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Musahi
4th August 2002, 12:30
I`ve been practising Karate-do since already 3 years now and I`m enjoying it! But in my opinion the sensei teaches how to strike properly but really good and useful combinations are missing!
So I`d like you to send me your idea of a fast and useful combination or special technieque!
thanks
oss Musashi

Sochin
4th August 2002, 17:43
Good morning Musahi,

you are welcome here.

Please note the following:

Forum Rules:
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Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.

Good luck with your question.

Ron Rompen
4th August 2002, 21:59
Hmmmm....really good, fast, effective combo's eh?

Knock him/her down
Stomp on him/her till they can't get up

:D

Seriously though, there are so many different ones that I would hesitate to recommend/suggest anything without a bit more information. Why not set up a scenario (very brief, doesn't need a lot of details) and we can all suggest what combination we woul perform (or at least start to perform).

CEB
4th August 2002, 22:54
The Whopper Combo with cheese from Burger King is pretty good.

Goju Man
5th August 2002, 02:07
Subway steak and cheese combo with chips and drink. What about Jared?:D

Seriously, here's one to get you started: ura uchi, gyaku tsuki,
haito uchi, gyaku tsuki. (backfist, reverse punch, ridge hand, reverse punch)

Ron Rompen
5th August 2002, 14:43
Ok, I'll start this off, to give an idea of what I was thinking of in setting up a scenario.

Grabbed from behind in a bearhug, opponent is taller and heavier than you (significantly so, not just a pound or two...at least 50). Opponent is also fairly strong.

You are returning from a day at the park, not carrying any weapons.

What is your initial planned combo to incapacitate/escape?

Khahan
5th August 2002, 16:22
The problem with asking for specific combos (or most specific technique discussions) is that they are too situational.
Ok, somebody grabs you from behind. My favorites include:
sink weight, reach low, grab his ankle and straighten up. Very difficult to defend against.
Throw my head back into his face.
Kick one of my legs up and back to the groin.
Reach behind, grab a handful of belly and twist.
.
Now, those are all basically 1 moves. Combos by definition are a series of at least 2 moves. Move # 2 is going to depend mostly on my opponents reaction.
This is where you get into the 'what ifs,' of which there are thousands or more.
.
As for the original question about favorite combos. Mine are the ones I've practiced the most, for whatever reason. They are the ones that taught me to flow from 1 move to the next w/out having to stop and figure out what I'm doing.
Take the 7 swords combo from Kenpo. I've seen it done and heard it proclaimed as the best combo in that system. Yet the person who was doing it had a partner stand still and he just went through the motions. Looked real pretty.
Then he tried it against a moving partner. He nailed the first attack in the combo. Executed the second attack, but missed, then got pitched across the room.
The guy learned the combo as it relates to himself, really well. But that was it. He never learned how to adapt it to change 1 or more of the motions. He never learned how to adapt it to adjust his attacks for his opponents changing posture. He never 'learned' to stop the sequence if it was broken.
Practicing combos are great if you know what to look for in them.
Perhaps your teacher does not teach a lot of combo's because he does not want you or other students to get 'stuck' thinking they are the end of the process.

Goju-Ryu
5th August 2002, 23:18
Of course an effective combo depends on the situation you're involved...
But maybe you won't need a combo if your first movement finishes with your opponent right? ;)

But are you asking for an effective combo for training and to improve your knowledge and skillness, or an effective combo for street fighting?

For street fighting I would advise you this one:
-a very quick and powerful gedan maegeri (to the knee, or to the groin)
-a following ura zuki to the lower stomach
-an age zuki to the chin
-and then a furi zuki to finish

You could change the mae geri for a kizami zuki to the face if you want...:D

Just my two cents...

Tatsu
6th August 2002, 00:22
For bear hugs over the arms you can sink your weight, grab his ankle (with both hands) and "sit" on his knee, falling on top of him and finishing with a knee bar. I think someone already used that self defense tech, I just explained it fully. You can also use a reverse elbow to the head (twisting around) or a one knuckle strike to the back of his hand followed by a foot stomp or groin hook kick.

For bear hugs over the arms, drop your weight, bring your arms to 90+ degrees, stepping either your left leg behind his right leg (or right behind left), grasping the tendons behind the knees (make sure you bend over far enough), scooping him off his feet and throwing him over your hip.

These aren't striking combos, but they are effective for the scenario you detailed.

Ron Rompen
6th August 2002, 03:34
Ok, now we're getting in the spirit of things. I like the 'break the knee' concept, but remember that your opponent is significantly stronger than you are...you may not be able to reach down and grab the ankle/calf.

My own combo for this situation would be as follows:

1) Heel stomp to the top of the foot (doesn't matter which one)

2) Immediately followed with a backwards heel kick to the groin.

3) By this time he/she is (hopefully) in a significant amount of pain, and has at least partially released you. Now is the time to twist left or right, augmented elbow to the ribs/abdomen/chest, and then run.

(Remember, that is the whole purpose of this exercise...to escape unharmed).

larsen_huw
6th August 2002, 09:34
Ron,

How about if the guy was wearing work boots (steel toecaps, added protection, that sort of thing)?

While a stomp on the foot can be very effective against someone in trainers or ligth shoes, you'd need to change the first technique if they had work boots on.

My personal substitution would be to bang my heel against their shin bone. it might sound silly and ineffective, but a sharp strike directly on the shinbone can be eye wateringly painful.

I'd also add a side kick to the knee before running away. I'd definately feel safer knowing this bigger, stronger guy won't be following me! It would also help in the goal of escaping unharmed.

Tatsu
6th August 2002, 10:23
Originally posted by Ron Rompen
Ok, now we're getting in the spirit of things. I like the 'break the knee' concept, but remember that your opponent is significantly stronger than you are...you may not be able to reach down and grab the ankle/calf.

Yes, very good point. Many times, especially with bear hugs under the arms, a bigger guy will lift you up making it impossible for you to do any ground based unbalancing techs. In this situation, you can hook the back of his leg with one of your free legs, compromising his balance. He will probably set you back on your feet, or stumble, loosening his grip on you and this is the time you can reach for one of his legs and sit on his thigh and crank his leg upward. You may have to propel yourself backward in order to take him down. You can then stomp on his groin, or just be in a more advantageous position. You should react as soon as you feel him grab you.

Shin kicks are good if you are wearing hard soled shoes. Women wearing stilettos can create havoc with a good foot stomp, in conjunction with or followed by a rear head butt.

Khahan
6th August 2002, 11:53
Originally posted by larsen_huw
Ron,


My personal substitution would be to bang my heel against their shin bone. it might sound silly and ineffective, but a sharp strike directly on the shinbone can be eye wateringly painful.


Even better than simply banging the heel, but along the same lines: Strike the top of his shin with either the outer or inner blade of your foot, then drag that blade down his shin. Especially if your opponent is wearing shorts and you have nice rubber soles. The way rubber rips at hair on your legs is intense. And the pain on the shin is even worse.

Mike Williams
6th August 2002, 11:53
I like Tatsu's suggestions ('cos I'm a grappler, LOL).

Another idea which might work from an over-the arms bear hug is a dropping shoulder throw: control his right arm and pivot sharply to the left, dropping your weight, and going down on to your right knee. Finish with your favourite armlock or a bit of ground-n-pound.

As with all these moves, you'd probably need to get a good headbutt or footstomp in first.

It actually seems easier to me to defend against over-arm bearhugs than under-arm bear hugs, probably because it's too easy for your attacker to lift you off the ground with the latter.

Aside: Our head instructor was once attacked in a bar by a largeish drunk fellow, who upon hearing that sensei was a martial artist, grabbed him in a bear hug and started carrying him around the room, saying "what you going to do about this, then?". What did sensei do? Nothing. He knew the other fella would have put him down eventually. Sure enough he did...
One kick to the kneecap later, and my instructor made his excuses and left... :D

Cheers,

Mike

Khahan
6th August 2002, 16:06
The other problem with defending against under the arm bear hugs is that you have less rib protection. They crack very easy and its much easier to hold a compression and suck the breath out of somebody
At the same time, with your arms free if they grab you underneath, it opens up reaching behind to clap the ears, gauge the eyes, hook the nose...
Again, all set ups for you to do something else. What you follow up with is going to depend on their reaction. But at least at that point they are reacting which means, bearhug or not, you are controlling the movements.

Zoyashi
6th August 2002, 18:21
Hello, all
One thing a lot of strikers forget or don’t know is that someone with his arms wrapped around you in a bear hug can smother your blows pretty effectively. If your arms are in a bearhug, you can pretty much forget about reverse elbow strikes or even chops to the groin dropping your attacker or causing him to loosen his grip. He’ll be shifting and smothering, and I guarantee you will not be able to generate as much power as you’re used to. Similarly, foot stomps, groin kicks, etc will usually not have stopping power, and will leave you balanced precariously on one foot, whereupon your attacker will throw you to the ground and introduce you to his boot. Simple, direct attacks like strikes are fine, but especially if your attacker is bigger than you (which they probably will be, since small men don’t usually start fights with bigger men), he will almost certainly be able to stifle or endure your blows until his friend can arrive with the broken beer bottle. Dropping to grab the ankle (since most people lean forward when they bearhug) is a much more effective response, since it utilizes weight and leverage, and a knee bar has a lot more stopping power than a elbow jabbing at your ribs.
I say this not to flame or offend, but to explicate. Striking is excellent outside of the clinch, but in a bearhug, you’ll want leverage and joint manipulation, not stifled strikes.

Josh Gepner

Goju Man
6th August 2002, 21:53
Josh, I must thank you for that very informative, and much more true statement. The original idea I think was the author wanted some combinations to be able to work. I hadn't planned on addressing this was inspired by your post. Those bear hug scenarios obviously don't include anyone with wrestling backrounds. The attacker isn't going to kindly stand there while you run off all these different techniques on him. You'd better hope to keep the attacker at bay, if the gap is closed and he's got his hands on you, it's a whole different ball game.

Bryan, you have been exposed to guys like Caique. I don't think you can really beleive that any of those scenario techniques would work if he got you in a bear hug, do you? Everything else except for the ura zuki to the stomach might work. The ura zuki would mean having to partially turn you back to you opponent, which negates all the other techniques from a body positioning point of view. Not that a ura zuki would ever take the wind out of someone.

Josh, very nice my man! :toast:

Goju-Ryu
6th August 2002, 22:02
I'd just like to say that a back kick to the groin is quite difficult to make while you're being suffering a bear hug from behind!
I think that a back kick (shiro geri) to the knee is more efficient...

Ron Rompen
7th August 2002, 03:33
Scenario: Local bar/pub/club, very VERY busy (lots of ppl, lots of tables and chairs, very little room to move). Lighting level is low to medium.

A semi-drunk individual approaches you, mistakes you for someone else, and is determined to attack you no matter what you say. He stands relatively square-on to you, reaches out with his left hand to grab your shirt (in the area of the throat, but not a choke) and is obviously preparing for a punch with the right hand.

What are your actions/reactions and why?

Tommy_P
7th August 2002, 03:44
Originally posted by Zoyashi
Similarly, foot stomps, groin kicks, etc will usually not have stopping power


These attacks are usualy used only to cause a reaction in your attacker. Hopefully a startle and a momentary loosening of his grip. It's in this moment you would move to whatever escape technique the situation dictates.

They're not meant to take out or "stop" your opponent. Only to "set up" your next move.

Tommy

Mike Williams
7th August 2002, 09:03
Originally posted by Ron Rompen
A semi-drunk individual approaches you, mistakes you for someone else, and is determined to attack you no matter what you say. He stands relatively square-on to you, reaches out with his left hand to grab your shirt (in the area of the throat, but not a choke) and is obviously preparing for a punch with the right hand.

What are your actions/reactions and why?

Palm heel strike to his left collar-bone, simultaneously stepping in for O-soto-gari. Nearly all my favourite combos involve some form of o-soto-gari. It rocks.

Actually, the above scenario is almost a 'dream' situation for us jujutsuka. We spend sooo much time drilling defenses to attacks like that. Once he's grabbed hold of me he is going down.

Nothing wrong with a good old pre-emptive biff on the nose, though.

Cheers,

Mike

larsen_huw
7th August 2002, 09:52
Scenario: Local bar/pub/club, very VERY busy (lots of ppl, lots of tables and chairs, very little room to move). Lighting level is low to medium.

A semi-drunk individual approaches you, mistakes you for someone else, and is determined to attack you no matter what you say. He stands relatively square-on to you, reaches out with his left hand to grab your shirt (in the area of the throat, but not a choke) and is obviously preparing for a punch with the right hand.

What are your actions/reactions and why?


Well as a striker, not a grappler, my immediate reaction would be to step back and create a little distance to work with. It could also pull the the semi-drunk individual off balance, as he'll be trying to hold on.

I'd then close that distance very quickly, first with a head or upper body technique as a distraction, followed by some sort of kick to the knee or ankle, possibly a stomp on the kneecap. Then i'd make a very swift exit!

I've seen some (very few, but i wouldn't want to risk it) people get up and come after their opponent after being punched in the face, but it's hard to chase someone with a dislocated or shattered kneecap. About 20 years ago, when my dad was a young man ( my dad .... a young man .... maybe it was more than 20 years ago then ..... possibly closer to when dinosaurs ruled the world!!!:D ) , he did a little judo. Once when trying to wriggle out of a pin, his kneecap got pulled about 3 inches out of position. He told me his whole world exploded with pain.

This scenario is probably closest to anything practiced in the dojo .... attacker to your front, not a suprise attack, almost waiting for you to show him the error of his ways!

Khahan
7th August 2002, 14:13
Ok, its an obvious threatening situation, but if I was not really too worried about him hurting me, this is one of the few situations where a lock or hold might be appropriate.
Just with the scenario you gave, look around for his friends while he is squaring off.
If I can neutralize him or even push him off quick w/out hurting him and let the bouncers do their job, I'll do it.
If it seems that is morely likelty to just get me more hurt (maybe I notice his buddies are slightly drunk and think I'm the same person he thinks I am...bad news then), well, its self defense.
Closest hand to him goes right up under the chin with a nice palm strike.
Step off to get to an outside position so he's no longer squared off and make sure nobody else is jumping in to help him.

Goju Man
8th August 2002, 00:00
I think in this situation, I would opt for a jumping 360 in the melee technique brought up by a freind a while back.:D

Laotse
8th August 2002, 03:49
You folks must all be big guys, because your replies take a very "big guy approach". What if the attacker is significantly larger? Isn't he usually? I'm 5'7, so I know about this stuff.

My point is, you may not be able to sink within a bear hug, and you may not have access to the leg, knee, or foot. Your opponent may be too big and strong. You may not be able to stomp. He may be holding you up off the ground! If that is the case, here is another, more daring and certainly very effective way to counter-attack:

Jump up and backwards. Try to drop or sink down, and if you pulls you back up, curl your knees up into your chest, launching yourself up in the direction of his movement, launching yourself either into or over him with a backwards somersault. At the least, you knock him over backward on his neck or back, with you landing on top for emphasis. At that point you jump up and get the hell out of there before he recovers from the impact. You will have probably time to get in a few extra licks of your choice if you wish to dilly-dally around.

Too many of these bear-hug and similar karate-school scenarious make the mistake of thinking attacks like foot stomps will be possible. When the attacker is too big, many things are not possible, and only unconventional thinking will prevail.

Khahan
8th August 2002, 13:58
Dale,
I'm 5'7", 145 lbs. Not exactly big. 1st, I was assuming these were from behind bear hugs. In those cases, no matter how big the guy (I've done with one beast in my studio who is 6' 280 lbs with a grip of iron), you can always get hold of something on his leg, be it the knee, the ankle...the pant leg.
As for the foot stomp, I agree with you whole heartedly. But as somebody already pointed out, a foot stomp or even an eye gauge is not a technique in and of itself that will end a situation.
It needs to be a set up to loosen the opponent and that loosening, will only be a split second, if even that.
It is more difficult against such a large person with so much overpowering strength and muscle..but then again like I also said earlier..you can always reach a hand behind, grab a fistfull of belly and twist. ;)

Tommy_P
8th August 2002, 16:01
If he is a lone assailent and he has you in a bear hug from behind then both his hands/arms are occupied.

He can't do much else besides hold you. May as well just go limp and wait for him to get tired of holding you and have to release his grip. :D

Tommy

Zoyashi
8th August 2002, 16:31
Tommy P –
A quick response to your last two posts. Sure, footstomps are only used as a set-up technique, but a lot of karate schools teach them as a self-defense end in themselves. “If a guy grabs me I’ll just stomp his foot, hit him, and he’ll let go.” It’s just ain’t true. Also, the trouble with set up techniques is that they’re a LOT less effective outside the dojo than we’d like to believe. When the blood is up, a human being can take a lot of punishment. Ever read Black Hawk Down? Lots of documented instances of people taking two or three bullets to the chest or extremities and keeping on going. If a machine gun bullet can’t drop someone, the odds are not good a backfist will. Ellis Amdur tells a story about doing a pressure-point release to a judo friend of his. His friend grabbed him, Ellis hit the pain spots, his friend went flying. Then Mr. Amdur said, “okay, now imagine I just raped your sister,” and got him mad. Hit the same spots even harder – not a flinch.
Sure, a footstomp may buy you some time. But it also may not do a blessed thing, and if some big, brawny arms are squeezing the life out of you, your next move had better be something incapacitating and not just another ineffectual strike.
Finally, I can’t help but note that however well intentioned, your advice to “go limp and wait for him to get tired of holding you” is pretty risky. Unless you’re mistaken and he’s not trying to hurt you at all, but merely wants to display his affection, going limp and waiting will get you messed up. He will either 1. lift you up, trip you over his legs, throw you to the ground and stomp the crap out of you; 2. squeeze or choke you, or, worst of all, 3. Hold you until his friend arrives and starts pounding on you.
As far as front collar grab combos, I’m with Mike. And elegant osoto gari can dispose of your opponent with a minimum of effort, without hurting if necessary. And you can easily back away or take that arm in an arm bar if they decide they want to continue. Looks better to the police than punching someone in the throat.

Josh Gepner

Sochin
8th August 2002, 17:21
I agree with most of the comments abuot the failures of foot stomping etc but when we practice lifting students up from behind, over the arms, they automatically will squirm and twist, shaking themselves back and forth.

So I've taken to getting them to adjusting their actions just a little, swinging their feet forward and up so they can then swing them down and into their captors legs...the momentum is quite high and can often get a release without any impact.

but in all, some guys are just so strong you really are at their mercy until they go on to the next step which may provide an opening. :(

Tommy_P
8th August 2002, 18:32
Originally posted by Zoyashi
When the blood is up, a human being can take a lot of punishment. Ever read Black Hawk Down? Lots of documented instances of people taking two or three bullets to the chest or extremities and keeping on going. If a machine gun bullet can’t drop someone, the odds are not good a backfist will.

If that's the case then nothing will work. This seems a bit extreme.

While you raise some interesting points, it has been my experience with street altercations that the assailent isn't normally expecting a skilled response thus is easily surprised, he doesn't plan for "just incase". While a foot stomp or pinch or finger bend may not be completely effective, it only takes a flinch for you to maneuver slightly and start the unbalancing/hold breaking.
What happens next depends on your fighting prowess.


Finally, I can’t help but note that however well intentioned, your advice to “go limp
and wait for him to get tired of holding you” is pretty risky. Unless you’re mistaken and he’s not trying to hurt you at all, but merely wants to display his affection, going limp and waiting will get you messed up. He will either 1. lift you up, trip you over his legs, throw you to the ground and stomp the crap out of you; 2. squeeze or choke you, or, worst of all, 3. Hold you until his friend arrives and starts pounding on you.

I said that half jokingly but there is some truth to it. I have done this...granted it was when a freind grabbed me and said "ok, what will you do now?" I let him shake me and lift me until he tired and tried to ground me by shaking and attempting to trip me. The important thing was to keep my balance. When he tries to trip me up, as he is loosening his grip is when I reverse the attack and catch him off balance. Then I turn loose on him! Like I said this is during a "freindly" attack but it's not much different from an attacker who is alone. On the street it's fear that takes over, that's the problem.

I said it half jokingly because I probably wouldn't attempt this on the street but you never know....it's a situational thing. Even if he throws me to the ground, he has still "let go"..I need to then roll out and run or face him head on...but free from grip.

A freind of his coming to help is a different matter which I won't address here.

If he moves to choke you then he has momentarily released his grip with one hand to move it to your neck. That's your window of opertunity, granted a small one, but this is what we train for isn't it?
You have to think quicker than the average possibly high and sluggish thug. Why do we always assume the thug is stronger than us? We train hard remember?

I partially agree that stomps and such aren't that efective in and of themselves but it depends how you utilize the time they may buy. Speed and reaction is of utmost importance. Ideally one shoud react before a complete hold is applied but everything you do afterwards must be done quickly. Creating that deversion by startling or whatever is worthless if you don't act quickly and make good use of the little time you have. It's the small things that lead to bigger things.

In the heat of the moment punches and kicks may be inefective and the crazed attacker may feel no pain but no pain or not if he can't see then it doesn't matter. No amount of adrenaline or pcp will help a missing eye. I've never seen a stoned thug that could still walk with a knee turned inside out or not able to breath from a crushed windpipe. Easier said than done, I know, but beyond technique one needs to learn how to stay in control when attacked, that's when things work.

Tommy

Tommy_P
8th August 2002, 19:08
Originally posted by Kenzo
going limp is not such a good idea if the attacker wants to take you to a secondary location for rape or abduction etc...better to get free in the first 3-5 seconds if possible.


Agreed, Like I said, it's situational. Again, letting him hold you till he tires wasn't a totally serious statement but in some instances itcan work.

Tommy

Zoyashi
9th August 2002, 17:50
Tommy P-
Most of your points I agree with, but again, there are a couple things I must take issue with. First off you wrote that my example of enduring gunshot wounds in Black Hawk Down “seems a little extreme.” It is neither hypothetical nor extreme – it is documented fact. The human body is extremely resilient. You CANNOT depend on strikes stopping an assailant cold. This is not to say strikes don’t work – they often do. But especially in close, with an opponent grabbing and manhandling you, strikes rarely have sufficient stopping power to end a confrontation. You say if bullets won’t do it, nothing will – again, this is incorrect. The knee bar mentioned above will do the job nicely.
You state pinches, footstomps, etc are merely there to create a window of opportunity in which to apply subsequent techniques. I certainly agree with that. I guess my question is, what do you do next? If you’re using weight, leverage, and joint action to escape, I think you’ll be successful, but far too many karate school only teach the “footstomp, groin chop, back elbow strike, backfist to face and I’m out!” type of self defense. This is risky stuff.
Finally, comparing wrestling with your friend to an attack on the street is silly. An attacker is trying to hurt you. Your friend isn’t. That difference totally changes the nature of the encounter.
Regards,
Josh Gepner

Tommy_P
9th August 2002, 21:49
Originally posted by Zoyashi
First off you wrote that my example of enduring gunshot wounds in Black Hawk Down “seems a little extreme.” It is neither hypothetical nor extreme – it is documented fact. The human body is extremely resilient.

I appologize if I sounded doubtful towards your statement. I don't disput the facts you've stated nor the resiliency of the human body. I was merely pointing out that if someone is gonna keep coming no matter what you do then we're in trouble!

This reminds me of a quote from the author of a great book on pre 1882 jujitsu. He describes an escape from a hold in which you break your opponents finger. He goes on to say that if he doesn't let go, break another. If he's a stubborn one and refuses to let go still......then break another. He then states rather light heartedly "IF, you break all ten and he is still holding on then I'm sorry I can't help you"!


You state pinches, footstomps, etc are merely there to create a window of opportunity in which to apply subsequent techniques. I certainly agree with that. I guess my question is, what do you do next? If you’re using weight, leverage, and
joint action to escape, I think you’ll successful, but far too many karate school only teach the “footstomp, groin chop, back elbow strike, backfist to face and I’m out!” type of self defense. This is risky stuff.


What comes after creating that window of oportunity depends on the individual and his particular learning or preferences. For "me" it's bombardment:D(depending on the distance). I like taking out knees poking eyes, attacking throats and necks etc along with heavy artilary (punches). But thats me, others prefer other things and thats fine.

I agree that foot stomps, pinches and elbow strikes taught as the "complete" technique is totally wrong. Then again even allot of karate bunkai is misunderstood and left at level one. The next level is never taught. I guess escaping from a hold is bunkai. What we do after is the oyo and thats an individual thing.


Finally, comparing wrestling with your friend to an attack on the street is silly. An attacker is trying to hurt you. Your friend isn’t. That difference totally changes the nature of the encounter.

I agree and disagree.
First off I stated that I was aware that one was a friendly encounter and the other was for real and I am aware of the difference. I only made the comparison in this instance due to the nature of the scenario....that being a bear hug.
You may disagree but as far as a bear hug is concerned, IMO there's not much difference who's doing it other than size and strength.

What would be "silly" would be if I made the comparison of a friend wielding a rubber knife compared to a street thug in the same scenario. Now thats dangerous! However i still contend that a bear hug from behind, even in the street, is reletively harmeless compared to a weapon or a choke or even a frontal attack.

Why? "IF" it's a "single" attacker, then both his hands are occupied. Unless he's throwing you imediately into a car then he is stuck carrying you around. If he wants to take you to another location...an alley maybe...then when he gets there, he has to put you down. Right? Now it's just a normal face to face fight and he's probably tired from carrying you. Again, it's just my opinion, but it's based on my experiences in street altercations. If there is one attacker and noone else around, of coarse i want to free myself as soon as possible. But in reality, I think you can stay in a bear hug till the cows come home, he'll tire before I will. Who wants to hug and shake 205 lbs for long?:D When he tires I got him.

Actually I would attempt to make my escape imediately if not sooner, but I'm just making a point.

Tommy

Goju-Ryu
9th August 2002, 22:36
<b>Scenery:</b> Imagine a drunken guy moving towards you...

You punch him, he might fall or not but, he'll stand up again.
You punch him again, he might fall or not but, he'll stand up again.
You punch him again real hard, he might fall or not but, he'll stand up again...

<b>BUT</b> if you kick him real hard in a leg or knee, you can be sure he won't stand up again :D

Goju Man
9th August 2002, 23:15
BUT if you kick him real hard in a leg or knee, you can be sure he won't stand up again
That sound like something out of a karate kid movie. At the risk of offending some posters out here, I think that every scenario I've read in here complete with it's bunkai is not at all what real confrontations are like. These are the same scenarios I was taught over twenty five years ago. Some people are living in a dream world with some of these scenarios. Put on some pretective gear and really give them a try and I think you'll get a reality blast. When the adrenaline starts pumping, things start moving and punches start flying, you are not going to have the time to contemplate how you're going to go "limp" or sink your weight or back kick him in the knee. Reality factoid: You are not going to get bear hugged unless: A) the opponent is an experienced grappler in which case you'll be flat on your back or dumped on your head before you can say "bunkai" or B) the guy is the second coming of Arnold Shwarzenneggar and you'll likely be in the same position as A. Don't beleive it? Watch some of these "cops" shows as a start, and see it sometimes takes more than one cop to subdue a street punk without formal training of any kind.
(grappling or weight) Or go to a bar a pinch some guys girlfreinds butt who's bigger than you and see. Or go to a Vale Tudo, BJJ, Kyokushin school, put on some protective equipment and give it a whirl. Good luck.

Goju-Ryu
9th August 2002, 23:36
<b>"Or go to a Vale Tudo, BJJ, Kyokushin school, put on some protective equipment and give it a whirl"</b>

What do they have more than the others?

Goju Man I understand your point, but I was referring to a drunked guy...
I know for experience that's quite difficult to secure an angry person, having or not any martial knowledge. A
nd that when you're in a real fight punches and kicks come from everywhere but what are we training for? to "punch to the air"? or to "punch" one time and finish all the question, this of course if there is no turning back... Because Karate is an art of inteligent persons... And as I am used to say "Karate is to learn not to fight"
:cool:

Tommy_P
10th August 2002, 00:09
Originally posted by Goju Man
At the risk of offending some posters out here, I think that every scenario I've read in here complete with it's bunkai is not at all what real confrontations are like. These are the same scenarios I was taught over twenty five years ago. Some people are living in a dream world with some of these scenarios. Put on some pretective gear and really give them a try and I think you'll get a reality blast.
Or go to a bar a pinch some guys girlfreinds butt who's bigger than you and see. Or go to a Vale Tudo, BJJ, Kyokushin school, put on some protective equipment and give it a whirl. Good luck.

With all due respect I don't totally agree.
For one the scenario you give with "cops" is semi correct. Don't forget they are on film for one and second they are trying to use reasonable force. Most times their training sucks also.

As for your other points, while good, I am not in total agreement. I said in my previous post that it's an "individual thing". For me, I'm not a small guy. While not a brute I am still fit at over 200 lbs. Why does everyone refer to the thugs as "scarey big dudes, mean as hell". Damn. I think I'm a scarey big dude and plus I know how to fight! I can be just as wicked as they can.

I can't say I've seen that many Shwarzeneger looking muggers and junkies out there (although I have seen one or two). Usually they're just looking for easy prey, not a confrontation. And I doubt there are many "experienced" grapplers in the street as you say. As for the kyokushin reference....been there done that.

What I draw on is my life growing up in the south Bronx NY. I never worried about bear hugs and headlocks and all that crap even as a kid and before I knew any martial arts.None of us did, that was typical street stuff and easily dealt with. It's the weapons I worry about.

So far in my time I've been stabbed, on the recieving end of drive by shootings, hit with baseball bats, clubs, belts, fists and feet....you name it. What's worked best for me? A little training and allot of instinct.

All of your points are well taken and no offence is intended nor taken:) But please, don't assume people haven't dealt first hand with the scenarios mentioned.

Bear hugs and things of that nature can be serious obviously, especially for woman and children, but any kid from "the neighborhood" untrained in the arts ccan easilly deal with this stuff.

Again I have to go back to the all too common statement eluding to the fact that assailents are "big strong experienced fighters". Are the posters here all weak, small, timid and inexperienced? I doubt it (not refering to the begginers who frequent the boards).
I know I'm not wimpy looking snd I know I'm in great shape.

I'm a man just like my attacker and thats how I view it........I may get mine...you never know, but there's a good chance he won't be bothering anyone else real soon ;)

Tommy

Goju Man
10th August 2002, 01:59
Because Karate is an art of inteligent persons... And as I am used to say "Karate is to learn not to fight"
Filipe, I agree. We don't train to bully people or anything like that. But to train for reality, you must train as close to reality as you can. Why do something half way?


For one the scenario you give with "cops" is semi correct. Don't forget they are on film for one and second they are trying to use reasonable force. Most times their training sucks also.
Tommy, I made that analogy so people could relate. I've seen the not on camera scenes from being present. A lot of cops I know train in some kind of martial art. My freind and instructor is a Lieutenant in the PD down here and we've trained with and many Police Officers. They are better equiped than most others.


All of your points are well taken and no offence is intended nor taken But please, don't assume people haven't dealt first hand with the scenarios mentioned.
None taken, I'm glad I have not offended anyone. Most street muggers and professional street hoods are armed indeed. A lot of unarmed situations are at night clubs and other social gatherings. Somebody's jeleaous boyfreind, the guy who had an alcoholic ego lift, the guy who's chemically altered, childrens baseball, football, hockey games as of late, road rage, etc. These are the more common places for unarmed combat.


Regards,

Khahan
10th August 2002, 15:04
Originally posted by Goju Man

That sound like something out of a karate kid movie. At the risk of offending some posters out here, I think that every scenario I've read in here complete with it's bunkai is not at all what real confrontations are like. These are the same scenarios I was taught over twenty five years ago. Some people are living in a dream world with some of these scenarios. Put on some pretective gear and really give them a try and I think you'll get a reality blast.
.
How can you get a blast of reality with protective gear on? ;)
At the same time, I don't think the purpose of this is to instruct each on other on the one way to deal with a situation. I've never had somebody put me in a bear hug (over or under the arms or front/behind) in any aggressive manner. I have had the drunk guy in a bar scenario many times.
Now, if it happens, again, I'm not going to think to myself, "Shuto to the collar bone because that was what they posted on E-budo."
But, when I'm in the dojo training, I may try some of these and see what happens. See what they open up.

the Khazar Kid
10th August 2002, 17:37
Getting back to the original topic, one combo I particularly like is left roundkick, straight left punch, straight right punch, right roundkick, straight right punch, straight left punch, left roundkick, repeated ad infinitum. The kicks coming from outside lines set the opponent up for the punches straight down the middle and vice versa.

Jesse Peters

Tommy_P
10th August 2002, 18:22
Originally posted by the Khazar Kid
Getting back to the original topic,


Good call!

I have a few favorites but to translate them into text would be like a three car accident:D

One simple one I like is:

Both you and your opponent are in a left foot forward(or right) fighting stance.

Lead shin kick to his lead shin followed by a lead hand punch to face or chest, reverse punch middle finishing with a rear leg round kick, preferably to the head but a shin to the ribs will do.

The key is the first technique....the shin kick. This moves the lead leg causing his body to move forward slightly setting up the next punch and the rest of the combo.

The shin to shin is the most effective but it can be altered to fit your styles rules/preferences.

Tommy

Tatsu
10th August 2002, 22:41
Originally posted by Goju Man
Josh, I must thank you for that very informative, and much more true statement. The original idea I think was the author wanted some combinations to be able to work. I hadn't planned on addressing this was inspired by your post. Those bear hug scenarios obviously don't include anyone with wrestling backrounds. The attacker isn't going to kindly stand there while you run off all these different techniques on him. You'd better hope to keep the attacker at bay, if the gap is closed and he's got his hands on you, it's a whole different ball game.

Bryan, you have been exposed to guys like Caique. I don't think you can really beleive that any of those scenario techniques would work if he got you in a bear hug, do you? Everything else except for the ura zuki to the stomach might work. The ura zuki would mean having to partially turn you back to you opponent, which negates all the other techniques from a body positioning point of view. Not that a ura zuki would ever take the wind out of someone.

Josh, very nice my man! :toast:

First off man, I'm the one that first detailed the leg bar scenario. People said they didn't like that one so I gave them a couple of options. Most were distractionary set-ups, but some HAVE worked in the streets before. As for guys like Caique: Him and Ryron and even Renner would never just attack you. They'd have to be pushed before fighting. And I don't mean literally pushed! Secondly, nothing you do to those guys would probably get you out of a grappling situation, but they aren't the common bully or non-battle hardened street thug. I guarantee you that if I broke every bone in your hand with a real hard knuckle (not back knuckle) or ulna bone strike you would "loosen" your grip. I'm not small, am a little quick and no weakling. I've hardened my body for years unlike many grapplers that aren't really accustomed to guys who know how to punch without gloves. I would expect any decent karateka to be the same way!

The defenses I covered pretty much is all you have unless you've got a knife in your pocket or something. I know grappling fairly well, and have fought with a few bully wrestler types in my high school days. I've been grabbed from behind unknowingly, and clocked a guy with a good spinning elbow into a reversal, where I had the suckers back. Knocked him out cold. Period.

BTW, what's this fascination with Shotokan, I mean Kyokushin? It's no better than any other good karate style. You can train just like them if you want. Hard karate training is no cure all though. Recently K-1 champs were pitted against NHB cats and they got WAXED!!! K-1 has gotten everyones panties in a bind! Right now a 15 year old Shotokan guy is the up and coming kickboxing superstar. He's not Kyokushinkai, and a few of the champs even had TKD backgrounds. The individual does make a difference. Please stop jocking this one hard and potentially unhealthy style of karate. It's kind of embarrassing, hahaha!

Goju Man
11th August 2002, 03:58
Bryan, it's not fascination. These guys train much more realistic than most other karate schools. (not all) The K-1 guys get waxed in mma and nhb, ok, but 1) they got the nads to compete, 2) none of the other "deadly" styles of karate do it because "they have nothing to prove" or "my art is so much deeper than that" or "I'm not allowed to use knukite strikes". It's true that Caique and such like him would not fight just for the sake of it, but there are many experienced grapplers who will. If you say you can break every bone in a guys hand while in a bear hug, that's fine but who do you think you're fooling on here? It would be difficult to say the very least to do it in a free fighting posture, let alone in a bear hug. Bryan, you should bring some reality to the discussion and not fiction. Why do you call Kyokushin unhealthy? Because it means you may actually get hit in sparring class eh? No speculation on bunkai and playing the what if game in there my man. I can see why you think bjj is unhealthy, too many choke outs?

Goju Man
11th August 2002, 04:02
Bryan, by the by, I'll bet you your kyoshi that the up and coming Shotokan stylist is using anything but Shotokan brother.:D

Khahan
12th August 2002, 17:01
Originally posted by Goju Man
No speculation on bunkai and playing the what if game in there my man.
I agree Manny, in sparring and fighting, bunkai and speculation have no place. But unless you spend time with bunkai and speculation when you aren't fighting, I don't believe you will be well rounded.
Back to the original topic, slightly amended to give us specific scenarios:
You just miss the bus at 11pm (last one) and decide to cut through and alley and try to catch the bus on the next block.
Half way through the alley a man steps out and demands your money. You turn to walk the other way since he does not appear to have a weapon and there is some distance, but his partner is right there.
...
Me personally, I liked what I saw in The Perfect Weapon. ;)
Ok, maybe not that specifically. But the basic fact that you give some kind of distraction then don't stop moving.
Perhaps a brief physical engagement with the one who stepped out behind you, then get past him to get out of the alley.

Goju Man
12th August 2002, 20:23
My answer to that one is not to be in the alley. Before fighting, there is avoidance. ;)

Goju-Ryu
12th August 2002, 22:35
<b>Why do something half way?</b>

Goju Man you were refering to....?

Did you want to say that's only in Kyokushin, BJJ, Vale-Tudo that you train for realistic situations?

And what about Goju-Ryu's Irikumi?

Goju Man
12th August 2002, 23:19
Most styles try to train for reality but do not train realistically. The main example to that is the unrealistic self defense scenarios that have been around since I first started training. You have to train as close to reality as you can. The opponent cannot have a scripted reaction. It has to be spontaneous. The opponent has to be a resisting opponent. In a street confrontation, there will be no referree to stop the match or award a point. Judo, BJJ, Kyokushin and other Kyokushin offshoots all train this way.

Goju-Ryu
13th August 2002, 00:23
About the original post...

You can always try to show a relaxed attitude and when he less esxpected... BANG! Kick him and punch him real hard, and be sure he's really f**ked up...
Try to have a look at this site www.gutterfighting.org there are some interesting approaches to this kind of situations...

One time a friend of mine went to the shopping and was "interpeled" by a couple of guys asking him for money! What did he do?
He continued really calm and said to one of them: "Hey, you left your money fell on the ground..." As soon as the guy looks (it's a natural reaction) my friend punches him real hard and the other guy didn't continue there waiting to be punched too!

In this kind of situation one very important thing is your attitude!
Try to stay calm and not to show you're surprised and not knowing what to do, otherwise you'd make things less difficult to your adversary, remind yourself that it's him who his wrong and trying his luck...
This of course if they're not armed with pistols or "needles", if they're handling a gun probably you should not try your luck because you may end in an hospital or in a cemetery... :(

Goju-Ryu
13th August 2002, 00:48
http://www.gutterfighting.org/nutsbolts.html

Check out this page too! There you'll find an interesting approach to a death/life situation...

It has been focused here before that it doesn't need much to put someone really bad...

Tatsu
16th August 2002, 04:16
Originally posted by Goju Man
Bryan, it's not fascination. These guys train much more realistic than most other karate schools. (not all) The K-1 guys get waxed in mma and nhb, ok, but 1) they got the nads to compete, 2) none of the other "deadly" styles of karate do it because "they have nothing to prove" or "my art is so much deeper than that" or "I'm not allowed to use knukite strikes". It's true that Caique and such like him would not fight just for the sake of it, but there are many experienced grapplers who will. If you say you can break every bone in a guys hand while in a bear hug, that's fine but who do you think you're fooling on here? It would be difficult to say the very least to do it in a free fighting posture, let alone in a bear hug. Bryan, you should bring some reality to the discussion and not fiction. Why do you call Kyokushin unhealthy? Because it means you may actually get hit in sparring class eh? No speculation on bunkai and playing the what if game in there my man. I can see why you think bjj is unhealthy, too many choke outs?

I never said that BJJ was unhealthy. Helio is kinda' proof of that. As for KICKBOXING. Very superficial, and every good karateka I know can kickbox. So Shotokan kid is probably using a fighting sport style that is less involved and deep than what he learned in Shotokan. The transition from karate to kickboxing is no big deal. You really love some sport stuff, huh? Hahaha! Anyway, different strokes. I'll watch, but I'm usualy shaking my head. As for death strikes, no need. I'll just strike a sucker and see what happens when the dust settles. Hopefully, I'll never meet that rabid grappler that uses his medulla oblangata and not his higher brain to think. If I do, I can handle myself fo' sheezy.. Later, bro'!

hector gomez
16th August 2002, 20:49
Cmon Bryan,
qoute:AS FOR KICKBOXING VERY SUPERFICIAL,AND EVERY GOOD KARATEKA I KNOW CAN KICKBOX.

I know you are pulling my leg and you don't really believe this,even my very close personal friends that I respect as good traditional karate men realize that"NOT EVERYONE CAN KICKBOX"this is just common sense.

karate is practiced by people from all sorts of backgrounds from little kids to senior citizens,for many different reasons from self defense to character building.

Kickboxing is similar to boxing,only a certain type of individual can
excel at a high level of competition and very few would be willing to do it in a simple amatuer contest.


Just go back in time,in the history of sport karate in this country very few karate competitors were able to make the crossover to full contact karate(AKA KICKBOXING)but most anyone can compete in a karate
tournament.

Bryan,
I must admit you are the first person I have ever heard make such an assumpiton.

Hector

ps.Have you ever kickboxed in a amatuer contest?

Goju Man
16th August 2002, 22:35
Bryan, what have you been smokin'?? I would almost beleive that as a joke from anyone else. Given your track record, I know YOU really beleive this. It's very simple, you say you boxed, which probably means you hit the bag a dozen times, stepped in the ring to spar, got your bell rung and said this is crap. You trained bjj, you rolled around, got choked out, arm barred, and then said to yourself that if I had a knukite or the eye gouge he would have been dead meat. That is the most rediculous statement yet from you. If anyone (including you) actually beleive that, just go to a gym and find out. I'll bet you'll find either you are not a good karate man, or admit you're wrong. Either way, when you get in the ring, you won't last the first round. You'll either run out of gas, get knocked silly or both.:D

Keep dreamin' my man, it doesn't cost anything.