ways of meditating anyone?

[emokidjin]

:) Hi everyone. I think meditation is valid and works..ive done it before one way..but can anyone give me some links as to different ways of meditating? I really want to purify my mind and body and be more calm and start to channel my ki...so if anyone knows methods please show me the way thanks

F. Beshara:D

[Charles Choi]

Hi Mr Beshara!

Firstly, it's useful to actually set yourself up in the appropriate surroundings. Sit comfortably in a quiet area where you can focus. You can read up elsewhere, on whether or not to close/partially open your eyes, body placement and the like.

Further, I concentrate on my breath, then continue to breathe while counting: 1,2,3 onward, until my thoughts start to wander. When my mind wanders, I re-establish my focus and continue without attachment to the wandering mind. I think though, sometimes we all think/analyse meditation too much. Actual practice is IMO the key to any meditation.:)

[Little Big Man]

I'm a big believer in listening to music during meditation. It needs to be simple, though. I like shakuhachi(sp?) music because of the soft tones and sometimes irregular rythm. Native American flute music is good, too. The key is to concentrate on a single note. Not very easy to explain.

[Hans Bachmann]

Here is the proper manner according to the Tibetan Lineage:

From: http://www.digitaldharma.org/dp.asp

Five Parts to a Meditation Practice
Six Preliminary Activities
Must have them to be successful. Shifts gears of the mind from external world to meditation.
Clean up and tidy the room
This becomes the cause to help create a paradise later. Also helps to wake up and get the day going and to slow down the mind. (Do three prostrations before sitting.)
Make Offerings
Water bowl offerings to the five senses - Fill and empty bowls from the left. Empty bowls at night to signify ready to die now. Wipe bowls before filling.
Go for Refuge (KYAB-DRO SEM-KYE)
Going for refuge and generating bodhichitta (implies taking proper meditation posture first). Put left foot up first, etc. Go for refuge (fear and faith needed), and generate bodhichitta.

Visualize Merit Field
Start simply, by visualizing the silhouette of the root lama, and then begin to add features, color, and details later. See as young and vibrant without physical defects.
Purifying Obstacles (with 7 Ingredients)
Gather goodness by seven steps. Confession acts to remove negative energy before meditation, and the other six act to accumulate positive energy. Ganden hla-gya-ma is the 7-ingredient practice focused upon Je Tsongkapa.

CHAK-TSEL: (Prostration)
Folded hands touch crown, mouth, and heart to wish forbody, speech, and mind of a Buddha. Go slowly and wish not to go down to rebirth in hells. Get up quickly. Three prostrations for teacher, teaching, and for those who follow teaching. (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha)
CHU-PA: (Offerings)
SHAK-PA: (Open yourself)
Confession, purification of broken freedom, bodhisattva, and secret vows (very important). You can't concentrate if something is in your conscience. Do something like Vajrasattva visualization.
YI-RANG-WA: (Rejoicing)
Being glad about the good things which you and others have done. It is more powerful to rejoice about your own goodness than that of others. It multiplies your virtue and potential exponentially to be very happy about your own good deeds.
CHU-KOR KOR-WA: (Turn the Wheel of Dharma)
Requesting the holy beings to teach.
SOLN-DEP: (Requesting)
Asking the holy beings to stay and not to break your relationship or to die.
NGO-WA: (Dedication)
Requesting Blessings (SOLN-DEP)
Requesting to give you jin-lap (potential to gain high spiritual goals) - to enable your ability to increase. Request to change ability in every path from simplest beginning to the highest one. After requesting, absorb the being through your crown into your heart.


Six conditions of the surrounding environment.
From Je Tsongkapa's commentary on Dodey Gyen (Sanskrit: Sutralamkara) by Asanga (c. 350 AD).
Stay in a conducive place. (TUNPAY YUL)
Everything you need to be comfortable physically should be there: enough clothing, heat, food prepared for you, etc.
It should be a safe place.
Should have a good environment, where you won't get sick, not too hot or cold or too noisy (sound is the worst distraction).
Good friends: you should have an assistant in retreat with good morality, and similar values. Surrounding people support what you are doing. If people aren't supportive, you'll fail.
Having goodness - not a lot of people around, and no noise. Don't go outside at all, and seal windows so you don't see anything, especially living creatures. No books, radio, or anything to do. Solitude should drive you into your mind.
Attitude that you don't need much to be satisfied (few needs). (DU-PA CHUNG-WA)

Attitude of being satisfied with whatever you get. (CHOK SHE-PA)
This and the prior point are very important. Once you go into meditation, let go of everything and be satisfied. Don't think you need something more or different to have a good retreat. (From Abhidharmakosha by Vasubandhu (C. 350 AD)).
Give up doing a lot of things. Do only the minimum necessary. (JO MANG PANG)
Pure Morality (TSUL-TRIM DAK-PA)
Avoid harming (inflicting physical or mental suffering on) any being. If you go into retreat with
any bad deeds on your conscience, you can not develop concentration. You must be trying to keep
pure morality. Try to be especially good before going into retreat.
Get rid of sense desires (NAM - TOK PANG)
Get rid of desire for things your senses are attracted to. Withdraw from the senses on a subtle level; the mind doesn't register the senses - taste, sight, sound, etc.


Bodily posture - Eight-point posture
Mental process
5 Problems
8 Correction
9 Mental Stages


Object of Meditation
Meditation is a tool; temporary pleasant side effects result from doing meditation. It is not an end, and does not have spiritual value unless focused upon a spiritual object. Mind is easy to influence. Whatever the mind is around, it becomes like that, so if we focus it on a holy object, the mind becomes holy.

Hans Bachmann

[Hans Bachmann]

For Zen:

http://www.do-not-zzz.com

Hans Bachmann

p.s. Zen would seem easy comparably, but it's not.

[emokidjin]

thanks for everyones input about this. I appreciate it....i think i need to start trying to calm myself now because the army right now is putting me through soo much crap. thanks again

Sincerely
Fred Beshara

[Larry Hairgrove]

When a person medatates are they wanting to think or not.Some times I think a person can think to much?What do you think.I can sleep for 14 hours at a time.Is dreaming a form of medatation.

[Hans Bachmann]

Hello,

Living is a form of meditation. There are many ways to meditate. Some attempt to stay in the moment between thoughts, others follow the breath, others meditate on a specific object or thought. It all depends on which tradition that you follow.

The idea here though is to not "grasp" on to "things". Let's say for example that I am doing Zazen. I am seated, following my breath, and thoughts arise during this process. Now I do not want to dwell on my thoughts, but rather let them arise as they will, and then pass. Kind of like the way that clouds pass through the sky. The sky does not grasp onto the clouds, it just lets them come and go. Forcing the thoughts out of your mind is just as detrimental to your practice as dwelling on them. The reason is that by forcing them out, you are dwelling on that idea. So observe the thoughts passively, see them for what they are without any interference from you, and let them pass.

HTH,

Hans Bachmann

[Laotse]

I recommend using Zen, Tibetan, or Taoist (my preferred) techniques only with a qualified teacher -- they are complex and some are potentially harmful unless done correctly.

The breathing 1,2,3 approach is what I learned in beginner's yoga -- pretty simply, pretty basic. Pretty boring, and does not seem to accomplish much except make one a very good counter, maybe establish a little focus.

The "living is meditation" concept does not help at all. I know of three useful types of meditation -- visualization, internal energy manipulation, and cessation of internal dialogue. All require a teacher, at least in the beginning. Anything attempts to learn meditation by reading here or elsewhere is a waste of time.

Meditation is very useful to your martial art, though. Studies show it increasing reflex/response by as much as 30% -- not bad! It also improves focus in all areas of life.

[Tamdhu]

thanks for everyones input about this. I appreciate it....i think i need to start trying to calm myself now because the army right now is putting me through soo much crap. thanks again

Don't expect too much from meditation of any sort. It may give you a temporary feeling of calm or whatever, or some wacky eyelid movies if you're a particularly dogged practicioner, but beyond that it has no value whatsoever, aside perhaps from visualization exercises. You are not 'polishing' anything other than your ability to sit still and do nothing for unnaturally long periods of time.

In it's religious/cultural context, it's the equivalent of getting your noisy nieces exited about playing 'living statues' in the other room...so you can have some quiet! Those zen masters have quite an enviable 'racket' if you ask me.

; )

That said, I wholly sympathize with your wish to get through your present crisis without feeling like you're going to explode or something. It may help to bear in mind that the process of living will ALWAYS involve 'ups' and 'downs'. There is no escape for any of us. It is the persuit of escape that exacerbates our pain. The less time you waste in 'chasing' the ups (via meditation, medication or whatever), the less hounded you will feel by the inevitable return of the downs.

There is no Happy Helmet, and if there was it would numb your senses, paralize and eventually kill you as surely as crack cocaine.

My 2c.

[valence]

In contrast to Mr. Clayton's comments, I don't agree that meditation is even remotely useless or inapplicable to daily life, or that its benefits are temporary.

The mental state described by, and ascribed to, the best martial artists and athletes during their training and application are identical to the mental state practiced during Japanese zazen meditation. Condition your mind to being used to that state, and you're going to be better able to reach it when you're training.

I've found that the ability to perceive and respond clearly that I've gotten from more meditative arts and actual training in zazen has vastly improved my ability to deal with problems in my daily life, and in how I respond and react to other people. Meditation helps you see the difference between how things appear after having been filtered through your assumptions, and they actually happened.

Learning to meditate properly is training the mind to react the way you want it to and when you want it to. Once trained, the applications are limitless, from being able to focus on a problem when distractions are everywhere, to being able to push yourself harder during your training.

If nothing else, it helps you relax better because your brain has had the training that lets it simply stop dwelling on something you can't do anything about.

Essentially, meditation is training the mind in the same way you train your body when exercising... so that it responds with the strength, flexibility and focus that you want. And that's all the time.

Anyway, as for meditation techniques... I like zazen, but to do it right, you really need a teacher. Any kind of repetitive activity, if done correctly and with the right focus (running, rollerblading, swimming, martial arts kata) can be meditation. Find something you enjoy doing where you can focus on the movement alone and do it often.

Hope this helps.

[Hans Bachmann]

valence Wrote:

Any kind of repetitive activity, if done correctly and with the right focus (running, rollerblading, swimming, martial arts kata) can be meditation. Find something you enjoy doing where you can focus on the movement alone and do it often.

Yes, like walking. Any daily activity that is done with mindfulness is a form of meditation. That is why one could say, "living is meditation".

Tamdhu Wrote:

Don't expect too much from meditation of any sort. It may give you a temporary feeling of calm or whatever, or some wacky eyelid movies if you're a particularly dogged practicioner, but beyond that it has no value whatsoever, aside perhaps from visualization exercises. You are not 'polishing' anything other than your ability to sit still and do nothing for unnaturally long periods of time.

This I completely disagree with. May I ask what form of meditation that you have practiced for any length of time that brought you to this conclusion?

Hans Bachmann

[kokumo]

Originally posted by emokidjin
:) Hi everyone. I think meditation is valid and works..ive done it before one way..but can anyone give me some links as to different ways of meditating?

F. Beshara:D

The two fundamental strands of almost all meditation practices are Vipassana (Insight) and Shamatha (Tranquility) Meditation. Although most Hindu and Buddhist teaching in the US has emphasized one or another form of Shamatha meditation as the starting point of practice, historically, most of the Indo-Tibetan and Indo-Sinitic traditions have used Vipassana as the gateway to meditation practice. My own personal experience is in line with the general doctrinal position: for most people, a good foundation in both Vipassana and Shamatha meditation is a prerequisite for fruitful practice in other, arguably more "advanced" forms of practice such as Japanese Rinzai Zen or most Tibetan Vajrayana Practices. That said, Shamatha meditation traditions are fairly strong within the Soto Zen lineages of Japanese Buddhist practice, as well as the Kagyu lineages of Tibetan practice. Some people who do not have any particular affinity for Buddhist practice per se are more drawn to the more secular presentation of basic Shamatha meditation in Shambhala Training, which is also broadly accessible.

As with entering a martial arts dojo, it is best not to check your brain at the door when entering a meditation hall. Each training situation is different and the most important element is the connection between the student and the instructor; what works for me may not be right for you, and vice versa.


For information on Vipassana Meditation, a good place to start is:

http://www.dhamma.org/

This is the web-site of S.N. Goenka, a non-sectarian teacher of Vipassana whose method is highly regarded by both Buddhist and non-Buddhist practitioners of meditation.

For information on Shambhala Training, go to:

http://www.shambhala.org/st/index.html

For information on Soto Zen Practice, one good source is John Daido Loori Roshi's Mountains and Rivers Order, with which the Zen Mountain Monastery at Mt. Tremper is affiliated:

http://www.mro.org/

Good luck.

Fred Little

[Tamdhu]

May I ask what form of meditation that you have practiced for any length of time that brought you to this conclusion?

I have practiced what I believe to be a basic form of Zen meditation (watch your breath, let thoughts pass, if you get 'caught up' in your thoughts again just let go and go back to watching your breath and so on). This hardly, obviously, marks me as an experienced wealth of information on the subject! I used to read about it constantly, and still enjoy reading koans and 'crazy zen' writing, but no longer feel that there is anything there for me beyond a good chuckle or 'whoa'. I remember reading one of the more historical texts on Zen (I can't for the life of me remember which one) which mentioned many of the monks beneath a particular master going crazy at one point. I guess it resonated a bit with a fundamental suspicion that sitting for long periods of time trying to crawl out from under your own mind might not be the most constructive way to spend one's time.

I also have yet to meet anyone who is a die-hard fan of this sort of thing that isn't just as screwy as I am, if not (by my reckoning) a good deal more so! That's just based on my own limited experience, however, and my own admittedly skewed perspective. I don't frequent meditation seminars or any of that, so once again I'm not fit to judge, but do anyways.

The persuit of Enlightenment, to me, seems to be a waste of time. Who is Enlightened and how are they different from you or me? Who is the person 'leading' such and such style of meditation to 'lead' me to Enlightenment? Why would I trust anyone in this sort of fashion? What can enlightenment be besides yet another state of mind? I have enough of those to deal with as it is!

That said, I'm very much in favour of training via visualizations and such, as well as 'active' meditations as were touched on above, which to me are 'flow' experiences. Relaxation techniques are great as well, such as tensing and relaxing and what not.

As for 'zanshin' in the martial arts, once again I'm all for it, but I don't think zazen helps that a bit. Zanshin seems to be almost a state of 'autopilot', where techniques and responses arise smoothly and without a lot of active thought on our parts. When this happens in the dojo, I posit that it is NO DIFFERENT than when it happens everyday as we are driving. Did we become smooth and efficient drivers by sitting in zazen meditation at home? Not me! Lot's of zazen will give you zanshin for...doing zazen.

[Hans Bachmann]

Hi John,

You stated "but no longer feel that there is anything there for me beyond a good chuckle or 'whoa'." and you also stated "Who is Enlightened and how are they different from you or me?" I think the better question would be: "Why would one want to be enlightened? What is the point?" Do you not think that elimination of the ego is a worthy cause, and that once it has been achieved, do you not think that one would become more aware of what is, rather then the way that the ego mind see it?

Referring to meditation, Buddha thus spoke:
"He chooses some lonely spot to rest at. He seats himself, when his meal is done, cross-legged, keeping his body erect, and his intelligence alert, intent.
Putting away the hankering after the world, he purifies his mind of lusts. Putting away the corruption of the wish to injure, he purifies his mind of malevolence. Putting away torpor of heart and mind, mindful and self-possessed, he purifies his mind of weakness and sloth. Putting away flurry and worry, with heart serene, he purifies himself of irritability and vexation of spirit. Putting away wavering, he remains as one who has passed beyond perplexity. No longer in suspense as to what is good, he purifies his mind of doubt." Digha 1,71

If the above is possible, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

The Kalama sutta states:

" Do not believe in anything(simply) because you have
heard it.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been
handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and
rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything(simply) because it is found
written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of
your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that
anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all then accept it and live up to it."

I am curious as to how long (years?), and how consistently (daily?) that you practiced zazen in order for you to have such a view on this subject. I am not patronizing you, I am just asking this question because I am curious as to where you are coming from.

In your favor I would like to state that in the Tibetan lineage, it is believed that following the breath is good to enter a deeper state of consciousness, but to dwell there leads to nowhere. In order to develop Buddha mind, one must have "active" meditation. But, if one cannot follow the breath, one cannot reach the deeper mental states. Thus Zazen is important, and if done as an entry point to a deeper mental state, it has great merit. I have yet to hear of, or meet a dedicated practitioner of zen that has not had some form of this experience. The first step though, is to just sit. Thus Zazen is a worthy endeavor. You cannot open the door, without the key.

Thank you,

Hans Bachmann

[Tamdhu]

Thanks for the detailed (and kindly un-patronizing ; ) reply!

It was probably about ten or so years ago that I was most deeply attracted to zen literature and pretty regular 20-30 minute 'sittings'. It was that 'unsatisfied' stage of life that can come at 14 or 40 in which books by Alan Watts and Hermann Hesse are discovered and suddenly seem to contain the most important truths imaginable. <i>This is it!</i> My life took some interesting and difficult turns at that time and I found my basic assumptions about myself challenged in a variety of ways, none of which were comfortable. Where others drank or otherwise 'self-medicated' them selves in similar situations, I made contemplation, questioning and navel-gazing my drug of choice. It was not by any stretch of the imagination a formalized persuit. The closest I came to actually 'practicing' was an afternoon stop at Tassahara or something like that, a surf-side 'zen monastery' off Route 1 in northern California. The seeds of doubt as to the overall value of the zen persuit had already been planted by that time, however. In between the lines of the 'enlightened' literature I read I felt that I saw a certain fragility or 'playing along' on the part of participants. Enlightened 'role-playing' essentially. I also read accounts where I felt that the participants gave up too willingly to 'masters' who were, in my eyes, drunken and abusive. The zen-center itself was pretty much the final straw. It struck me as a very tempting escape, but a mere escape all the same.

My judgements of course may seem unfair due to the lack of time and effort invested, but we each owe it to ourselves to judge our own paths as we see fit.


I think the better question would be: "Why would one want to be enlightened? What is the point?" Do you not think that elimination of the ego is a worthy cause, and that once it has been achieved, do you not think that one would become more aware of what is, rather then the way that the ego mind see it?

I think that the elimination of the ego is in some ways an attractive cause, in that we may feel that 'seeing things as they are' may give us power over others, or at least prevent them from getting power over us, but I think it is, in fact, a <i>lost</i> cause. The only thing that can 'watch' our thoughts is another thought. In limited degrees this can be a valuable exercise perhaps for quieting thoughts and gaining some equilibrium to plan a course of action in times of internal strife, but if the goal is to excape thought entirely, well, what is it that is escaping? What is it that 'watches' to see if you are enlightened yet or not? That watcher is a thought! If that thought or ego ever disappears, 'you' will never know because 'you' will be gone! Most of us don't want this. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to be enlightened, and to 'know' that we are enlightened.


If the above is possible, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

Absolutely! But all it is is an exercise in thinking, so we must look elsewhere, but that 'looking' too will be simply <i>another</i> exercise in thought, and so on. It doesn't matter if it's Christian Science, Transcendental Meditation, zazen, Hindu-this-that-or-the-other-thing or whathaveyou. They are ALL equally invalid in that the enlightenment which they purport to seek does not exist as anything other than another fancy state of mind.

So long as we look, we never find, because wherever our thoughts go...there is another thought! This action of one thought trying to 'transcend' all the rest is, I believe, very potentially harmful and destructive. The ego is not something we can let go of, because that which is letting go...is the ego. It's like a computer trying to divide by zero or something. We're trapped, unless an act of God or nature or whatever decides otherwise.

Giving up entirely on the search for Enlightenment is, I believe, the single most enlightening thing we can do!

[Hans Bachmann]

Interesting post. I thank you for sharing. I think a lot of this has to do with what one believes in terms of what is the nature of things. Do things actually exist outside our perceptions? Are things self-existent, or are they dependant upon other things to exist. Is there one ego mind and one Buddha mind, are there two minds, one mind, no mind. Personally I believe that there is a deeper mind that is removed of thoughts of self, and sees things in a non-dualistic manner. I died once for a few minutes. While I was dead it was as though all things that seemed to matter to me, did not mean anything at all. They were things that I was very attached to in my life, including my body. When I died they were meaningless to me. They had no substance. I no longer thought of me. I felt connected to everything, and that everything and I were the same. There was no separation. Since I had this experience I have studied religious ways of thought. The idea of no-self, no ego, fits perfectly well with what I experienced while I was dead. I believe, no... I know that there is a greater consciousness that is within my mind, and exists after death, that is hidden most of the time by my desire to fulfill a want that I have, or the way I perceive myself and others according to learned ideas. No matter how much I feed these wants, I just want more. I see this as my ego nature craving and attaching to that which really has no substance. I believe that I can remove that attachment, desire, craving after, that I have through meditation as it allows me to remove thoughts of self, and instead open my mind to what really is. It is a consciousness yes, but a very deep form of consciousness that is not deluded by the ego. Through meditation one has the ability to remove the superficial consciousness (ego) that is developed through learned responses (such as society, parental teachings, etc), and to see things as they are through the use of the awakened mind (deeper, usually hidden consciousness that see things as non-dualistic.).

Personally I do not think that the idea is to remove thoughts, but rather not have our thoughts interfere with the way things actually are. Thinking clearly, without delusional ideas.

You said: "Giving up entirely on the search for Enlightenment is, I believe, the single most enlightening thing we can do!"

This is very true. Because whatever you may perceive as enlightenment, is not, because you do not know what enlightenment is. Thus by searching for something that you do not know what it is how can you possibly find it? You can't. Because there is nothing to relate it to. I like to think of it as uncovering, rather the searching. Because to search means that it is something that is lost and you can't find it. Uncovering means that it is there, you just fail to see it.

I hope this makes some sense to you. I am really enjoying this conversation. Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Sincerely,

Hans Bachmann

[Hans Bachmann]

I just read a quote from a book that I thought would fit well with this thread:

"Zen is the teaching of accepting "things-as-it-is" and of raising things as they go. This is the fundamental purpose of our practice, but it is difficult to see things-as-it-is. I don't mean that there is a distortion of sight, but that as soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw." - Shunryu Suzuki

Hans Bachmann

[Tamdhu]

The death experience you mention echos others I've heard or read about. It seems to bring about a fundamental change in thinking sometimes that some people interpret as physiological and others spiritual. Congratulations, in any case, for staying (for the time being) on this side of the grass!

I guess I have to admit that I don't believe in a greater or deeper consciousness, or at least not in one that we can attain ourselves through any effort or action (or 'intentional lack of action') or series of steps on our part. If this was possible, I think we all would have gone down that path a long time ago and it would have long been a forgotten issue.

As it is, Enlightenment is always bandied about as something that so-and-so has (or had) and you or I don't. It's just another idea, and we like the sound of it because it sounds like, whatever it is, it might just be the cure for every mental or physical discomfort we ever suffered. And then we start beating ourselves, or starving ourselves, or walking on hot rocks or holding our breath or helping the poor or whatever to show the world or god or our master or whomever how serious and worthy we are. Along the way perhaps we experience visions or beautific sensations or sensations of 'emptiness' or whatever and we think that we're getting closer to something. Behind it all we think that surely there <i>must</i> be more to Life than just living!

But why? Why must there be more? More what? Who or what is it that wants 'more'?

Bah! Gotta get back to work!

Cheers,

[Hans Bachmann]

Well there certainly does not HAVE to be more, but personally I think there is... but not more or less, just different then we are accustomed to.

FWIW, it is said that the ability for one to see their true nature is nearly impossible unless one practices earnestly for a long period of time. Though there are reports of people coming to realization instantaneously. Also it is said that it is extremely rare for one to even consider following the path of awakening earnestly, and those that do, do so because of the karma that they have developed over a long period of time.

As far as enlightenment, I can see why you would have such a negative view of it. It seems to follow the "haha, I have enlightenment and you don't so nah,nah,nah." Like all philosophies, there are good practitioners, and then their are practitioners that exploit it for their own means.

Anyway, why should you believe in such things? You should not. There is no reason for you to do so. Remember what I posted previously:

The Kalama sutta states:

" Do not believe in anything(simply) because you have
heard it.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been
handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and
rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything(simply) because it is found
written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of
your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that
anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all then accept it and live up to it."


It has been nice chatting with you.

Thank you,

Hans Bachmann

[Tamdhu]

I have issues with the concept of 'karma' as well, in that it tends to be abusive in a way similar to the idea that "It's okay that we're suffering now, because when we die we'll go to Heaven and everything will be beautiful forever." The idea that one man suffers in life due to actions in a past life, while another man prospers for like reasons just seems a little too convenient for getting the 'prosperous' (spiritually or otherwise) man off the hook for sharing the wealth with his not-so-prosperous neighbor.

I heard an interesting idea of karma put forth as referring not to multiple lives in the biological sense, but rather of multiple lives or 'endless cycle of death and rebirth' in the sense of our thoughts/ego/whathaveyou endlessly rising and dying again and again.

Where we go with that, I'm not so sure...

It's been a pleasure chatting for me as well. I hope I haven't come a cross as a loudmouth who thinks he knows it all, because I really do think about this stuff and really do sympathize and share an enthusiasm for eeking out the truth, wherever or whatever it may be.

Cheers and Thanks!

[Hans Bachmann]

I heard an interesting idea of karma put forth as referring not to multiple lives in the biological sense, but rather of multiple lives or 'endless cycle of death and rebirth' in the sense of our thoughts/ego/whathaveyou endlessly rising and dying again and again.

Yes I have heard this as well, and since we cannot grasp on to any moment, because the moment that you grasp it, it is gone and new again, it does have some merit.


"It's okay that we're suffering now, because when we die we'll go to Heaven and everything will be beautiful forever."

This sounds like the Hindu idea of Karma. It is very Christian like as well. I personally do believe in karma, as I have seen the effects of it throughout my life in various ways. I also agree that it can be a kind of scape-goat that people use to justify their living conditions and what not. I feel that all of us are subject to karma, but I would not consider it in the sense that so-and-so is rich because of their good karma. I have seen enough undesireables that have tremendous wealth that would speak otherwise. I think it is more in terms of how your life is. Meaning how happy you are with your life, and those in it. Material things really do not mean crap when you really look at the scheme of things. I could have a $50,000 car, or a $5,000 car. They are both cars, and both get me to where I want to go. So what's the point of spending so much money on a car, just to be constantly concerned about it's wellbeing? That would make me worried and as such unhappy, and would be due to negative karma. It would seem to explain why certain things happen to certain people, but then you would have to believe in something other then this life. That is a whole other ballgame in itself.

Anyway in closing I wanted to quote Shunryu Suzuki on Zen meditation, because I think that what he has to say is very direct, and gives the practice some merit.

"Zen is the teaching of accepting "things-as-it-is" and of rasing things as they go. This is the fundemental purpose of our practice, but it is difficult to see things-as-it-is. I don't mean that there is a distortion of sight, but that as soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw."

In relation to martial arts, the idea is to see it as it is, without intellectualizing it. This way a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick. It matters not who is throwing it.

Thank you and take care,

Hans Bachmann

p.s. you came off straight and direct. I like that. I never thought of you as a "loudmouth who thinks he knows it all".

[Hans Bachmann]

Sorry for the double post of the quote from Shunryu Suzuki. It didn't seem to post the first time.

Hans Bachmann

[kokumo]

Originally posted by Tamdhu
I have issues with the concept of 'karma' as well, in that it tends to be abusive in a way similar to the idea that "It's okay that we're suffering now, because when we die we'll go to Heaven and everything will be beautiful forever." The idea that one man suffers in life due to actions in a past life, while another man prospers for like reasons just seems a little too convenient for getting the 'prosperous' (spiritually or otherwise) man off the hook for sharing the wealth with his not-so-prosperous neighbor.

If you have a particular interest in the Karma/Rebirth question, check out the back issues of Tricycle for the debate on this topic by Stephen Batchelor and Robert Thurman.

Aside from seconding Hans Bachmann's citation of those key lines from the Kalamma Sutta, I might also suggest that you take a look at Batchelor's "Buddhism without Beliefs."

You might also consider the parallel between some of the notions you have expressed and the line of the Heart Sutra which asserts that there is "no wisdom, no virtue, nothing to attain"

It is true that there are lineages within Buddhism that are pretty firm on some articles of faith such as particular interpretations of karma or rebirth. There are also lineages which concern themselves less with such matters than with practice. Clearly you have an attraction of sorts to practice. My suggestion would be to find a place or teacher that answers that attraction in a way you find fruitful without being overly concerned about other people's views.

Best regards,

Frederick Kotsu Little

[Tamdhu]

Sorry for the double post of the quote from Shunryu Suzuki. It didn't seem to post the first time.

It's a great quote and well worth repeating!

One of my favourites, which maybe one of you can tell where it comes from because I forget, is as follows:

"Let your mind be nowhere in particular."

Pretty much sums up my life!

; )

[Hans Bachmann]

Hi John,

That is a great quote. I do not recall who wrote it, but it is wonderful.

Thank you,

Hans Bachmann