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Bradenn
28th August 2002, 11:50
Hi
I was at my local bookshop a few days ago and saw an (apparently) new book by Serge Mol called "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan". Unfortunately it was sealed so I couldn't flip through it. Has anyone here read it? Any good? I'm not looking for techniques but rather an overview and histor of the various ryu e.g. Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu.
Thanks in advance.

-----------------
Braden Nicols

Alex Meehan
28th August 2002, 13:51
I purchased that book when it appeared some time ago, and it is an excellent read. It is well put together, has some really very nice photographs and offers an insight into the overall field of koryu Jujutsu.

As a Bujinkan member, though, I found his bias somewhat . . . interesting. Serge Mol gives a small mention (a few pages at the most) to a number of Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu lineages, yet manages to avoid making reference to the Bujinkan schools.

This is quite an achievement, considering the Bujinkan versions of these schools, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu and Kukishinden (Ryu) Happo Hiken, are by far and away the most well known and widely practiced variants and are generally recognised as authentic koryu. Serge Molís studied directly with Tanaka Fumon Soke, head of a variant of Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu, yet the lineage charts simply omit Takamatsu and his successor(s) so that it appears that Tanaka Fumon Sokeís school is the main line.

In what appears to be an otherwise well researched and well written book, this omission is conspicuous. That minor political gripe aside, Serge Molís book is a lovely thing in its own right and is well worth owning. There are very few quality books on Koryu budo out there, so new ones are to be encouraged I think.

fifthchamber
28th August 2002, 14:11
Hi all.
Ditto to the above post...Despite some 'missing' bits in the lineage lines contained in the books and a decided bias toward any Koryu associated with Tanaka Fumon Sensei the book is an excellent one for Jujutsu and well worth the money.
There are many sections on all aspects of Jujutsu and closer looks at quite a few of the bigger Ryuha around.
This one, Draegers works, and the Koryu Books trio would make an excellent base of writings on Koryu arts...Get it.
Abayo.

arnold11
28th August 2002, 18:37
I see several posts claiming that Mol, overlooked the Bujinkan schools. Now it can be argued that many of the schools arent there because they arent recognized at legitimate lineages by anyone outside of the Bujinkan. THIS IS NOT A SLAM. Just a statement of fact. However......look in the beginning of the book- page xii
Grandmaster Tanaka Fumon's credential include

Kukishin Ryu 19th Soke
Koto Ryu Soke Dairi
ShindenFudo Ryu Soke Dairi

As a Bujinkan practioner, I find these claims very interesting....

Arnold Davies

George Kohler
28th August 2002, 18:41
Originally posted by arnold11

Koto Ryu Soke Dairi
ShindenFudo Ryu Soke Dairi


From what I understand, Tanaka Fumon is associated with Kaminaga Shigemi, one of Ueno Takashi sensei's students.

Alex Meehan
28th August 2002, 20:43
>>> Now it can be argued that many of the schools arent there because they arent recognized at legitimate lineages by anyone outside of the Bujinkan.<<<<

Hmmm, well, the theory that the reason Mol doesnít mention the Bujinkan Schools is that they are not recognised doesnít really add up. The most recent lineage charts I have seen for the schools relating to Tanaka Fumon and Kaminaga Shigemi, printed in the Ueno Takashi Sensei 20th Anniversary Memorial booklet (reprinted 2002), state that he (Kaminaga Shigemi) inherited Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu from Ueno Takashi, who got it from Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Likewise for:

Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Jujutsu
Hontai Kishin Chosui Ryu Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu (note, this seems to be a totally different school to Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu)
Koto Ryu Koppojutsu

So clearly, itís not that the schools arenít recognised by other groups, because he claims the same source for his schools as we do Ė Takamatsu Sensei.

Instead it seems that Kaminaga Shigemi disputes some of the soke-ships held by Hatsumi Sensei (and Tanemura Sensei, it seems, as if I am not mistaken, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu is one of the schools Tanemura Sensei claims to have inherited from Sato Kinbei Sensei).

Itís also probably worth noting that many teachers of the Kuki-derived arts tend to refer to their schools as Kukishin Ryu as a kind of shorthand, although the actual name may be different. For example, Hatsumi Sensei often does this, when his school is called Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu. The Kuki family art, Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, also does this. In fact, I donít think there is an actual Kukishin Ryu. (I could be wrong though).

Also mentioned in the same booklet is Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, although the implication is that Ueno Takashi was not Soke, but rather a Menkyo holder. Interestingly, the same booklet lists Hatsumi Masaaki Sensei as a Menkyo Kaiden holder in Shinto Tenshin Ryu Kenpo Jojutsu Toritejutsu Denkei and Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho.

Does anyone know what Soke Dairi means?

Alex Meehan

George Kohler
28th August 2002, 21:04
Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Instead it seems that Kaminaga Shigemi disputes some of the soke-ships held by Hatsumi Sensei (and Tanemura Sensei, it seems, as if I am not mistaken, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu is one of the schools Tanemura Sensei claims to have inherited from Sato Kinbei Sensei).

Just for clarification, Tanemura sensei does not dispute Hatsumi sensei as being soke of Takagi Yoshin ryu jutaijutsu.

From what I understand, Kaminaga only disputed that Hatsumi sensei's TYR should be called jutaijutsu and not jujutsu. I think this dispute was to Hiden's editor after Hatsumi sensei's TYR was called jujutsu in a article.

John Lindsey
28th August 2002, 21:37
Tanaka Fumon is associated with Kaminaga Shigemi,

Two years ago I was shown an anonymous letter that was sent to people who participated in that embu for Ueno a few years ago. It is suspected that this person used the embu brochure to get the names of those who were there. In this letter, the author attempts to show that Tanaka Fumon and Kaminaga are rogue martial artists who have formed their own budo organization and teach low class martial arts. I remember something about Kaminaga being described as a ďshort, bald and ugly man.Ē It is suspected that the author of this letter is someone in the media, possibly connected to Hiden Journal or at least a professional writer. The letter was supposedly well written. I never heard who this was, but I think it happened after Kaminaga wrote to Hiden Journal and complained about Hatsumi S. using the term Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu. Maybe Kaminaga pissed off someone?

What was surprising was the level of detail that this author knew about both of these teacherís history, to include accusations of documents that might not be what they are supposed to be. This was a well thought out attack on these two gentlemen. But, the author didnít have the guts to sign his name, so that does hurt his message.

While I am neutral in my regard for these teachers, I just wanted to point out this little story. Anyone else hear about this letter?

George Kohler
29th August 2002, 04:19
Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Does anyone know what Soke Dairi means?

I think it means "representative of the headmaster."

George Kohler
29th August 2002, 04:37
Originally posted by Alex Meehan
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu (note, this seems to be a totally different school to Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu)

Also mentioned in the same booklet is Shinden Fudo Ryu Kenpo, although the implication is that Ueno Takashi was not Soke, but rather a Menkyo holder.

By comparing the list of techniques of SFR taijutsu and SFR jutaijutsu (not to be confused with SFR dakentaijutsu), it appears that they may be the same school. Both have the same kamae and kata, but I could be wrong.

Ueno Takashi sensei learned SFR kenpo from another person, not associated with Takamatsu sensei.

Daruma
29th August 2002, 05:28
Dairi Generally translates as Assistant or representive,

ghp
29th August 2002, 05:47
"...Dairi Generally translates as Assistant or representive,..."

"...I think it means "representative of the headmaster..."Yes, both responses are correct. Here in the US, though, we're (sadly) more accustomed to its bastardized form, Soke-dai, as used by groups thinking it means "designated inheritor"!

There also could be more than one soke-dairi; and I suppose a dairi might later be selected to succeed the soke -- but it's not a "done deal", or so I believe. After all, the dairi are those trusted "lieutenants" who "stand in lieu of" the soke for administrative and/or policy matters.

Regards,
Guy

ghp
29th August 2002, 06:00
I need to qualify a statement I made:
"There also could be more than one soke-dairi;..." If I'm not mistaken, Daitoryu had a number of "soke-dairi" during Takeda Sokaku's later years, although I don't think they used the actual term "soke dairi." I think they used a term similar to kyoju-dairi. I saw a photo in "Hiden Koryu Bujutsu" years back showing a Daitoryu kanban stating something like that.

Any Daitoryu-Dudes out there who can confirm or deny my statement? Although I hate being corrected -- :D -- I hate giving out incorrect information even [b]more!

Cheers,
Guy

Kendoguy9
29th August 2002, 12:01
hello all,

I can write more on this when I have more time (I have to be at work in just a few min.). But yes in Daito-ryu there is something called a kyoju dairi. it is a special teaching license granted. It means that the person with the kyoju dairi may teach in place of the headmaster ANYWHERE. Officially no one is allowed to teach outside of their own dojo without one ie. no seminars or other open formats. The term soke dairi is more recent and has only been awarded to Kondo Katsuyuki sensei. Takeda Tokimune is the first person to call himself soke of Daito-ryu. His father refered to himself as Somucho and Honbucho, titles Kondo sensei has claimed because he is the ONLY person who knows ALL of the mainline Daito-ryu, but is not a Takeda family member and cannot accept the title soke. I hope this helps a little for more information check out some of Mr. Stan Pranin's works... he has great info on Daito-ryu.

gambatte!!!

Chris Li
29th August 2002, 12:38
Originally posted by Kendoguy9
hello all,

I can write more on this when I have more time (I have to be at work in just a few min.). But yes in Daito-ryu there is something called a kyoju dairi. it is a special teaching license granted. It means that the person with the kyoju dairi may teach in place of the headmaster ANYWHERE. Officially no one is allowed to teach outside of their own dojo without one ie. no seminars or other open formats. The term soke dairi is more recent and has only been awarded to Kondo Katsuyuki sensei. Takeda Tokimune is the first person to call himself soke of Daito-ryu.


All pretty much accurate.


Originally posted by Kendoguy9
His father refered to himself as Somucho and Honbucho, titles Kondo sensei has claimed because he is the ONLY person who knows ALL of the mainline Daito-ryu, but is not a Takeda family member and cannot accept the title soke.

Doesn't the Takumakai use those titles as well? Anyway, yes, Kondo is pretty much alone in the mainline, despite the fact that there are a number of folks who try to dispute that. However, I think that it's important to note that there are at least three other clear and undisputed Daito-ryu schools with lineages direct to Sokaku Takeda, so Kondo is hardly the only source of Daito-ryu extant today.

Best,

Chris

Alex Meehan
29th August 2002, 12:47
Originally posted by John Lindsey


The letter was supposedly well written. I never heard who this was, but I think it happened after Kaminaga wrote to Hiden Journal and complained about Hatsumi S. using the term Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu. Maybe Kaminaga pissed off someone?



This sounds like an honest enough mistake. I've never seen Hatsumi Sensei formally refer to his art this way, and it seems likely that either a journlaist made a mistake or, possibly, Hatsumi Sensei used that expression in conversation. Either way, I think it is clear that Hatsumi Sensei doesn't claim this school, so it seems fairly over the top for Kaminaga to write and complain about that point, when it seems he is disputing Hatsumi Sensei's claims to Koto Ryu and others. After all, it's not like Sensei is a shirking violet about his budo credentials. I mean, he's only been claiming these titles for forty or fifty years.

Alex Meehan

Kendoguy9
29th August 2002, 19:10
hello all,

To respond more directly to Guy's question yes there were more then one kyoju dairi given out by Sokaku Takeda... I think it was around 40. His son Tokimune I think only gave one kyoju dairi and that was to Kondo sensei. The kyoju dairi represents a hell of a lot of study into the art of Daito-ryu. One must master 118 hiden mokuroku, 53 ura and omote Aiki no jutsu, Hiden Ogi 36 ura and omote, Goshin yo no te 84 at three levels jo, chu and ge (I do not understand the finer details of what exactly jo, chu and ge refer to) and sometimes Daito-ryu nito-ryu Hiden (you got me how many there are I think I read 16 but who knows?). Not many of us can even get the hiden mokuroku. After all of this you need 447 kaishaku soden and 88 more for menkyo kaiden.

To answer Chris; I have no idea about the Takumakai. I don't really know anything about them other then the basic history stuff from Stan Pranin and a few demos I've seen on tape. And you are right there are other Daito-ryu groups with links to Sokaku Takeda. I think Sokaku gave out three menkyo kaiden, Takuma Hisa, Kodo Horikawa, and Masao Tonedate. Sagawa Yukiyoshi although I don't think he got a menkyo kaiden was very skilled from what I have heard. After he died one of his students actually took on a Western student too. I don't practice with any of these branches so my guess is as good as yours.

Just to throw out a plug real quick too since we are on Daito-ryu, Kondo Katsuyuki sensei the head of mainline Daito-ryu will be here in Baltimore Maryland Oct. 19th and 20th. If you want to check it out, it's worth it. Myself and three other students will be testing for Shodan the night before the seminar as well, so Sensei should be fired up at the seminar (fired up= giving away lots of great waza). check out:
http://www.aikimartialarts.com/daitoryu-seminar.shtml

gambatte!!!

Nathan Scott
29th August 2002, 20:59
Hi Guy,

I believe the kanji for Kyoju in this case is that of "teacher; professsor". The context of dairi is that of substitute.

In Daito ryu, during Takeda Sokaku's time, there was only one "teacher", and that was him - the headmaster. This is common to many koryu arts.

However, Sokaku was fairly innovative in teaching method. He chose to teach all around Japan rather than, for the most part, settle down in one area and wait for people to come to him. As such, he awarded a substitute teachers license to certain individuals so that they could continue the teachings in his absense. These Kyoju Dairi licenses also typically included an agreement to send him a certain amount of money upon receiving new students. Essentially, he was creating a branch/shibu system.

I've heard that, like the Soke Dairi, the Kyoju Dairi is either considered to be expired once the head teacher dies, and/or that the Kyoju Dairi has an expiration date written on it.

The one for Ueshiba Sensei does not have an expiration date written on it.

BTW, Kondo Sensei was awared Soke Dairi when Tokimune Sensei had become ill, so that he and one of his daughters (of whom he granted "Soke Hosa" - assistant to the headmaster) could handle the administrative affairs while he was incapacitated.

Sagawa Sensei had been issued Kyoju Dairi, but was not issued Menkyo Kaiden. I'm not sure why.

Hakaru Mori Sensei of the Takumakai was awarded the position of Somucho (General Affairs Director) by, I believe, Takuma Hisa Sensei. The Somucho position is relative to the Takumakai only, not Daito ryu in general, and the Takumakai and mainline maintain cooperative and friendly relations.

Kondo Sensei holds the legal rights to the name Daito ryu, and is generally recognized as being the current headmaster. However, the other branches founded by direct students of Sokaku Sensei (Kondo Sensei's teacher's teacher) share polite relations with him and, Kondo Sensei does not have issues with them using the name Daito ryu.

HTH,

ghp
30th August 2002, 01:02
Nathan, Chris, Christopher, and everyone else --

Thanks for the in-depth explanations of Kyoju-dairi. I really wonder how you guys can keep all that information in your heads -- with me, I've got to keep a finger in one ear so stuff doesn't flow out!

Thanks,
Guy

CKohalyk
30th August 2002, 02:32
Hi all,

To sort of get back to the original question, if you want Mol's book, get it from a library. There is lots of interesting info, but there is also a lot of "interesting" info (if you get my drift).

I had the opportuniy to visit Tanaka Fumon a few months ago while accompanying a sword teacher in his investigations of various nodachi-related topics. Man alive. That is all I can say without causing a flame war. He gave me his card which indicated that he is the soke or soke-dairi of about 12 different schools (including one entry for some kind of ninpo), and we had to leave after an hour because he had to teach his kid's iai class (I think it was ages 6-10 that night).
I will keep my comments to myself.

As far as the Takumakai is concerned, Hisa-sensei gave out some kyoujuu dairi, which complicates the political mess that the Takumakai is in now. Also, that is the first time I have ever heard of three menkyo kaiden handed out by Sokaku... Everybody agrees on one, there may have been a second, but I have NEVER heard of a third. All this MK stuff has been beaten to death. So an e-Budo search to find out more.

Good luck,

CK

Chris Li
30th August 2002, 02:50
Originally posted by CKohalyk
As far as the Takumakai is concerned, Hisa-sensei gave out some kyoujuu dairi, which complicates the political mess that the Takumakai is in now. Also, that is the first time I have ever heard of three menkyo kaiden handed out by Sokaku... Everybody agrees on one, there may have been a second, but I have NEVER heard of a third. All this MK stuff has been beaten to death. So an e-Budo search to find out more.

IIRC, Hisa gave out menkyo kaiden as well...

Anyway, one menkyo kaiden to Takuma Hisa, one to Masao Tonedate of the Asahi Shinbun (which was honorary as I understand it), and one (sort of) to Kodo Horikawa. As I understand the one to Kodo Horikawa it was approved by Sokaku but actually issued by Tokimune after Sokaku's death, but I may well be mistaken on the technicalities.

Best,

Chris

CKohalyk
30th August 2002, 02:56
Originally posted by Chris Li


IIRC, Hisa gave out menkyo kaiden as well...


Chris

To who???


From Sokaku to Kodo:
Oh yeah, the post-humous one. I remember now.

Chris Li
30th August 2002, 03:04
Originally posted by CKohalyk


To who???


From Sokaku to Kodo:
Oh yeah, the post-humous one. I remember now.

Tsuruyama Kozui, at least, although there's some dispute as to whether or not it was actually awarded. There was also a group of 5 (?) other folks that he apparently intended to award a menkyo kaiden to, but I don't know if that ever actually came to pass...

Best,

Chris

Bradenn
13th September 2002, 12:55
I bought this book, read through it in disbelief and then returned it for a refund the very next day.

There was absolutely no mention of Hatsumi-sensei in the whole book (or Takamatsu-sensei as far as I saw). Even though it discussed Takagi Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Kukishin Ryu etc

Shinden Fudo Ryu got a tiny mention but again no trace of Hatsumi or Takamatsu.

Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu received a few words, but only to say that these types of schools are considered to be on the fringes.

This is the first martial arts book that I have ever bought and then returned.

----------------
Braden Nicols

R Erman
14th September 2002, 01:45
Personally I enjoyed the book as a somewhat historically accurate look at classical jujutsu.

I think its nice to see any of the Takamatsu-den arts(or related alternate lineages) given notice along with less controversial ryuha. Personally, I think that's the closest in acceptance we can hope for in the koryu circles unitl some of the "old guard" passes.

That aside, yeah, saying something like "schools that include koppojutsu and kosshijutsu in their curricula occupy a marginal position...usually situated within the realm of ninjutsu" is kind of a not-so-subtle insult to those of us who practice these traditions.

But, Takamatsu was mentioned as one of the four licensed students of Ishiya Takeo Masatsugu. And then it goes on with no mention of Takamatsu's role in passing these systems down along his own line, or his importance in restoring/reuniting the Kuki family with its own system(s).

It does however give credence to the fact that Kukishin ryu and Takagi ryu have a long history of licensing more than one student, and occaisonally changing the name of the school slightly when doing this. There is even a short list of the different names of the differing branches of these two ryu.

If I'm not mistaken the names of the separate-but-related lineages taught in bujinkan and genbukan are given in this list(page 203).

fifthchamber
14th September 2002, 15:41
Hi all.
I enjoyed the book personally. Although it has an aspect on it to a degree I believe that there is enough out there to find out and that this book added another point of view to the already quite complex school headship system in the arts mentioned and the others in the book.
Quite honestly I think any book published in English that covers the less 'obvious' arts in Japan to any depth is well worth my support. There is a lot more written in Japanese that can be combined with these other lines to form something closer to the truth here..
The Ueno Sensei tribute would be a good start if you can get it still (Try EBay?) as it also comes largely from the Kaminaga Shigemi line through Ueno Takashi Sensei and his line...This is only a start but there are not enough books in English that cover in any real kind of depth this subject...It is getting a lot better but any good ones deserve the credit IMHO...:o
Everyone has a perspective on things and by listening to many the rest can be better ordered into something a little closer to 'Reality'...The more the better.
Abayo