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stewart73
26th August 2002, 04:57
Is anyone out there interested in Japanese incense? Or any incense for that matter.....;)

BigJon
26th August 2002, 05:35
I trained at a dojo that burned it alot. We were required to bring it once a month as a dojo "offering". One theory was that they burned it, so it would cover up the smell of sweaty people.I believe that it is a combination of cover up and a "trigger" of sorts. ( To promote a certain mindstate) I grew to enjoy it and now burn incense while at home, it relaxes me. (Also while I practice) Jon Gillespie

Soulend
9th September 2002, 04:13
I burn it too, it is very relaxing. I get it from Bugei (http://www.bugei.com/ushop/index.cgi?ID=SJ2OGE&task=show&cat=Incense), and especially like the 'Nokiba' type. Very earthy and natural-smelling, as opposed to the very sweet Indian type incense, which I find a little bit over-the-top in some cases. I don't know if it is normal for Japanese incense, but there is no stick, so you have to be very careful handling it - a bit fragile. The 'Friend of Pine' is a very nice one too.

Chris Li
9th September 2002, 09:09
Originally posted by stewart73
Is anyone out there interested in Japanese incense? Or any incense for that matter.....;)

In Japan, incense is usually burned as an offering to the dead, so for most Japanese the scent of incense is associated with death. Somewhat different from the west, where incense is associated with hippies, or the new age :).

Best,

Chris

Soulend
9th September 2002, 10:16
Originally posted by Chris Li


In Japan, incense is usually burned as an offering to the dead, so for most Japanese the scent of incense is associated with death. Somewhat different from the west, where incense is associated with hippies, or the new age :).

Best,

Chris

That is interesting, and a little surprising, considering the long history of Kodo, soradaki, incense games and parties in Japan. But I suppose such things may not be as popular as they once were. Isn't incense sometimes offered to kami in Shinto? Although this may be a Buddhist influence, I have read that this is sometimes done before the kamidana in the home as well as in jinja.

An interesting article on incense in Japan and China:

http://www.oller.net/lhearn.htm

Seems that historically, it was used for things we (and probably most modern Japanese) would consider kind of occult today.

Chris Li
9th September 2002, 12:49
Originally posted by Soulend


That is interesting, and a little surprising, considering the long history of Kodo, soradaki, incense games and parties in Japan. But I suppose such things may not be as popular as they once were.

Well, things have changed a little bit since the Heian era :).


Originally posted by Soulend

Isn't incense sometimes offered to kami in Shinto? Although this may be a Buddhist influence, I have read that this is sometimes done before the kamidana in the home as well as in jinja.

It's not unknown, but it would be fairly unusual.


Originally posted by Soulend
An interesting article on incense in Japan and China:

http://www.oller.net/lhearn.htm


The Japan that Hearn knew no longer exists. As well attempt to to talk about US culture based upon customs from the 1800's.

Best,

Chris

stewart73
9th September 2002, 14:59
Kodo (the way of incense) certainly didn't die in the Heian period, and although many Japanese associate incense with visits to their ancestors' graves, incense is experiencing a bit of a revival and is used in many people's houses. The type of incense used to honor the dead, and type used for freshening a room are also different (although I use both in my house). In Kyoto and Osaka there are many incense shops which sell all kinds of Japanese incense and accessories. Shoyeido is perhaps the most famous of these and imports huge amounts to the US and worldwide, as does Nippon Kodo. Check it out! :D

Soulend
10th September 2002, 02:47
Originally posted by Chris Li
The Japan that Hearn knew no longer exists. As well attempt to to talk about US culture based upon customs from the 1800's.


I wasn't trying to suggest that people were still trying to raise ghosts or anything using incense. I just thought it was an interesting bit of history.

Although things have changed just a hair :) since the 12th century, in a country where so many old arts are still practiced, I would have thought that even the average Japanese would have a wider view of incense - other than for funerals, etc. Guess not.

As Stewart said, there does seem to be a bit of resurgence in incense interest, if these post-Heian articles are correct:

http://www.jinjapan.org/trends/article/020424soc_r.html

http://research.berkeley.edu/haas_scholars/pastscholars/2000-2001/scholars/fredrickson.html

Baieido also makes very nice traditional incense, and even offers kodo ceremonies and classes (presented by Yoshiko Nakata) at Baieido's main office in Sakai City in Osaka. Must be very interesting.

P.S. Stewart, e-budo rules require that we sign our full names at the end of each post. You can configure your signature to appear automatically when you post in the user control panel.

Iron Clad Brute
13th September 2002, 01:20
Incence was introduced to Japan along with Buddhism for purification purposes. In India incence was used to purify a house and to provide a nice smell for visitors.

The ritual use of incence and of water in Koyasan Shingon Buddhism is derived from the ancient Indian custom of receiving a guest with water for washing his feet and incence to cover the bad smells of travelling.

When a ritual instrument of Shingon Buddhism is to be used (in a ritual) it is first held in the fumes of the incence rising from the large tripod incence burner to empower it (this is called kaji).

On a Shingon Buddhist altar there are six containers (rokki). Two containing water (sui), two containing dirt (chi), and two containing leaves (keman). They are arranged on either side of the incence burner (the burning of which represents air - fu). The water is sprinkled with a wooden wand called a sanjo, and this is also purified in the incence fumes before use.

In the centre of the altar is a large stack of wood for burning (ka).

In Shingon Buddhism incence represents purity, that is why it is burned at funerals and in front of mortuary tablets - to purify, not to "honour the dead." The belief is that departed spirits visit and are welcomed by the nice smelling, purifying incence.

In regards to incence being burned in front of kamidana, as Mr Li said, that would be unusual. Burning incence is purely a Buddhist thing (stemming from the various rituals) and has no connection to Shinto ritual. To purify in Shinto one uses a gohai.

Soulend said, "I have read that this is sometimes done before the kamidana in the home as well as in jinja." I believe that you have confused this with Buddhist butsudan, as an incence burner is not a prescribed article to be placed in front of a kamidana. The only objects to be placed in front of a kamidana are: a shimenawa, kagami, sakaki, tomyo, osonaemono, and kagaribitate. I would say that perhaps the article you read is wrong.

kokumo
14th September 2002, 15:48
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute


On a Shingon Buddhist altar there are six containers (rokki). Two containing water (sui), two containing dirt (chi), and two containing leaves (keman). They are arranged on either side of the incence burner (the burning of which represents air - fu). The water is sprinkled with a wooden wand called a sanjo, and this is also purified in the incence fumes before use.

In the centre of the altar is a large stack of wood for burning (ka).


Mr. Greeves:

It is often said that the mantrayana and vajrayana are only for those of keen discrimination, in which spirit I make the following observations.

While your points regarding the relationship between incense and Shinto practice are basically correct, and you have clearly done some reading in the relevant literature, Shingon ritual practice tends to be fairly detailed and specific; in both respects there appear to be anomolies in the foregoing. Which leads me to the point of asking: "What book was this description drawn from?" and "Does that text state which specifically Shingon ritual practice would be carried out on an altar such as the one you describe?"

Best regards,

Fred Little

Iron Clad Brute
14th September 2002, 16:14
Mr Little,

My information comes from my own observances, not from a book. My father-in-law is a practitioner of Koyasan Shingon, and I have picked up some things from watching him perform rituals.

Of course, my knowledge of Shingon rituals is not concise, nor vast, I am simply recalling what I have managed to remember. Although he would have it that I learn more about Shingon, I confess that I don't have the inclination. I have great respect for Shingon and in fact all religious beliefs.

While I have been correct in my description of the articles found on the altar during certain rituals, I admit that I am unable to recall the specific rituals. It wasn't my intention in this post to describe the relevant rituals anyway, but simply to point out that incence is used in Buddhist purification rituals. Some details that are irrelevant to this topic I didn't bother to mention.

You supposed that I had done some reading, may I ask, where would I read something that describes the ritual implements used in Shingon? Are there indeed books on the subject? My father-in-law insists that these things are secret and only to be shared by the initiated.

Best regards

kokumo
14th September 2002, 18:01
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
Mr Little,

My information comes from my own observances, not from a book. My father-in-law is a practitioner of Koyasan Shingon, and I have picked up some things from watching him perform rituals.

Of course, my knowledge of Shingon rituals is not concise, nor vast, I am simply recalling what I have managed to remember. Although he would have it that I learn more about Shingon, I confess that I don't have the inclination. I have great respect for Shingon and in fact all religious beliefs.

While I have been correct in my description of the articles found on the altar during certain rituals, I admit that I am unable to recall the specific rituals. It wasn't my intention in this post to describe the relevant rituals anyway, but simply to point out that incence is used in Buddhist purification rituals. Some details that are irrelevant to this topic I didn't bother to mention.

You supposed that I had done some reading, may I ask, where would I read something that describes the ritual implements used in Shingon? Are there indeed books on the subject? My father-in-law insists that these things are secret and only to be shared by the initiated.

Best regards

Dear Mr. Greeves:

If you are not an initiate but have "picked up some things by watching (your father-in-law) perform some rituals," you should be aware that you have been given a level of access to teachings and practices that is unusually high, though not unprecedented given the family relationship.

I would suggest to you, however, that what you saw and what you think you saw may be different in some particulars. Your father-in-law's insistence "that these things are secret and only to be shared by the initiated" is the standard position on such matters. As a result of this, the available literature in English is quite limited, and that which is available is, at best, incomplete, and at worst, riddled with inaccuracies that may or may not be intentional.

The book of most general interest, and also the most authoritative work available (although not without difficulties of presentation)is:

Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism, Taiko Yamasaki (ed. David Kidd & Yasuyoshi Morimoto, trans. and adapted by Richard & Cynthia Peterson), 1988. ISBN 1-888370-00-9. {This English text is based onMikkyo meiso to shinso shinri and Mikkyo meisoho.}

More explicit with regard to particulars of ritual, but also riddled with errors of fact, confusions of the author's own notes with authoritative commentary, and other problems of presentation is:

Tantric Art and Meditation, Michael Saso, 1990. Tendai Educational Foundation. ISBN 0-8248-1363-4. {As indicated by the publisher, this text deals with practice of the Homa Ritual in the related, but distinct, tradition of Tendai Mikkyo practice.}

This third text, title notwithstanding, is stronger on theory than practice. Like the first book, it has the virtue of having been written by a practitioner who seems to have had the authorization of his own lineage master to make this information more widely available:

Shingon Buddhism, Theory and Practice, Minoru Kiyota, Buddhist Books International; ASIN: 0914910094

Although based primarily on the evidence found in the sculptural tradition of Shingon-shu (as opposed to a combination of observation and oral instruction, which is the traditional and authoritative source of information in almost all cases) the following text remains the most authoritative text available containing information regarding the ritual implements and symbolic gestures of the Mikkyo traditions:

Mudra: A Study of Symbolic Gestures in Japanese Buddist Sculpture, E. Dale Saunders, 1960, Bollingen Series LVIII, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-09796-8.

Having provided the above references, I would be remiss if I did not say fairly clearly that trying to learn Shingon from these books is likely to be about as fruitful as trying to learn Katori Shinto Ryu from The Deity and the Sword.

The opportunity available to you is rare indeed, and your lack of inclination notwithstanding, the standard doctrinal response might be a suggestion that you consider the likelihood of the circumstances that have brought you to this opportunity very carefully. However, I know nothing of your particular situation and am mindful that there must be a certain degree of comfort and willingness to engage on the part of both the teacher and the student.

Best of luck to you in your various pursuits.

Fred Little

SBreheney
15th September 2002, 16:35
http://www.shingon.org/ritual/butsudan.html

Not dispositive of anything, but I thought the above link would be interesting to share.

Of course, this represents only the typical altar in the home, not a temple altar set up for a fire ritual or other service.

With the exception of the central images, it's not much different from the general set-up you'd find on the home altar of a Rinzaishu or Sotoshu adherent, or (AFAIK) Jodo Shinshu.

Soulend
16th September 2002, 04:19
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
In regards to incence being burned in front of kamidana, as Mr Li said, that would be unusual. Burning incence is purely a Buddhist thing (stemming from the various rituals) and has no connection to Shinto ritual. To purify in Shinto one uses a gohai.

Soulend said, "I have read that this is sometimes done before the kamidana in the home as well as in jinja." I believe that you have confused this with Buddhist butsudan, as an incence burner is not a prescribed article to be placed in front of a kamidana. The only objects to be placed in front of a kamidana are: a shimenawa, kagami, sakaki, tomyo, osonaemono, and kagaribitate. I would say that perhaps the article you read is wrong.

Thanks for the clarification. I understood that incense was more of a Buddhist thing, and I'm aware of the difference between a butsudan and a kamidana, but since there are quite a few references to incense used in conjunction with Shinto, I reasoned that since Shinto has been influenced quite a bit by Buddhism (for example, architecture of jinja, gates, and the addition of color in jinja and torii), that perhaps the incense offering was a carryover. Since Shinto and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive, and many Japanese hold beliefs from both religions, it does seem reasonable that some practices may cross over. From what I had read, the incense used in conjunction with Shinto was not for purification, as with the water, but as an offering to the kami, like the rice, sake, coins, oranges, paper, cloth, etc. normally offered.

I cannot find the article now, but seems that there is a lot of 'wrong' info on the web too, including Japanese sites that I would have thought would know what they're talking about:

Baieido, Japanese makers and sellers of incense for over 300 years (http://www.baieido.co.jp/english/page2.html)

Description of the Zeniarai Ugafuku Jinja (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~QM9T-KNDU/zeniarai.htm)

Mention of incense offering at kamidana (http://www.4j.lane.edu/~imamura/jpresentations.html)

Incense mentioned in connection with Shinto (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/highlights/010712_shinto.shtml)

Offering incense to kami (http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/japan/Religion/Religions_of_Japan.html)

Incense burned at Udo Shrine (http://www.christopherlydon.org/viewtopic.php?topic=603&forum=5)

Soulend
16th September 2002, 04:41
sorry..double post