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Qasim
14th August 2002, 02:45
Can anyone give me some information in regards to what types of steel other than 440 to look for when purchasing a katana? I don't study this art yet, but the system of jujutsu that I study of course includes this training at shodan.

At this time, I just have a desire to learn about the swords and their manufacture at this point. Please give pros and cons for each.

David T Anderson
14th August 2002, 02:55
This is a pretty broad subject...

Essentially what you want to look for are carbon steel [ie. non-stainless] swordblades...there are no worthwhile stainless-steel swordblades on the market that I'm aware of [and I have looked at a lot of sites].

The Paul Chen/Hanwei swords are not too bad if they suit you. Bugei Trading Co. sells the cream of the crop of Hanwei katana, as well as very fine custom blades. Cicada Forge is also selling pretty good swords, as is Cold Steel [actually the Cold Steel Blades are made by the same people who supply Cicada Forge]. You can also look at the Kris Cutlery site, but their Japanese-style swords are a new product and nobody knows much about them yet.
There are other custom makers around, but they generally charge a premium price for their handmade blades.

You might want to check into the SwordForum (http://swordforum.com) to see lots of discussion of all kinds of swords, including katana...

Qasim
14th August 2002, 03:43
What is the problem with stainless steel blades (that your know of)? Whenever you go to martial arts supplies sites, they advertise the these 440 steel blades, sharpened and unsharpended. Do they break easily, is it a balance/weight issue or other things?

The Coffee God
14th August 2002, 05:34
Originally posted by Qasim
What is the problem with stainless steel blades (that your know of)? Whenever you go to martial arts supplies sites, they advertise the these 440 steel blades, sharpened and unsharpended. Do they break easily, is it a balance/weight issue or other things?

Stainless steel is the easiest and fastest to mass-produce. That is why you see them at most of the MA supply stores, not to mention extremely cheap as well. The main problem with stainless is it doesn't withstand pressure well or being struck against hard objects. They tend to shatter or snap under minimal duress.

Now if you want to buy one as a wall hanger and nothing more then I have no problems with them. Save for the fact that, as mentioned above, you could spend a little bit more and get a fairly good quality Hanwei blade that you could actually use rather than just look at.

However, if you're looking into purchasing a excellent quality blade, be prepared to spend quite a bit of change for it.

Qasim
14th August 2002, 05:53
What would be the price range for "Fairly Good" and "Excellent Quality"? katana? For wakasashi and tanto, does the same apply?

The Coffee God
14th August 2002, 13:07
Well, Hanwei blades will generally run about $150-$900.

My suggestion is use your search engine and look up 'Paul Chen'. You might also try eBay, they tend to have a lot of Chen blades availible.

As for new shinsakuto, the price is much more clinching on the pocket book. They generally will run you about $1,100-$18,000 depending on where you go, and what embelishments you have put on it.

Wakazashi and tanto, the same applies, however, being smaller blades, the cost is a little less. As with the katana, the price also depends on what embelishments you have put on them.

chrismoses
14th August 2002, 16:42
We should set up an auto reply to this question, something like:

1. Ask your Sensei, never buy a sword without consulting your instructor first, espescially if it is your first blade. Your style may dictate a particular length of blade and/or handle. For that matter your instructor may tell you to get a particular sword.

2. Never buy something made from 440 or any other Stainless, they are dangerous. There are enough things in life to be scared about without tacking on a 3 foot long (relatively) brittle razor blade being swung about in close proximity to yourself.

3. If you are not yet training in Kenjutsu/Iaido/Battojutsu/Kendo and want to get familiar with the sword, buy a bokken. They're a lot cheaper, not nearly so dangerous and weigh a little bit less so you can build up to a real sword. If you simply must swing around something metal, buy a QUALITY iaito (from Kim Taylor, Nosyuiaido, Tozando, ECMAS, Bujindesign...) Most styles will prefer/ require you to start with an iaito first anyway before moving on to a shinken.

4. If and when you do buy a shinken, check out Bugei, swordstore (Nosyuiaido's USA site), ECMAS, or just look for a Paul Chen sword from Hanwei. (sorry for omitting sites, nothing personal my memory is like a bad collander) As was already pointed out, the Hanwei swords sold by Bugei are definitely the best things coming out of that forge, almost all of their swords are serviceable, however you may wind up having to touch up the edge or have the handle rewrapped/ remade. (This seems particularly true of Hanwei swords that cost less than about $600, I had to do both to mine)

5. Check with your Sensei. :D

Neil Yamamoto
14th August 2002, 17:23
Do a search in the sword arts forum for a thread titled 'stainless steel'. It's back a couple years ago.

This thread covers the topic pretty throughly.

INFINOO
14th August 2002, 17:30
I understand that "Stainless steel" has gotten a bad rap for swords by the purest. However there are tool steel out there like A2 and D2 that have been around for years that make "excellent swords", and they have 12 Cro which is darn near stainlessin my book. If you dont beleive me ask Phil Hartsfeild at "A Cut above knife Shop". Also its interesting to note that there are "new steels" Im working with out there specifically CPMS30V which is a stainless tool steel that are more impact resistance than A2 tool steel:D. Crucibal made this steel specifically for the knife industry. The steel formula is roughly based on there CPM3V which is a high vanadium tool steel. I have been makeing extreme use tactical knives and large Bowies out of CPM3V for a year and there is nothing else that even comes close, in regards to the balence of edge holding, impact resistance and toughness except maby 1V which isnt availible in knife/sword thicknesses "yet". Simple steels like 1095 are fine if you want a pretty hamon but if you want high performance why stay in the dark ages? If your looking for a Katana out of stainless than CPMS30V may be the stainless tool steel we have been waiting for.

Regards
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

chrismoses
14th August 2002, 18:01
If you want to get into the technical merits of the different tool steels, head over to Bugei's forum and check out the Metalurgical section of their site. I'm no expert but my understanding is that many tool steels which are great for knives (even of machette size) simply do not hold up to the forces generated as a katana. I have a VG-10 knife in my pocket right now, and have lots of faith in it. I would not however use a sword made out of it. What works for 3 inches may not hold up to 3 feet. Admittedly Howard Clark (and others) are doing some really cool stuff with L6, and other modern steels.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2114
has a wealth of info on ss and other steels.

Most people who are looking at "Stainless Steel Katanas" are looking at the $89.95 variety offered at sites like wwmas.com which are not safe for real martial arts use. LEGITIMATE SMITHS MAKING REAL KATANA OUT OF NON-TRADITIONAL STEELS DO NOT REFER TO THEM AS STAINLESS STEEL. If you would like to get an American made tool steel katana, there are several smiths around the country doing just that, but you should be prepared to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars and you will probably have to wait for a year or more. I simply doubt that someone asking about stainless steel katanas is ready to shell out that kind of money, espescially when one can purchase a perfectly servicable blade for about a thousand dollars.

Anyway, this topic has been pretty well done to death, (thus my suggestion of the simple answer auto-reply) and no offence meant to the original poster, just because we've heard the question doesn't mean you've heard the answer. ;) Be sure to check out Bugei's forum or the above mentioned e-budo thread on the merits (if you can call them that) of SS.

Paulo K. Ogino
15th August 2002, 01:09
Take a look to this book:

The Complete Bladesmith, Forgin Your Way To Perfection
By Jim Hrisoulas

Has a good set of info about steels, so you can get a general idea about different kind of steels.

"At the end of the day, the cheap stuff is expensive stuff"

Joseph Svinth
15th August 2002, 10:38
For links to various sword and iaito sellers, try http://ejmas.com/ejmasiaitosource.htm . If you buy the one priced at $20,000, make sure you tell Kim that I sent you, as maybe he'd let me have a steerer's fee. :)

If you decide to start with wooden rather than metal weapons, then begin by reading Kim's advice on making wooden weapons at http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_1100.htm . Then, whether you make one or buy it, you'll have a better idea what you're looking for.

For a price list, take a look at http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_stdweapons.htm . The prices are mid-range, so if you're seeing wooden weapons that are considerably cheaper or more expensive, be sure to ask why.

Nicholas Yang
18th August 2002, 10:11
I know this might have been answered already but here goes:
What your looking for is a mild to high-carbon steel (made of SAE 1050 - 1080 carbon steel). The amount of carbon determines the hardenibility of the sword. Look for one that's been selectively hardened, meaning that the back is softer than the edge. A blade that has been selectively hardened is much more durable than a sword thats been completely hardened. The hardness your looking for is usually between 48-50RC (Rockwell) for the spine of the sword and 58-60 Rockewell for the edge.
Now...blades are much stronger if the steel (mild - high) has been folded to remove all the impurities, it is also much stronger because of the grain structure it developes after folding, forging, hardening and tempering. When you look at a blade, pay close attention to the grain of the sword as this will also determine the strength of the blade.
Please correct me of any possible mistakes that have been made.
Sorry, i just read over the thread again and noticed that you wanted to know the pros and cons of each material.

Stainless shatters and could possibly seriously hurt you or anyone within your vicinity. But, it doesn't rust and it holds a good edge. Should only be a display piece.

Mild - High Carbon steels only rolls or chips if struck against a harder surface than it's own or comparatively harder, it does not shatter as easily as stainless steel unless it has not been properly tempered (search for heat treating and you'll know what i mean), rusts quite easily (in some cases, right in front of your eyes) and requires maintenance (maintenace kit should be included if you buy a carbon steel blade), in my opinion it holds a much better edge than stainless steel and in some case out cuts it. Can be used as a display piece OR a proper martials arts training weapon (under heavy use and stresses).

Soulend
18th August 2002, 15:14
I'm still waiting for someone to make a katana with a core of cobalt, sheathed in L6. ;)

Dan Harden
18th August 2002, 16:15
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sho...=&threadid=2114
Stainless steel thread

I have asked three times for it to be placed in the sword archives for ease of use and so none of us have to repeat the same information (I thought the archives were a great idea)
For some reason John won't do it.

Anyway-it is a complicated subject

Dan

ghp
18th August 2002, 18:23
Dan,

You are the "Steel God" around here ... so I've got a question for you.

How does the taisabiko / sabinaito ["stainless steel"] of the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal at Yokohama compare against today's "stainless steel"? I polished mine years ago while in Japan, so the artificial suguha hamon is gone, and recently the edge was touched-up by a visiting smithy-uchideshi from the Kamakura Masamune kajiya. Anyway, it is thick for a gunto, having a chu-kissaki with a very thick sakihaba section at the yokote [matsu-ba] due to improper finishing (says my former MJER teacher in Japan ... who was also a polisher). Nice thick nakago with the "circle-anchor" mark. .... but still, it's only "stainless steel" :)

Anyway -- with "new" koshirae only 20 years old, it's great for training; but, I've always wondered about the "quality" of the war-era stainless.

Thanks,
Guy