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Bradenn
3rd September 2002, 16:27
Having studied classical Jujutsu for several years and having joined the Bujinkan a couple years ago, it is clear to me that Hatsumi-sensei is an extraordinary budoka. Seeing his incredible movement and reading some of the books he has written tells me that this is a living legend. To me he is as great an artist and innovator as Morihei Ueshiba was. I'm sure most of us in the Bujinkan will agree. I'm curious about whether he is very well-known in Japan itself and whether he has received the "national treasure" status that Ueshiba did?

I know he has received plenty of awards from organisations in the West, but is he as greatly-respected by other Japanese masters? Or does the Japanese martial arts community view him as only one of many great artists?

----------------
Braden Nicols

paolo_italy
3rd September 2002, 17:26
hello,

I've read somewhere that many famous koryu leaders have doubts about the autenticity of the titles of Hatsumi Sensei.

I do not know if this is the common opinion.

Cheers,

Paolo

John Lindsey
3rd September 2002, 18:17
While he has received many honors, including the Emperor, I don't think he has ever been given a title of being a national treasure.

Jenny1000
3rd September 2002, 21:30
it's marketing 101 all over again

Jenny Lynn

Bradenn
4th September 2002, 13:00
Originally posted by paolo_italy
hello,

I've read somewhere that many famous koryu leaders have doubts about the autenticity of the titles of Hatsumi Sensei.

I do not know if this is the common opinion.

Cheers,

Paolo

I have heard this before several times.
However, I believe it is irrelevant in this context.
Ueshiba's Aikido was not koryu either. IIRC, he developed it based on his previous martial arts (including Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu), but said that it was more strongly influenced by the Omoto-kyo religion.
So Ueshiba was greatly revered and declared a national treasure even though he was not soke of any koryu art.

So what I am really asking is whether Hatsumi-sensei has attained that same level of respect in Japan for what he has achieved in terms of his personal ability, his historical knowledge, his evolution and synthesis of Budo Taijutsu, his unique way of teaching and his opening up Ninpo to the world and NOT because he is or isn't teaching koryu.

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Braden Nicols

The Tengu
4th September 2002, 16:31
I have heard before that Hatsumi Sensei has received the title of ningen kokuho, but I am unable to find an authoritative source of information on the Internet to verify this.

Tamdhu
4th September 2002, 18:29
I'm not sure whether or not Hatsumi Soke has the 'national treasure' status of which you are speaking, but he has been honored by his own country for his achievements in cultural exchange:

http://www.bujinkansf.org/hatsumi/awardframe.html

red_fists
4th September 2002, 22:07
Hi.

I think he was ecognised as a "national treasure" for upholding and spreading japanese tradition.

There are many "national treasures" in Japan like Kimono-makers and other traditional craftsmen.

Cheers.

John Lindsey
4th September 2002, 22:16
This topic was discussed at length a few years ago on the old Ninpo-L email list. The rumor was most probably started by a Westerner, since Hatsumi S. nor any of the Japanese shihan has never suggested this, to be best of my knowledge. While he has received many high honors, this is not one of them.

I thought the national treasure status was also given to arts that for economical reasons were on the verge of extinction.

George Kohler
4th September 2002, 22:25
Originally posted by John Lindsey
The rumor was most probably started by a Westerner, since Hatsumi S. nor any of the Japanese shihan has never suggested this, to be best of my knowledge.

The first time I heard this was in a article by Ilan Gattegno during the mid 80's in the Ninja magazine.

George Kohler
4th September 2002, 22:27
Here is the article.

My Six Years with Hatsumi Sensei (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mahoutsukai/archive/6years.html)

Iron Clad Brute
8th September 2002, 03:09
The many Japanese that I have trained with all hate Hatsumi to death. They don't believe his claims and just laugh at his "ninjutsu" stuff.

I have seen (and have on tape) quite a few TV articles where Hatsumi and his stuff is discussed and made fun of! Most of the time they just can't stop laughing and saying, "oh, so this is a ninja huh?"

Mentioning Hatsumi at a koryu school will usually end up with the teacher no longer taking you seriously or not even talking to you.

These are my experiences in Japan, not necessarily my opinions.

And no, Hatsumi DOES NOT HAVE NATIONAL TREASURE STATUS. As a martial artist of great skill, perhaps he should have this bestowed upon him. But, surley the "ninja" people will use this in their arguments that Hatsumi is a legitimate ninjutsu teacher. Just like with his Emperors award for cultural exchange.

Bradenn
10th September 2002, 10:59
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
The many Japanese that I have trained with all hate Hatsumi to death. They don't believe his claims and just laugh at his "ninjutsu" stuff.

.


"Hate to death"?
That's a very strong choice of words.
Do they say that he and his abilities are no good in general or do they simply disbelieve the Ninja stuff? As far as I know, the Ninjutsu dimension is only a small part of Hatsumi-sensei's art. What about the Samurai arts that he is Soke of?

Who are these Japanese that you refer to? I'm not asking for names, but are they high level teachers, shihan level, soke of ryu etc? No names necessary.

By implication, these people are also dissing Manaka-sensei and Tanemura-sensei as their lineage comes via Hatsumi-sensei.

Anyway, as long as we are getting good training on the mat, these politics don't bother me too much. It's just a shame that people have to scoff at something just because it doesn't fit their own views.

----------------
Braden Nicols

paolo_italy
10th September 2002, 11:20
hello,

as far as I know, among the 9 ryuha, some respect is tributed only to takagi yoshin ryu and (but less) kukishinden ryu, maybe because these two are the most similar to other "popular" koryu.

koto ryu and gyokko ryu are seen as minor schools of minor branches of jujutsu.

togakure ryu is seen more or less like a museum stuff.

shindenfudo ryu and gikan ryu: besides us (bujinkan) and other "friends", no mention. togakure is just seen as a museum stuff. kumogakure and gyokushin: no evidence...

but, who really cares? are you satisfied of your own study/path? If so, such discussions are just a waste of time, IMHO.

paolo rossi

10th September 2002, 11:59
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
The many Japanese that I have trained with all hate Hatsumi to death. They don't believe his claims and just laugh at his "ninjutsu" stuff.

I have heard similar stories like this and also none of the respected Koryu Org. in Japan will let him join.


Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
And no, Hatsumi DOES NOT HAVE NATIONAL TREASURE STATUS. As a martial artist of great skill, perhaps he should have this bestowed upon him. But, surley the "ninja" people will use this in their arguments that Hatsumi is a legitimate ninjutsu teacher. Just like with his Emperors award for cultural exchange.


"Masaaki Hatsumi, founder and grandmaster of the Bujinkan Dojo, has been awarded the International Culture Award by the Japanese government. The award, the highest honor given for cultural exchange, was presented to Dr. Hatsumi by a member of the Imperial Household on November 22, 1999."

First off it says was given by a member of the Imperial House Hold, not the Emperor. Many awards are given out every year by the Imperial House Hold. To be honest it is doubtful that the Emperor would personally give an award to any martial artist...........might have something to do with that whole WWII bugaboo thing.
The Emperor's awards are graded. I think there is only 8, I will have to check.
My ex-boss received the Kun san to-Third Order of Merit. I was actually allowed to attend the ceremony.
A bit of history on Imperial Awards:

The awarding of Orders, Ranks and Decorations of Honor dates back to the Taiho Code of 701; however, the present system of Imperial Decorations and Medals of Honor was first established in Japan in the 1870s in general correspondence to systems then current in Western European countries for royal recognition of outstanding individuals. Categories were expanded in 1888 to include women and in 1937 to include broader cultural achievement awards for both men and women.

Japanese Decorations and Orders consist of:

*The Order of the Chrysanthemum (Kikkasho) for royalty and heads of state;

*The Order of the Rising Sun (Kyokujitsusho) (for men) for former prime ministers, heads of political parties, ambassadors and university professors of eminence;

*The Order of the Precious Crown (Hokansho) (for women) ranks with the Order of the Rising Sun for men if the recipient is non-royalty. This Order in Rank No. 1 is currently worn by Empress Michiko;

*The Order of the Sacred Treasure (Zuihosho) for former judges, members of the diet, ambassadors and academics (now for men and women); and

*The Order of Culture (Bunka kunsho) for contributions to arts, letters and culture.

All but the Order of Culture have Ranks 1 to 8.

Peter Holden
10th September 2002, 13:39
Hatsumi-sensei is the first martial artist to receive the Shakai Bunka Korosho, well the international version anyway.

Other budoka have previously won the medal but the medal and sash are only given to those who have made some achievement in the promotion of Japanese culture overseas as well as at home. AS stated before Hatsumi-sensei is the only budoka to have achieved this.

http://www.winjutsu.com/gifs/Hatsumi-Medal.jpg

I don't know if the emperor personally presented him with the award but I know that after the cermony there was some sort of function in which the emperor participated.

Hatsumi-sensei commented that this was their second meeting, the first being when he provided an "Imperial Discourse on Ninpo" for the then crown prince (current emperor).

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bujinkanbrisbane/emperor.jpg

All this business about Hatsumi-sensei not being respected in Japan is rubbish. He is by no means famous or even very well known (even amongst the budo community) but those who do generally treat him with great respect.

10th September 2002, 13:48
Originally posted by Peter Holden

Other budoka have previously won the medal but the medal and sash are only given to those who have made some achievement in the promotion of Japanese culture overseas as well as at home.

The sash is part of every award and is given to all recipients. I have witnessed the ceremony first hand.


Originally posted by Peter Holden
All this business about Hatsumi-sensei not being respected in Japan is rubbish. He is by no means famous or even very well known (even amongst the budo community) but those who do generally treat him with great respect.

He is well known among budoka in Japan and sorry to say he is that well respected by many members of the martial community in Japan.

ShadowWarrior
10th September 2002, 15:09
Originally posted by Iron Clad Brute
The many Japanese that I have trained with all hate Hatsumi to death. They don't believe his claims and just laugh at his "ninjutsu" stuff.

I have seen (and have on tape) quite a few TV articles where Hatsumi and his stuff is discussed and made fun of! Most of the time they just can't stop laughing and saying, "oh, so this is a ninja huh?"

Mentioning Hatsumi at a koryu school will usually end up with the teacher no longer taking you seriously or not even talking to you.

These are my experiences in Japan, not necessarily my opinions.

And no, Hatsumi DOES NOT HAVE NATIONAL TREASURE STATUS. As a martial artist of great skill, perhaps he should have this bestowed upon him. But, surley the "ninja" people will use this in their arguments that Hatsumi is a legitimate ninjutsu teacher. Just like with his Emperors award for cultural exchange.

Does a title make him more man than he already is? You are or are not.
That's that ;)

It's like a zoo those political arguments. And by the way ...great men we know of nowadays that have changed the world we live in while being laughed at in their time. Well it's always better to be laughed at because it makes many ignorant people happy.

For how do you understand the mountaintop if you have never climbed one yourself ;)

My personal opinion is that things will all be a part of the natural flow of change in life and that Hatsumi is a giant among trees ...just receiving more wind ;)

OK enough of my blah blah....

Happy training
http://www.universal-ninja.com

Konsta

Peter Holden
10th September 2002, 23:39
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
He is well known among budoka in Japan and sorry to say he is that well respected by many members of the martial community in Japan.

I have spoken to various senior budoka in Japan and most didn't know of him, perhaps things have changed in the last five years?

Anyway, why are you "sorry to say he is well respected"???? Just what e-budo needs, another moderator hostile to the Bujinkan :rolleyes:

Again Hatsumi-sensei is the only martial artist to have received the international version of this award and the difference is in the sash.

Why don't you ask him about it?

Oni
11th September 2002, 00:06
Originally posted by Peter Holden

Anyway, why are you "sorry to say he is well respected"????


I 'think' that was a typo of some sort. As read it really doesn't make sense. Could be wrong though...btw...I am not aware of any moderators that are actively hostile towards the Bujinkan here. Yes John is in the Genbukan but I have not seen him 'hostile' towards the Bujinkan. I have been 'hostile' in the past towards certain people in the Bujinkan...but not the organization as whole. I am after all a member of the Bujinkan....

11th September 2002, 00:07
Originally posted by Peter Holden


I have spoken to various senior budoka in Japan and most didn't know of him, perhaps things have changed in the last five years?

Well when I used to teach at the Nippon Budokan they sure seemed to know of him. Not to mention a few other large groups like the Kobudo Shinkokai.


Originally posted by Peter Holden
Anyway, why are you "sorry to say he is well respected"???? Just what e-budo needs, another moderator hostile to the Bujinkan :rolleyes:

Don't get your panties in a wad.
It was a typing error.
It should have read "sorry to say he is not that well respected".

11th September 2002, 00:11
Originally posted by Oni

...I am not aware of any moderators that are actively hostile towards the Bujinkan here. Yes John is in the Genbukan but I have not seen him 'hostile' towards the Bujinkan. I have been 'hostile' in the past towards certain people in the Bujinkan...but not the organization as whole. I am after all a member of the Bujinkan....

Nor am I.

In fact one of my good friends of 20 years is a member of the Bujinkan.

Personally I don't care either way if Hatsumi is respected or not.
I would imagine he is respected by some since he has students.
However, I do know that he is known and rather "infamous" in kobudo circles.

11th September 2002, 00:35
Just as an additional note.

Hatsumi does write for a popular monthly Budo magazine called "Hidden".
He is in it every month, and has several pages each issue.

Yanosuke
11th September 2002, 01:29
Thats great Mr rousselot, is it a way to get them at a great cost ?

Thank for your time.

Yanosuke

11th September 2002, 01:32
Magazines in Japan are pretty expensive.
I am not sure if that magazine has overseas delivery or not.

hoshizawa
11th September 2002, 03:04
Hello,
Not trying to be a commercial, but go to Buyubooks.com to order Hiden and various other books, magazines, video, and even densho!

Lee Relf

NumeroUno
11th September 2002, 03:16
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Just as an additional note.

Hatsumi does write for a popular monthly Budo magazine called "Hidden".
He is in it every month, and has several pages each issue.

Mr. Rousselot, do you know the nature of this magazine? Is it reputable, or is it just Japan's equivalent of the common martial arts trade rags like those we know here in America?


Rahul Bhattacharya

11th September 2002, 03:51
Let's put it this way.......it's not one of my favorites.
Mainly because very few of the articles in it are of interest to me.
The only Budo Mag. I have seen that is actually "serious" is the Asian Journal of Martial Arts.
Most of the other rags I have seen are strictly profit motivated.

FastEd
11th September 2002, 13:59
How about "Kendo Jidai(sp?)" or "Kendo Nippon"? I'm not a current subscriber, but I have some older issues which I really liked.

11th September 2002, 14:07
They are pretty good.
I don't do Kendo so I don't buy them but have seen them.
There used to be one Karate Mag. that was half way decent but it went out of business.
There are probably more good magazines out there but I personally don't like MA magazines that much anymore.
If I want to read about MA I buy some book written by decent author that knows his stuff.

shinbushi
11th September 2002, 19:33
Originally when Hiden the Budo and Bujutsu magazine came out
the articles were only going to be of Soke of Koryu arts and Chinese Kempo as bujutsu is the same kanji as wushu. It has digraded since then. last article had Caporea and aa Japanese CQC

3rd October 2002, 00:59
Originally posted by Janty Chattaw


I wonder how many of these "Japanese" can even punch out of a wetpaper bag, let alone comment on another man. I seriously doubt 3/4 of these people, who speak low of others, could even hang with Hatsumi-sensei.


What makes you think so?

Swinger
3rd October 2002, 02:47
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
What makes you think so?

I think it's just the "my sensei can beat your sensei" thing here.

Hatsumi Sensei is a fairly high profile martial artist (in the traditional martial arts community) in Japan as he often appears in magazines and has a number of titles available in almost any large bookshop in Japan. This being so he is, probably justifiably, critical of both the modern sporting approach to martial arts as being dangerous in real situations while at the same time attacks to kata fixation of most of the koryu budo. Therefore it is very understandable why he not held in regard by these very people.

I think this has always been the case and the Bujinkan has only gone from strength to strength in Japan and internationally so it shouldn't be something to worry about.

Togakure1161
16th October 2002, 07:45
An all too common occurance in the Martial Arts world today; people claiming this art is fake and that art is fake. If the art works, LEAVE IT ALONE. Martial Artists in today's life get SO caught up in the politics of Martial Arts that they turn into piss poor fighters and warriors because they spent more time on the Politics of a specific art than they did on training. Leave the Politics alone, JUST TRAIN.