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WJ55
30th August 2002, 20:58
Hello,

I was wondering if some of you could shed some light on some possible escapes from a rear naked choke, standing or sitting. If it doesn't sound too familiar, it's more or less a figure 4 choke from behind (the 'ol sleeper hold you've seen umpteenth times in pro wrestling). Hadaka Jime is the name for any Judoka reading this.

I'm sure if any of you have been involved in a common scuffle or have witnessed a fight, this particular technique can be somewhat commonplace. Worse yet, when applied to the trachea, which is the most likely scenario at the hands of an untrained attacker, this can become a very dangerous situation, if even by accident.

Thank you in advance for your consideration,

Walt Jennings

PS: I posted this earlier in the Jujutsu and Judo forums, but since it was dealing with aspects of common self defense, I was interested to hear what you guys have to say, since you may have relevant experience in dealing with it (CQC, military, law enforcement,etc.)

Matt Larsen
30th August 2002, 22:01
Here is some stuff from standing.

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch8.htm#p1

From the ground you either turn in to it to unwind it, or pull your head through the armpit. Either way you use the ground to scrape him off of your back, escape through the legs and then attempt to gain the top position.

Matt Larsen

meat
31st August 2002, 13:19
Those techniques that Matt posted are the same ones we learn in my jujutsu class. They work well :D

INFINOO
2nd September 2002, 01:00
If the person appling the rear naked choke has his "hooks in"(legs wrapped around your waist) grab his foot with the same side hand and place your elbow into the inside of the leg. Pull the foot(grab up near the toes) to the inside and up towards his knee as you dig the elbow into the inside of the leg below his knee. If you get the leverage and fulcrum right, the pain is so intense the person applying the choke may let go right away. If not as I found out, he/she will let go a end up with a limp. When we where working on this tech a couple of weeks ago I was stubborn so now my leg is still killing me:D.
As far as the street or your kitchen for that matter goes this type of situation(rear naked choke) is a good as reason as any to train in the rapid deployment of a one handed folder/s or short blade quick draw fixed blades. Rounded tips and blunted edges for trainging please:cool: When/if you become comfortable and proficient in your getting the knife out and into play, the idea of carrying at least one blade on either side of the body will makes a whole lot of sense. Depending on your dress/uniform life style choice , maby more. After deployment(a can of worms in the heat of the battle) you may find your basic standard grip(hammer) with the "blade in" to cut and pick on the pull using contact cutting meathods work as good as any . At RCI we advocate contact cutting on the pull in these situations to minimise the risk of cutting your self. If possible use the other hand to reinforce your blade hand for more power and controll and/or "peel" the offending limbs(finger work good to)untill you can faciliate an escape. Given the real possibility of multibal opponents on the street/kitchen floor, once your free from the choke, get to your feet ASAP.
Its easy to say the best way of escaping the rear naked mount is never gettting into that situation in the first place :rolleyes:. However, as most of the world knows by now, ground fighting happens. Given that no one said(well not me ,anyway) you had to fight fair or empty handed. After all we have the opposable thumb for a reason. The fight is the fight for your life. Do what you got to do. Do da do.
NOTE* When training in these types of scenarios always wear eye protection and proper rounded pointed non sharpened training drones. Even "bluntys" can cause "serious injury even death" if misused. Always train with care and respect for your training partners. Good ones are hard to come by. From there "first get good, than get fast".

Regards

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary Alberta Canada

Ken Good
2nd September 2002, 03:18
I think the foundation of successfully escaping the rear choke lies in staying as relaxed as possible regardless of the technical approach to the escape. Keep your breathing going, do not let it collapse. Short and fast rather than deep and heaving.

Additionally rather than concentrate solely on the choke itself and work on the top, look for and find the gaps that exist in the bottom of the relationship, primarily looking to face some way, some how.

Standing offers much more mobility with your hips, legs, and feet. Once you are seated on the ground with the opponent attempting to control your hips, it’s obviously a longer road.

Couple of favorites technical approaches:

Choke + legs + on the ground + he’s on my back + his back on the ground

I use one hand to roll the opponent’s radial bone down. I use my middle finger and place it in crook of the elbow that is right under your chin. Work it down the forearm a bit. Although my fingers are on his radius, I pull from deep down in my lats and scapula to apply downward and rotational pressure. I use skeletal alignment rather than muscles to keep the pressure applied. This can pay important dividends if this ends up going a while. Now that I have a bit of time and space, I find a slot to place one of my carotid arties. If you panic or thrash, one free artery will not supply enough oxygen to continue the fight. (This is an O2 management situation!) This simple rolling away of the radius bone can often result in the opponent trying harder and harder to finish only to find his forearms are totally blown out.

With the other hand I can access a weapon (if you have one) or start working on one of the legs that are holding you in place. I can also use the free hand to start working on his other hand. Turn and face. I try and turn outboard most on the time as inboard often tightens the choke…not something I am interested in.

Choke + on the ground + he’s on my back + I am facing the ground

As the opponent is attempting put his hooks in for hip control with his legs and feet, I dip my head, raise my back and create a front triangulation point that he will fall toward. I thread my fingers over his forearm from underneath (again my middle finger in the crook of the elbow), and buck him forward. If I turn him, I hold on to what I have and a start working for that arm. As he defends it, opportunities open.


Choke Standing:

Immediately use the middle finger to roll the radius again. Pivot your hips while holding what you have. Keep your head close and swing his elbow under. Reach over his face/head with your free hand and dump him on the back of his head for Excedrin headache number 6. (As in getting your head smashed on the concrete from 6 feet up tends to hurt)

tmanifold
2nd September 2002, 22:36
I have always done it this way.


Grab the arm with one hand and try to create a little space. At the same time turn you head a little to the elbow. While your doing this, HIT,HIT, HIT. Hit anything you can get at. Rip off his left nut and put it in your pocket, anything. This should force him to let go at least enough to pop your head out.


Tony

Jeff Cook
3rd September 2002, 22:39
Here's two from my website, one ending with an ankle lock: http://www.wabujitsu.com/wabujitsu/tech3.htm

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu