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PingAnTu
18th August 2002, 16:16
Howdy all,

Like many of you, I've been around martial arts my whole life. I've met tons of crazy people who fancy themselves real martial artists -- but are not. I've also met several people who are real martial artists and these people all share certain commonalities. So let me put the question, what makes a real martial artist in modern post-industrial society? I'll start the qualities off and let's see if we can add to the list.

A real martial artist is one who...

1. Is Curious about learning -- not just martial arts stuff but knowledge in general.

2. Is Humble -- in the sense that they can keep their mouth shut when they need to.

3. Trains every day -- barring sickness or emergency time constraints.

4. Is able to respect people -- in other words, is not brash and has the ability to defer ego and listen to people with more experience.

5. Is goal oriented -- works at a technique until he/she gets it right.

6. Never feels like he/she is good enough or knows it all.

7. Is not afraid to change what he/she is doing if there are better ways.

8. Is in martial arts for the long haul, and not just to learn how to fight -- but can roll it out in a big way if need be.

9. Doesn't get too caught up in one aspect of the martial arts, but rather likes to continually bring everything into the big picture. "Chinese saying: Don't get caught up looking at the leaf without seeing the whole tree"

10. Likes to see other people getting good.

11. Is generally a very calm person.

Anything else?

PingAnTu
18th August 2002, 17:41
Forgot to sign my post:rolleyes:

Paul Adamson

Laotse
18th August 2002, 19:24
Originally posted by PingAnTu
Howdy all,

A real martial artist is one who...


Doesn't sound like many people on this board, does it?

PingAnTu
20th August 2002, 01:42
Well, I'm just trying to draw similarities among people I have been very impressed by. They are strikingly similar. Obviously, everyone is different but people with real skills in traditional martial arts seem to be... Kind of the same.

What about impressive martial artists you have met?

Any other observations?

I would like to come up with a template to help my students figure out if they are on the right path or not.

Paul Adamson

Steve C
21st August 2002, 22:24
Would it be pedantic to mention

12. Is skilled at the arts of war, modern or ancient.

Interesting term, 'Martial artist' - It's original use denoted people good at any skill necessary on the field of battle - horsemanship, for example.

PingAnTu
25th August 2002, 19:31
I think that would be the same as point 8 -- ref. "roll it out in a big way".

Maybe another point would be:

12. Is easilty inspired by those better than he. So his concept of competition is warm-hearted.

Steve C
28th August 2002, 10:08
Hmmm... Still not sure about the basis of this discussion. It seems like the "No True Scotsman" fallacy;

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/blfaq_fall_notruescotsman.htm

In summary, it goes;

"Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. You counter this by pointing out that your friend Angus likes sugar with his porridge. I then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. "

The problem is, a scotsman is a) a man, and b) from Scotland. Nothing else, right? I think martial artists are just the same. Martial = of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior. Art = skill acquired by experience, study, or observation. So, Martial Artist = A person with skills suited to war or a warrior.

Exactly what makes a good martial artist in a given place and time differs, doesn't it? At this point in history, it's better to be able to operate a tank than use a lance on a horse. But the core has to be about winning wars. We've taken the term and started using it for self-defence rather than war, But I think that's OK.

I like this take on what makes a martial artist, from an English Elizabethan sword master;

"It cannot be said that, if a man go to the field and cannot be sure to defend himself in fight and to come safe home, [...] whether he fight with a man of skill or no skill it may not be said that such a man is master of the noble science of defence" -- George Silver, Brief Instructions on my Paradoxes of Defence

Basically, a true (self-defence) martial artist is one who can face skilled or unskilled assailants and not be in any danger, because of his skill.

If you can routinely defend yourself, in a situation without rules or conventions of fighting, you've made it; you're a martial artist. If you can't, you aren't. It's a nice clear definition. And I think it rules out people who are untrained but aggressive fighters, because I think that without training, you'll always be relying heavily on luck. With real skill, luck is much less important.

Stuff like point 2 (humility) and point 11 (calm) aren't necessary for the martial arts. What's necessary is fighting ability. Whether we're talking about mythic characters like Hector and Achilles, semi-mythic characters like Musashi, real people like Gichin Funakoshi or Morihei Ueshiba, what's important is the ability to come out of a dangerous situation unscathed. Sometimes things like agression is necessary. What we're learning, sometimes teaching, is the practical use of violence.

With that in mind, here's my answer to the original question; what makes a real martial artist in modern post-industrial society?

0) The diplomacy to avoid and diffuse violent situations.
1) The strength and skills to emerge from a violent situation physically unscathed.
2) The strength of mind to emerge without mental or spiritual turmoil.
3) The savvy to emerge without legal complications.

They are ordered, from most important to least important. (I put the first point in as 0 because we usually start learning at 1).

Thanks for reading. Any thoughts?

Steve

Tatsu
29th August 2002, 00:31
All y'alls points were really good.

An experienced martial artisit should also understand the difference between depth and superficiality based on singular and collaborative observation. The real test of one's assumptions is personal empiricism and practical experience. A true martial ART is much deeper than pure combat, but self-preservation is one of the main tenets. A true martialist understands his or her limitations and those of others around them. A true martial artist should always expect the unexpected. Never stereotype or fall into the frame of mind that you've seen and experienced it ALL before.

A true martial artist should never underestimate her/his opponent. A true martialist understands that winning only really counts when your arse is on the line; in the streets. Train accordingly

Goju Man
29th August 2002, 00:48
A true martialist understands that winning only really counts when your arse is on the line; in the streets. Train accordingly

Careful Bryan, you're making sense.:cool:

Ron Rompen
29th August 2002, 03:58
Just to correct the misquote previously posted...


A -=TRUE=- Scotsman is a) a man, b) from Scotland, c) doesn't put sugar on his porridge (although salt is allowed) and d) one who goes absolutely BERSERK when called a Scotchman!

Steve C
29th August 2002, 08:38
:) Actually, I've never met a scotsman (or woman. or Scotsperson? ;) ) who actually liked salt. They all eat it with sugar. But then I've only met scots who live south of the border; which probably means they aren't real scotsmen either.

Clear as mud, then

I can understand 'Scotchman' causing a problem. A Scotchman either a) drinks a lot of whisky, or b) is covered in sausagemeat and breadcrumbs.

Steve

Sochin
29th August 2002, 18:18
One of the few ethnic jokes I tell is during self defense class where I remind the class that they will be threatened by someone larger and stronger than themselves, that few people ever pick fights with folks bigger than themselves...

that there is a name for people who do like to pick fights with those bigger than themselves, they are called "Scotsmen!"

so far, even those from a Scottish tradition give a laugh.

Tatsu
29th August 2002, 23:05
Originally posted by Goju Man


Careful Bryan, you're making sense.:cool:

Thanks, sir. In the words of Marshall Mathers: "A nuisance? Who sent? You sent for me?!"

Goju Man
30th August 2002, 02:53
Thanks, sir. In the words of Marshall Mathers: "A nuisance? Who sent? You sent for me?!"

Who's on first???:D

Daruma
30th August 2002, 07:11
Sugar oan ma Porridge?

whit ye take me fur a lass?

A real man wid huve Salt oan es porridge, Sugar is for yon nancy boays.

That being said, I just have milk on my porridge, salts being bad for you and Sugar not being manly enough ;)

What we saying here guys?

a Real martial Artist would have Salt on his porridge?

Hah hah

:cool:

X-1 Falcon
30th August 2002, 14:38
0) The diplomacy to avoid and diffuse violent situations.
1) The strength and skills to emerge from a violent situation physically unscathed.
2) The strength of mind to emerge without mental or spiritual turmoil.
3) The savvy to emerge without legal complications.


Steve, you're talking about a Jedi. The Shaulin(sp) of the real world.

Asia
30th August 2002, 19:34
2. Is Humble -- in the sense that they can keep their mouth shut when they need to.

I have a personal issue with this. There is nothing saying a MArtist CAN'T be an agrogant ARSEHOLE! There are many examples of GOOD MArtist who are NOT Humble. So this should not be a criteria


I always look at a MArtist as someone who studies the aspects of war. That is truly the only criteria. I would like for someone who knows how to reap havoc to be a nice guy but that is not realistic. Basicly I agree with Steve C.

Steve C
3rd September 2002, 15:24
Brett - I reckon the Jedi are modelled on old Tai chi martial artists. Consider the evidence! ;)

1. Both believe in a energy that pervades the universe which can be channeled by warriors and sages.

2. Liam Neeson played a character called 'Qui-Gon Jinn' - if you spell it 'qi-gong jin', the bits translate as

a) qi-gong - chi, or force exercises
b) jin - a refined form of Chi energy that can be used to protect the body in combat, allow more powerful strikes with less effort and promote good health.

Wow! what more proof do you need!? Obi-wan kinobi's mentor was a master of the combative chi powers! See more details in my forthcoming website, "Jedi Master Steve and the greedoryu school of combat magic."*

----

Actually, though, it's a good point. But maybe another way to look at it is to say

0) I don't want to fight
1) If I have to fight, I want to win
2) If I win, I don't want to feel bad about having defended myself
3) I don't want the police to throw me in jail for fighting.

Sounds very pragmatic, if you ask me...

Tatsu
3rd September 2002, 21:56
Tai Chi- maybe, but Yoda looked a lot like Hohan Soken, hahaha. There is qigong in karate, too.

PingAnTu
6th September 2002, 17:31
Guys,

All I'm saying is that of all the martial artists I know... those that gravitate to the top all share certain commonalities. Somebody can be arrogant and be a good fighter but I haven't seen it last long. Arrogant people sooner or later run into somebody better than they are and then have a choice:

1. Get humble and get better
2. Forget about the episode, stay arrogant and never get really good

All of the really good martial artist I have met have had the ability to be humble.

Paul Adamson

Goju Man
6th September 2002, 22:49
Originally posted by PingAnTu
Guys,

All I'm saying is that of all the martial artists I know... those that gravitate to the top all share certain commonalities. Somebody can be arrogant and be a good fighter but I haven't seen it last long. Arrogant people sooner or later run into somebody better than they are and then have a choice:

1. Get humble and get better
2. Forget about the episode, stay arrogant and never get really good

All of the really good martial artist I have met have had the ability to be humble.

Paul Adamson

Paul, unfortunately, being humble is not a factor. There are plenty of arrogant a-hoes in the arts. Some are very skilled and some are not. I think that dedication goes along way though.