Boken wha?

[nozomu]

Ok, I'm a little confused about all the different kinds of boken out there and if there's really a 'right' one to be using.

For instance, it seems like there's a variety of woods being used out there, with/without tsuba, different lengths of boken, different styles that the boken are fashioned for: like jigen ryu style or other styles, and things like suburito and so forth. Can to share your experiences? Thanks!

Ben Cook

[gendzwil]

Ask your sensei. If you're just swinging it around yourself, pick any one that you like except for the suburito.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all...
It really would depend on what you intended to use the Bokken for. If you wanted to try forms with an Uchitachi (Partner) then it would make more sense perhaps to look for Shinai (Fukuro Shinai also..)and avoid the Bokken...If you want to train in 'Tanren' or 'forging yourself' (Always better in Japanese..) you could maybe start with a heavier Bokken and develop the correct movements using that...It depends..
The variety of styles out there are really only commercial things that attract people like me...Unless you are actually in the Jikishinkage Ryu it makes little sense to use a Bokken that is staighter and heavier in your normal training....Using a 'normal' type works well...And if you have a partner they will appreciate the fact that your Bokken does not as easily break theirs! Nice if you want to keep on training...
As Neil pointed out...It is always better to ask your own Sensei for their opinion on what you should try...They know your strengths and needs better than anyone here..
HTH.
Abayo...

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by fifthchamber
If you want to train in 'Tanren' or 'forging yourself' (Always better in Japanese..) you could maybe start with a heavier Bokken and develop the correct movements using that...It depends..
Hardly anyone uses suburito for training these days. There's a theory in sports science that training with heavier tools develops a different skill set. Swinging with a weighted bat is not the same skill as swinging with a normal bat and can affect your batting average for the worse. Swinging with a suburi-to is essentially weight training and not much more related to swinging with a normal weight sword than overhead cable pulls.

[Charles Mahan]

Hardly anyone uses suburito for training these days.


I suspect that may be a suprise to an awful lot of people.

[nozomu]

Thanks for all in the input. Actually I think I'm at a loss here because I have yet to find a kenjutsu sensei in my area. I know of a few Aikido dojos that do some weapons training, but that seems more of a side study than a focus, which is not what I'm looking for.

Hence I have no sensei to ask about these kinds of things or kata to study for that matter. Ready to go full ahead, with no direction to follow I guess. I don't know if it would be beneficial to get used to the boken before I actually find someone to teach me or not. I'll have to figure out what works best for me I guess?

[Charles Mahan]

Berkley is about 30 minutes up the raod from Fremont right?

Checkout Andrej Diamandstein in Berkley. He does Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. I've had an oppurtunity to work out with him on one occassion before, and look forward to another oppurtunity in october. First rate instructor. Andrej is associated with the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei.

Checkout his excellent web page here:
http://www.iaido.org/

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
Berkley is about 30 minutes up the raod from Fremont right?
There's also a kendo dojo in Fremont, in fact there's a bunch in NoCal. See:

http://www.kendo-usa.org/statedojolist.htm#CA

[nozomu]

Andrej Diamandstein in Berkley. He does Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu

Funny you should mention him, because I just went to see him this last Saturday. I do have to admit, the iaido was impressive and it looked like a great place to learn iai, but I'm not sure it that's what I'm looking for; maybe as a starting point. I guess I was looking more for the uchitachi that was mentioned before or an actual kenjutsu style as opposed to iai or kendo. It's understandable that I haven't found any around me yet as perhaps I'm too specific in what I'm looking for?

If you guys don't mind me asking, where did everyone else start out when it comes to the sword arts and what were your goals? I've got an idea what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure I'm going to find it...

[fifthchamber]

Hi all.
I first started using a Bokken with training in Aikido. It went along with the Jo as a major focus of my training and although it was only a short time in Aikido it gave me an understanding of the 'basics' I guess...
From there it was mostly going over a over these points on my own..There were no Kenjutsu Dojo near me although plenty of Kendo Dojo and so I figured it was best to just focus on what I knew from Aikido...(Not too much but then how many variations are there in Kenjutsu? And I know there are varying details...But the point is the same..).
Up until I started with the Genbukan and Kokusai Jujutsu Renmai I was not really using Bokken for training. (Chinese arts...Tai Chi gave me an understanding of the Sabre in Chinese forms...Good fun too!)....The Genbukan has Kenjutsu as a fairly large chunk of the syllabus and along with Iai makes a very good way to start knowing Kenjutsu, Reiho, and how these all blend into each other (Or not!).
It does sound as though you are looking for a Koryu Kenjutsu art perhaps? If so I would put the odds against you. It is possible of course but far more of a search is required and this would also test both your sincerity and devotion to your goal I guess...
The MJER that was mentioned is a very good start for Ken work...I believe that the Ryu does have a large section of Kumitachi (Using Bokuto and paired training) work although it depends on the instructor of course. This is a good way in and an excellent way to 'decide' what you want...If you decide to stick with the idea you have first thats up to you...I personally would start the MJER though..You can always continue to look for what you want and you may find it in the Eishin Ryu...
Good luck anyway.;)
Abayo

[Charles Mahan]

Funny you should mention him, because I just went to see him this last Saturday. I do have to admit, the iaido was impressive and it looked like a great place to learn iai, but I'm not sure it that's what I'm looking for; maybe as a starting point. I guess I was looking more for the uchitachi that was mentioned before or an actual kenjutsu style as opposed to iai or kendo. It's understandable that I haven't found any around me yet as perhaps I'm too specific in what I'm looking for?

If you guys don't mind me asking, where did everyone else start out when it comes to the sword arts and what were your goals? I've got an idea what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure I'm going to find it...


MJER does in fact have a a strong kumitachi curriculum, but it typicaly is not taught at the early stages of training. It has never really been explicitly expressed, but from what I gather, kumitachi isn't taught until you have largely mastered kihon(basic principles of the style). Note I didn't say, come to a basic understanding of kihon. I said mastered. Why this is done is a matter for philosophers.

Do MJER. Stick with it for a few years, and sooner or later you will get to the kumitachi techniques. And when you get there you will already be a competent swordsman.

That said. Iai and MJER practice focuses on using real swords. A fundamental principle of Iai is that the sword starts in the saya. This of course necessitates a saya, which eliminates shinai, and largely eliminates boken as effective training tools. I know there are boken with Saya. They are used for MJER kumitachi practice. They just don't draw right. Better than Boken alone, but they just don't draw right. You cannot learn to cut properly with a boken alone. Bold statement perhaps, but I don't think too many will argue the point. Plenty will argue that you cannot learn to cut properly without doing tameshigiri, plenty of others would argue the counterpoint, but that's not relevant to this discussion. There are too many differences between katana and boken.

There is also a focus on precision cutting and movement, which is difficult if not impossible to really learn without steel, or a reasonable facimile. Because the style and the method of practice dictate shinken or iaito, there is a lot of solo practice in the system.

Does this mean the system consists of empty forms that force the practitioner through a series of empty movements?

No. All of the kata, even the most basic and impractical, have a scenario that accompanies them. You will spend a lot of time in class learning not only what you are doing in a particular kata, but what your opponent is doing. By concentrating on the kata as a two man encounter, you achieve a style of training which has a lot of the same benefits as training with a real partner. This becomes much more true the longer you train. As you commit kihon movements to muscle memory, and can take them out of your concious mind, you have more time to think about how what you are doing relates to the situation at hand. By the time you have kihon down and can perform kihon correctly, consistently, and without really thinking about it, you start to concentrate on the encounter as an actual combat simulation and not just a form. This point takes a few years to get to. I think I'm nearly there. Still a few aspects of Kesa-giri that I need to work out. It's taken me 5 years to reach this point. Don't get me wrong, I'll be working on kihon for the rest of my life, but I'm at least finally getting to the point where it doesn't take a lot of concious effort to perform kihon reasonably correctly. Now if I can just get all the other little details down...

It is a matter of personal preference I suppose. Thank you for considering MJER.

[fifthchamber]

QUITE!.....
Charles sir...My hat is off to you.:smilejapa One of the best summaries I have heard on the reasons to start Eishin Ryu...
'Nozomu'....I would seriously consider the option of Iaijutsu near you.
but if this doesn't convince you then nothing will...
Good luck and good training all.
Abayo.

[INFINOO]

Ben Cook: The right one for you may not be the right one for someone else. Go to a place where they sell bokken and pick out a wooden sword that "feels right". In my experience the best woods for Bokken are made from American hickory. Although I have made bokken out of purple heart and its pretty good to. Look for woods that are shock resistant and will stand up to hard use for long periods of time if maintained properly(oiled).
One important note*. Be carefull sanding exotic woods(or any wood for that matter) if you decide to make some of your own bokken, as many are really toxic and can be nasty on the lungs if the dust is breathed in.
When starting out take it easy, as swing a bokken can be hard on the wrist and shoulders.Be carefull not to over do it in the beginning.
I started swinging a bokken on my own, before I had a quailified sword teacher and have never regretted it. Although, many will warn against this unabashfull statement of independence in the JMA.
The nail that sticks up will be pounded down, ect...OO. Granted , I had plenty of experience with sticks of all sorts my whole life. I though why should a bokken be any different? So I say fear not, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

Regards


Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Cook,


... looked like a great place to learn iai, but I'm not sure it that's what I'm looking for... or an actual kenjutsu style as opposed to iai or kendo.

It sounds like you might like Shinkendo. It is not koryu kenjutsu, but is comprehensive and we emphasize partnered sparring a lot.

Our dojo are listed here:

http://www.shinkendo.com/dojomap.html

Also, please add your full real name to the signature section in your user profile. All posts should be signed, and this is the easiest way to do it.

Regards

[Finny]

A short article by Dr Friday on the different shapes and sizes of Bukuto is at:
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_friday_0302.htm

enjoy:)

[Chidokan]

I was given a very light weight Japanese oak bokken by my teacher, Iwata sensei,in May this year to help me use my hara better and use my arm muscles less, (a typical fault in Westerners apparently). For those who can buy them it is similar to the longer sword in a niten set. It would be no good for one on one training though, so I still use the heavier version for that.
Tachi Uchi No Kurai in MJER is not usually taught until about 5th dan on a SERIOUS minute detail basis, (although I find it useful in teaching beginners timing and distance) so you may have a long wait (where you learn the hard stuff like cutting properly etc).
If you want to hit someone with a big stick why not do kendo??;) At least you can't get hurt by someone who's not entirely sure what he's doing....

Tim Hamilton

[nozomu]

Thanks everyone for all the great input! I think I'm on my way to find what I'm looking for. And I've come across yet another bokken that's different from what I've seen before: the Kamiya Kashin ryu bokken. Very straight bokken.

Is there any sort of guide out there comparing the differences and the usages of the different style bokken? Like the Jigen style as say compared to the Nitto Ichi style or others?