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John Lindsey
30th July 2002, 22:44
How does you dojo begin and end a class? Are there specific words in Japanese (what are they?)to signify it, or words in your native language? Do you use a gong or drum? Do you have mukoso at the beginning, do you bow in, etc…

Dahlia
30th July 2002, 23:28
Hmm... I'm doing kendo. First it's warm-ups, then it goes on with:

"Shinai ote - Seiza - Mokusô - Rei (when everybody is saying "onegai shimasu) - Kirisu - Shomen-ni-rei - Maore - Seiza -"

Then we usually talk about what we are going to do in training today.

"Rei" ends the thing up ;)

It ends with the same procedure, only that at the beginning it's "kote, men tore" added and we say "Arigatou gozaimashita" (that's logical)...

Enfield
31st July 2002, 01:15
I do kendo as well, though our procedure is a somewhat different than what Dahlia wrote. I'm also having a hard time figuring out some of her transliterations, but I suspect that's the difference between what Japanese sounds like to an American and to a German.

"Line-up/Seiretsu." Not always necessary.
"Seiza" once the instructors have sat down.
"Mokuso"
"(Mokuso o) yame"
"Shomen ni rei"
"Sensei ni rei"

Then it's usally on to practice.

At the end of class it's the same thing, with the adition of "Men (to) kote (o) tore" between "seiza" and "mokuso." Depending on who's calling out the instructions, there may be a recitation of the dojo kun to start mokuso. Oh, and bowing to the instructors happens before bowing to the shomen at the end of class. Then it's time for instructor comments. After that, it's "wakare" and everyone gets up and sits down in seiza in front of the highest ranked instructor. He may make some additional comments, but will usually just initiate another zarei and "domo arigato gozaimashita." Then it's on to the next instructor for the same thing until you run out of instructors.

For iaido, it's the same, with the obvious removal of "men to kote o tore" and the inclusion of "torei."

We don't use a drum or anything, but that's probably because we don't have one, as we're not in our own private space. At the dojo I trained at in Japan, it was the same thing, except they beat on a little taiko instead of saying "Seiretsu" at the beginning, and they beat on a big taiko at the end of class.

Dahlia,
I'm curious what action accompanies "shinai ote." I've heard "shinai (o) oite" ("put your shinai on [the floor]") to put your shinai down from sonkyo when it's time to start stretching, but you'd still be standing up at that point in your order. Also, do you stand up ("kiritsu") to bow to the shomen? And then wait bent over until someone calls "naore" ("recover")? The only time I've heard "naore" used is in place of "mokuso o yame."

shadow42
31st July 2002, 05:04
We usually begin, especially if the head instructor is teaching, but often with the other instructors as well, with a formal bow in. Line up by kyu rank in front of kamiza(sp?),sit in seiza, the teacher will raise his hands in a rather "prayer" like position, and say
"Chihaya furu Kami no Oshiewa Tokoshieni, Tadashiki Kokoro Mio Momo ruran. Shikin Harimitsu Dai Komyo"
Now if thats the proper way to spell all those words i dont know, but thats the gist of it. at that point the class repeats "Shikin Harimitsu Dai Komyo" clap twice, bow, clap once, and bow again. then the senior student in attendance will say "present yourself to the teacher and bow" in japanese, I dont remember how to write it. the class says onegai shimasu and bows. then we begin class. We dont do this at the begining of every class but we do it often. If a student comes to class late (like i did tonight. oops.) He or she is expected to do their own bow in procedure. Sometimes we will also do mokuso or something of the sort. Well thers mine

Dahlia
31st July 2002, 11:32
Originally posted by Enfield
I'm curious what action accompanies "shinai ote." I've heard "shinai (o) oite" ("put your shinai on [the floor]") to put your shinai down from sonkyo when it's time to start stretching, but you'd still be standing up at that point in your order. Also, do you stand up ("kiritsu") to bow to the shomen? And then wait bent over until someone calls "naore" ("recover")? The only time I've heard "naore" used is in place of "mokuso o yame."

Okay, see, I posted at about 2 o'clock in the night (German time), after practice and some après-kendo, so one typo hunts the next one...

It's "shinai oite" after you're in seiza. I've never heard this one outside of my club, at seminars you just put it down automatically after "seiza".
Then we do stand up, turn to the shomen and bow (we usually start training sitting in a circle, because we're just about ten persons each time), "naore" is the command to turn back. We don't stay bowed all the time.

"Mokuso o yame" - I've forgotten this one. We do use it to stop mokuso. I guess I was really messed up a bit the last evening...

kenshorin
31st July 2002, 22:09
What my instructor uses is similar to what most people have put. I am not sure about the Japanese and spellings however. (The one thing I have to start learning!)

Shuugou (assemble)
Seiza (kneel)
Mokuso (meditate)
Mokuso o yame (meditation stop)

We then perform three bows
Shomen ni rei (bow to the shomen)
o tagai ni rei (mutual bow of respect to each other, not sure of spelling)
Sensei ni rei (bow to the instructor, while bowing, students reply onegai shimasu)

At the end of class, its the same, only arigato gozaimasu instead of onegai shimasu, and the instructor will reply doitashimashite to the students. Thats about it. Nothing fancy.

John Lindsey
31st July 2002, 22:37
Is arigato gozaimasu as appropriate as arigato gozaimasta? I always thought the TA version was more common at an end of a class...

Enfield
31st July 2002, 22:56
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Is arigato gozaimasu as appropriate as arigato gozaimasta? I always thought the TA version was more common at an end of a class... It depends on what you are thanking. Gozaimasu is the imperfect/non-past tense and gozaimashita is the perfect/past tense. Basically, you use gozaimasu when what you are thanking is on going or will happen in the future and gozaimashita for things that are done.

"Could you loan me a pencil?" = onegaishimasu.
"Here."
"Thank you." = arigato gozaimasu.

Then after using it...

"Thank you for loaning me your pencil." = arigato gozaimashita.

(Obviously, don't take this as literal translations.)

At the end of practice, it should be gozaimashita. If you use the gozaimasu form, you're basically implying that something is going to happen, instead of already having happened.

John Lindsey
31st July 2002, 22:57
Is arigato gozaimasu as appropriate as arigato gozaimasta? I always thought the TA version was more common at an end of a class...

Enfield
31st July 2002, 22:59
Originally posted by Dahlia
Then we do stand up, turn to the shomen and bow (we usually start training sitting in a circle, because we're just about ten persons each time), "naore" is the command to turn back. We don't stay bowed all the time.Interesting. I've only seen zarei to the shomen to start and end class, and I've never seen people "line up" in a circle, even for small classes. Is that common in Germany and Europe?

Shitoryu Dude
31st July 2002, 23:15
Whomever starts the class strikes a large Japanese ceremonial drum once and everybody lines up.

The sensei kneels and the ranking sempei at the far right of the line calls out "seiza" and everybody kneels.

The ranking sempei calls out "meso" for a short meditation and "meso yame" for it to stop.

Sempei will then call out "rei", we all bow and then the Sensei will call out for everybody to stand up.

At the end of the class, the ranking sempei will call out "wakarei" after the first bow and the students will bow and recite "domo arigato gozaimashitei".

When that is done the sensei will leave the mat area and when he leaves the floor each student will stand up, bow and walk off the floor in order of rank.

:beer:

Dahlia
2nd August 2002, 15:23
Originally posted by Enfield
Interesting. I've only seen zarei to the shomen to start and end class, and I've never seen people "line up" in a circle, even for small classes. Is that common in Germany and Europe?

I don't know if it's really common because I've never trained with enouther club aside from seminars (where everybody would line up). Maybe it's because we don't have a real sensei. Our trainer is shodan himself, he would not move on to the other side of the hall, it would be rediculous, I guess.

Enfield
4th August 2002, 02:47
Originally posted by Dahlia
I don't know if it's really common because I've never trained with enouther club aside from seminars (where everybody would line up). Maybe it's because we don't have a real sensei. Our trainer is shodan himself, he would not move on to the other side of the hall, it would be rediculous, I guess.My suggestion in that case, if I may make one, would be to do everything as normally as possible, but replace "sensei ni rei" with "otagai ni rei" (bow to each other). That way, when students from your club go elsewhere, they already know what to do.

And there's nothing ridiculous about a shodan sitting on the sensei side if he leads the club, as that makes him the sensei after all. But if he doesn't want to, that's his call.

gendzwil
6th August 2002, 05:09
Enfield, I've never seen the bow to each instructor bit for a normal class, so there's something unique for your dojo! It's usually only done at seminars, and even there I've seen the instructors wave it off until the end of the day/weekend. Note that if you are visiting someone else's dojo it's derigeur for you to run up and bow to each sensei, no exceptions that I'm aware of (unless you're a long-term guest).

Our dojo (kendo again): group warmup in a circle, then line up students vs instructors, most senior students/instructors closest to shomen. All commands are given by the most senior student there.
Seiza (sit)
Mokuso (we all meditate, or pretend to)
Yame (we stop meditating, or at least open our eyes)
Shomen-ni (everyone turns 45 degrees towards the front)
Rei (we all bow to the front)
Sensei-ni (turn back facing sensei)
Rei (bow to sensei, everyone says onaigashimasu, rough translation "please teach me")
At this point, sensei may make some introductory remarks, class announcements, this sort of thing.
Men-suke (sp? anyways, we put our men on)

At the end:
Men-tore (remove the men)
Mokuso
Yame
Shomen-ni
Rei
Sensei-ni
Rei (everyone says domo arigato gozaimashita, "thank you very much")
Here the sensei usually turn and bow to each other without any command. After that sensei comments briefly on the class or simply thanks us, then we all bow again without any commands.

Note that if you're in a dojo which is buddhist, you'll get shinzei-ni rather than shomen-ni, or if it's shinto you'll get kamiza-ni. We're all a bunch of heathens, so it's simply shomen-ni for us.

In our dojo, everyone sits together and removes their men together but in lots of places I visit the sensei sit first, then the students, the sensei remove their men, then the students. Some places even go so far as to have the students sit starting with the seniors and working towards the juniors. We're relatively egalatarian. At the end of class you'll often see students rushing up to pack up sensei's bogu, again our club doesn't do that although if there's a visiting sensei who goes for that sort of thing sensei will instruct one of us to stepnfetch.

Lots of dojos will do shomen-ni-rei all one command. Some will throw an otagai-ni-rei in there for good measure. Others do everything in reverse, ie finish with mokuso. There's also differences in how people arrange their kote before placing the men down and in how they place the tenugui on/in the men.

Word to the wise when visiting - pay attention, do what everyone else is doing, don't get too hung up on what you think is the "right" way.

Enfield
6th August 2002, 23:37
Originally posted by gendzwil
Enfield, I've never seen the bow to each instructor bit for a normal class, so there's something unique for your dojo! It's usually only done at seminars, and even there I've seen the instructors wave it off until the end of the day/weekend. Note that if you are visiting someone else's dojo it's derigeur for you to run up and bow to each sensei, no exceptions that I'm aware of (unless you're a long-term guest).The only other dojo I've visited did it this way as well. It being the dojo my instructor visits when he's in Tokyo probably makes the similarity non-coincidental.
Originally posted by gendzwil
Men-suke (sp? anyways, we put our men on)Men-tsuke. Tsukeru is attach or stick on.

carl mcclafferty
13th August 2002, 13:39
Folks
Our dojo(s) also bow to the sword i.e. "To Ni Rei". Otherwise everyone seems to do basicly the same. I keep a kamidana in my home/dojo, but some do not due to religious reasons (which is fine).

Carl McClafferty