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Todd Schweinhart
13th August 2000, 06:32
Hello all,
I am writing to question the legitimacy of the mystical side of koryu traditions. Most koryu have things such as kuji, fudo kanashibari, kiaijutsu, toatejutsu, etc. I am simply curious as to what other koryu practitioners have experienced in regards to the more "mystical" side of bujutsu. Has anyone experienced anything of this sort? There are always stories of these extraordinary things from various ryu and I thought maybe someone would like to share an event of their own experience. Another reason that I have posted this unusual question is that I have recently noticed a lot of partial art (uh, I meant martial art) practitioners have been claiming these phenomenal "spoon bending powers" and thought an inquiry would be interesting. I must admit that I am mostly interested in the koryu based "yurushi waza" than I am parlor majic. I have been told that some of these genjutsu type tricks were sometimes used in the good ole days to make extra funds when the students weren't pooring in. Any thoughts or comments on any of this?
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

Bob Steinkraus
24th August 2000, 17:30
Not heard of that one. At least not in connection with martial arts.

Spoon bending can be accomplished thru sleight of hand. Go to the local magic store, buy the trick, and presto! you are Uri Geller.

Let's just say I am of a skeptical bent and leave it at that. I too have heard many of the dojo stories, but not yet come across any feat that cannot be explained thru good old Western physics, psychology, or just plain BS.

This would include the unliftable uke, unbendable arm of aikido, delayed death touch that some ch'uan-fa types claim, and so forth.

Best rule of thumb is believe half of what you see, a tenth of what you read, and nothing of what you hear.

I have seen people accomplish some pretty amazing things, but I prefer them to A) do it in front of me (none of this 'My sensei told me his instructor saw some one who could...' whatever) B) not get shy when I start asking questions or taking notes.

This is just my opinion and subject to change without notice. Your mileage may vary.

BrianV
24th August 2000, 17:48
Here,Here!!

Well said Bob!

Tetsutaka
24th August 2000, 18:08
You might have had a chance with getting an answer, if you had not interjected a host of opinion and innuendo within the original post.

The fact that you mention study of Shingon and/or Mikkyo Bhuddism, Shinto, and/or Taoism [inyodo] in the same breath with parlor tricks suggests either your question [and therefore the ability to understand an answer] lacks depth, or that your position is already settled within yourself so discussion is pointless.

Also, this topic is one that - in discussing its tenets - falls further away from the essense of the experience as more words are added.

Basically, if you are not willing to "get in there" adn experience it firsthand, then there's not much chance that it will have any meaning for you. I can tell you this because I have gone through the same process.

One last thing - I believe the "spoon bending" reference was an allusion to a scene in the movie - "The Matrix" - which registered a callback for the main character. Needless to say, it was a cool movie scene, but it applies to real spiritual pursuit about as much as ninja moveis apply to true ninpo.

Good luck in your search,

Todd Schweinhart
25th August 2000, 07:10
Mr. Steinkraus,
Those are exactly the types of things that I was talking about. I always try to stay neutral on all viewpoints but I tend to agree with you. I was honestly just curious as to what type of conversations this would arouse. I studied majic and sleight of hand when I was younger and had learned a lot of those tricks. When I became interested in Budo I could see some of the same performances during embu and such. As you mentioned most can be explained in a very basic manner if you only care to see the truth. To all that think you can actually bend a spoon, under scientific observation (and no, I am not referring to the Matrix), there is a million dollar challenge offered by a research group. You do it and it is all yours. Any takers?
Mr. Haynes,
Sorry that I do not possess the in depth knowledge that you refer to in your post. The reason that I included these systems is that a majority of Koryu have them intertwined within the deeper levels of study. If you read my post more closely you will see that I place the term spoon bending inside " " to show what I think of the unbendable arm type majic. Some people are trying to show these types of "parlor tricks" as martial mastery. It's like people baking bricks to make them break easier. I am trying to seperate the partial art (and I didn't misspell it) tricks from the mikkyo based koryu "hiden waza" in my question. Within these ryu they too have various "tricks" that are actually associated with something called Kuji goshin ho. Of course, I am sure you are also aware of this subject and its slight relation with a few of the systems mentioned. However, having the low level of depth in my understanding and in my questioning...I asked anyway. Now back to the subject. Have you ever experienced anything similar to this? BTW, Mr. Haynes, what school do you study?
I am actually referring to more esoteric Mikkyo when I mention certain tricks, or more specifically the kuji or juji.
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

MarkF
25th August 2000, 11:42
I studied sleight with one of, if not the greatest sleight artists ever, and Todd should recognize the name: Dai Vernon. I also met one "Amazing" Randy who is the one who now carries, or his "company" carries a policy, promising anyone who could prove Uri-Gellar or martial arts-type spoon-bending, etc. of any kind. Today, I think it is worth 100,000? It was 10,000 in the sixties and seventies. Well, there has never been a winner, Gellar was outed on the Tonight show by one Johnny Carson, but Randy had some "tricks" of his own. Before allowing anyone to do what they do, he insisted on certain conditions of his making, which he said anyone who could do these things could do them under certain conditions.

Now, I am skeptic number one, but I also can see a guy who is not willing to part with a dime, as well. The Amazing One was, at best, a mediocre prestidigitator, and specialized in "close-up" which are tricks which require only a decent patter to misdirect the audience. Hell, I can do that in my judo classes, never mind close-up "magic." Misdirection is the basis of all martial arts and that isn't new. Dai vernon might have been the exception, seeing how he was always able to extricate himself from the drunk tank, and never be convicted, but that is a disregard for someone I cherished. He passed away about two year ago at the age of 99. His apprentices today are well known and too long to list or remember here. There is magic, I hope, as if there isn't, what are you doing in the first place? Misdirecting someone to put on a left sided o soto gari so well that uke has no idea what happened, is magic, isn't it?

BTW: Bob, go get 'em. Just because we disagree on one type of "magic" is no reason not to believe what we do isn't magic.

szczepan
25th August 2000, 15:49
Well this will be not exactly about bujutsu, anyway...
My wife practice about 15 years Aikido(no, no Ki Society) and as you know, Aikido develop among others, empathy and spontaneous reactions. This morning, when she drove back from night shift on the highway, they crushed concrete on the viaduct above highway. She saw it a long way off, and had a thought “A concrete will fall on my head”. When she approached close, she was directly under viaduct so couldn’t see what happens above, she saw a worker charged of security, who gave her signal to go forward. So she accelerated a bit and this time very clear a thought again : “A concrete will fall on my head”. So without hesitation she completely stopped a car. In the same moment a big piece of concrete fall down 1 ft before her car.
A face of worker was white from fear, but she was so happy, she just send him a big smile.
Was it trick? – no. Was it special power developed during the years of practice – not sure, possibly. Can she repeat it for your investigation?......hm....I hope it will be unnecessary.

regardz

AST
26th August 2000, 19:49
I have a question.

By James Randi's definition what constituites a paranormal demonstration. I read an article where scientists hooked a Tibetan monk up to monitors and were able to record an almost 60% reduction in body metabolism. There has also been scientific recordings of Yogis controlling their respiration, heartbeat, body temperature etc.

Are these not good enough, are they too mundane to be considered as paranormal phenomenon. Its just that I've listened to Randi on radio interviews and he just comes across as a scientific zealot who would carve out his own eyes rather than admit defeat. To me he is to biased to be considered as a serious attempt at understanding these phenomena.


Adrian Teixeira

Shinobi
27th August 2000, 00:34
Originally posted by AST

By James Randi's definition what constituites a paranormal demonstration. I read an article where scientists hooked a Tibetan monk up to monitors and were able to record an almost 60% reduction in body metabolism. There has also been scientific recordings of Yogis controlling their respiration, heartbeat, body temperature etc.

Adrian Teixeira


Adrian,

I have on video from the Discovery Channel or PBS from the very early 90's a show about "power of the mind" and such. They have a whole segment on what you mention about the monks. In Tibet, they go into a below freezing room, dipped towels in buckets of ice water, wrapped themselves with the towels, within 5 mins of meditation, the towels began to steam off of them. Next, the scientists hooked up electrodes to one monk, and could see threw spectrum analysis his body temputure rise or drop when he wanted it to. I'll have to watch it again and take notes ;)

AST
27th August 2000, 11:40
Eric


Exactly one of the things I was talking about. The Tibetan Ta-mo (sp?) meditations that allow them to survive freezing temperatures with minimal clothing.

Apparently the final exam is to spend a night high in the Himalaya's, naked, alongside a river, and to have fellow monks drape soaked robes around you. The idea is to then use body heat to dry the robes and not die of hypothermia.
Some monks can apparently dry as many as 40 robes in an evening.

If this does not constiuite paranormal ability then what the hell does?

Adrian Teixeira

Tetsutaka
28th August 2000, 02:59
Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
I am writing to question the legitimacy of the mystical side of koryu traditions.
I am actually referring to more esoteric Mikkyo when I mention certain tricks, or more specifically the kuji or juji.

Actually, you haven't been "certain" at all. Can you site specific things within the kuji-in or kuji-kiri of Mikkyo Bhuddism that qualifies as a trick? Is there a particular demonstration that you can site? Are there specific demonstrations performed by particular individuals that you would like to discuss?

This thread has shifted to things that people can actually discuss, which IMHO does not qualify as relating to koryu. Don't you think it's time to move this to the General E-budo forum?

Also, there is no such thing as "esoteric Mikkyo". There is only Mikkyo. For there to be an "esoteric Mikkyo", there would need to be an "exoteric Mikkyo". If there is such a thing, then I will be happy to stand corrected.

Todd Schweinhart
28th August 2000, 06:02
Mr. Haynes,
You listed Mikkyo "bHuddism" so you must know what Mikkyo translates to in nihongo, right. I believe some people just refer to it as esoteric since it really doesn't deal with mainstream buddhism. I really wasn't asking you to start a debate about the subject, just wanted some positive feedback from people who train in koryu that would know what I was talking about.
You still didn't answer what Ryu you train in...
Could you tell us a little more about Kuji in and Kuji kiri so that we could better understand what you are trying to say. Could you give an example of something that isn't a trick? Since you now are training with Tanemura sensei maybe you could add some positive feedback as to your experiences during training.
The first 3 or 4 sentences of my original post are relating to the koryu based Mikkyo. Therefore, I was trying to spark a positive discussion on this side of Koryu bujutsu. I have seen someone perform fudo kanashibari, bo yose and various ways to use kuji in and kuji kiri. These types of things are listed in the Kukishin Ryu and the various branches of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Would anyone care to give some positive feedback or to discuss this subject on the forum?
Best,
Todd Schweinhart

Richard A Tolson
28th August 2000, 06:29
Tod,
I am not a koryu practitioner, but I can testify that kiaijutsu (spirit shout art) certainly works, but not for any mystical reasons. It is based simply on human psychology and the "fight or flight responce".

Todd Schweinhart
28th August 2000, 06:45
Mr. Tolson,
Thanks for your productive post. This is one of the things I was talking about and is definately related to koryu. I would agree that it seems to be a thing of psychology. This may also be true of fudo kanashibari. Could it be a more advanced way to instantly hypnotize a person and make them immovalbe? I have seen good friends of mine do some outrageous things while under hypnosis at the local comedy club and they just didn't believe me when I told them. It would be an interesting skill to have a warrior coming at you with sword drawn and as he draws near you clear your throat and he immediately has the urge to do the funky chicken?
Thanks again,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Tetsutaka
28th August 2000, 14:52
Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Mr. Haynes,
You listed Mikkyo "bHuddism" so you must know what Mikkyo translates to in nihongo, right. I believe some people just refer to it as esoteric since it really doesn't deal with mainstream buddhism. I really wasn't asking you to start a debate about the subject, just wanted some positive feedback from people who train in koryu that would know what I was talking about.

You didn't refer to "esoteric Bhuddism", but rather "esoteric Mikkyo". I stand by my point. Also, you must understand that "esoteric" can have pejorative connotation as well, so it is to be used carefully.

Debate is critical, as it is the only way to define what is being discussed. A comparative metaphor: if you are asking for information on the McDonald's Big Mac Special Sauce recipe as it compares to 19th century Haute Cuisine from the Provence region of France, then that begs the question: why?

You must have some basis by which those two things are connected, and I believe that they are not. That is the foundation of a debate that must take place before any meaningful idea is exchanged.


Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
You still didn't answer what Ryu you train in...

You are correct. I have not. I don't think I need to in order to make these most basic points. I am suggesting that there be a bit more care, reservation, intellectual honesty, and sincerity in your post. Those attributes will get you much farther than where you are now.


Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Could you tell us a little more about Kuji in and Kuji kiri so that we could better understand what you are trying to say.

I can only offer generalities, hypothetical information, as it were. I understand that there is a good article in Furyu Online that covers many of the topics you seem to have interest in. I would recommend it, but am having difficulty getting their URL to respond. :(


Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Could you give an example of something that isn't a trick? Since you now are training with Tanemura sensei maybe you could add some positive feedback as to your experiences during training.

No, I cannot give you anything that would satisfy your curiosity. That is because my experiences are mine, and they are special to me. They are not a casual thing. I'm sorry, but the discussion I would have on these matters would have to be with people that I know better, and that know me well. I don't think this situation qualifies in either regard.


Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
The first 3 or 4 sentences of my original post are relating to the koryu based Mikkyo. Therefore, I was trying to spark a positive discussion on this side of Koryu bujutsu. I have seen someone perform fudo kanashibari, bo yose and various ways to use kuji in and kuji kiri.

Who was this person, and where and when was the demonstration?


Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
These types of things are listed in the Kukishin Ryu and the various branches of the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Would anyone care to give some positive feedback or to discuss this subject on the forum?

Yes. Perhaps you could ask in any of the Takamatsuden forums. But - be forewarned - the old addage applies: "Those who know don't talk - and those who talk don't know."

My recommendation to you would to be to find a teacher who is willing to teach you these things - and strive for the capability of understanding it as it comes to you. Timing is everything ;)

Incidently, someone mentioned a kiai that can forestall an attack as a "flinch" reaction. That is not the same as a kiai that destroys a persons will to fight. Just a thought for you to ponder...

Best of luck in your search,

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-28-2000 at 01:08 PM]

Todd Schweinhart
28th August 2000, 21:18
By Mr. Houston "the man" Hanes
"who was this person, where, when?"
I will use your mysterious answer on this one...Sorry, but this information is from my private experiences, and I don't care to share them with someone in which I don't know, they are only for me...blah, blah, blah...listen to me...I am Houston Haynes...Just kidding...This is getting kind of fun...I should find a teacher since I am so lost and am only "curious" about the bujutsu related kuji and juji. You have got to be kidding!
Everyone in bujutsu should no that Mr. Haynes is the authority on koryu bujutsu and that the kuji in, kuji kiri or juji used in these ryu doesn't have any relation to Mikkyo buddhism...OK, yeah right. Where did you learn this?
Lets all be polite and play nice with each other.
Does anyone have any positive feedback, that you CAN share with the group?
Todd "the lost man" Schweinhart

Tetsutaka
28th August 2000, 21:38
Viewing a demonstration is one thing, relaying experiences in a teacher-student exchange is different. It is different in may contexts - which you seem to not understand.

It is possible that the attitude that barely lies beneath the surface in your original post is now exposed. That you have brought it to the surface in this way might explain the dirth of cogent appellation in the following responses.

Consider this my last attempt of explanation as to why it is that no one has given you any real information about spiritual practice in koryu...

Richard A Tolson
29th August 2000, 04:26
Houston,
You misquoted me. I did not use the term "flinch reaction", nor is that what I meant.
I'm sure it was an honest mistake on your part :).

Tetsutaka
29th August 2000, 12:14
Hey Richard,

Yep, you're right. I misquoted you.

However, I think the "fight or flight respon[s]e" is only part of the picture. If that works for you, then more power to you.

It reminds me of something that one of my computer science professors said to me, "Just because you can't measure it - doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That is not the fault of the thing you're trying to measure - but maybe the fault of your tool - or more likely your poor use of the tool itself."

All the best,

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 06:18 AM]

yamatodamashii
29th August 2000, 12:46
Actually, I think it's rather fortunate for everybody that hypnosis does not and CAN not be applied like that.

I actually have a question along this topic line, if everyone will excuse my ignorance; I am as big on debunking qi gong frauds as anybody, but when I was in my early 20's (not that long ago) I studied under a guy who did the "heavy/light" thing a lot. I weighed about 170, he weighed about 220. I try to pick him up the first time, no prob--I can even hold him a while. Second time, no go. Not even BUDGING him, with another guy lifting on each arm.

Recently I've been hearing that this is bogus, it's all in the way they position their feet... Ummm--220 is 220, no matter how you stand, right? I mean, I was lifting straight up?

Tetsutaka
29th August 2000, 13:16
Perhaps you could ask this question in the general forum.

Joseph Svinth
29th August 2000, 13:24
Johnny Coulon, who weighed about 117 pounds, did the heavy trick for maybe fifty years. Anyway, it has to do with leverage, and how he (not you) places his hands. I think Robert W. Smith described how Coulon did the trick someplace, probably in Gilbey II.

Richard A Tolson
29th August 2000, 16:34
Houston,
Agreed! Unfortunately, sometimes its hard to find the right words, if they exist, to explain some phenomenon. So I chose to use a partial explanation that would at least point someone to a beginning understanding of kiaijutsu. :)

Yojimbo558
30th August 2000, 00:49
Hi Jason,

So the mysterious now you can lift me, now you can't has once again reared its head!

Yes 220 lbs is 220 lbs, but the person is not linking them selves up to the earth or anything mysterious like that, he's simply compensating with his posture.

Example: If you stand behind me, put me in a bear hug and lift, you'll take me right off the ground just like you did to the other guy.

Now here's the trick, as you get ready to lift he moves his leg or legs between your feet ( if your standing in a horse stance or simply have your feet spaced you won't even notice ).

This is where your leverage has changed, because his body is no longer entirely in front of you, but partially underneath towards your third point. This is what makes them appear to suddenly become heavy and why you couldn't lift him or me...unless you forced us to change our posture or you changed yours.

There's tons of tricks...not that they don't have uses mind you: If I were to grab you in the manner I described and were to attempt some type of back supplex, you could do this counter to prevent someone from dropping you on your head, neck, or back.

Hope this helps,

Eric Bookin

Tetsutaka
30th August 2000, 03:43
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
Houston,
Agreed! Unfortunately, sometimes its hard to find the right words, if they exist, to explain some phenomenon. So I chose to use a partial explanation that would at least point someone to a beginning understanding of kiaijutsu. :)

Hi Richard,
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was mislead by your post:
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
I can testify that kiaijutsu (spirit shout art) certainly works, but not for any mystical reasons. It is based simply on human psychology and the "fight or flight responce".
I'm sure that I simply made a mistake and misread what your wrote originally. My apologies. Incidently, I was having a private conversation with someone about this subject, and it reminded me of a concept from western thought that seems apt to the more serious side of this discussion - the term is "gestalt":

a structure, configuration, or pattern of physical, biological, or psychological phenomena so integrated as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation of its parts

Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

It's interesting that today's fashion of western reductionism ignores this seemingly important feature of critical thinking. Does anyone here have any ability to shed light on "gestalt" - specifically its initial influence and subsequent "falling out of favor" in the lexicon of western science?

Yours in ninpo spirit,

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 09:56 PM]

Joseph Svinth
30th August 2000, 04:13
Gestalt refers to 19th and 20th century German psychological theories. The word entered English as "Gestalt psychology" in 1924, and in general refers to a wholistic perspective in which it is believed that one cannot define a person, place, or thing simply by stacking up its parts.

If you want more detail in bigger words, then how is this?

http://www.enabling.org/ia/gestalt/gerhards/gtax1.html#kap2

"Gestalt theory is a broadly interdisciplinary general theory which provides a framework for a wide variety of psychological phenomena, processes, and applications. Human beings are viewed as open systems in active interaction with their environment. It is especially suited for the understanding of order and structure in psychological events, and has its origins in some orientations of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Ernst Mach, and particularly of Christian von Ehrenfels and the research work of Max Wertheimer, Wolfgang Köhler, Kurt Koffka, and Kurt Lewin, who opposed the elementistic approach to psychological events, associationism, behaviorism, and to psychoanalysis. The coming to power of national socialism substantially interrupted the fruitful scientific development of Gestalt theory in the German-speaking world; Koffka, Wertheimer, Köhler and Lewin emigrated, or were forced to flee, to the United States."

There are another 231,000 sites you can search if you are interested.

Richard A Tolson
30th August 2000, 05:10
Houston,
No problem :).
However, I do stand by my original statement that there is nothing "mystical" about it. It can be studied and explained in logical, scientific terms. In other words there is no "spiritual" or "magic" means to its effect.

Tetsutaka
30th August 2000, 12:29
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
In other words there is no "spiritual" or "magic" means to its effect.

Your lumping of "spiritual" and "magic" seems to betray a bit of misunderstanding of the eastern concept of "spiritual". Most folks today make the mistake of defining "spiritual" as anything in human experience that cannot be explained by science. Therefore they also equate it to "magic". That is not correct, in my opinion.

Mr Svinth,

I knew I could count on you to come in and bring a house full of goodies with you. ;) Thanks.

yamatodamashii
30th August 2000, 17:18
Now, here's the thing...
1) I wasn't in any martial arts stance.
2) I put my hands where I wanted
3) He never moved any part of his body between lifts, except to nod his head.
4) He was Michael Echanis' best student (i.e., not a lot of time wasted on silly tricks)
5) I'd trust this man with my life, even if I don't study under him anymore.

No, I don't have proof of 1-3, but I'm sure that Lee Joo Bang will back me up on #4 ('cuz I asked him once).

Richard A Tolson
31st August 2000, 07:29
Houston,
I was actually using a Western paradigm for the concepts of "spiritual" and "magic", since it seems most E-Budo members have a western rather than eastern background.
Isn't it funny how words get in the way of intelligent conversations? :) If only I were a telepath.

Tetsutaka
31st August 2000, 10:44
Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
I was actually using a Western paradigm for the concepts of "spiritual" and "magic", since it seems most E-Budo members have a western rather than eastern background.

This is strange to me, Richard. You are making a point, but not understanding its implications. It is precisely that the western paradigm is hubristic, or at least inapropriate to the serious side of this topic, that I have based my points. You seem to not be bothered by that. The very fact that we are here in "Koryu: History and Traditions" suggests that the west still falls short in many areas.

If scientific method can only explain the simpler levels of human response [as you admitted in an earlier post], particularly in the context of the serious side of this subject, does that mean we must abandon the eastern perspective required to fully grasp these concepts, and "worship at western science's door"? I don't think so. In fact I think it's clear in my posts that I believe it to be counterproductive in this case.

It is my understanding that koryu practice must be taken as a whole. It is not a buffet where you can pick and choose. Those masters that have created gendai arts from koryu have done that and seen fit to leave some aspects behind to emphasize others in the new form they create. That is fine to do, as they have earned the right to make the choice by earning menkyo in one or more koryu arts, then taking all of the arts' aspects into account - firsthand.

I don't think they went to college for a psychology degree in order to complete their art, though. ;)

yamatodamashii
31st August 2000, 11:17
I've spent entire threads trying to argue this one out (under various guises). I wish you luck.

Tetsutaka
31st August 2000, 11:41
Originally posted by yamatodamashii
I've spent entire threads trying to argue this one out (under various guises). I wish you luck.

Thanks! I think I'm going to give in at this point... ;)

BTW, it is more than a bit ironic to me that Richard and I would have been in complete agreement several years ago. But I guess there are seldom few out there that would fully appreciate the irony of that.

Yours in ninpo spirit,

G. Jetter
6th September 2000, 18:31
I recently went to confession and received absolution for my sins. Funny, but I feel a whole lot better.

I wonder if the priest was really channeling the forgiving essence of the divine or if it was all just in my own head?

Just a thought...

Richard A Tolson
7th September 2000, 07:28
Houston,
Perhaps I am biased. OK, yes I am biased. Tanaka Sensei, my instructor, a Japanese man born and educated in Japan summed up the "spiritual" teachings found in koryu and Japanese religious/philosophical practices as a whole in two words: "superstitious nonsense". He was the one who taught me to analyze the supposedly mystical side of martial arts in scientific terms. After 32 years of martial arts practice I have never yet seen anything the could not be explained in Western scientific terms.
Certainly we will still continue to disagree. That's OK with me. We must each follow the road that our faith unfolds for us.
Peace!

Tetsutaka
7th September 2000, 12:05
Richard,

I think that's what makes the world a fascinating and beautiful place.

Yours in spirit,

Tom Davidson
8th September 2000, 12:54
I think there is a point worth mentioning here - sorry I am so late to this discussion.

The mystical or esoteric content of koryu were those elements adapted from 'religious' practice of the day, sought out by practitioners who were endeavouring to push themselves to the limit of their capabilities. Physical training is not enough if the practitioner is psychologically disadvantaged in some manner. The whole of this can be summed up in zanshin, which is surely core to the philosophy of any koryu tradition.

Meditation is the first step in training the mind. In the west we have no direct equivalent - contemplative prayer is as close as we come and its application is specifically religious. The point of meditation is to learn to control, concentrate and focus the mind. This is useful for warriors seeking to a) manage their own doubts, fears, etc. b) to maintain peak alertness at all times, or if not, to reach a point of combat alertness in an instant.

Esoteric practices are not for everyone. There are plenty of examples of swordsmen who had no time for such things, however this does not make them invalid.

My point is that such matters, mikkyo, etc. belong to their time and place. I would venture to say it is next to impossible to recreate the conditions under which systems evolved, in the same way that I would say even the most proficient martial artist today will not attain the level of the koryu founders because the environment (early twenty first century) do not provide the conditions under which they lived. The life of an iaidoka today, for example, is NOT under constant threat, whereas for many of the koryu founders, death could come at any moment.

While such discussions are interesting, I think it has to be acknowledged that we cannot provide benchtests to examine the efficacity. The answers to such questions lie outside the realm of martial arts, although there are plenty of indicators within.

Tom

glad2bhere
8th September 2000, 16:31
Here's an old trick we have used reapeatedly at my school and it works every time.

Select a technique that you are having trouble with and concentrate on performing that technique correctly as you execute it. Do this about 20 times a practice and attend practice at least 3x that week.

Every student I have who has done this has come to me at the end of the week to report that the technique that they were having trouble with has suddenly become easier and more effective.

Unfortunately I have no understanding of what the mystical underpinnings of this phenomenom might be.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Rik
12th September 2000, 12:47
Aah

I was wondering when this ancient technique would surface again. The mystical tradition of kim chee kwong. Yes, the inner workings of this esoteric practise go way back to the early days of the poo lik monks who guarded this tradition with their lives. Perhaps it is wise to cease mention of this as no doubt you have already roused attention amongst the quasimasonic order of the venerated yakuzatong circle, who no doubt will want to put a stop to this blatant publicisation of their central teachings.
Take care brother for the eldren never sleep,

Rik

glad2bhere
12th September 2000, 13:53
Since I have already violated the Code of Silence regarding these deep and closely guarded secrets ( and obviously have little more time to live as a result) perhaps I can contribute two other points.

One is that Gary Zukav in his book SEAT OF THE SOUL does a nice job of defining "five-sensory" people (individuals who only experience the world in terms of their five senses) with "multi-sensory" people (individuals who believe that the world is something more than the sum of its parts. As I read through many of the responses I am hearing quite a bit of friction between individuals who adhere to one or the other of these views.

The other point is the Buddhism (like Christianity) is much like water in a vessel. Both faithes tend to take on the shapes of the cultures that hold them. In SE Asia Buddhism adopted many of the Hindu characteristics of ceremony and cosmology. In Tibet, the influence was the earlier Bon religon. In China there was Taoism and Ancestor worship and in Japan, Shinto. Here in America the mix is with the Judeo-Christian ethic. I mention this to underscore that mysticism and spirituality by definition are very intimate and personal experiences. Magic, by definition, is an art of illusions.

Of course, the abbot of Shasta Abbey would probably say that life itself is an art of illusion, but I think I will save that one for another string, yes?

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

22nd September 2000, 22:56
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AST
[B]

Eric


"Exactly one of the things I was talking about. The Tibetan Ta-mo (sp?) meditations that allow them to survive freezing temperatures with minimal clothing.

Apparently the final exam is to spend a night high in the Himalaya's, naked, alongside a river, and to have fellow monks drape soaked robes around you. The idea is to then use body heat to dry the robes and not die of hypothermia.
Some monks can apparently dry as many as 40 robes in an evening.

If this does not constiuite paranormal ability then what the hell does?

Adrian Teixeira"


That's nothin'.
I read about a yogi found by a bunch of English tiger hunters, he was sitting on the bank of some river, completely surrounded by hungry crocodiles!!! it was supposedly in quite a few newspapers, along with photos.
Some pandits came down and asked him to be the next Shankaracharya, kinda like the Pope for all the Vedantics over there.
He agreed, and then four years later, he just walked out the back door one day & disappeared.....

22nd September 2000, 23:02
Sorry...
PUNDITS.

kenkyusha
23rd September 2000, 01:13
BudoIshaya,

Welcome to E-budo. Please note that forum rules require the use of full names when posting (configuring into your signature is simplicity itself! :smash: ).

Be well,
Jigme

glad2bhere
24th September 2000, 05:22
It is my fervent hope that I will be able to realize the power to experience my clothes drying while wearing them. In the meantime I have developed the ability accrue at least a very, very thin layer of dust on the top of my head and shoulders by sitting very still for extended periods of time. I have no idea how I have come to develope this power but am sure it relates to the fact that I breath on a regular basis as without exception I am breathing during the experience. In another matter I am also attempting to understand how I am able to cause the sun to rise.I don't remember doing anything special to produce this power but have found that following particularly long evening meditations the sun can be seen to rise outside my bedroom window.

Can it be that the Force is truely with me?

Bruce

MarkF
24th September 2000, 10:33
Well, as Yogi "hippy-dippy Weatherman" George Carlin once predicted, "It's gonna be dark tonight, all night, with partial light in the morning."

Cheese!
I mean cheers!


Mark