View Full Version : Daito ryu and Togakure ryu?

7th August 2002, 11:19

I came across a danish martialarts forum (http://www.martialarts.dk/vis_emne.asp?id=1160), where I found an interesting claim regarding a historic connection to Daito-ryu.

I have never before heard about this "connection", and hope that some of you would care to comment on it ;)

Here's my translation of the forum-post (I have not corrected any misspellings, but maybe introduced some new ones ;) )

Kim Johansen.

PS. The original post was submitted by a danish Jissen kobudo Jinenkan instructor.

Togakure ryu ninjutsu was founded by the tendai shugendo monks.
The Takeda family foundated Daito ryu aikijujutsu, og one of the takeda family members did study with those monks.
togakure ryus 32th grandmaster was also a sword-instructor for the togugawa shogunate in the beginning of the 1900th century.

The style goukko ryu koshijutsu was introduced in japan in the year 970 from china after the fall of tang-dynasty.
It was a kung-fu style also known as shaolin ken.
goukke ryu is the oldest documentet japanese style, that is mentioned in the official scrolls from year 1150.

The relatively unknown gyokushin ryu ninjutsu is a derivation of gyokku ryu koshijutsu...This style was widely spread after its publication in kisho and the takeda areas....
The 33th grandmaster takamatsu sensei was a close friend of kanu (founder of judo)
When kanu was a guest teacher at the Kodukan school a long time ago, it was gyokushin ninjutsu that he taught.

Hakkoryu jujutsu was founded by soke okuyama.
He studiet tenshin shinyo ryu with the above mentioned tendai shugendo monks, and also daito ryu aikijujutsu under sokaku takeda.
okuyama was an "uchidechi" and was asked to write the "makimono" scrolls of daito ryu aiki-jujutsu.

7th August 2002, 16:25
Hmm, all I can hear is the 'car guys' BO-OH-OH-OH-GUS! Sounds like a load of crap to me.

"The style goukko ryu koshijutsu was introduced in japan in the year 970 from china after the fall of tang-dynasty.
It was a kung-fu style also known as shaolin ken."

What is Goukko Ryu Koshijutsu? Maybe it's ancient Chinese belly dancing... Shaolin Ken? So belly dancing techniques are Shaolin sword movements? Hungh?

Kano Sensei taught gyokushin ninjutsu? Right, ok yeah, sure.

Correct me if I am wrong but I also thought that the oldest Japanese art (still in existance) was Kashima Shinryu, founded around 1450.

8th August 2002, 06:19
hello all,

As far as I know the oldest ryu still alive with all the bona fides to back it up is Chikubujima-ryu bojutsu founded in 1184 by Nanba Heiji Mitsunori, the current and 17th soke is Matsuura Yoshio Kanenobu. All this stuff about arts with 30 some odd sokes makes me wonder... in the course of a thousand years or so to have over 30 "soke"s that means the average life expectancy for a soke was 30 years or less... not good odds. Maybe they died in battle? Then how good were they? Were they cursed? History is written by the winners. I wouldn't study a school whose headmasters drop like flies. Ancient Japanese historians tended to try to stretch things back as far as they could and maybe (ok, most likely) that is the case here.

It would be very hard for Okuyama sensei to be an uchideshi in Daito-ryu under his teacher Sokaku because Sokaku didn't have a dojo. If memory serves Tenshin shin yo-ryu wasn't founded by Tendai monks (I could be wrong but there is a great article in the first Skoss book on this subject I'm to lazy to look for the book :) ).

Takumatsu was known to have taught at the Kodokan but Kano never taught any of Takumatsu schools in their entirety. I think Takumatsu taught some sutemi waza and that's it. It is very well documented that Kano taught Tenshin shin yo-ryu and was the head of Kito-ryu. Those two arts making the primary technical base of judo and Kodokan jujutsu.

As for Takeda members learning Togakure-ryu ninjutsu, while not impossible, isn't likely in recent times. It is true no one knows exactly what Sokaku Takeda practiced while he was on musha-shugyo there is little similarity between Ninpo and Daito-ryu (at least what I've seen of it). If one of Takeda's ancestors had studied Ninpo/ninjutsu I don't think it would have mattered much anyway because there is no documentation of Daito-ryu before Sokaku Takeda in the Meiji era except a very brief nondescript mention of a Daido-ryu (different kanji I think).

just some thoughts and a whole lot of opinion,


11th September 2003, 18:39

That sounds about right. I know that Takamatsu Sensei was in shock on how the judoka bent their backs the way they do. When studing taijutsu back should be straight, power comes from hips and legs. Most of that info sounds correct. At least if you study Ninpo. Samurai history is a little different than Ninpo.

Gyokko ryu is the oldest. Koto ryu, gikan ryu, gyokkoshin ryu, togakure ryu, etc... pretty much evolved from Gyokko ryu. To learn Budo taijutsu (ninjutsu) one needs a strong foundation in Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu (gyokko ryus sister art).

Let me know if you have any questions.

Gambatte kudasai,
Jahun Moayedzadeh

Jay Bell
11th September 2003, 18:55
Hmm, all I can hear is the 'car guys' BO-OH-OH-OH-GUS! Sounds like a load of crap to me.

Took the words right out of my mouth ;)

The only "connection" that I've heard regarding Takamatsu sensei and Kano sensei is that Takamatsu sensei apparently guest-instructed at the Kodokan.