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John Lindsey
11th August 2002, 00:07
I have always been told that crossing your arms as this fellow is doing is not proper when in a Japanese dojo. Yet, we see it more than often it seems. Maybe it makes people look tougher...

Doraggure-su
11th August 2002, 05:59
I've been told that crossing your arms like that shows an attitude of disrespect as well as it hide your hands and what may be in them.

Joseph Svinth
11th August 2002, 08:37
I don't know -- photos of the Seattle Dojo show Tokugoro Ito, Daisuke Sakai, and other instructors posing like that, inside the dojo, until well into the 1920s. So, if the Japanese are telling you this, then it is probably something developed during early Showa's fascist stage.

FWIW, I've seen photos of Jigoro Kano wearing shoes on the mat while demonstrating judo at the New York Dojo during the 1930s. There is also a photo taken at the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1906 that shows Yoshiaki Yamashita wearing patent leather shoes with hakama.

MarkF
11th August 2002, 14:36
It can show intent or an attitude, but mostly what was said about it when I was growing up was that it simply said you aren't doing anything and if otherwise there would be another's eridogi in your hands.

I saw a picture, I think a couple of days ago of a judoka from around the 1920s (I can't remember who it was, but well known to me) standing with his thumbs hooked onto his belt. That always kind of bothered me, for much the same reasons crossed arms is frowned upon.

I also had to remind myself that my first judo teacher came from military training, a part of it in Japan, a stay at the Kodokan and I think Okinawa as well, but mostly military. The classes were started and ended more like that, but it wasn't what most think when they think military. Since he used Japanese for Attention! and Bow!, he said that there were two positions for your hands: on a judogi or on your hips after an hour or so of randori.

But I've been to other dojo across the country and South of it and heard the same thing, but then there are those pictures, nothing really written in stone, except the occasional modern judoka in an article or book.
******

But to me, there is something to it, as I stood like that once when attending to the kids class where I was the teacher's aide let's say. Instead of getting on the ground and using my hands to correct a students stance an inch or two, I kept my arms folded as in the photo and moved his foot with mine when suddenly I heard this lound but very identifiable voice: "Don't kick like that. You a black belt now. Don't do that." Now this went on for several minutes and I probably bowed in apology and embarrassment for longer than that. This was my first teacher's teacher, and he was born in Japan.

I never forgot it, and occasionally catch myself, but that voice from the little man who flubbed English so badly at times it was difficult to understand, still rings in my ears.

Joe may be right about the history of it, but personally, I believe it does show attitude, my own at one time, and I don't like it today when I see my own students doing so. "Don't have anything to do? Either do I. Your not busy enough so lets dance." I may not feel like a hard round of randori anymore, but I'll sacrifice for a lesson learned.


Mark

Laotse
11th August 2002, 18:09
I have read comments by body language specialists that said arm-crossing is a sign of rejection, or at least lack of interest or involvement, in the subject at hand. So when I catch myself crossing my arms -- ever, in any situation -- I "correct" myself much as I correct my stance when I find it lacking. Indeed, I consider it to be part of my stance; when my arms are crossed, I am not relaxed and can not move quickly or correctly. So it is just as bad a stance as, say, leaning against a wall.

shadow42
12th August 2002, 04:49
OMy instructors reasoning for the no arms crossed rule, besides it being considered disrespectful, was that this is a potentially dangerous environment and you want to have your hands ready to deal with any sort of "thing" that may come flying in your direction, like a foot or a sword or whatnot. more of a saftey thing than anything else.

12th August 2002, 07:43
John,

You are right it is.
However I see many Japanese sensei/masters here do that plus hook their thumbs in their belt as if to say "looky here see the belt......I am in charge".

It happens everywhere.I :rolleyes:

kabutoki
12th August 2002, 13:22
hello !
i canīt speak for the dojo, but during a class at university a very young and open minded teacher ,not very concerned about the "traditional pattern of teacher-student relation" ,would tell one his sutdents to stop immediatly sitting like that. he said it would be a sign of great disrespect.

karsten

HinodeBuddha
16th August 2002, 02:11
I was always told that folding your arms as well as having your hands upon your hips, was disrespectful because it meant that, as the individual with the folded arms or hands on hips, the class or instructor had nothing to offer you. It is like an open challenge to the sensei, a slap in the face.

I have seen even senior students and instructors do these things though. Maybe out of ignorance or for the above reason.

I don't know.

Joseph Svinth
16th August 2002, 02:54
If this works, the photo in the middle shows a Japanese judo 4-dan named Taku, in 1913. (Taku is dressed in formal attire on the right; the man on the left is Mifune.) The source is E.J. Harrison's Fighting Spirit of Japan.

Crossing the arms may have all the body language stated, but it is a traditional Japanese stance associated with wrestlers.

Walker
16th August 2002, 07:53
Plus crossing your arms makes the biceps look cool! :D

Glad to see the pics being put to good use.

PeteBoyes
16th August 2002, 08:52
I am used to the view expressed above by HinodeBuddha - it's a challenge. There is one teacher at a club I attend who says "Do you want a fight ?" when he catches someone with their arms folded. For some reason no one has ever said "Yeah!" :D

One of my pet peeves is not the folded arms but the 'lop-sided' stance where not only does the student have their hands on their hips but all their weight is on one leg with the other bent, or worse crossed over in front of their supporting leg. I had to learn Shizentai (natural posture) even before I learnt Ukemi.

Yamantaka
17th August 2002, 12:41
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
If this works, the photo in the middle shows a Japanese judo 4-dan named Taku, in 1913. (Taku is dressed in formal attire on the right; the man on the left is Mifune.) The source is E.J. Harrison's Fighting Spirit of Japan.
Crossing the arms may have all the body language stated, but it is a traditional Japanese stance associated with wrestlers.

YAMANTAKA : Joe San,

I don't have Harrison's book. But your information is very interesting to me. I was looking for a famous japanese judoka named something like TOKU SANPO or SANPO TOKU, active at that time. Do you know the complete name of this TAKU?
Very interested
Ubaldo

Joseph Svinth
20th August 2002, 12:02
All I have is the 1982 Overlook Press version (of the 1955 revised edition). (The photos were sent to me.)

Anyway, in the Overlook Press version, I don't see anything on Taku in it. Sorry.

Still, if you don't own a copy of the Overlook Press version, you're wrong. It's only $12 or thereabouts in paperback, and a classic.

Yamantaka
21st August 2002, 12:50
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Still, if you don't own a copy of the Overlook Press version, you're wrong. It's only $12 or thereabouts in paperback, and a classic.

YAMANTAKA : I'll get one. On the meantime, does MARK F. has anything to say about TOKU SANPO (or SANPO TOKU or TAKU)?
Hello, Mark???
Best

David T Anderson
21st August 2002, 18:24
Originally posted by HinodeBuddha
I was always told that folding your arms as well as having your hands upon your hips, was disrespectful ...It is like an open challenge to the sensei, a slap in the face.

I have seen even senior students and instructors do these things though. Maybe out of ignorance or for the above reason.

I don't know.

I know I do the 'hands on hips' thing fairly often, mainly because it holds my sweaty gi shirt away from my body and allows the air to circulate underneath. I've never been called on it by anybody at my dojo. I'll be more careful elsewhere, perhaps...

rebelfilms
21st January 2003, 17:36
Interesting! At the Aikido dojo where i go, its 15 pressups if youre caught with your arms folded. The first time i transgressed and was yelled at scared me enough not to do it again:D but i never thought to ask WHY:mad:
ah well

Usagi
22nd January 2003, 02:51
Originally posted by rebelfilms
Interesting! At the Aikido dojo where i go, its 15 pressups if youre caught with your arms folded. The first time i transgressed and was yelled at scared me enough not to do it again:D but i never thought to ask WHY:mad:
ah well

Are you training under Isoyama SenSei?

He doesn't like people with arms crossed in his classes...

In Brazil he said that crossed arms had something to do with energy :)

(i didn't buy it).

Tripitaka of AA
8th February 2004, 15:01
In Shorinji Kempo, we have to assume a standing position called Kesshu Gamae. The hands are clasped lightly left over right, just below waist level, in front of the obi. There are all sorts of explanations, as to why it should be... and woe betide anyone who slips back into non-Dojo mode and starts crossing arms or slouching. The most simple explanation is that it shows you are listening atentively, focussed on yourself and your surroundings, not daydreaming. It also is a "first position" from which you can adopt any chosen fighting kamae, being both well-balanced and upright.

It does make for some rather uncomfortable-looking group photos though ;), where everyone is unsure whether the pose requires Dojo, or non-Dojo etiquette.

Compare this neat, happy bunch;

http://www.bskf.org/projects/hombu01/pics/hombu11.jpg

with this, slightly less comfortable crew;

http://www.bskf.org/projects/japan/pics/japan18.jpg

Tripitaka of AA
8th February 2004, 15:04
Referring back to earlier comments about photographs of Masters with inappropriate footwear. From my pictures above it can be seen that choice of footwear suitable for use with a dogi, is still a problem... as is finding the right sized Yukata or sandals in a Ryuokan.

Chuck.Gordon
8th February 2004, 17:50
Might we be putting a little too much concern on some really minor things?

I'm no Joe Svinth, but I've seen many budo folks of varying rank and experience (not the same thing, by the way) standing with folded arms, and seen folks doing very good budo wearing deck shoes, flip-flops and trainers.

I suspect, but cannot confirm that the prejudice against folded arms MIGHT come from the military experience of many of the earlier teachers in the West rather than from some Japanese prejudice against the posture.

We were taught in basic training not to put hands in pockets, coss arms or slouch. We were taught to stand in parade rest, attention or at ease.

In our system of budo, we don't worry much about postures when at leisure, but there's some apocryphal kuden about how to arrange trousers when using the toilet, etc.

One of my old XOs explained:

If you see the old man (our commander) standing at ease, everything's hunky dory.
If he's got his arms crossed, he's not happy, but not so bad he's gonna make a scene.
If he's got hands on hips, look out.

Dunno.

I've seen senior Japanese folks standing around with crossed arms, and smiling, joking and generally being relaxed.

I suspect it's kinda like so many other budo myths ... exactly that.

Folks who know way more than I do -- Joe, Karl, Colin -- your thoughts?

Chuck

Joseph Svinth
9th February 2004, 07:29
Chuck --

Before about 1930 or so, photos of judoka and karateka often showed dan-ranked individuals with arms crossed. I have seen formal portraits (Tokugoro Ito, for one), group pictures in which the young guys are rolling and sensei is standing arms crossed (Seattle Dojo, 1920), and group photos where everyone is looking at the camera (an early university karate group photo, so probably 1928 or so). Afterwards, it becomes less common. Thus, the changing attitudes toward proper stance very easily could have something to do with the increasing militarization of Showa Japan.

The shoes, though, do have always been a problem. Thus, a photo of Yamashita Yoshitsugu shows him wearing hakama and patent leather oxfords at the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1906, and a separate photo from about 1936 shows the kids at a a Portland, Oregon tournament of dressed in judogi and leather oxfords. My guess is that the Japanese and Japanese Americans were not particularly self-conscious. Instead, they just wore whatever they had on. Why? Because in those days, most of them hadn't gotten into the commodified recreation that so exemplifies postwar society. A useful (albeit dry) article about this change, in an American setting, is "Consuming brotherhood: men's culture, style and recreation as consumer culture, 1880-1930," Journal of Social History, Summer, 1998, by Mark A. Swiencicki. http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2005/n4_v31/20870387/p1/article.jhtml?term=

QUOTE

I examine the 1890 U.S. Census of Manufacturers to estimate the value of each sex's personal consumption of individual and recreational goods. My analysis suggests that the monetary value of men's consumption may have been about twice as large as women's. To address the second question, I focus on how men of 1880-1930 spent their leisure time outside of the house and the nature of the goods consumed there. I find that men actively incorporated lavish consumption and consumerism into their daily lives via banquets, drinking parties, fraternities, well-equipped men's clubs and sporting activities, and by visiting male-only brothels, saloons, dime museums, pool halls, variety theaters and minstrelsy shows. Finally, I theorize how scholars came to view consumption as "feminine," and why the evidence of past male consumption that has been uncovered by labor and men's historians has not been integrated into the standard literature on the intersection of gender and consumerism...

Louise More's 1907 study of the spending habits of 200 working-class families in New York City from 1903-5 indicates that the lion's share of most families' disposable income went to husbands. Using More's figures, it would appear that about 11 percent of the average working family's disposable income went to the husband's drinking, while another 16 percent was reserved for his personal spending money.(24) Thus working-class men appear to have spent about 27 percent of their family's disposable income on drinking and socializing alone, and even more if one includes the money spent on lodge and benefit society dues ($5-$120 per family annually).(25)

END QUOTE

Marc Coppens
9th February 2004, 10:59
Dear users,

This is what Tanemura sensei told me about crossing arms ;
It is a mark of the headmaster. It is considered unpolite when a lower ranking student is crossing his arms in the dojo and even outside when in the presence of the headmaster.
Once during a meal in a restaurant I was sitting some places away from Tanemura sensei at the same table. Being overexhausted I nearly fell asleep while listening to him. My arms where crossed in front of me and leaning on the table to suport more or less my body. I quickly received the remark from Tanemura sensei that this was not done.

Sincerely

Hissho
10th February 2004, 15:11
Serge Mol's jujutsu book shows a period photograph of the Shindo Rokugo ryu in which EVERYONE has their arms crossed.

Tripitaka of AA
10th February 2004, 16:20
A thought about shoes in photographs.

My wife and her friends agree that there are three things from Japan that they'd like to keep to, alhough they now live abroad. One is bathing in clean water (instead of sitting in a puddle filled with the dirt that you just washed off like the Westerners do), another is washing dishes and cutlery in running water (instead of a dirty puddle filled with the dirt that you just washed off like the Westerners do)... the third and most important is to take off the shoes at the door and keep a proper Genkan in operation.

When in a situation where some doubt exists over the cleanliness of the floor, I suspect that many Japanese will choose to keep their shoes on. In some of the photographs mentioned, the location is outside Japan. Perhaps the subjects were simply trying to adapt to Western standards, or maybe disrusted the floor surface for barefoot work.

Budoka 34
10th February 2004, 16:39
In my first school if you were caught leaning with your hands on your hips you'd either get swept to the floor or a quick shinai strike to the legs and that was the kids class!
You never crossed your arms as that posture was reserved for the Sensei and you'd end up sparring the black belts or doing push ups til the cows came home.

In my current school it is considered rude to put your hands on the floor or lean back while sitting, cross your arms while sitting or standing, leaning against anything with your hands on your hips, but Shihan explains it as rude and stupid as you can not possible defend yourself quickly from these positions.;)

:smilejapa