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lungpai21
31st July 2002, 17:39
Hi everyone


I was wondering if anyone nows of a page or someone. Who has done reaserch into Shorinji Kempo as far as if MrSo really did study what he said he did in china. If so did he bring any materials with when he came back to japan.What were they and what did they state and such.


I don't mean any disrespect twards Mr.So or his system I have just always been curious if anyone has found anything to cooraberate what he has stated with in reason. I know many years ago there was a lot of hubbub about him useing the name shorinji and he was forve by the government to add nippon to it.

Again if I have affended anyone I do appoligize I have just always been curious and have been looking for someone who could answer my questions. Also if anyone would like to could please put what they feel makes shorinji kempo different from similer arts?


Thankyou
Brian J BArtunek

shugyosha
31st July 2002, 21:36
its funy thats i just when trough a book by an historian who made some critics about shorinji kenpo or nippon shorinji kenpo i must say...
the book is named "modern bujutsu" and i cant remember the name of the author, but ill ad it later if you want...

well this author say that its unlikely that so doshin was truely the successor of shaolin quan, beacause chinese wouldnt pass it to a stranger....the author doesnt quote any document or official oppinion to state is judgement...

but he analyse shorinji kenpo technics and critics them to be not the true shaolin techinics because:

-the footwork is made on the ball instead of the heel in shorinji

-gasho gamae greetings didnt exist in shaolin

-all the counter technics against kick are kick in upper area of the body (i only see high kicks in kakirutsu ken, but maybe he had diferent source than mine)

-the grappeling technics (of shorinji) are too sofisticated and infescient although shaoling grappling (chin na) is simplier but more efficien (this is very doubtfull for me, i found grappling technic of shorinji the most efficient i have seen from many M.A...)

-the (shorinji) guard is too high and reduce the vision of the defender (maybe he took a muay thai for a shorinji training afterall? :) )

-spear technic was among the core of training in shaolin and so doshin didnt master spear fighting (how could he know what so doshin master or not?)

-shorinji adept practice in pair with "embu" whereas shaolin monk begin alone with "tao"

-shorinji rely on short attack whereas shaolin on long copound attacks (wrong according all my sources...)


then author also critize the knowledge of shaolin history of so doshin, but dont realy quote the exact teaching of so doshin.

what the author admit is that so doshin when trough china and meet many quan fa masters and say its possible that it met the 20th succesor of northern shaolin quan.

now truth is that so doshin went in china while civil and policit strugle, as a secret agent, and also met master from secret chinese society.
now even if he had photos, document or any proof of his training, it is unlikely that he wanted to make it public.

John Lindsey
31st July 2002, 23:29
Wasn't there a trial in Japan about this very thing?

shugyosha
1st August 2002, 00:27
yes so doshin was forced by japanese autority to change the name from "shorinji kenpo" to "nippon shorinji kenpo"
because it was not anymore a chinese martial art in their point of view. i dont know the detail of the trial.
the book doesnt say much more about it

Kimpatsu
2nd August 2002, 00:56
If you're right and I'm thinking of the book to which you refer, the author had an axe to grind inasmuch as a friend of his, who was a karateka, had attempted to be a Shorinji Kempo dojo breaker and had been beaten up for his pains. Ever since, the friend has been on the warpath, badmouthing Shorinji Kempo wherever he can. Claims of Shorinji Kempo techniques being "ineffective" or "impractical" are typical of this sort of ego-driven criticism.
As for the lawsuit, the purpose was not to force Shorinji Kempo to admit its links with the Chinese Shaolin were more tenuous than claimed (remember, when Kaiso revisited China in 1979, it was to rapturous welcome by the Chinese Shaolin authorities, hardly the reaction you would expect them to give an imposter). Rather, the jingoistic Japanese authorities were striving to distance the Japanese national image from anything that could be thought to have originated in China. (In other words, Japan never imported anything cultural from China; we're so clever, it's all indigenous.) This issue arises every few years, when jingoism gets the better of the bureaucrats at Tora-no-Mon, and they release silly-season claims such as Japan had an indigenous written system before kanji was introduced. (Strangely enough, there are no documents actually written in this language, only supposed samples of the individual letters.) All this really proves is that not even Shorinji Kempo is immune to the vagaries of a suspect political system, and says nothing about the validity of Shorinji Kempo history, or the efficacy of Shorinji Kempo techniques.
Kesshu.

shugyosha
3rd August 2002, 14:52
the author of the book was
F. DRAEGER

colin linz
6th August 2002, 01:22
It should also be noted that Kaiso never said that the techniques are Shoalin; but are a result of his many years of study in various forms of Budo. His concept for using Shorinji was that he wanted to recreate the philosophy and idea behind the Shoalin Temple tradition; not necessarily the technical aspect.

The criticism about single and pair form displays a lack of understanding as to why Shorinji Kempo train this way. Kaiso always stated that he learned the techniques as single form, but decided on instructing them in pair form. There are paintings on the walls of the Shoalin Temple displaying Monks of dark and light skin, training in pairs and enjoying themselves. These paintings gave Kaiso the idea to train in this manner, as he believed it would be a valuable experiential learning tool to complement his philosophy lectures.

As to the claim of being the successor of a Shoalin art who knows; is it important? Kaiso didn't seem to think so in his book "What is Shorinji Kempo" written in the early 1970's. His remarks were that Buntia So was overjoyed at finding a student that was interested and talented. This was at a time when Budo had lost its popularity, and you could buy Russian rifles very cheap. It was much easier and faster for people to buy rifles, than learn a form of Budo. At that time maybe Buntia So was just happy to have a dedicated student of any nationality to pass his knowledge onto.

Cheers
Colin Linz