is mighter than the sword" as I so often hear. Over the years I have taken it to mean that the warrior in times past, just as now, must have balence in his life. Not all or nothing. Balence between war and peace, theory and experience,talk and action, the sword that takes life and the sword that saves it. If you look at the Ying/yang or In/yo if you will, and ask people to give you a mathimatical formual between white and black, most will say its 50/50. But balence in motion dosnt imply 50/50 which implys static. My take on the ying/yang is that its 49/51 or 51/49, not 50/50 which is static but instead infinitly changing between the two states, which implys movement. And for me, movement is life and stillness is death. There is room for both in "my" universe. In the circle of life there must be balence, but balence in motion. Hmm. I like this new side thats is coming out of me on E-budo:cool:. Pretty soon you guys will be calling me "Rogalsky the Warrior Poet":D.
So after telling you that, here is "my" modern take on the old saying, and expreses my thoughts on this subject perfectly.
"The Gun and the Sword in accord".

Regards,

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

[Soulend]

Originally posted by INFINOO
David: Why are you twisting my words? I said "on top" of the turret, not inside. If the guy on top was going inside the tank, they(he,she) "could" take the sword off. With modern harneses availible this would be a snap;).

I'm not twisting your words, I'm trying to make sense of them. I don't know what type of tanks you're familiar with, but I don't know who in their right mind is going to sit on top of the turret in a hostile environment. Let me use as an example one of the biggest tanks out there today, and the one I'm most familiar with - the M1A1/2 MBT. It's crew consists of four: a commander, a driver, a gunner and a loader. The commander and/or gunner will normally be the only ones to expose themselves (head and torso only) outside the skin of the tank, utilizing the cupola. They will only do this in certain circumstances: while traveling in column, engaging soft targets and infantry in an open area at a distance, and for assessing a battlefield from a distance. Never with hostiles at machete range or in the course of battle. In addition to a pistol, the commander has a 12.7 mm M2 machine gun, and the loader has a 7.62 mm M240 machine gun. A 7.62 mm M240 machine gun is also mounted coaxially on the starboard side of the tank.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/abrams7.html

Perhaps SOP for armor is a bit different in Canada.



As far as the handle snagging on bushes, wires I agree. However what about all the other gear on them now. Do you think that ever snags?

I don't have to think about if gear does or does not snag, I have spent enough time in the field to know it does. However, this can be minimized by securing your gear correctly. Generally any item that protrudes is going to catch on things, which is why someone who knows what they are doing doesn't tie on their gear like that.

http://www.natick.army.mil/warrior/01/sepoct/molleoverallpart3.jpg

You seem to be advocating slinging a sword (or swords!) to your back like some sort of ninja turtle with the tsuka sticking up past your shoulder - otherwise the turtle in question would not be able to draw it. Which incidentally also exposes his torso to attack, but that's a different story.


Im not sure why but every discussion about knives/swords in close combat turns into a knife vs gun dicussion. Good grief.

This isn't knife vs. gun, it's sword vs. gun. I'm all for having a good knife at all times. But as to the 'sword vs gun', this is probably because of the same reasons I stated earlier. A man in the field is limited in what gear he can take by constraints of both space and weight. Sure, I have all sorts of savage toys I would like to take, but you can't take 'em all. You have to choose those items which are the most essential, most useful, and pack the most 'bang for the buck'. A knife is essential, a sword is not. One has to take the limited space that one has and use it to accomodate the most useful gear. Special Ops teams even more so, as they don't normally carry as much crap as your standard infantryman. I assume that you have military experience, Gregory, as you run some sort of a combatives organization, so you should be familiar with the what-to-take dilemma. A pistol, extra ammunition, NVG's, or any one of a number of other pieces of gear will simply come in handier than a sword on the modern battlefield. I'd personally rather pack an extra roll of toilet paper...it's like gold in the field :)


When learning sword work, my teacher brushed the "Sword and Pen in accord" for me. Not "the pen is mighter than the sword" as I so often hear. Over the years I have taken it to mean that the warrior in times past, just as now, must have balence in his life. Not all or nothing. Balence between war and peace, theory and experience,talk and action, the sword that takes life and the sword that saves it. If you look at the Ying/yang or In/yo if you will, and ask people to give you a mathimatical formual between white and black, most will say its 50/50. But balence in motion dosnt imply 50/50 which implys static. My take on the ying/yang is that its 49/51 or 51/49, not 50/50 which is static but instead infinitly changing between the two states, which implys movement. And for me, movement is life and stillness is death. There is room for both in "my" universe. In the circle of life there must be balence, but balence in motion. Hmm. I like this new side thats is coming out of me on E-budo:cool:. Pretty soon you guys will be calling me "Rogalsky the Warrior Poet":D.
So after telling you that, here is "my" modern take on the old saying, and expreses my thoughts on this subject perfectly.
"The Gun and the Sword in accord".

This is all fine and dandy when contemplating the finer points of warrior ethos circa Sekigahara, or in the cozy confines of the dojo. Very poetic. However it has little bearing on the discussion at hand. Saying "The Gun and Sword in Accord" to a modern infantryman would be precisely the same as saying "The Jawbone of an Ass and Sword in accord" to a Tokugawa era samurai. Both of these warriors would giggle at you. I love the sword too. I think of it as the premier weapon of history...a real 'man's weapon'(no offense intended to our lady kenjutsuka and iaidoka). However, it is an anachronism when facing gunfire. Even Oda Nobunaga understood that. Comparing a gun to a sword in not like comparing yin to yang or In to Yo. It in comparing Yin to Yin or In to In. They are not opposites to use in harmony together. The rifle does not rival the sword in modern warfare as an 'opposite'. It has superceded it.

It would be better to say 'MP5 and BiC' in accord. :)

[shinchaku]

My grandfather was an unarmed combat instructor in England during WW11, one thing that he has passed on throughout the years is the number one rule of UAC is to never be caught unarmed! This corresponds well with Rommels idea, in a battle of guns, always have one! Or like Jack Nicholsons' character in a Few Good Men. " Wlk softly and carry an armoured tank division"

[Soulend]

Originally posted by INFINOO
Furthermore, a sword would be usefull when engaged in so called "peace keeping missions" when facing bad guys jumping up on tanks and slashing at a soldier with a machete when the soldier is trapped in the turrert. I mention this examples because I know this has been a problem for some of "are guys" in third world countrys where machetes are common.


(emphasis mine)


Originally posted by INFINOO
David: Why are you twisting my words? I said "on top" of the turret, not inside.

How have I "twisted your words"? "Trapped IN the turrert(sic)" is precisely what you said. The only guy "on" the tank in your scenario is the bad guy with a machete. Or is your argument that we should take away the bad guys' machetes and give them swords? :confused:

Perhaps 'Weed and Booze in Accord' is the motto here...

[INFINOO]

Well I talked to Wally Hayes today and made him aware of the thread. Im not sure if he will post or not. He did tell me that there are solider's in the feild who "are" carrying swords. He asked me not to mention which soldiers and where they are deployed ,as its classified, so I will respect his wishes. He did tell me that they(the soldiers) strap them to there ruck sack. Which means they draw the short sword over the shoulder just like the ninja turtles, go figure. I ass-u-med they where carrying them in a shoulder harnes because in the photo I saw they where in the water up to there neck.
David: I think the thread was about "do soldiers use swords in the feild" wasnt it? I had some information that I thought might prove usefull. Im sorry you dont like the information but I have it on "very" reliable sources that soldiers "are" using swords in the feild. If you have a problem with that take it up with them. I guess its true no good deed goes unpunished.
More later Im going to bed.

Regards,
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

[Soulend]

Originally posted by INFINOO
David: I think the thread was about "do soldiers use swords in the feild" wasnt it? I had some information that I thought might prove usefull. Im sorry you dont like the information but I have it on "very" reliable sources that soldiers "are" using swords in the feild. If you have a problem with that take it up with them. I guess its true no good deed goes unpunished.
More later Im going to bed.


Yes, that is what the thread is about. However, it would be a pretty short thread if only a yes or no answer was required. The Afghans still use the kindjal and khyber, and these may classify as short swords as well. As to Mr. Hayes' swords, I am guessing that either individual soldiers bought these swords for their own use or it's a unit thing. These swords look like they would be shockingly expensive and handmade, so I can't see them being issued in great numbers on a govt. contract. One sees soldiers and Marines bring all sorts of things out in the field. In desert storm I knew guys who brought their own 'Rambo' knives, Desert Eagles, and one who brought a nickle plated Colt SAA reproduction. In nearly any knife catalog one will see all sorts of knives that are touted as 'used by Navy SEALs', and they may well be, but they are hardly standard issue.

It isn't a question of me 'liking' information, and if you would be so kind as to look back at the first page of this thread, you will see I thanked you for the information. I don't have a problem with anything, Gregory, just trying to figure out the wisdom of it. I'm not sure what you mean about good deeds going unpunished- I thought we were having a discussion. If the good deed you refer to is your false accusation that I 'twisted your words', Greg, then I guess you're right. If 'punishment' is defined as offering questions and arguments borne of extensive time in the bush for which you can offer no logical retort then I suppose you're right too.

Since I am a Marine this type of information is very interesting to me, especially since I have yet to see anyone bring a sword into the field - and I've been out in the field with different units a number of times over the past 15 years. Hopefully Mr. Hayes will decide to come on here. I would love to know the exact dimensions of the piece, and whether the swords used are the exact same ones as in the picture, or some sort of variant. Also, as mentioned before, if they are used for more pedestrian type work like clearing underbrush, etc. I'm not sure how Canadians forces prepare their rucks, but it is common for us to strap a machete to the outside...so I wonder if they use this sword instead?

It really is a beautiful sword, would love to have one myself. And if it is sturdy enough to tackle a variety of tasks I could definately see the value of having one in the field. It's so pretty though, one may be afraid to use it! :)

[INFINOO]

David: The reason I never offered an so called explaination is I was trying not to be so confrontational and in your face with members of this forum, in these discusions. It was fun to stir the sh*t up at first but "now" I would rather just get along, if I could. Recent events in my life have made me reevaluate my attitude in life in general. So anyways.
As for your question about securing there Waki's on the outside of there Ruck, Wally told me thats just what they do. Yesterday, I tried it out with my personal Waki on the outside of my back packpack and it worked great, well kind of. By the way, if you can get the sword to "seat" between the head and the shoulder it comes out "really fast" right into a diaganal 45 cut, sweet. I taped the sword to some straps on the back of the bag, so that the edge orintates to the outside. Today Im going to grind out a new Waki "without a gaurd" as it is kind of uncomfortable againts the back(ouch). I think a kydex sheath will be better for this rig as it will lie flatter than a more tradional oval shape that my present Waki saya has. Getting the sword back into the saya proved "interesting", but it is possible. I dont know all the specs or how durable Wallys swords are but I do know he is forging 1095 and edge hardening it. My proto type Waki is going to be 30 inches overall with a 22 inch blade(Im tall). For my prototype Im using 5160 truck spring flat ground with no ridge line just like my bowie's. If the prototype works out I will waterjet some out of CPM3V. When Im done the proto type I'll post a picture. No hard feelings David.

Regards

Gregory Roglsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

[Soulend]

No hard feelings intended here either, Gregory. Discussions of military things tend to interest me very much, as that is my profession, so I tend to get very involved in them. If I appeared very confrontational I apologize. I try to be thorough in my position, but sometimes this comes off as being a bit strong. Guess that's one of the downfalls of being an ol' gunny...ya tend to come off as a bit overbearing. And when someone accuses me of something which is plainly not true I get a bit confused.

Anyways, this seems pretty interesting, and as I said, if tough enough for chopping, clearing brush, etc. seems like it may be a good piece of gear. I still doubt if it would be often used in actual combat (based on the fact that the machete, while carried, rarely is), but who knows. Anyway, looking forward to seeing that prototype. Sounds like it will be pretty neat.

[shinchaku]

The CF ruck is about the same dimensions as a basic ALICE pack. We would routinely fix a machete between the ruck and frame at about shoulder level. This lets it be carried relatively out of the way, and still accessable if needed. Mind you this is just machete's not swords, so I have no info on that.
Use of a machete for CQB is touched on, but nothing more than very basic hack and slash type stuff.

[Soulend]

This is similar to the way we do it. It is routinely strapped to the side of the A.L.I.C.E...don't know how the Army does it with their MOLLE's. Also, our training with CQB utilizing the machete is the same. Very brief, much like the 'using your E-tool (entrenching tool) as a weapon' training.

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
For those who don't understand the significance of load tailoring issues (and based on what I read elsewhere at E-budo, some don't), please read SLA Marshall, The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation (Quantico, VA: Marine Corps Association, 1950). Why? Because studies show that fear and fatigue have just about equal affect on men in combat, and extra weight contributes to fatigue.

For online reading, see also http://198.65.138.161/military/library/report/1992/EWL.htm and http://198.65.138.161/military/library/report/1985/IDC.htm . Ideally, a maximum load for a soldier, underwear, ammunition, water, and all, is 50-70 pounds (~45% of body weight) during training, and perhaps 40 pounds (~30% of body weight) in combat. Yet, "When Army Rangers jumped onto the runway at Salinas airfield [on Grenada], the average load carried by each man was 167 pounds." (1992)

As for moving with a "mere" 100 pounds on one's back, see 1985:

BEGIN QUOTE

I was the platoon commander for the first platoon of Company M and while it was difficult to shoulder that load and conduct a movement to contact on level ground, it was virtually impossible to do so while climbing the high, steep hills of South Korea. My marines were so fatigued from simply packing their equipment from position to position, that the enemy was not a major concern. Had this operation not been a peacetime exercise with controlled aggressors, I am certain we would have had serious problems fighting and defeating even a small enemy force.

Now there are those who would argue that this was merely an exercise and that had this been an actual live combat operation, we would have accomplished the logistics differently. These idealists say that certainly the infantrymen would not have been carrying as much equipment, or that vehicles would have been provided to transport some of the burden, thereby making the individual's load manageable. I strongly disagree. I contend that the perennial problem of ooverloading the footmobile marine or soldier will be even worse in combat. The old sports adage of "what you do in practice is what you do in the game," is very apropos.
END QUOTE

[Sidarta]

Originally posted by leoboiko
I heard somewhere that with modern metallurgy techniques it is possible to make swords much sharper than ancient ones.

My question is, would anyone be interested in them? Is there modern military or police groups still using swords?

Just wondering....

Hey Leonardo,

Right here in our country, at least here in Rio to be precise, the mounted division of the military police (PM) carry swords when they are on horses. I usually see them around Maracanã during football (soccer) matches. I have never seen the swords out of the scabbards but since they use it in a place with such a high potential for conflict, I imagine they are supposed to use it when necessary. I doubt they receive any proper training though.

cheers,

Sidarta de Lucca

[leoboiko]

Hello Sidarta,
I saw our police with swords, but I think they're decorative. Are you sure they use them? I don't remember any news about PMs slashing people around in soccer frenzy :)

[Sidarta]

Hey Leonardo,

No, I am not sure whether they use or not... I just thought the swords were supposed to be used (even if it is purely for psycologycal purposes) for the situation I saw the officers carrying them. I thought that in case they were not supposed to take it out of the scabbard the blades would be better left in the barracks. Otherwise I think most of those hooligans would not mind taking the swords and do whatever they felt they should.

By the way, I have just realized that in fact it is possible that the swords do not even have a blade... It could be a purely decorative piece made of a scabbard and a grip. I think I will ask an officer next time I go to the stadium. Does the PM wear swords often where you live?

I also do not remember any news about policemen slashing people on the streets. At the other hand I do remember that time, not long ago, when a famous journalist was torn into pieces with a "katana-like" sword here in Rio. That was creepy and sad.

cheers,

Sidarta de Lucca





Originally posted by leoboiko
Hello Sidarta,
I saw our police with swords, but I think they're decorative. Are you sure they use them? I don't remember any news about PMs slashing people around in soccer frenzy :)

[Daniel san]

Hello,
This may sound naive, but it comes from the experience of being stabbed in the foot with a sword that was being used as a machete.
It sucks to be stabbed. Nobody wants to be stabbed. If we are truly keeping the peace I think a quieter weapon says that better. I don't think everybody should carry them in combat. For the most part they make terrible utillity tools. But, for the solider who is guarding the water tank and is trying to make sure everyone gets a litttle, pointing and herding with an M16 looks very threatening.

Anyway, have a good day.

[ghp]

SLA Marshall, The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation (Quantico, VA: Marine Corps Association, 1950). Why? Because studies show that fear and fatigue have just about equal affect on men in combat, and extra weight contributes to fatigue. Read it many years ago -- very enlightening.

Either it was in SLA Marshal's book, or it came up in Infantry Officer's Advanced Course: when packing mules you must adhere to the mule's weight:load ratio. If the muleskinner overloaded his mule, he was subject to the commander's disciplinary action.

As I recall, the recommended load for an army pack mule was 25% of it's body weight. And, I believe the recommended human load is 33% total body weight -- more than the mule's recommended load! Many of our soldiers must carry over half their body weight in training and in combat. If we were mules, our commanders would receive punishment under Article-15 (Captain's Mast)!

I just did a bit of unscientific research and found a site selling a 14.5 hands high (58" at withers) mule weighing 900 lbs. The recommended pack weights for mules, gleaned from various sites, equals 200 lbs; the load represents 22% the mule's body weight.

A 72" high grunt weighing 180 lbs carrying a basic load plus prc-77 of 100 lbs (plus!), carries a minimum of 54% of his body weight ... and the basic load does not include steel pot, boots, load-bearing equipment, canteens, etc. Oh, yes -- add "bayonet, 1 each, for the use of." :D (this is for you, Joe!)

Joe -- you're a contentious type -- especially about (1) bayonets and (2) ossifers .... :D Why didn't you mention the mule weight analog? I'm sure you have that information somewhere close at hand! :laugh:

http://www.slocanlake.com/sandon/transportation/eureka.jpg
(right) The modern soldier and his load :D
...The load for the horse or mule varied, according to the animal, but the average was about 200 pounds (90.72 kg).... Of course, sometimes these animals were loaded beyond reasonable limits. One story was told of a 400 pound (181.44 kg) compressor cross-head being loaded on "the best and strongest pack mule in the camp" for a four-mile trip up steep trails from Sandon to the Ivanhoe mine. Four big men were sent along, to take some of the weight off the animal every time it stopped to rest. Finally, after hours of brutal struggle, the men and animal staggered into the compressor house yard, "but before the cross-head could be unloaded, the poor beast collapsed and died [http://www.slocanlake.com/sandon/transportation/transportation.html ]

If the above 400 lbs equates to half the mule's weight (200% capacity), we can understand why today's modern foot combatant figuratively "dies" under modern his load!

Recommended reading:
"The Infantryman's Combat Load" at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/IDC.htm

Cheers,
Guy

[Cady Goldfield]

Guy wrote:

"I just did a bit of unscientific research and found a site selling a 14.5 hands high (58" at withers) mule weighing 900 lbs."

In equine measurement, 1 hand = 4"
Each additional inch is represented on the right-hand side of the decimal point.

So, the size of the mule mentioned should have been 15.1 hands.

Just being an annoying stickler for detail. :D

Cady
(Whose old Morgan mare is 14.3 hands high at the withers)

[ghp]

Sorry Cady .... Mea Culpa. And thanks for the equine correction. Actually, the mule was advertised at 14.5 hands ... which is puzzling. I probably mistyped the ".5" part, cuz I doubt anybody involved in the equine (or "assinine") field would have made a mistake the equivalent of saying, "he is 5ft 13in tall."

Cheerfully submitted,

Guy
(who is 16.2 hands)

[Sidarta]

Leonardo, are you still around?

So, earlier today I have seen something that reminded me of this thread. Although I see the policemen on horses carrying swords quite often I still did not know wether they were supposed to use it (in case there actually was a sword instead of a decorative piece) or not.

Back to what I have seen, it was a series of pictures published in the November 2003 edition of "Fotografe Melhor" magazine (a publication about Photography). It was part of an article about being able to take pictures when something totaly unexpeted happens. The series in question shows a group of policemen on horses in front of Maracanã, Rio, after a Cruzeiro x Flamengo match. One of the horsemen turns away from the crowd as he draws his sword (yes, there is a sword there to be used!) and in the last two pictures he hits a man on the shoulder for no apparent reason. The final shot shows an ugly wound that goes from the man's shoulder to around ten inches down his back as blood starts to flow. The macabre thing is that apparently the wounded man remains unaware of his ugly situation instants after the blow.

If you have the chance look for this magazine. Maybe there is something in the press about this incident. I do not remember anything, though.

Cheers,

Sidarta



Originally posted by leoboiko
Hello Sidarta,
I saw our police with swords, but I think they're decorative. Are you sure they use them? I don't remember any news about PMs slashing people around in soccer frenzy :)

[G. Zepeda]

The police in Brazil are no joke...