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TFunakoshi
19th August 2002, 16:02
Hello.

2 years ago there's been a thread about "Kensei". I think it's time to start a new one about such subject.

I'm just writing about Kiaijutsu (only in german) and then I came to the idea of the silent Kiai, named KENSEI. It's pointed out that this kiai is used in meditation. I'm just asking myself how this KENSEI could "look" like or what's good for!?

Has anyone an idea about KENSEI? Is such thing really on our little earth or is it 'myst', a fairytail???

Thanks for reading and answering. Have a nice day.

Goju-Ryu
20th August 2002, 00:04
Never heard or read anything about it... Sorry!
But it would be good to learn something about it here!

BigJon
20th August 2002, 00:46
I thought Kensei means sword saint. Maybe Im wrong though...:rolleyes: Jon Gillespie

TFunakoshi
20th August 2002, 01:02
Hello.

Thanks for your answers.

I think "KENSEI" is a 'hymonym' (spelling mistake?) what means that this word has two (or more) meanings. So it could mean "sword saint" or "silent kiai" (or whatsoever).

I'm just interested in the meaning of the "silent kiai". Especially I'm also interested in meditation and correct breathing.

Goju-Ryu
20th August 2002, 01:13
I talked about this with a friend and he said me that Kensei means "sacred fist" I also think it could mean that because i've read something about it before but I was in doubt if it was Kensei ou Seiken :(

Yamantaka
21st August 2002, 12:33
Originally posted by TFunakoshi
I think "KENSEI" is a 'hymonym' (spelling mistake?) what means that this word has two (or more) meanings. So it could mean "sword saint" or "silent kiai" (or whatsoever).
I'm just interested in the meaning of the "silent kiai". Especially I'm also interested in meditation and correct breathing.

YAMANTAKA : Do you have the kanji for this KENSEI (Silent Kiai)? That's the only way we can know for sure.
Best

TFunakoshi
21st August 2002, 12:49
Hello Yamataka.


Do you have the kanji for this KENSEI (Silent Kiai)? Sorry, I haven't.

arnie
21st August 2002, 15:26
Sidetrack?

I've heard about silent kiai, if memory serves me (for a change :-) it was called something like "muu sei no kiai", but that had to do with technique (not meditation) so I guess I'm off track here.

I don't know what it looks like, only how it sounds :-)

Ari Lappinen

TFunakoshi
21st August 2002, 15:33
Hello Arnie.

All you know about "kiai" is important. Could you tell me what "muu sei no kiai" means and when you use it?

Thanks a lot.

arnie
21st August 2002, 17:00
Thomas Schwenke

Sure I can tell you, or at least try.

The way I understood it "muu sei no kiai" is the same as the "loud kiai" (juu sei no kiai?) only without sound, i.e focusing all your mental and physical power.

I suppose one could use it in just about every technique one executes.
One of the benefits of shouting is it helps you find the correct way on exhaling when you do the tech, kind of integrate correct breathing to the motion.
Once you've "got it" you can do the same but silently and you have "muu sei no kiai", or part of it at least.

If someone knows more about this, or if my understandings aren't accurate, I'm sure Thomas is as eager as myself to read about it!

Regs,

Ari Lappinen

gmanry
22nd August 2002, 00:36
It is interesting that in karate we refer to kiai jutsu and in aiki arts it is aiki jutsu. Now I know these have specific meanings within the arts, but they both refer to a harmonizing effect, and they both involve harmonization with another. Otherwise why do it?

In karate too much emphasis is put on the harmonization of the physical motion, more power, more speed, etc. Often the harmonization with the opponent is lost.

Funakoshi Gichin's book "Karate-do My Way of Life" has the story of Matsumura who is challenged by a shop keeper who is also a karate expert. Matsumura defeats him with kiai jutsu, and the key to the event was his timing with the opponent.

Watching the AMC channel the other night, I saw a fantastic show on Bruce Lee. In one section they showed him doing full contact in armor at a karate tournament demo. He managed to disrupt his opponents movement at everyturn, this is kiaijutsu in my opinion. He was harmonized with his opponents rhythm to the point that he could enter and exit it at will.

Aiki is similar in that you blend and then take over your opponent.

All of this relates back to the story of Matsumura on one level or another. Most of the kiai executed today is hollow as it focusses on the act of shouting.

A great feint can be kiaijutsu, a disrupting movement that shatters your opponents intent is kiaijutsu. A shout that accompanies this may help, but is not necessary.

In a sparring match back in 1985, I completely dropped an opponent to the floor with kiai, he was hyperventilating and shaking. This guy was a Marine and a body builder, tough guy. I was 17 or 18 at the time and weighed about 150 pounds. He described it as being like a seisure.

Was this magic mojo? Unlikely, but it was a situation of spontaneous kiai that completely disrupted his balance, intent, etc. I scared the poop out of him at just the right instant, and I did not do it with planned intent. It was interesting, and I have not been able to duplicate it to that degree since.

Kiai jutsu cannot really be taught as a whole, in my opinion. You can only describe it and then the individual has to work with those conveyed feelings. This is why it is considered an elusive element. Unfortunately, it is mystified to the point that very few people work with it as a potential method. I believe kiai has more to do with music and dance than with loud screaming and facial expressions bordering on the constipated.

TFunakoshi
22nd August 2002, 01:24
Hello.

Thank you Arnie for your explanations about kiai jutsu.

Nice explanation gmanry. I found 4 methods of kiai jutsu.
1. with shout
2. without shout
3. silent (in meditation)
4. for health (kuatsu, kwappo jutsu)

First I discovered that abdominal breath is more healthy than chest breath and read in R. Habersetzers book (Karate for Masters) that many katas of Goju ryu were katas of correct breathing. The prerequisite for a kiai is to breath correct. That's the first.

The purposes of the different kiais:

1. with shout
You already wrote what you can do with a shout. I agree with your statements. I would just like to add that 2 kiais of this method are done in each shotokan-kata (except from Wankan).

2. without a shout
I think, this method of a kiai has a lot of purposes.
a) When you breath correctly (abdominal breathing) your stomach is save because your muscles in this area are tensed.
b) If you exhale, your blood will go in your muscles. If you breath in, your heart will get the blood and thus you have no power if you attack and inhale.
Other purposes could be right, too.
I think, this kiai is done all the time (each technique) in shotokan-katas.

3. silent kiai
The purpose isn't evident for me!?

4. for health
It is said that a lot of old masters could cure/heal (or even kill) a man with just one kiai. I don't know if that is true!?

That are my thoughts of kiai jutsu and its purpose.

Tatsu
22nd August 2002, 09:18
This is actually a cool thread. In Matsumura Orthodox we learn many aspects of Heiho Jutsu, or the "Art of Strategy". Included under Minari No Heiho (Strategy of Appearance) is Obiyakashi no Heiho and Kochiku no Heiho, which are the strategy of bluffing and the strategy of appearing strong. Adopting a strong attitude which includes the use of an audible Kiai, or one of a placid or weak position in which one strikes out suddenly, and silently (with the use of an imperceivable kiai) are very valuable weapons to a fighter.

Another aspect of kiai jutsu we learn about, is the distinction between the different "spirit shouts". A large carnivore, like a lion or bear, will often let go with a soul piercing roar when killing its prey or defending itself. This type of vocalization is used to gain and show strength. This is the kiai we learn to do in most training halls. Often omitted from the explanation of kiai jutsu is the use of three other "spirit yells".

One deals with the use of a high pitched scream that some smaller carnivores will often use to stop small prey animals in their tracks. The coyote will use a high pitched yelp in order to momentarily freeze the prey animal in its tracks which may give it more of a chance of capturing it successfully. Similarly, a person being attacked can often cause hesitation in the attacker by letting out a loud ear-piercing, "Stop!" or "Heyy!". This may bide one time to initiate an offensive movement, thus the seemingly scared or helpless victim can become the aggressor or initiator of some proactive defense.

The third we discuss is the use of a silent kiai. Forceful exhalation without any real shout. The air comes from the tanden (as do all kiais), but focus is enhanced by lack of a vocal distraction. Also, kiais require that you open your mouth, and consequently, your jaw is in a bad position to take a good strike to this area. Silent kiais can be executed with the jaw clenched, thus offering more protection against chin shots and such.

The fourth deals with a combination of the kiai already described. This strategy can fall under Kochiku no Heiho, the appearance of strength, or the strategy of the "tall bamboo". This amalgam of kiais can also include the use of forceful language while tangling with your opponent. "I didn't want to kick your arse, but now I gotta kill you!!!", or something to that effect.

Sorry for the length. Next time I'll just answer "yes" or "no"...

M_I_G
22nd August 2002, 11:43
I think that most people doesn't Know what a kiai is. They saw the other people doing at the dojo, so they do it also. In kata the same happens, they learn that there's a kiai in a certain technique so they do it without knowing why they are doing that. This is concerning to new people in martial arts, but even higher grades don't know why they do kiai and more important when to do it and why to do it, they only do it because they get used to do it... I was talking about a kiai with shout.

arnie
22nd August 2002, 15:28
Hi all!

This thread is getting more and more interesting.

gmanry,
you widened my view on "aiki", but I forgive you :-)

Thomas,
maybe that meditation thing means that you build your "ki" and become better in focusing and able to "walk faster" along your way ("do")?
Who knows, perhaps a really strong silent kiai could send you right to nirvana :-)
(warning: I'm totally guessing)

Miguel,
IMHO every martial artist should examine the different aspects of his/her art and try to figure them out (and check with "sensei" or more experianced martial artists), kiai as well as lets say the various stances, movements or even rei.

regs,
Ari Lappinen

TFunakoshi
22nd August 2002, 17:38
Hello.

@Tatsu

Very nice explanations about kiai. It is amazing what you are learning in your style. That's very, very instersting. I just learned to shout and to cry, but why ... nobody told me!

Now I'm know and I agree with you completely. A shout can stop an animal or persons. If you use it correctly you can "fight" a fight without getting physical.

Just a question. You wrote.
The third we discuss is the use of a silent kiai. Forceful exhalation without any real shout. The air comes from the tanden (as do all kiais), but focus is enhanced by lack of a vocal distraction. Also, kiais require that you open your mouth, and consequently, your jaw is in a bad position to take a good strike to this area. Silent kiais can be executed with the jaw clenched, thus offering more protection against chin shots and such. That's a fine idea, but if your mouth is closed how do you exhale? What's with the air in your lungs?

@M_I_G

Yes. That's it! 2 years it was told to me "Shout! Just shout.". Why? Nobody told me WHY. Ok, they said: "Shout. Do U wanna get the next rank, don't u!?". Ok, I shout!!!

@arnie

Your idea about the silent kiai could be true. When I was reading your post there came an idea to me. For a while I read an article from Chokki Motobu. He wrote he trained the kata in mind when he was sitting in seiza (knee-sitting). If you train kata just in your mind, I think, you have to do a VERY silent kiai (just in your mind?).

Perhaps a silent kiai (KENSEI) is just a kiai which is in your mind!? It is only mental not physical.

arnie
22nd August 2002, 18:26
Thomas,

I'm not sure here, but I think kiai is both mental and physical.
After all doesn't it mean something like collecting and focusing all your energies, that would have to include bodily such, or...?

Having said that I don't mean that any movement or sound necessarily have to be involved, in fact I don't really know what I mean :-)

But if you do practice kata "mental training-style", I strongly suggest that you leave out those loud kiais, at least if you're doing it on a bus or in the classroom :-)

regs,

Ari Lappinen

gmanry
22nd August 2002, 21:39
Many past experts in martial arts have recommended training in nature to develop one's kiai.

Mas Oyama recommends this, and he spent time in the mountains to do this.

Morihei Ueshiba also spent a lot of time outdoors developing his feeling of these principles.

Takamatsu Toshitsugu only trained outdoors with his students, and spent many years traveling in the wild in his youth developing his ability to harmonize with and disrupt an opponents rhythm. Stories of his meeting with a shugendo ascetic in his youth relate to the healing powers of kiai jutsu and the use of mudra and chanting intonations (kuji).

Now that I live in Wyoming, I am looking forward to spending more time in a wild environment to work on these principles. A large part of the wilderness thing is also not seeming like a lunatic around others. :)

Spear training would be very good for kiaijutsu I think, and I think this is why Ueshiba may have been so fond of that weapon. Bringing everything through to a point...

Tatsu's post is very interesting, in that there are many writings that talk about different intonations and sounds for creating certain effects. One can experience this through singing and music as well. Very interesting things to be sure. A good method for associating certain sounds with intent is a good thing. Indian literature and meditative techniques rest very heavily on intonation out loud or in the mind.

Kiai justu is a strategy and not a magic method. You have to know when and with whom to employ it. It is a method and a technique, and not all techniques are equally effective on each person.

Good thread.

arnie
22nd August 2002, 21:49
gmanry wrote:

"One can experience this through singing..."

Well if I started singing I'd scare away just about any opponent, there's no question about that!

Ari Lappinen

Tatsu
22nd August 2002, 23:48
Originally posted by TFunakoshi
Hello.

@Tatsu

Very nice explanations about kiai. It is amazing what you are learning in your style. That's very, very instersting. I just learned to shout and to cry, but why ... nobody told me!

Now I'm know and I agree with you completely. A shout can stop an animal or persons. If you use it correctly you can "fight" a fight without getting physical.

Just a question. You wrote. That's a fine idea, but if your mouth is closed how do you exhale? What's with the air in your lungs?


Thanks for the compliment. Yes I understand what you are visualizing. It's really no problem to exhale through your teeth. Try it. Your cheeks might puff out, but the air will still escape. Plus, exhalation can also be through the nose. Hope this clarifies, but hit me up for any further queries... Peace all!

Goju-Ryu
23rd August 2002, 00:24
Once during a meeting we were doing kihon and we were used to give a kiai in the last movement when we trained in our dojos, but the sensei who was "giving orders" said us not to give the kiai in the end and try to concentrate all the power in the lower abdomen (tanden), we did it and all the techniques seemed much more powerful...
Remember this M_I_G?? ;)

Kiai should be seen as an explosion, silent or not... and also as the apogee of breathing...

TFunakoshi
23rd August 2002, 01:06
Hello.

Thank you all for your very interesting answers.

@Tatus

Thanks for the compliment. Yes I understand what you are visualizing. It's really no problem to exhale through your teeth. Yes. Thank you. It works!

@Arnie

But if you do practice kata "mental training-style", I strongly suggest that you leave out those loud kiais, at least if you're doing it on a bus or in the classroom :-) Hmm, a kiai ought to be physical and mental, but in this case ... I don't know :(

@gmanry
Nice posting. Very interesting to me.
It is said that Ueshiba was a great master of KIAI-Jutsu. I heard and read a lot of cool things about he and HIS kiai.

gmanry
23rd August 2002, 01:44
Thinking about Mr. Cyr's information, which is excellent by the way, I recalled a situation that was very instrumental to my martial education.

When I was a bit younger, 19, I allowed myself to become entangled in a confrontation that I should have just avoided. I was very relaxed in the situation, too relaxed, and as a result, I was injured, though not defeated (nor did I "win"). It was just a stupid mess, really.

As a result I became interested in emotional control in fighting. My major mistake was that I maintained detached calm past the point of obvious altercation. This was a big mistake.

Mr. Cyr's post reminds us that we must maintain intention during altercation. Your opponent must receive a feeling of imminent danger. This is much more than trash talking and posturing. It is a visceral emanation from the martial artist.

In my altercation, I got sucker punched and double teamed. Unfortunately for them, I have a granite jaw. After I was hit, I was P.O.d to no end. I locked eyes with the bigger one, and he and his friend backed off fast, went to their car and drove away as I continued to walk toward them. This was not blind anger, I just snapped into the proper mental attitude for combat. To me it was not a "fight" anymore, and they wanted none of it.

Youth got me in trouble, instinct and fighting experience saved my butt. In all, a pretty uneventful situation, but chawked full of lessons. :) <---- smiley needs a big fat lip and a chipped tooth.

This is all part of kiaijutsu, imo. The different sounds Mr. Cyr speaks of are ways of linking your physicality to your emotional state, and remain in control of both. That is great that his instructors have given a syllabus for students to begin working on these things. From there, I think development is deeply personal, and instruction is largely self-driven. At least, it has been for me once I learned some things from those who are more experienced in these matters.

This is extremely important in fighting, and it is why it always seems a "trick" of the ancient masters. I believe it is because they finally develop the maturity to do it. That experience sure changed my training methods on a number of levels in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Wow, this thread is really making me think about the past. Not a bad thing...

TFunakoshi
24th August 2002, 08:11
Hi Glenn.

Nice posting. You're a wild beast, aren't you :) ?

I was just reading in my book "Dead or Alive" (Geoff Thompson - I recommend it strongly) when I found this: The "KIAA" spirit shout, is also very effective for psyching out a "would be" attacker. The American Red Indians used a similar principle of war cries and war paint to instil feat into theri enemies before battle, with great effect. Also eye contact, a sharp poke into the opponents chest, a firm push, even a slap across the face can cause adrenal dump in an opponent which often leads to capitulate.

For a while, I read an arcticle from Erle M. (in his book "Reflex Violence"). He wrote that all people on the world have the "animal/reptil brain" (as well as animals itselves). Fighting means to activate our "reptil brain" and to switch off our "thinking brain". We act like our instincts say us to act, and instincts say us "Don't fight - run away!". If people sense danger, most people will do what instincts is saying to them, they will run (like a rappid across a big field).

If we scream "AHHHHEEHHH" the attacker will sense danger and either wait (for one or two seconds) and then act or he will run away (or sometimes nothing happens with the attacker - but very seldom).

arnie
24th August 2002, 14:29
When we're exposed to threat our bodies have to react with either the "fight or flight" or "play dead" reaction.

Fight or flight is a big rush of adrenalin and stress hormones, that make you ready for action (sympathetic nervous system "kick") and puts other systems (e.g. digestion) on standby.

Play dead is when yous muscles get so tensed you freeze stiff and litterally can't move or inhibation (by whatever transmittor-substanse/hormone release) that makes you hyperrelaxed, deadlike, again unable to move.

These reactions, of course, we've inhereted from our ancestors.
They have little value in todays society, but are of great harm.
You see, if we dont use those hormones (to fight or flight) they are destructive, especially if we're frequently exposed (stressfull life).

This is one of martial arts training's bonuses, you burn those stress hormones like hell :-)

I'm not sure where or when it happened, but I feel I've gone a bit off topic here, please forgive me for that!

Ari Lappinen