PDA

View Full Version : The medieval German sword and the Japanese katana



jorunikmv
11th August 2002, 15:29
I've read in several sources that the Medieval German "hand and half-sword" (about 120cm long) is in many ways comparable with the Japanese katana. The issue seems to have been raised for the first time by G. Panconelli-Calzia and later also by S. Matthew Galas ("Kindred Spirits, The Art of the Sword in Germany and Japan", Journal of Asian Martial Arts VI 1997 pp 20-46).

Some Medieval long swords/ hand and half swords are about the same length as a katana. The steel is of course different, being more flexible but not as hard as in Japanese swordmanship, and the blade is straight rather than slightly curved.

Also, it has been argued that there are several similarities between Medieval German/Japanese sword fighting techniques. There are European sword fighting manuals from the 14th - 15th century, for example Liechtenauer's, where stances and cuts are performed much like in kenjutsu.

Is there anyone else out there who has tried both styles and is able to tell if the above is true and to what extent?

BigJon
11th August 2002, 16:26
IF you copuld only reach Charles Daniels,(Longtime Bujinkan Member) he has studied both eastern and western approaches to fighting...
Jon Gillespie

ghp
11th August 2002, 21:24
You could also converse with many experienced people at http://www.swordforum.com .

It's been years since I was there, but we had some very enlightening discussions about the re-creation (not "recreation") of medieval European fighting styles.

I found at Barnes & Nobel a very enlightening reproduction of a 15th century German "Fechtbuch" by Talhoffer. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1853674184&pwb=1 Many of the defensive positions bear striking resemblances to Japanese kamae. There even was a "jujutsu" section that really took my breath away. One could really imagine that a Japanese martial arts expert went to 15th century Japan and influenced their fighting. However, why should we be surprised to find out that our European ancestors were not clunky dummies? That is a disrespectful thought -- as is thinking that African warriors couldn't wrestle with weapons, etc. (I don't know ... but I bet they did!)

Anyway, yes, my academic experience gives me the opinion that many of the techniques of both cultures developed simultaneously, along a parallel track. Heck, the human body can only bend in so many different ways -- add to that a 3-ft. piece of steel with an 11 inch handle. There are only so many unique ways to kill or defend with that combination.

Research, Learn, Grow!!

--Guy

FastEd
12th August 2002, 02:44
I have done both, though my western stuff is really only been superficial. I think most of us who have tried both have done so with the desire to compare and contrast. The similarites are in my mind more prevalent then the differences.

It should be pointed out though, that kendo et al. has been activily practiced for several hundred years, and with time has developed (changed). The Western sword has only recently been revived from literary sources, seriously in the last (i dunno? 15 - 20 years?). So I think there is an obvious disparity in the depth of skill of the practicioners (if you can compare the two traditions as homogenous groups). But that is simply a time factor, its too eraly right now to be definitive, I'll give it a 100 years and then compare ;). mean while I'll happly do both!

jorunikmv
12th August 2002, 08:04
Thank you for your replies, I will definitely continue to study the subject, both in theory and in practice! In September 28-29, John Clements (Author of "Medieval Swordmanship") will be in Stockholm to teach about the techniques of the long sword. I will be there :)

Charlie Kondek
12th August 2002, 14:50
Update: I still go to www.swordforum.com fairly often and the western martial arts community is really thriving there. Lots of into to be had on reading through the old threads.

ghp
12th August 2002, 23:49
WOW! Lookit this! I just ordered it for $49.95 from Amazon.com --

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1891448072/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_sc_1/102-9873562-6087310

Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship: Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer by Sigmund Ringeck, Christian Henry Tobler (Editor)

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1891448072.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

From Amazon's Editorial Review:

"Young knight learn,
to love God and revere women,
so that your honour grows.
Practice knighthood and learn
the Art that dignifies you,
and brings you honour in wars.
Wrestle well and wield lance,
spear, sword and dagger manfully;
whose use in others’ hands is wasted."
Thus began the teaching of Master Johannes Liechtenauer, the premier master-at-arms of medieval Germany, whose martial art dominated German swordsmanship for over two centuries.

Liechtenauer spent his youth traveling through Central and Eastern Europe, studying with masters from locales as far-off as Krakow and Prague. Through these wanderings, he developed his own unique and deadly form of martial art fully integrating sword, spear, dagger and grappling, for use in and out of armour; on foot and horseback. Gathering a select circle of students around him, Liechtenauer transmitted his teachings into cryptic, mnemonic verses and swore his students to secrecy. These students, in turn, became masters-at-arms to the greatest noble-houses of the Empire.

In the 15th century Sigmund Ringeck--master-at-arms to Albrecht, Count Palatine of the Rhine and Duke of Bavaria and one of the descendants of the "Liechtenauer school"--broke the secrecy and sought to explain the mysterious verses. Working through the verses line-by-line, he added explanatory commentary on the tactical and mechanical principles of the system. Ringeck’s commentaries reveal a sophisticated system of fighting, based on natural, underlying bio-mechanics and a fighting philosophy built around maintaining control of initiative.

Christian Henry Tobler has rendered this key text into English for the first time, providing photographic interpretation (800 photographs) and commentary for each technique of this "secret" martial art. The result is a must for serious martial artists,students of medieval history, hoplologists, and medieval reenactors.

About the Author
Christian Henry Tobler has been a longtime student of swordsmanship, especially as it applies to the pursuit of the chivalric ideals. A passionate advocate of the medieval Liechtenauer School, his work in translating and interpreting Sigmund Ringeck’s commentary firmly establishes him as an important contributor to the growing community of Western martial artists.

Charlie Kondek
13th August 2002, 13:55
Anybody downloaded the free training guide in PDF format at

www.aemma.org

?

jorunikmv
13th August 2002, 15:44
There are plenty of manuals at the ARMA (the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) homepage too: .www.thehaca.com/manuals.htm (http://www.thehaca.com/manuals.htm)

BigJon
13th August 2002, 16:19
Both of those last two websites are excellent! Thanks for sharing them...I wonder if any ancient manuals of just the quarterstaff exist?
Jon Gillespie

wmuromoto
14th August 2002, 00:24
Hi...

Guy and others...I just read Michael Crichton ("Jurassic Park") book "Timeline"; about a bunch of grad students who hop on a "quantum singularity" machine (basically, a machine that is like the Star Trek transporter) to send them to a different space time dimension, which means a different era, to rescue their medieval studies professor from two warring factions in France. Great pulp sci-fi time waster.

I'm not at all versed on Western fighting methods, but Crichton--based on what I guess are discussions with medievalists--describes the swordfighting of that time as being very, very fast and speedy, sort of like a duel with some very fast katana; the weight of the swords being offset by the skill and sheer brute strength of the protagonists. Guys our age went through high school thinking the knights lumbered along through sheer brute strength. But I'm sure that stereotype has long since been discarded by the medieval specialists and recent research and re-creations along hoplological lines.

Wayne Muromoto

ghp
14th August 2002, 02:24
Hi Wayne ... LOOOOOOOOOOONG time no hear!

Yes, Crichton appears to have researched 14th century medieval life well -- for a modern writer. As I recall, he mentions that armor was not as "tank-like" as you and I were taught as kids. No, boys and girls; armored knights were not winched up upon their horses. Full plate-armor weighs in at about 70 pounds and is evenly distributed so that it does not feel so heavy [I learned this via research, not experience]. Someone conditioned to wearing plate could mount a horse unaided [perhaps using a mounting stool?], and could even -- I've seen photos -- turn sumersaults. His description of medieval fencing seemed spot-on according to conversations I've had with exponents of rejuvinated Western Sword Arts.

Hmmmmmm .... it's been a few years since I read the book. Are they wearing full plate, or transitional armor (maille with pieces of plate)?

I enjoyed the book but for a few things.
(1) The timeline was just too darned short for the travelers to experience everything they did. What were they given -- 72 hours? -- during which they experienced enough action to span weeks.

(2) The grad student (historian?) was fluent in a dead language (and I think it is dead)-- he'd have no true idea of proper pronunciation, rhythm, etc., that is found in living languages. And he was able to fall right into the patter without missing a beat once they entered the period -- he should have required a transition time to go from academic to practical use. I forgot the name of the language, but I would think an analog is Anglo-Saxon or Egyptian heiroglyphics: we can read them, but don't know how they were pronounced (well, we can make some very good guesses with A-S as it seems close enough to modern German).

(3) All action was just too well scripted; like a clock-work, everything meshed all too mechanically.

(4) Chriton's understanding of quantum mechanics is flawed .... he forgot to carry the 2 in his time-fold calculation; otherwise, the quantum foam would evaporate too quickly (okay, I'm joking).

Cheers,
Guy

Joseph Svinth
14th August 2002, 09:24
For quarterstaff, try http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaart_docherty_0501.htm , http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyart_mccarthy_0901.htm , and http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyart_a-wp-w_0901.htm .

Charlie Kondek
14th August 2002, 13:56
Shoot. Imagine my embarassment. As a history minor in school I actually gave a paper on medieval combat that included some of these myths. When I found out the contrary much later through my reading, I was, like, d'oh!

On armor, I've seen illustrations from the, I think, 16th century, that show knights training in gymnastics in full harness. This included falls, rolls, climbing ladders, and doing flips over tables.

It's great what they're doing in the WMA community. (Although I think there's also a great deal of conflict inherent in the process, which is both good and bad. Good that it stimulates growth, bad that it leads to some pretty dreadful in-fighting.) Also, WMA suffers from the difficult position of "expertise" being subjective, not as clearly defined as JSA. Still, you can usually tell who knows their stuff after spending some time with them.

Don Roley
14th August 2002, 21:13
Originally posted by Jon G.
I wonder if any ancient manuals of just the quarterstaff exist?


Well, there are sections of certain old manuals devoted to it, but none exclusivly devoted AFAIK.

However, next year (hopefully) there will be coming out with a book on the quaterstaff based on all the differnt sources.

You may also want to pick up John Clements book on Medieval Swordsmanship to see just how similar the Western and Japanese arts can be at times. The similarities are austounding. However, there are a lot of people involved in western martial arts who seem to think that nothing you learn in Japanese swordmanship carries over to Western style.

BigJon
14th August 2002, 21:23
Joseph & Don, Thank you very much for the information....Jon Gillespie