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Bustillo, A.
3rd September 2002, 23:16
Sochin,

Two warnings, thank you. So far, there have been no comments made like the following; 1). 'I haven't been wowed', 'The history is pure B.S.', 'This throws up a lot of red flags' and so on. Even when these comments were made about and similiar comments about other instructors and or styles, there was not even one warning. When Michael Clarke was disecting Morio Higaonna there were no warnings, Peter Urban same thing, Kenko Juku same thing, no warnings. So I ask, is this by convenience?

Nonetheless the warnings are noted. What was posted was a legitimate question relating to the history and background of a particular instructor, T. Oyata. He is an Okinawan instructor from Okinawa.
Note the following, Patrick McCarthy has mentioned he could find no reference to the two instructors in question. Mark Bishops' in his book 'Secret of Okinawan Karate', both editions, does mention S. Nakamura, however, the two instructors in question do not appear anywhere nor Oyata.

S. Nagamine in his book no mention of the instructors in question.

T. Hokama in his works and as far as I know nor in any of his research has not found any references to the two teachers in question.

So, of course I am not saying that this does not mean that we should completely discredit the claims, however it does bring the two instructors under suspect as to if, when, why, what, where, how, and if ever Oyata actually did train and learn some secret hidden mystery that he will not teach to even his advanced students.

So please, I am looking forward to reading any documentation other than Oyata himself about the two teachers in question.

Thanks in advance.

I am a history buff so what can I say.

Bustillo, A.
3rd September 2002, 23:31
Sochin,

Please note , the above post was meant as 'reply 'to the original thread on T. Oyata., not as new thread. If you like, feel free to log it under the original messages.

thank you.

Sochin
4th September 2002, 15:04
Note the following, Patrick McCarthy has mentioned he could find no reference to the two instructors in question.

It's nice to have a reference to a site or book for such mentions.

My own sensei has been scrutinized or worse in these forums...

I'll let this stay because it is not the main theme but the other thread is obviously a 'bad budo' theme and will go there soon.

TT

Goju Man
7th September 2002, 01:43
Everyones lineage can have discrepencies in it. Many people throw the lineage around like it means everything and I can tell you, there are people with great lineages that can't fight. A real good lineage means that you probably trained with a good instructor. It doesn't necssarily mean that you are good.

kusanku
9th September 2002, 06:03
Hmmm.My instructor in Okinawa Kenpo karate do, an American marine stationed on Okinawa from 1962-64, studied the art under Odo Seikichi, a godan under Shigeru Nakamura, who had a dojo(Odo did that is) in Kin Village at the time.

At the same time, Seiyu Oyata ran the dojo in I believe, either Naha or Nago city, I don't remember what my Sensei said at the time.

Anyhow, a whole bunch of Oyata's dan ranked ex marine students lived near where we did, in Northwestern Ohio, and the first demo I evber saw of karate, was run by them-Chuck Colgrove, Bill Mitchell, Bob Jeffries, and I wish I remembered the names of the others.

My teacher had known them and Oyata Sensei on Okinawa, because once a month, all the Kenpo dojo wwent to Shigeru Nakamura's to train.

Anyhow, this was my first in-person karate demo, and these guys were tremendous, they did basics, broke stuff, like everyone did, but then the katas, were very fluid, very fast, more like someone really moving in combat than most robot like performances, and then, they showed self defense, and the techniques were swift, effective, powerful( hammerfists played a big role0 and even multiple attack defenses. Then they did kobudo, including two person, this was in 1966 and the skills demonstrated were really better than most other stuff I subsequently saw.

Finally, the did kumite, in bogu armor, and man, they were clobbering each other, for real.The technique was superb, I was a judoka at the time and remembered wondering how to counter that speed and fluid power, that so evidently really existed as you heard the thumps and saw people fly.These were Oyata's guys, back in '66.

Did they talk about tuite? No.Did they do it? Yeah, in the self defense, where they armlocked, wristlocked, and everything else-locked as they struck with decisive force.Kyusho jutsu? Well, not wearing armor, it is to protect you from just that that Kenpo uses that.You get hit, can be k'o'ed even, but but not affected by kyusho strikes thru it.So the ballistic shock taught by Kenpo was extreme to hit like that thru bogu armor.This is something most people who talk about this stuff but have not done it, don't realize, it hurts like Heck to get hit hard thru bogu.Or kicked hard for that matter.

Anyway. I later started studying with my teacher, call him T.N. cause I don't need to get him involved in any of this mess on here.

remember that at this time, he, who learned from Odo, did the same art that Oyatsa at the time, also taught, the art of Shigeru Nakamura.
Anyoine who reads the articvle that John Lindsay posted will see Oyata with Kumite cup, that was full contact kumite guys, in armor, on Okinawa, against the best on the island. My teacher knew Joe Lewis there, when he studied from Oyata and another Kenpo teacher named Kijo Chinsoku, also under Nakamura.Lewis was the best American sprring guy on the island, and credited Oyatas with this, still does today, in MA Pro mag recently he stated Oyata taught him to spar on Okinawa.

Now, Oyata and Odo, had to change style names, and also eventually move locations, because after Nakamura's death in 1969, there was a style fight, in which Taketo Nakamura,Shigeru's son, legally contested and won the right to head his father's stylel though Odo and Oyata were both his seniors in the style at the time, and I believe his Father's wish was for Odo to inherit the style.

Anyway, Oyata was in the US and came back to Okinawa to find that situation over as I understand, so returned to US and teaches from here.

As for his teachers, Uhufushuge No Tanmei and Wakinaguri No Tanmei,whoi respectively were supposed to have taught him tuite and kyusho jutsu arts of analyzing kata-I have seen photosd of both, and a film of one that is being searched for, its on some show called Frontline about the Battle of Okinawa, where the individual in the picture described as Uhufushuge No Tanmei, was shown interned in a POW Camp, mad as Hell and deadly looking.He had a samurai topknot and kimono, and was huge man, looking like a grappler if not a sumotori.

Anyway, Taika Oyata was fifteen at the end of WWII if I have the age right, and was delivering food to Okinawans for the US government, and found, so the story is, the two, Uhufushuge and Wakinaguri, starving, and fed them, and in gratitude and because taika was of a noble family, the Oyakata, and you will find the name of an illustrious Oyata ancestor mentioning ti in an old poem, hundreds of years old in fact, listed by Namgine in fact in one of his books, and in McCarthy's Bubishi McCarthy mentions Seiyu Oyata, and Nagamine uses the words Tuite and kyusho jutsu as the secrets of the kata in his intro, and these words are used by Oyata first openly in Okinawan styles, but Nagamine agrees that they are the secrets of the kata.

So then they taught him, the story goes, and Uhufushuge used a kata to teach him certain principles to unlock all kata, and showed a few actual waza, and toldsd him to figure the rest out.

This was supposed to be 1945, the two were about eighty, ninety some years old at the time, Wakinaguri was supposed to be expert in Chinese arts of vital point striking, well, I wasn't there, but Chinese arts of vital points do exist, called dian xue or cavity press, and some Okinawan warriors certainly did go to China and certainly learned some arts, maybe these.Oyata had learned already some karate, I think from an uncle, and later, he studied for many years with Nakamura, whose kata were thought by many on Okinawa, as Bishop attests, to be the most realistic for combat. For whatever reason, many did study with Nakamura, such as Yuichi Kuda, Fuse Kise, Chinsioku Kinjo, Odo Seikichi and Oyata Seiyu themselves, and many more who later became style heads of their own systems.

Now, we got lineage, from numbers of instructors including Nakamura, the or one of the most renowned karate masters on Okinawa,we got many students who are, I must say this, extremely proficient to the point of , guys, you don't really want to mess with these fellas, and that is really an understatement,you got skills that have been and can be passed on, and were to many people, such as some to my teacher, who yes, did show me some too, basics perhaps but the best I ever sdaw, and they came from Taika Oyata, whom I never met, and whose organization I never was a member of, though I was of Odo's Okinawan Kenpo Karate Kobudo Shudokan for a while, mostly though, I learned whatever my teacher taught me, who by the way, was the most skilled karate fighter and I mean fighter I ever personally met, and I met a lot of em more famous but less skilled.

My teacher's testimony that Taika could take him anytime he wanted in about a second, is from a man I never knew to lie and could myself never beat in sparring.Though as one of his senior student's,. TN's that is, I could take most of his other yudansha except my senior, Bill Mc.--, who sometimes beat me and sometimes I tied with.But Sensei always whipped us both, and I mean in contact gfighting, and sometimes guys, we just didn't use that armor, hate that stuff.Gad its hot.

I cannot emphasize enough, how 'Bad' these guys were and are.Kenpo was designed by Nakamura for streetfighting on Okinawa, if you can imagine that.I wonder if you can, really.Taika Oyata was Okinawan bogu Kumite champion in the stuff, meaning, he whipped everyone but the Old Man himself who didn't compete in shiai but k'o'ed p[eople in the dojo all the time.

So, if we are going to insult this person, his lineage, or his skills, be aware, some of the senior students of his, are reading this forum.Yes, they are.Though myself sort of a prarallel lineage type,since my teacher for a while was at least godan under Taika, and did share with me some really fine beatings, I think I can say, you might want to be careful just wehat you say about this.Not a threat from me or anyone else, just kind of a caution.

Let me say what a man I know, a fine gentleman, I won't name him but he was sevventh dan in Kobayashi Ryu,National USKA Poiunt and Full Contact Champion, said after sa seminar at my Sensei's Dojo in Lima , Ohio.He told his senior student, with whom I trained for fourteen years, and who told me,'Mr. N.(my teacher) Beat the s#it out of me, and he enjoyed it.'

Anyone who can beat the mess out of a National full contact champion fighter, is not to be trifled with, and he learned to in the manner he that time employed, from Taika Oyata.

Now, I five times sparred that gentleman in dojo training, and five times got handed a fine beating.I like to think I made him work for it, but truth to tell, that is not the case, he was national champ and not for nothing.He did however complement me on speed for my size and also ability to stop a man in an alley which he said I had while some tournament champs did not.Mr. E. B.'s own words.But I knew what would happen when he met my teacher, as with the first man, you could actually see it coming.Witn, TN, and moreso after he met Oyata, you could not.

Now as to Dillman and Oyata teaching the same thing, not even close.Once Dillman was Oyata's student, but later, not too long later, he split, or was thrown out,one or the other. I have trained, with both my teacher, and some Dillman people,and they have some knowledge in common, but not that much,Dillman uses arnis and Small Circle Jiujitsu to supplement his art, most of his guys use other katas than Kempo does, and when they do the Kempo Katas, they don't really use Kempo body movements with them, and the katas appear wooden.

Can the Dillman people do k'o's? Yes they can. Can they do locks and throws from kata? Yes, they can come up with some moves, were taught some, usually have Oyata videos, and so do have some knowledge.

Do they do them like Oyata's students? Not a bit.With the same emphasis? Not at all alike.I will not get into who is better though its obvious who I think is, but I will say they are very, very different.The Dillman people say that Oyata's students can't do ko's. My teacher could and so can I, so I bet Taika's students can too.Only difference, Taika's style, uses moves agaijsnt actual full power ansd speed attacks.Dillman's uses against relaxed opponents. K'o'ed two of his yudansha when they challenged me to do so.Got one with a shorin ryu hairpull I learned in 1973 when a green belt in that art.I have since been told that the Shorin people do not know such techniques and that the twenty six one shot kyusho takeouts I was taught by a man who learned from Nagamine's American son-in' law couldn't be from Matsubayashi ryu style. maybe not, but they are all moves found in the kata of Matsubayashi Ryu.Wonder what that was about.

Anyway,this has been long, and I haven't proven or disproven the existence of those two old teachers, but you know what, that story ain't so far-fetched. Especially if you ever been in the receiving end of a waza from one of Taika's students. Gives pain a whole new meaning.And hey, he does have the photos.Also I have seen Soken's photo of Nabe Matsumura, a copy of it anyway.

As for Bishop not mentioning Oyata, well, he was long gone from Okinawa time Bishop got there, and well, out of sight, out of mind, but John's article clearly shows Oyata teaching at the Kenpukan in the Sixties.

And, yes, you might talk to Mike Minor, www.ryushu.com I believe.As for Hidy Ochiai, no one attacked his skills.It was just the hinky history.A history that really, isn't possible given the kata done in the system.Kata developed on Okinawa not earlier than the nineteen hundreds.

One more thing: Some of the kata taught by Taika, and people thought no one else, have turned up from some other teachers in Okinawa, indicating that perhaps his stories of Chinese origin for some of them may well be true.The core kata of his system however, or the basics , are those taught by Nakamura Shigeru, plus I believe two he has that are otherwise not known called Sho Ho Happo and Shi Ho Mitsu I think.The others are Naihanchi One-Three, Seisan,Pinan One-Five, Paisai(Tomari like the Seisan) Kusanku(Yabu) and Niseishi( Arakaki as well as the seisan).Bishop got some of those wrong in his book.He also learnd other kata, and teaches many weapons kata, some which as it turns out, some other Okinawan teachers also do.Very old ones.

As for those talking about kata apps for fighting, refer to the above Okinawan Kenpo training, conditioning and sparring , and then think, why would these guys even mess with kata, if they couldn't really make it work?They can.That's all.

If in this I have offended anyone invoolved with Taika Oyata or his organization or present arts of Ryu Te(c) or Oyata Shin Shu Ho,(c) neither of which I have ever received training in, Only a little Ryukyu Kempo, and a lot of Okinawan Kenpo, I fomrmally apologize, but I thought people should not slander such a man, of whom, I have heard nothing but good, and whom I know to be heavily involved in charities.

Now, I'll bow out.
Osu!

Tatsu
9th September 2002, 07:59
Oyata Shinshii studied under Shigeru Nakamura, and was a senior student. My sensei who was a student of Yuichi Kuda as well as Fusei Kise, and in fact was president of their organizations, has pictures of Oyata with Nakamura. 'Nuff said.

As for the existence of Nabe. I guess some people feel that Hohan Soken was a liar. Whatever, the proof of Nabe's techniques (as learned from his "grandfather" Sokon Matsumura) is in the hands, feet, body and minds of people like Soken, Kise, James Coffman, Kuda, Seizan Kinjo, Lindsey and so on. Ask for a private history lesson and any of these fellows would probably be obliged to teach you. Just because you are unaware of some aspect of reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, least we forget, the Battle of Okinawa was extremely devastating to the Ryukyuan Archipelago. Many, many historical, personal and official documents were destroyed. Bombardment practically razed the island. It's a surprise that any Okinawan would ever want to teach a non-Okinawan their family fighting tradition(s). Ingrates that many of us are, and have been raised to be, we should be lucky to even have any knowledge of such an influential thing from such a seemingly small place. Bye all....

Rob Alvelais
10th September 2002, 00:57
He missed Chogi Kishaba ( a student of Masami Chinen and Chojun Miyagi). He said that there were no more practitioners of Yamane Ryu, in his first edition. Thankfully, a member of Kishaba Juku was an editor at Tuttle, before the second edition was put out, or he might never have "discovered" this important figure in Yamane Ryu Bojutsu. It's curious how he, a former yondan in Goju, would miss one of the few living students of Chojun Miyagi.

Bottom line, Mr. Bishop's not mentioning of Mr. Oyata, or anyone else proves nothing.

Rob



Originally posted by TOKON
Kusanku, Mark Bishop mentions several Okinawan Karate Instructors and practioners that have passed away, are still teaching/practicing or have moved to other countries. He lived in Okinawa for 15 years and trained extensively in many native Okinawan Martial Arts. He is also the author of Zen Kobudo: Mysteries of Okinawan Weaponry and Te(Tuttle,1996).I just don't understand how he could have omitted S. Oyata from his research.???????????????
OSU,

kusanku
11th September 2002, 02:48
Has anyone on here ever actually seen taika or even his videos, and seen what happens?

I'd say the proof is in the punching.

As far as you not being able to prove his two other teachers existed, can you or anyone else, prove they did not?

Now, as far as anyone sayoing anything bad about anyone else, I haven't. I said, that Ochiai sensei is a fine gentleman from all I hear, and a good karateman and a fighter too.

I doubt his students will wish to take my head for either statement, and as for the hostory of Washin Ryu as given, it si impossible, and the proof is, the Heian Katas were made up in Japan as alterations of the Pinans which werre, at least the ladt three, created in the 1900's, so saying a dstyle is four hundred year old Japanese one, can not be.

As for what Taika's students may of r may not say about him, neither he nor anyone but those students is responsible for that.

As for the fine karate historians, they may or may not mention Taika Oyata, he's been in the US for a long time, if they never met him, they won't mention him.

As for Nagamine San, he didn't mention yuichi kuda, teruyuki higa, seikichi odo, or Tatsu Shimabuku either, but he knew all of them.

Also knew Seiyu Oyata.My teacher knew them all on Okinawa, and they all used to get together to practice, all styles, once a month there.Which maybe you didn't know. Photos exist.

People also mention Gokenki a lot, but not so much Todaiki, a Tiger Boxer on Okinawa, who is in the Photos with the Kenkyukai and all the Okinawan masters plus Gokenki.

History is kinda selective, dontcha think? Probably no history will mention any of my teachers, but they existed and their lineage is good, so is their fighting ability.As for my own, modesty forbids.:D

Old, old am I, creaking with age, yet, in my long agone youth...:-)Come closer, my son, and hear the tale, closer, that's it, closer...:D


Main thing is, Joe Lewis, he can fight some , don'thca think, mentions Taika, Seiyu Oyata as one of the four teachers he had who taught him to fight. So, basically, that should be good enough by you guys standards.As whoever can fight, you don't care if he tells truth or not about history or lineage.But the fact that Taika was one of the dojo heads under Nakamura, if anyone here knew what they really were talking about, would speak volumes.

In Okinawan Kenpo, our Dan ranks were earned in blood, sweat, toil and tears, ours and the opponent's.Everyone who really knows anything about that group, will know whereof I speak.If you couldn't fight, you didn't get the rank.If you could, you did, almost no matter what else you knew or didn't know.

T2, what the heck are you talking about? What is T2?And sure as heck don't believe any of the acussations you read on these forums by some people who just want to argue.

kusanku
11th September 2002, 02:51
I know there is a Triple warmer Meridian, TW, but T, that would be what, Tongue Two?:D

That's one you guys use way too much on here.

kusanku
12th September 2002, 01:42
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
[B]John,

T2 hehe Tongue two haha yeah we use that alot here. Although you use W2 no not the tax form you WRITE TOO MUCH:D

Mike, when you are right, you are right. So, from now on, I won't.:-)


T2 was a joke meaning both testicles!

Oh, you mean the area referred to in the Bubishi as the 'generals.'I think that's what it said.:D


Now as far as things go you are the ONLY person who has claimed to see video of Taikas Senseis.

It was on a show, A&E or PBS has, called Frontline, the episode was called 'The Battle of Okinawa.'It is being searched for, I saw this one night, and the person or his dead ringer, called Uhufushuge No Tanmei in the photo I saw, was in a barbwire compund, intenred, and in a Kimono, with topknot, mad as Hell and twice as well, he wasn't pretty.He was looking at the camera like he wanted to kill.Loked like he could and would, too.That is all.



So was he 93 yrs old?

Mike, how would I know that?The Okinawans are the longest lived people on earth and some keep black hair into their nineties, and he had black hair, whether natural or dyed I wouldn't know.The guy was, however, dressed in 19th century Samurai style, though, I don't think too many young Okinawans in 1945 did that.




We can go back and forth and the video he did with Svinth was also in question as we were told they could only use several minutes of it as the pressure points weren't happening baby! You know no one was being Knocked out!

Well, I have seen hours and hours of Taika in video, and where people were being k'o'ed. The uke in the film on Svinth's doc, was Mike Minor, one of Taika's senior students, maybe he has been worked on enough to build up immunity.Or maybe everyone had a bad hair day.

Anyway, the ko's don't work the same on everyone, any more than regular punches do.Funakoshi even says this in Kyoohan. The stuff is not magic. The tuite I saw in the doc looked alright, though.

Basically, what I learned from my teacher that Taika had taught him, was analysis of mechanics within kata, used to bring weight to bear on opponent's body or limbs thru one area of striking surface.I also learned that, and these werre called, to me, nerve strikes, certain areas, not just points , could be struck using these body mechanics in effective ways, to cause pain, unbalance, and take down, also to open up other areas of opponent's anatomy, head, throat, neck etc., to finishing strikes that would possibly ko opponent, ie, the carotid arteries etc.

I was shown footwork, evasion, interception, ahd striking limbs to cause pain and openings in body and head areas,how to use angles to reach opponent's back or blind area, and things of this nature.All the connect the dots stuff that Dillman teaches had nothing to do with what I was shown, at all.

I was shown where this stuff was in kata I had been doing for twenty years so was already good with.I was told how all martial arts connect at the level of fundamental body mechanics and survival mode techniques, such as using both arms to protect oneself, and using legs to asist arms with low level kicks and traps and sweeps,while two arms protect and one or two hands counter, from naihanchi kata, and how this applied to all kata and all karate.

This is the teaching of Taika through my own teacher, that I was given.It showed some things not on the videos, and vice versa.Basic idea as I understood and understand it was, you use your bodie's natural protective insticts, like startle response, to allow it to protect your life in an attack, and use both arms to intercept attack, or reverse a grab, or parry and strike simultaneously. You use the weknesses of the opponent at the moment he attacks, suuc as the inevitable opening that will ensue upon an attack, while you cover all areas of your body you can, and angle such that you get a shot at him while this is happening.

Then you use body mechanics common to all arts, to put your weight and power into a strike or strikes in areas that will hurt your opponent or stun him, like behind the ear ,or in the jaw, or so on and so forth, say, and then apply a humane takedown if possible, or if not, smack him a good one, two or three or so.

To me, this is the same thing, but in a different way, that judo says, maximum efficiency with minimum effort.The tuite I was shown, works because you position yourself suich that your weight goes into your opponent's limb, which being torquesd in some way, increases the pain and he goes down from disadvantageous position compounded by application of force to unbalanced position.

The kyusho jutsu I learned didn't really depend on points, though they were aimed at, it really depended on hitting in such manners as were harder to tighten up and defend against, such as two times rapidly in succession at the same place, or three times, or one one place and then a second right after it in a connected place, but like, throat and xiphoid process, no mystery points about those.

Kyusho jutsu to me, mean effective strikes.Like, maybe if someone says to me, what is a one strike ko, I may show an upward x block with either fists or shuto. Now without going into where or hoiw I would strike with those, first, ask me how I would do that in a fight.Laugh.The answer is simple: If someone grtabs both my lapels, I can get 'em easy with one.Evewn softly and in slow motiuon this move can be painful, as it resembles a x choke with a downward rip after, as in kata.It hurts and it works.

But if we're boxing, maybe I won't be able to get this on you.

It depends what attack it is meant to couunter, or what kind of attack.But, it isn't a joke.

If we are boxing, the best defense is to kick you , low or wherever I can.

If we asre kicking, the best defense is to grab or trap the leg and take you to the mat.

On the mat, once again, we are grappling, now I can use locking and so forth.

Against a lock, hand strikes and punching can be used, in general.Or maybe we just mix it up, throw some hands, roll a little, and see what happens.But the techniques,tuite and kyusho , as I learned them,from mon teacher, were effective.

Remember, I was a judoka, really, first, locking and vital point strikes are both part of judo, with kicking, throwing and holding, and squeezing.It's all good, after all.Tuite=kansetsu waza, kyusho jutsu =atemi waza.What's the big deal?

Goju Man
12th September 2002, 01:56
T2, what the heck are you talking about? What is T2?

Isn't that the Arnold Shwarzennegar film??:D

kusanku
12th September 2002, 22:30
By Gosh Manny, you're right, it Is! Termninator Two! Now, that was some Serious Kyusho Jutsu, and Gun Fu as well.:D

TimothyScott
23rd November 2002, 19:55
Originally posted by kusanku

It was on a show, A&E or PBS has, called Frontline, the episode was called 'The Battle of Okinawa.'It is being searched for, I saw this one night, and the person or his dead ringer, called Uhufushuge No Tanmei in the photo I saw, was in a barbwire compund, intenred, and in a Kimono, with topknot, mad as Hell and twice as well, he wasn't pretty.He was looking at the camera like he wanted to kill.Loked like he could and would, too.That is all.


Were you ever able to find this video? I was interested to see this person and did a search on www.pbs.org. There is, indeed, a show called Frontline carried by PBS. However, searching their archives (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/) which date back to 1983, I couldn't find any episode titled "The Battle of Okinawa".

--tim
Timothy Scott

kusanku
23rd November 2002, 23:26
Well, I am prety sure that is where it was, maybe a search for 'the battle of Okinawa will come up with it, if it were another show,anyhow, the guy in the documentary, is the same guy as in the pictures That Oyata Sensei has shared, as in articles and such.

Someone asked me if he was ninety. If Okinawans are in fact longest lived people, he could have been some wrestler types, and he looked like a sumotori., a big dude, for real, keep strong for a long long time.

This guy was mad, mean looking and wanted to kill someone. Looked like he easily could have too, and no mystery how.You might feel the same way after your home hjust got used as a pawn in WWII between the US and Japan, and blown all to Heck.

Good luck in your searc.

Hank Irwin
30th November 2002, 03:11
My Sensei studied under Oyata Sensei in Okinawa in the 60's, the dark days. When you wanted to fight you went to Oyata Sensei's dojo. Military personal flocked there as was the same at Shinjo Sensei's of Ueichi-ryu. These 2 dojo were the "favorites". I have studied Ryu-Te from my Sensei, but it was Ko-Do, still RyuKyu Kempo, part of my training. It is a devastating system. KusanKu hits it pretty much on the money,too. Anyone who might even slight Oyata Sensei's lineage has to have a death wish. I have not seen him in person in action, but I have seen many video with him in it, extremelly scarey!! to say the least. Oyata Sensei has no reason to speculate on his lineage, he can do what he says he can and then some. Anyone that thinks otherwise should go study with him or one of his senior students. You will be in for a surprise! If you have the 'nads for it. Most do not. Bishop Sans book has some gaps in it. It is extremelly hard to provide an accurate account of what transpired in Okinawa when it comes to MA. BishopSan should be credited for what he did not what he didn't. It was the very first book stateside, for that matter anywhere, that gave a very good glimpse into Okinawan MA and it's lineage. As for lineage, I have had people ask me my lineage. Some I give an account, some not. But even that sometimes is not enough, until the training starts Hahahahaha!!! :D

Bustillo, A.
30th November 2002, 14:11
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Anyone who might even slight Oyata Sensei's lineage has to have a death wish. I have not seen him in person in action, but I have seen many video with him in it, extremelly scarey!! to say the least.... Anyone that thinks otherwise should go study with him or one of his senior students. You 'll be in for a surprise! If you have the 'nads for it. Most do not. ...
Hahahahaha!!! :D



A Marvel!? Thanks for the warning...guess we better not throw away the Kryponite.

Hank Irwin
30th November 2002, 15:06
Kryptonite huh? Haha, it's something,you know? What most people don't understand, they ridicule. Sometimes it is best to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. It's one thing to "inquire" about lineage, but to try and cast a shroud of mystery or half truths around it just proves to be fatal, and sets the stage for this kind of thing. But, nothings new here. Discrepancies have always been there, always will be. Oyata Sensei has trained many proficient fighters over the years. They don't take slander likely. To constantly question the authority of our Seniors is a double edged sword. If you have a problem with what is being told to you, seek out the answers. Just be careful you leave your ego at home, and be respectful of others when you do it. Common courtesys will get you farther than you might think.

Bustillo, A.
30th November 2002, 18:56
Hank,
Haisai.

You think the world of Oyata, beautiful. You want to rely on kyusho, fantastic. However, we are not makiwara men. Therefore, we do not believe in standing motionless to let anyone do their pressure points techniques on us.

Don't know why you question our 'nards, yet not too long ago an aikido instructor and a kyusho man dropped by Mike Mitchell's dojo. --a nard test I guess-- The visitors could not pull anything off and they did not do too well.
(BTW.You mentioned your teacher trained with Oyata in Okinawa. Name?)

But, let us get back to the original question about Oyata. You revived this thread. Do you have any info that will shed some light on his mystery teacher?

Goju Man
30th November 2002, 23:52
Hank, I hope you can tell us who was supposedly killed, probably with kyusho.:D The reason this thread was started was because a yudansha of his was constantly criticizing everyone else's lineage and short comings, as if they have none.

Anyone who might even slight Oyata Sensei's lineage has to have a death wish. I have not seen him in person in action, but I have seen many video with him in it, extremelly scarey!! to say the least.
Well, Jon Bluming has had some very public words on him and is still alive.:D I don't want to quote him because I don't remember the exact name calling, but someone else can chime in on that one.

TimothyScott
1st December 2002, 04:09
I don't know if this helps shed light on the subject, but if you go to the link below, it mentions that "....Mr. Uhugushukuís family awarded Mr. Oyata with a Menkyo Kaiden..." (emphasis mine).

This indicates that at least one of Oyata's instructors had a family of sorts. Are any of Mr. Uhugushuku's descendants / relatives still alive, I wonder?

http://www.geocities.com/AcademyofRyukyuKenpo/Oyata.htm

Hank Irwin
1st December 2002, 18:30
I have great respect and admiration for Oyata Sensei, I didn't say he was a magician. My Sensei did study with Oyata Sensei. Many of my brother students have here in US at our old Dojo, by way of seminars that is. RyuKyu Kempo was part of our training, not the actual system we do, all though they are all from same small island. Our systems first focus is getting in and hitting/disarming you. Doesn't have to be kyusho, just atemi, and we don't stand still. And by the way, I wasn't bashing you guys 'nads, that was in general, and with memories I have of some of the goofballs I have seen. The system I learned was to me quite unique, although the parts of it are just that. My Sensei did not blend the systems he learned together. He taught them separatelly. They were fortunately for me from all 3 mainland styles. Shuri-Te, Tomari-Te, & Naha-Te. Jubi-undo was a combination of the best from all 3. One thing I don't know for sure is the logistics of Oyata Sensei's lineage. I have been more concerned with Seito Shorinji-ryu(my roots) than anything else. I am sure some of Oyata Sensei's upper ranking students could answer many questions posed here. Who was the one doing the blasting? Oyata Sensei's student you say? I don't think I picked up on this thread at the beginning. When I first saw it I thought someone was looking for a drum maker for Oyata Sensei, I'm serious. Bluming Sensei is a tough guy, this I know. I didn't know he had ill respect for Oyata Sensei. That's unfortunate. Mr. Dillman, I remember he was quite the fighter in his heyday. I know he trained with Oyata Sensei for awhile, don't know how long though. I also know there is very bad blood between them. That's unfortunate also.
My first fascination with budo was Wado, my sense of endeavor has stayed bascially the same. Too many times I have encountered Japanese counterparts that held little respect for Okinawan KarateKa though, not all of them but many. This I find sad with the exception of some non-Japanese KarateKa that I hold in very high regard. But there is no excuse for bashing truths in MA. Japan and Okinawa have a long history of being together but seperate nations. For the most part without the Japanese knowing. I myself love anything about the cultures of both lands, China too. Especially when it comes to the MA. The history of it is another matter though. It goes from research for some to investigation before it's all over. Then trial. Usually kangaroo style. There are many to be suspect of questioning. I'm just glad I don't feel the need to have to question my Sensei or his Seniors. I don't question the validity of anyone I don't know, unless I have trained with them to see for myself. For most of us that have been around for a little while know it doesn't take long to figure that out. Most of us would like to just trust. And we should. But with caution not speculation.

heiwa :D

kusanku
1st December 2002, 19:15
To my brother in Budo, Hank Irwin, Heiwa:
You are right.That many people who have not experienced the undiluted Okinawan karate as Both our sensei learned it in the Sixties there, may tend to treat it lightly,, is unfortunate.

That it has been known to be dangerous is also true, and somewhat unfortunate.But we both know,that too, is true.

To my buddies in the SFA: I am sure that you are all very, very tough men and good fighters. Never ever heard or thought, that you were not.These guys here, are too.This is not from soemone who only experienced one style, or one place., I been all over the country, except Florida and new England, and seen a lot of karate and other fighters.Crossed fists or rolled with a few of them, too.

I can tell you, Okinawan Kenpo is hard core, hard hiting stuff, that only teaches Kyusho at advanced levels or only used to.First thing it teaches is how to stand firm, move quick and hit and kick though the targets, using multiple combinations and basic Freight Train Ryu.

When fighting Shotokan people, I used to notice we liked the same things.:-)

When others came to our dojo and tried on bogu, they took a few times to get the hang of the closer distance and the harder hitting.

Too, some of use tried kickboxing, putting on the gloves and so on.And many of us were previously judo and jiujitsu people, so contact was no stranger to us.

As for the existence of Taika's teachers, I have seen pictures of all but one, and don't doubt him.But as Hank says, even on video, this guy is scary to the max, and his kyusho moves are done against all out, full speed and power attacks.Sometimes the opponents wear armor and are still k'o'ed!Of course, you can be knocked out throough bogu, as not everyone knows who hasn't tried it.

Seriously though, some of his seniors, ie all of them, are prety skillful, and I have heard the same of Hank and his Sensei.But Hank and me, we are the peaceful warriors.:D

'Bye now.:D

Goju Man
1st December 2002, 20:32
John, I'm sure he has produced some good karateka. I'm sure you know what I think of all this meridian touching at two a.m. hitting two set up points and rubbing rubarb on an open wound while force feeding hemlock through the ear crap. I can't quote Blumings' exact words but out of about thirty minutes of video that was shot, only about two minutes was aired because these "deadly" ko techniques weren't working. If you are THAT impressed by watching a video, you may not be able to distinguish fact from fiction. Most of those guys on the Dillmania tapes, these guys would get ko'd by a stiff wind, I hope you're not too impressed. Most of these guys haven't trained hard in years. That stuff is shaky at best with a cooperative opponent, forget when one is punching, kicking, grabbing and throwing you around. I'm not too impressed that you guys buy into this. John, I know you've been around for a long time, I've been around a little less time, have seen these types have to put up or shut up. They've had to shut up.

Hank Irwin
1st December 2002, 21:51
Arigato John Sensei, it's a good time to be alive no? Karate has become a world wide interest, with Okinawan To-De Jutsu being the key. This is something many of the old Masters had hoped would happen. It is just unfortunate there are those that would perpetuate the intent of the MA for their own personal gain. :mad:



The old ways are slowly being changed, just as they did when they went to Japan. Making it more standardized to conform to modern society. Fortunately there will always be a few Ko-Do no Deshi around to help with reality.:D



This is an article I thought you might all find interesting. Some of you may have already seen it. I thought it interesting because it pertains to many of the things touched on in this thread.

www.seinenkai.com/art-culture.html (http://seinenkai.com/art-culture.html)

I thought it was a great article. It was actually published in '99, good either way. Will go good in my library archives.:D

Goju Man
1st December 2002, 22:15
Fortunately there will always be a few Ko-Do no Deshi around to help with reality.
Fornunately, there are many ko don know around to help with the sale of these tapes.
Hank, I think what you need is a good dose of reality.

:D
Seek and you shall find, if you want to find.

Hank Irwin
1st December 2002, 22:36
Manny, you haven't sounded ignorant up until this point. I got my first taste of chip on my shoulder a looong time ago. I consider myself a humble man. But it didn't take getting the chip knocked off to teach me that. Watching others did. When you say sale of these tapes, are you reffering to Oyata Sensei's tapes? I would hope not. I have had a few people try to rattle my cage and makes claims and accusations from another country. Too bad they are so far away, but Fla. I just got back from Orlando a few weeks ago. Too bad we didn't have this conversation then huh? I will have to let you know next time I am there ok? I usually have a few days to waste between shows. I will be going back sometime in near future for convention. Would love to meet you. :D Mannysan, are you Uchina or Jap Goju?

Goju Man
1st December 2002, 23:23
Hank, can't comment about Oyata's tapes because I haven't seen any of them. I have seen Dillmans. Let me know next time you're down. We can definitley converse.:D


Mannysan, are you Uchina or Jap Goju?
Actually, used to Sansei Goju, and studied under a renegade of Gosei's in the seventies. Have been kickboxing since the early nineties and grappling.

kusanku
2nd December 2002, 01:54
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
[B]Arigato John Sensei, it's a good time to be alive no?

Indeed so, Hank Sensei.Indeed so.


Karate has become a world wide interest, with Okinawan To-De Jutsu being the key. This is something many of the old Masters had hoped would happen. It is just unfortunate there are those that would perpetuate the intent of the MA for their own personal gain. :mad:


Yes, my sentiments exactly, also.Too many out there take some things, and put them with their own ideas. As my Sensei says, its like a Rolls Royce Hood ornament on a Ford, then they call it Okinawan karate, kyusho jutsu and tuite.Make it a laughing stock.When its not a laughing matter.


The old ways are slowly being changed, just as they did when they went to Japan. Making it more standardized to conform to modern society. Fortunately there will always be a few Ko-Do no Deshi around to help with reality.:D

yes. always at least a few of us.


This is an article I thought you might all find interesting. Some of you may have already seen it. I thought it interesting because it pertains to many of the things touched on in this thread.

www.seinenkai.com/art-culture.html (http://seinenkai.com/art-culture.html)

I shall read it with interest.


I thought it was a great article. It was actually published in '99, good either way. Will go good in my library archives.:D

Always glad to get more good information.Thanks.

Take care and regards,

kusanku
2nd December 2002, 02:23
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John, I'm sure he has produced some good karateka.

Joe Lewis credits him with teaching him the reality of ambushing people in sparring.So, yes, a few.:-)



I'm sure you know what I think of all this meridian touching at two a.m. hitting two set up points and rubbing rubarb on an open wound while force feeding hemlock through the ear crap.

Same thing I do? Its crap. It also is nothing like what Taika Oyata was teaching, as far as anything I was taught goes, by my teacher who was then godan with him.

I was not taught one single acupuncture term. I was taught nerve strikes, protection, and body mechanics to make it work, and how to break down kata to find these principles and techniques that, when applied, really really reaaly hurt you bad.No lie, G.I.:D


I can't quote Blumings' exact words but out of about thirty minutes of video that was shot, only about two minutes was aired because these "deadly" ko techniques weren't working.

I've seen about fifteen hours where they Did work.You should really check out an Oyata tape, Dillman he is not.But hey, to each their own.I wasn't aware that Jon Bluming had said anything about Taika Oyata.I understand however, that Toshishiro Oshiro, a Shorin ryu master , met Taika once and said his karate was nearly perfect.


If you are THAT impressed by watching a video, you may not be able to distinguish fact from fiction.

Tell you what, Manny. Since about thirty years ago, in both Okinawan Kenpo and Shorin ryu, I learned to punch such that, when I hit someone in the head, the fight is over.My kick ain't too bad either.ASlso, not too many folks ever been able, since I made about shodan, to stop either one from getting through their defense.That's fact, and at fifty, I still possess that ability.

What until 1992 I had never seen or felt, until my sensei showed me on me, was the ability to drop a person in agony, with a shuto to the arm.That was something different, and he learned that from Taika and I learned it from him, and now, I can do that too.But if that don't work on someone, I can always give them a shot to the head or a kick in the generals.:D


Most of those guys on the Dillmania tapes, these guys would get ko'd by a stiff wind, I hope you're not too impressed.

I wasn't when I visited them and ko'ed two of them, one by kicking his arm, and one by pulling his hair.Also, when I had them get out the Judo mats, with my sankyu skill in Kodokan Judo I threw a bunch of nidans, sandans and yondans around the dojo like rag dolls. They enjoyed that cause they had never seen judo and were amazed at its power.:-)



Most of these guys haven't trained hard in years.

There was one ex college football player, that didn't believe too strongly in their stuff because it wouldn't work on him. His didn't work on me, but judo worked on him fine.


That stuff is shaky at best with a cooperative opponent, forget when one is punching, kicking, grabbing and throwing you around.

Oyata's stuff ain't shaky.Its based on hard hitting, fast moving intercepting attacks and getting outen the way of other stuff.Yes, there are places it hurts more to get hit, then there are ways to use body weight to make ones strikes harfder, too. This was what I learned.Makes the whole body one big kyusho.:DThe problem is here, you need to experience it for yourself from someone good, not hear second hand stuff.


I'm not too impressed that you guys buy into this.

You should be, cause we are both real as can be. Sensei Irwin and his Sensei, of whom I know , are the real thing and no people to mess with.Neither is my Sensei, a certified genuine Badash, and as for me, I am a peaceful warrior.:D Sniff! The fragrance of a rose on a spring day/Ah, tranqulity.


John, I know you've been around for a long time, I've been around a little less time, have seen these types have to put up or shut up. They've had to shut up.

Neither Taika nor his seniors ever have had to, far as I know. As for mine own sensei, ex-Marine, studied on Okinawa, fifth dan under Odo and Oyata both.

Tell you a little story about him.The USKA full contact heavyweight champion in the Eighties, a seventh dan Shorin ryu fighter who got his fourth on Okinawa from Hanshi Shugoro Nakazato,and whom I had the honor to spar five times, and yes I got beat five times, too, went to a seminar where my Sensei was explaining these principles.He came back and told his senior student, my training partner for fourteen years, 'Mr.>>>>>>>(My sensei) beat the s#it out of me, and he enjoyed it! 'I knew that would happen.

Next time I saw my sensei, he mentioned that a whole lot of big tournament guns had come to see him,and he said, there wasn't a one of them he hadn't black and blued.:DHe mentioned the one gentlemean, said he was a gentleman, and said he had beat the s#it out of him, and that he had enjoyed it.

Manny, I saw a lot of people come to my sensei's dojo over the decades, and I never saw a one who could beat him. Contact sparring.

Me, I am a peaceful warrior, ah, smell the flowers, I wouldn't know of such things, shudder, as combat.

When the Gracies challenged everyone from Mike Tyson to George Dillman to the UFC, they omited to challenge Taika Oyata. Someone asked me why, once. I said, the Gracies are promoters, and they know that on their own turf and their own terms, they will beat heck out of those guys.But they are not suicidal.

Oyata's real techniques, maybe wewre not on the videos you saw.maybe he was playing for the camera.What I have felt, from my sensei who learned it from him, is not a joke.If it were ineffective, I, an old Judoka, would be the first to agree with you guys, I would even tell you.

Dillman learned but little from Taika.What his guys do is mostly their own creation.It won't work on anyone who has broken a sweat, say has been sparring, but they won't tell you that. Oops, I just did.Oyata's tuite jutsu, atemi jutsu and kyusho jutsu as I learned only a little of in Ryukyu Kempo, an art he no longer teaches and I don't know the ones he now does,was based on effective usage of ones body, mind and spirit in real combat.Every time you move, you hit them, every time you hit them, you hurt them.Including, you vack dem mit dawse Shotei.Hard.

What can I say, Man?I did Judo for six years.I am not gonna be taken in by a phony.I wasn't. But Taika Oyata, is not a phony, and neither, by the way, is Hank Irwin.As for me, I am a peaceful warrior, snuff the flowers, look at the sky, spin three hundred and sixty degrees to get a good view., and if that don't work, there's always the shot to daws cabbage.:D

Goju Man
4th December 2002, 01:31
John, let me clarify that I have not seen Oyata. The Bluming quote was something to the effect of he's another Japanese wussy or something to that effect. I want to make it clear that it's not a direct quote, I can't remember the exact words. There are many points on the body that can be very painful, that's no secret. The secret is being able to hit them while not being hit.


What until 1992 I had never seen or felt, until my sensei showed me on me, was the ability to drop a person in agony, with a shuto to the arm.
I've seen Dillman do that same trick. The only problem with that is speed of the attack, angle of attack, timing of the attack, and the ability to see the attack be able to make all the adjustments in second. Anyone who can do that can make outlandish amounts of money in Pride, UFC, KOG, etc, or even teaching them if they have no desire to fight.

I'm not anti anything, contrary to popular belief, if something is proven to work, emphasis on PROVEN, I will be the first one in line to learn it.

Hey, what do you think of Yoshida? What a fighter, I am impressed. Gracie and Frye, both down, yep that's pretty impresive.;)

Hank Irwin
4th December 2002, 13:19
Yoshida? Can you brief us. I don't keep up with UFC or other shows like that. I just remember the Gracies were dominating it when I lost interest, no real KarateKa had actually entered at that point IMO. The ones that did weren't experienced enough. I would rather see them in Bogu myself, some, have already been hurt REAL bad, possibly killed sooner or later with these kind of shows. You can get hurt bad with Bogu, but you do minimize the chances. This is the very reason some techniques should be only in the dojo. It is impossible to take the same way of thinking from the battelfield to the ring/circle, unless you are planning on killing your opponent. In any case, the results would be something to see. In the street it is easy to see. As for teaching them for profit for no-holds contests, I scoff at the remark. As soon as someone dies here, watch what happens, it will get regulated. Well, call Oyata Sensei a wussy? Thats just plain self destructive Hahaha! The Dillman stuff is not what Oyata Sensei teaches by far. I have been taken down many times by strikes to the inside and outside of forearm, so much pain can be caused that the possibility of passing out is more than apparent. Pain not science. For those of you that don't do arm/body conditioning, think again. The more conditioned you are, the more used to pain you become, less likely to get knocked out from pain, but some strikes, forget it, lights out no matter who you are. :D

kusanku
5th December 2002, 02:29
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John, let me clarify that I have not seen Oyata.

You should , then take a good look at one of his actual tapes, sometimes, I recommend the one on Naihanchi Shodan No Kata.


The Bluming quote was something to the effect of he's another Japanese wussy or something to that effect. I want to make it clear that it's not a direct quote, I can't remember the exact words.

He's Okinawan, and while Okinawa-Ken is part of Japan, the culture is way different.Do you happen to know if Bluming has ever seen or met Oyata in person?


There are many points on the body that can be very painful, that's no secret. The secret is being able to hit them while not being hit.

That is what Oyata teaches or taught.



I've seen Dillman do that same trick. The only problem with that is speed of the attack, angle of attack, timing of the attack, and the ability to see the attack be able to make all the adjustments in second. Anyone who can do that can make outlandish amounts of money in Pride, UFC, KOG, etc, or even teaching them if they have no desire to fight.

Dillman is a big, strong, seventh dan former tournament champion who used to hold the world ice breaking record and wrestle bears and so forth. Strong guy.Tough guy.Sure he can hurt your arm if he hits it hard.As for anyone who can do that in combat making outlandish amounts of money, let me tell you about that: If I was interested in so doing, teaching this for a lot of money, it would have to be promoted, money would have to be invested, etc.I'm no businessman, and I am selective as to who I teach what,I believe Taika is the same.


I'm not anti anything, contrary to popular belief, if something is proven to work, emphasis on PROVEN, I will be the first one in line to learn it.

Tell you what: Get in touch with Mike Minor at www.ryushu.com , he handles the Oyata videos, and get that first tape. If it looks phony to you, go no further, but if you see what I saw, get in touvch with the people in the org, Mike is one, and go to a seminar or a dojo, and see and feel for yourself.

This stuff is as real as any Jiujitsu, see it, try it, learn it, use it.


Hey, what do you think of Yoshida? What a fighter, I am impressed.

Heard a bit about that, quite impressive fighter.


Gracie and Frye, both down, yep that's pretty impresive.;)

Long live the new King in that Venue.:D

Take Care, and see if you can get ahold of some video.Safer toscope it out from a distance first, believe me who went right in to my Sensei's dojo and got the Beating.

Goju Man
5th December 2002, 02:34
I have been taken down many times by strikes to the inside and outside of forearm, so much pain can be caused that the possibility of passing out is more than apparent. Pain not science.

Hank, of course lethal techniques are out in nhb, as they are in the dojo as well. All those other "pain" techniques are allowed. If it were as useful as they are claimed to be, believe me they would be used. In the gaurd, if you can pull off that tremendous forearm "pain" hit, you could have the guy tapping out for dear life.


Yoshida? Can you brief us.

Yoshida is a Japanese gold medalist Judoka. He fought Royce Gracie in Pride, and allthough IMO the fight was prematurely stopped, he dominated Gracie non the less. Next, he fought Don "the predator" Frye, who is a Judo BB (supposedly), and a world class NHB fighter. He fought Frye basically without throwing a kick or punch, just took him down with o uchi gari, when the position was turned, he sinched in an arm bar (juji gatamae) and submitted him in the first round. That's impressive folks. BTW, he fought wearing a gi.

kusanku
7th December 2002, 01:14
The arm strikes or atemi jutsu could certainly be used in a tournament, and in some, I think they have been, But usually the Kenpo people who learn them have their own bogu tournaments, with their own rules, and as Hank said,the tournament fighting, even here, is one mindset, the goshinjutsu is another.

I have used wrist takedowns on an opponent , who had mounted me, in fact, I allowed him to do so, and blocked the punches as the Gracies do with palm strikes inside and upwards, secured a wrist, turned the arm out, locked the shoulder and pointed it at the ear, and pushed up and way, throwing the mounted opponent off of me.He was sandan in JJ.Did a rollout and said, 'That worked REAL GOOD, John!':-)I did not try the atemi arm strikes here, as I didn't want to hurt anyone, merely to remove them.

I have removed a guard from around my waist, by pinching the femoral nerves and watching the opponent roll away yelling.

In another guard, I used the Boston Crab to apply a spinelock,and double leglock Thank you Gene LeBell.:D

Fopr a cross choke, push or slap the elbows straight in towarfds each other and watch the choke not work and become a double arm lock on the choker.Judo defense here.

Always check Judo first.They usually been there, done that.

For a round kick, block as the Thai boxers do with both arms out, and then grab and O Uchi Gari, make a wish.This is dependent on seeing the kick coming of course.It is most important here, not to block such a kick with ones head, or allow it to contact a straight lower leg, or use the rib intercept on it.:D

For a hook punch, throw shuto to the side into the elbow crease, that hurts the arm pretty good, especially if you step into it as you throw.

For an uppercut, drop the shuto or forearm and weight onto the punch, timing here is everything too.

For a jab, stay out of range and keeo the guard up.Too close and you can't block one. Contrarily, if you jab firt, neither can the opponent.

These are kumite and randori type waza with a contest mentality.

The stuff Hank Sensei was speaking about, goes more like this:

Suddenly the opponent from nowhere is in your face. Your arms go up reflexively as you sidestep and your fingers straighten, one arm strikes with bone edge or shuto into the oncoming punch, if inside, into and towrds you with one hand blackboarding down the arm to the inside wrist and the other either shutoing tto the neck, with a brachial arm stun or shuto to neckal area:D, or hiting the bicep belly a good one.It should numb the opponent's arm if you even hit just the arm, or may even give a tko, there are nerves there you see, and you just hit one nerve process at two locations or more.

If however it fails to ko or cause pain, it at least stops the strike from hitting you and enables you to counterstrike, grab, lock , throw and takedown.All the time you move and turn in on the opponent, and don't allow him a second or a chance.Stret defense mentality, no tournament, a ref wouldn't see a technique and in a contact tournament, the opponent may be keeping the distance controlled and not allow the waza.

What can I tell you? Two different things going down here.

I'm also in agreement with Hank, never seen a real old style kartateka as such, of great skill, enter one of these things.Guess we just saw what happens when a good judoka does, though.

The karate guys I saw enter the UFC all tried to do high tournament kicks on a deep mat against grapplers, not the brightest thing you ever saw or heard of.:D I actually told everyone what was gonna happen there beforehand.Also said if we ever get a real world class judoka in there, gonna be Hell to pay for someone.Was, too, wasn't there?:D

Now is everyone gonna study Judo like I did thirty six years ago?

When I entered Kenpo, it was because I saw and felt there, something Judo didn't emphasize as much, not lacked but didn't emphasize, that being very powerful and effective strikes, kicks and intercepts.At high levbels of both, techniques become very subtle, refined and scary. Both use contact training against fully resisting opponents.

Re Yoshida-San:I have had the honor to do randori at special seminars and clases, with some world class Judoka, and my experience is, when they get hold of you, its all over now.:D

Where and when you use the strikes Hank refers to to the insdie and outside of the arm, is when the oppponent is straight punching, often to the outside, and when round punching, to the inside. Many of the strikes are done two handed, and hit at the inside or outside at or above the elbow, and at the inside or outside of the wrist, using angle, momentum and direction as well as weight dropping body mechanics familiar to a good boxer, but with karate specific techniques.One hand catches or blocks the punch at inside and the other crosses over or under the arm and you gain control, and apply.

I haven't tried this striking, on the ground under a mounted opponent, it may be without ability to drop weight, it would not be effective or as effective, stepping it is certainly so.The crossing intercept however is kkey to the wristlock and armlock throw off I used, and it works quite well from the ground and underneath position. From above it works as an arm and elbow pinning technique.

When you analyze these waza in hindsight, there is little or nothing mysterious about them.Its just that one might not think of putting certain known factors together to achieve a result.

Its just like Judo;when you understand the skills, drills and science, beneath the waza, then they are quite clear, but the first time a person never having heard of Judo, or who at least never studied it, is hit with a kuzushi(unbalancing maneuver0 they may not even feel, and goes head over tin can on to the mat, it seems like magic.

The problem is, that when karate went to Japan, much of the m,echanics underlying the effectiveness were not imported, and so people saw blocks instead of two handed intercepting techniques employing gravity and weight shifting , raising and dropping body mechanics, they underestimated the importance of tai sabaki, and said many of the kata techniques, that only work with these other factors engaged, were called useless, meanigless, or outdated.But they are as scientific as Judo, and as effective.

Since Judo is done as a sport, a Judoka may enter a NHB tournament. But the old style Karate is done as a martial art strictly, and thus, the mentality is like koryu kenjutsu, you only compete within strict rules to avoid injuring people,. as Judoka do not use atemi waza in shiai, as Yoshida san demonstrated.Judo is also a martial art, but the more serious kansetsu waza(tuite0 and atemi waza( kyusho Jutsu) arte not utilized in the sport idea. This was the genius of Jigoro Kano.

In Okinawan Kenpo and koryu karate, Bogu was the answer, and limitation of tuite, so that kyusho could be targeted but not injured, and joints be kept safe in competition.

The trouble is, there are death techniques, and there are pain techniques, and standing the pain techniques at least could be used, and sometimes have been.Keith Hackney used a Kyusho strike to take out the sumo in early UFC.

White Tiger Kenpo I believe, an offshoot of the Ed Parker Kenpo, a third generation descendant of the Okinawan kenpo done by Chokon Motobu, the latter the direct descendant of what Hank and myself practice today.

Regards,

Rob Alvelais
7th December 2002, 14:53
Originally posted by kusanku
The arm strikes or atemi jutsu could certainly be used in a tournament, and in some, I think they have been, But usually the Kenpo people who learn them have their own bogu tournaments, with their own rules, and as Hank said,the tournament fighting, even here, is one mindset, the goshinjutsu is another.



What tournaments? Not under the WKF umbrella or the AAU. Striking the limbs is prohibited.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
7th December 2002, 14:58
Originally posted by kusanku

White Tiger Kenpo I believe, an offshoot of the Ed Parker Kenpo, a third generation descendant of the Okinawan kenpo done by Chokon Motobu, the latter the direct descendant of what Hank and myself practice today.

Regards,


The alleged connection between Choki Motobu and James Mitose has been discredited in another thread here. Is that the connection between White Tiger Kempo and Oki Kempo you're referring to John?

Rob

Hank Irwin
8th December 2002, 03:13
I have used strikes to the arms many times. They were not seen as strikes most times. What sometimes looks as a block is not. If you take "blocks" coupled with arm/hand conditioning the effect is more of a strike than a defensive intent. You condition the arms/hands to do what? Break the weapons of your opponent. That doesn't sound defensive in nature to me. Most sport practioners abhore arm conditioning or for that matter, are not taught to them as a prerequesite to kumite, shame, shame, shame. Barely tap them and they fall apart. But, koreatay is becoming more popular. You have to have the right thinking though. If you can't(nancy-boys) stand pain, you in twouble.(Huh Huh Huh) Life is filled with pain that sometimes teaches you nothing, but that life is hard, but Karate-Do on the other hand teaches you something everytime you experience it. :D


Sport will give the beginner a taste of contact, but for the most part the dojo will supply more realism than any tournament. The benefits of tournys is you don't fight your fellow classmates. For those that study traditional ways, most sport oriented events lose their appeal eventually, unless you are ego driven and need that much attention. I have sent orange belts out that have dotted the eyes of blackbelt instructors. :cool:


I feel so fortunate in that my path crossed the same path of my Senseis. We have been together since the early 70's. I share the lineage of Matsumura,Oyata,Kise,Ueichi and a few others by way of my Sensei. Not the GI stuff that was brought over here to the US. My Sensei grew up in Okinawa from a young age. Most of what the GI's learned was "school-boy karate" even though they have not the slightest clue. My Sensei on the other hand had a different outlook. Being a dependent on Okinawa in the 50's & 60's was not a pleasant outing. The rivalry was difficult to say the least for non-Okinawan youth, and being involved with a respected Sensei was sometimes difficult? when it came to dealing with your peers? Hmmmm...lots of fights. Fights between little Karate Masters to be!!!! Holy Mackeral, to be a fly on the wall at times huh?



We live in a time when our resources seem un-limited, let us hope we do wisely with what has been left to us. Domo

kusanku
8th December 2002, 15:56
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais


What tournaments? Not under the WKF umbrella or the AAU. Striking the limbs is prohibited.

Rob

Bogu torunaments and NHB tournaments both allow it.It was NHB and Pride tournaments that I was referring to. Unless they too, prhibit striking to the limbs. However, that is interesting that the traditional Japan style tournaments do not allow that. The USKA used to, I think, at least we never penalized it when reffing at those shiai.But that was in the past.

kusanku
8th December 2002, 16:02
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais



The alleged connection between Choki Motobu and James Mitose has been discredited in another thread here. Is that the connection between White Tiger Kempo and Oki Kempo you're referring to John?

Rob

It was, Rob, and only a very minor point. Has it been discredited creditably, or just by concensus?Doesn't matter, anyway.Point was, Hacnkney was using a point strike, palm to jaw, to take out the sumo, and his teacher wrote a leter to that effect. Maybe he even said, it was a White Crane point strike, but anyone using the name Kenpo usually has some connection with Okinawan karate somewhere.

The focus of this thread was about the efficacy of Taika Oyata's techniques. Anyone who has never seen what Hank and I are talking about, or felt them, should really check them out.I believe one of your teachers has.:-)

And our connection with Motobu through Nakamura is real enough.Although there were greater teachers than he, too, involved, like Yabu for instance, and Kuniyoshi and Sakiyama.

kusanku
8th December 2002, 16:11
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
[B]I have used strikes to the arms many times. They were not seen as strikes most times. What sometimes looks as a block is not. If you take "blocks" coupled with arm/hand conditioning the effect is more of a strike than a defensive intent. You condition the arms/hands to do what? Break the weapons of your opponent. That doesn't sound defensive in nature to me. Most sport practioners abhore arm conditioning or for that matter, are not taught to them as a prerequesite to kumite, shame, shame, shame. Barely tap them and they fall apart. But, koreatay is becoming more popular. You have to have the right thinking though. If you can't(nancy-boys) stand pain, you in twouble.(Huh Huh Huh) Life is filled with pain that sometimes teaches you nothing, but that life is hard, but Karate-Do on the other hand teaches you something everytime you experience it. :D

Recently, I visted a nearby Kobayashi ryu dojo.The nidan instructor, a Tom Cruise lookalike, challenged me to bang arms , in front of his wife.He told me how he made his instructor quit.How he made deveryone quit.How he was the best arm conditioner he knew of.Loudly, I agreed to do so.He was whaling away, for a minute or so, when he got a strange look on his face.:DThen I shifted to a deeper stance and started putting in the hip, and he flinched away like the wuss he was. The Nancy-Boy. Huh Huh huh.:D

In front of his wife.Har, har.:D

I then told him, I had trained fourteen years with his seniors, we used to do that stuff all the time. Kenpo and Shorin people that trained well, weren't going to hurt their arms on no Tom Cruise lookalike.Heheheheheh.



Sport will give the beginner a taste of contact, but for the most part the dojo will supply more realism than any tournament. The benefits of tournys is you don't fight your fellow classmates. For those that study traditional ways, most sport oriented events lose their appeal eventually, unless you are ego driven and need that much attention. I have sent orange belts out that have dotted the eyes of blackbelt instructors. :cool:

Oh, Yas.Many many times.



I feel so fortunate in that my path crossed the same path of my Senseis. We have been together since the early 70's. I share the lineage of Matsumura,Oyata,Kise,Ueichi and a few others by way of my Sensei. Not the GI stuff that was brought over here to the US. My Sensei grew up in Okinawa from a young age. Most of what the GI's learned was "school-boy karate" even though they have not the slightest clue. My Sensei on the other hand had a different outlook. Being a dependent on Okinawa in the 50's & 60's was not a pleasant outing. The rivalry was difficult to say the least for non-Okinawan youth, and being involved with a respected Sensei was sometimes difficult? when it came to dealing with your peers? Hmmmm...lots of fights. Fights between little Karate Masters to be!!!! Holy Mackeral, to be a fly on the wall at times huh?

You and I were both quite fortunate in our teachers, Hank Sensei..both of them are sure not anyone to mess with.Heck, even we aren't.Modesty forbids.:D




We live in a time when our resources seem un-limited, let us hope we do wisely with what has been left to us. Domo

Indeed so. Hank, have you seen the kata thread on the Ryukyuan site?Its a hoot.:DAll I could do was laugh, I think Ron is having a little fun back at me about my Crane comments.

Lets see, whom else can we really get going on here?:DWe should go talk to Kata Master there, and say, Dozo, Onegaishimasu.:D

kusanku
8th December 2002, 16:18
Originally posted by kusanku


Indeed so. Hank, have you seen the kata thread on the Ryukyuan site?Its a hoot.:DAll I could do was laugh, I think Ron is having a little fun back at me about my Crane comments.

Lets see, whom else can we really get going on here?:DWe should go talk to Kata Master Ron there, and say, Dozo, Onegaishimasu.:D

Hank Irwin
9th December 2002, 02:47
John Sensei, we live on the heels of ancient Bushi you know? Studying the Ko-Do of the forefathers of Karate-Do. And trying to do as they wished as handed down from them. I could not see doing To-De without koreatay. Makiwara for that matter too. Developmental power is lost without them. Koreatay and makiwara build the body and test the indurance and commitment of your endeavors. When you can stop an opponent with contact to their arms that is reaping the benefits of conditioning. Properly conditioned arms will numb an attackers extremities to the point of them not being able to use them.


Conditioning takes time and should not be rushed. All forms of Okinawan Jutsu had some type of conditioning. If not the makiwara the heavy bag and so many more. I myself can't say enough about it. It makes such a difference in kumite. Speaking of which, kumite in Okinawa was pretty damned dangerous. There was a lot of rivarly, between GI's. This is probably where the crap came from to begin with. The proven methods were always the ones that worked, time after time, and developed long ago. Many good GI fighters came by way of Okinawa. But there were also GIs that got their training and diplomas by way of fraud, and stretching the hell out of the truth about how long they actually trained in Okinawa or China or Japan.



Kumite is true test of skills. The old style shiais are my favorite. Full-contact, elbows and knees allowed, 30 seconds on ground. This was not done with bogu gear though. You had to be trained hard for least a year to participate in one of these events. Kempo head and hand gear, body gear optional, since it would limit your agility. This was not a novice event either. No strikes to spine or eye gouges or biting were allowed either. Points were taken in the event of a draw, which usually never happened, but point was ko or knock-down. If you got your opponent to tap out in 30 seconds you won the match. Scarey for most sport practitioners even though they will say Na aah!!



John Sensei, you say there is fire in Ryukyu land forum? Again? I don't know what Rons problem is. He seems to start stuff everytime he opens his mouth. I don't know, all I can say is, if it walks and talks like a duck, well, you know what I mean. I will have to stroll over to Oki section for a little while I guess. heiwa :D

Goju Man
9th December 2002, 03:03
No strikes to spine or eye gouges or biting were allowed either. Points were taken in the event of a draw, which usually never happened, but point was ko or knock-down. If you got your opponent to tap out in 30 seconds you won the match. Scarey for most sport practitioners even though they will say Na aah!!

Sounds a lot like the dreaded no holds barred fighting with the exeption of you might be on the ground a bit longer than thirty seconds. You know, the nhb fights have been criticized on here as not being real, people only seeking ego boosts, etc. You are now contradicting many others on here. Just thought I'd point that out Hank.

It was written on this forum that the Gracies didn't challenge Oyata because of his knoledge and abilities, etc. As I recall, that challenge was an "open" challenge to anyone and everyone. They specifically named Mike Tyson because he was considered the "baddest" fighter out there. I didn't see Oyata runing out to accept the challenge either. I don't think he would have accepted it if he were named anyhow.

Rob Alvelais
9th December 2002, 05:20
Originally posted by kusanku


It was, Rob, and only a very minor point. Has it been discredited creditably, or just by concensus?

I believe it was Charles Goodin, on his website, that had an interview of Motobu's nephew, or other close relative. This person had no knowledge of Mitose.

Rob

hector gomez
9th December 2002, 15:44
HERE COMES SANTA CLAUS!
HERE COMES SANTA CLAUS!
RIGHT DOWN SANTA CLAUS LANE!
VIXEN AND BLITZEN AND ALL HIS REINDEER
ARE PULLING ON THE REINS.
BELLS ARE RINGING,CHILDREN SINGING;
ALL IS MERRY AND BRIGHT.
HANG YOUR STOCKING AND SAY YOUR PRAYERS,
'CAUSE SANTA CLAUS COMES TONIGHT.


HERE COMES SANTA CLAUS!
HERE COMES SANTA CLAUS!
RIGHT DOWN SANTA CLAUS LANE!
HE'S GOT A BAG THAT IS FILLED WITH TOYS
FOR THE BOYS AND GIRLS AGAIN.
HEAR THOSE SLEIGH BELLS JINGLE AND JANGLE,
WHAT A BEAUTIFUL SIGHT.
JUMP IN BED,COVER UP YOUR HEAD,
'CAUSE SANTA CLAUS COMES TONIGHT.




Hector"I could not resist"Gomez

Goju Man
9th December 2002, 22:46
Dear Santa, Can I have a bunkai with hidden lethal techniques for Christmas?:D

Goju Man
9th December 2002, 23:11
Don't tease me.

Hank Irwin
9th December 2002, 23:27
Ahh, to be young and impetitious.:D

Goju Man
9th December 2002, 23:57
Ahh, to be young and impetitious.

I resemble that remark.:D

kusanku
11th December 2002, 21:30
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais


I believe it was Charles Goodin, on his website, that had an interview of Motobu's nephew, or other close relative. This person had no knowledge of Mitose.

Rob

He might not have, but still have trained with Motobu, who after all, taught a number of students in Japan. Plus, in Japan, many people had more than pone name, light Uing-Arng Li, also known as Masutatsu Oyama.:-)

My point is here, that while Motobu's nephew, may not have heard about Mitose, it was Mitose's uncle who was supposed to have trained with Choki Motobu, and this could surely have been possible since the uncle may not have been named Mitose.

This is anyway, what information I have been able to get about this.

Mike Mitchell: You are underestimating Taika, and his people. I am sure you are a very scary guy. As for us(Hank, me and others) relying only on kyusho, you haven't been paying attention to anything I have written here or elsewhere.My techniques are based on three principles: Interception, evasion and unbalancing.Without these three principles, all that is left is hitting, locking, throwing, holding.


Which leaves you very vulnerable to opponents same stuff.

Kyusho or vital points, are incorpoated into all levels of technique since it is stupide to hit where it doesn't hurt.:D

As for nhb tournaments, no one on here dissed them,, you got a big chip on your shoulder there.

As for the stuff Hank mentioned,I did some of that too.That's why I said, ben there, done that.

I started in Judo, as senior student at the dojo I used to take on all comers, I would let them get me in a hold of their choice, lock it on, and escape and reverse it in sixty seconds.I never lost, I was a brown belt, sankyu, and I was only drawn once, by a MSU wreslting champ.He did not however, wish to take me on standing.This was in the Sixties, so none of this stuff is new to me.

So, give it a rest. I am not one to be taken in by frauds.Kyusho jutsu and tuite are real, they hurt really bad, they work really well, and they weren';t made up by Taika Oyata. Since they weren't taught in the way he teaches them by Nakamura and others he trained with, nor by Uehara who teaches Motobu Ryu Udundi,though those are effective as well,he must have learned from some other teachers. He says it was Uhufushuge and Wakinaguri No Tanmei, it may well have been.

You can't prove otherwise,Mike, and there's an end on't, as Dr. Johnson used to say..

:D

hector gomez
12th December 2002, 14:03
Statistics show that getting this out of the way earlier on in childhood leads to a more healthy outlook later on in life.

http://www.citybeat.com/archives/1996/issue304/cover1.html





Hector Gomezhttp://www.citybeat.com/archives/1996/issue304/cover1.html (http://)

kusanku
13th December 2002, 00:19
Vengel Claus is comiiing, to town!:D

Naw, healthy outlook sounds good to me.Hank Sensei, good writing!

Hector, nice to see you on here again.Happy holidays to all.

Mike, that's fine with me, I'm not personally attacking you or anyone else, and I bet I look scarier than you do.Kinda like when the Round Mound of harmlessness turns out to be a Demon or a Bampire.:D

Anyway, that's enough about me.

As for Taika's lineage, its fine, he trained with all the Masters , as they all got together opnce a month on Okinawan and trained together.My own teacher saw them do this enough.

As for one of Taika's yudansha, take that problem up with him or her.

As for Kyusho waza, they exist, kyusho exist, there isn't a debate there.But those are very advanced waza and most people can not make them work.Get one of Taika's vieos from Mike Minor, I recommend the one on Naihanchi Shodan No Kata, and everything I have ever written about will suddenly make all the sense it never has to you.

And to all,a good night.:-)

Santa Vengel

Hank Irwin
13th December 2002, 03:58
Domo arigato John Sensei. I am in agreement with you. But, get ANY tape from Oyata Sensei, and if you aren't impressed with what he can do, you have no vision at all. Just the Pinans alone will make you think deeply, and that's not even including the kyusho or tuite that goes along with it. Way too much school-boy karate being taught. Semper Fi!! :D

Kimura
13th December 2002, 04:23
John,

I am just having a little fun here at the end of the year,"WOW"it's seems like we have debated this pressure point stuff to death in different threads over the year.

I agree with you John that stuff does work & it can hurt real bad if one strikes the right vital spot,I don't care who you are it can be deadly.

This is the problem I run into with pressure points and I really don't want to sound like a broken record here because I am sure I have stated this many times in the past.


Fighting effectivley wether it is in the streets,bars,dojo,or tournaments is about using high percentage techniques and not relying totaly on a very highly elusive target.


Now I know you yourself have stated in the past that to make pressure points works one needs the fighting spirit and basics of years of hard training to make them work and I agree with you.

I don't know about some of our lazer pin point budo members but I am having a really hard time just making contact with a large target let alone a small vital area,that's not to say I would not try to make that vital point of contact work but I would not invest alot training time in this area as there seems to be other areas of a fight that seem to have a higher profile need of attention because of the high percentage ratio of different ranges were a fight will be fought.


From my own experience(I guess everyone has there own experience) of how real fights work,but my experience tells me one second you might be in a striking range and the next moment you might be in grappling range,fighters that do not train in the grappling arts sometimes do not understand how hard it really is to strike effectively when one is being outmanuvered or out positioned in grappling enviorment.

Classic example "I WILL JUST STRIKE HIM IN THE NUTS,THROAT,TEMPLE,EYES ETC, IF HE GETS ME IN THAT SITUATION"

WRONG,The person in the best postion will be better prepared to administer any of the so called vital strikes.


I really don't think any of us here really dissagree that much on the effectiveness and consequenses of a vital strike as opposed to how much training time one should devote to this portion of ones fighting strategy.


Hector Gomez

kusanku
13th December 2002, 23:27
Hank Sensei-
You said it, for sure, and any of those tapes is truly impressive and eye-opening.And though I was in USAF, Semper Fi back at you, my teachers were both Marines.My Karate teachers that is, my Judo sensei were Air Force.

But we were all in it together that is for sure!

Hector , my friend-
I must of course, agree with you here as well.
The Okinawan styles as I was taught them,of Kenpo and Shorin Ryu, did not terribly emphasize pressure points per se , until really after shodan, when someone had enough control to even think about using them at all.

It is true, that the things emphasized in these arts, are like, Balance, stance, stepping, turning, form, power, speed, penetration, sharp striking power.Some defenses against holds, and grabs, some tsakedowns and sweeps, defense against grapplers was taught, and many of us back then, were judoka taking karate, so many knew grappling to begin with.

Many thousands of repetitions of standing and stepping basics, combinations, and self defense techniques against most typesd of attacks,were the emphasis,bag and makiwara,arm and hand and leg conditioning, physical conditioning, and kumites, as well as kata, were what , and in about that order, beginner to black belts learned.

Only after the moves of the kata were drilled to prefection, werer applications explained usually, and only at about fourth dan were tuite and kyusho as such, emphasized in Kenpo back then, I was fourth before I saw it.

At that time,. one's accuracy is or should be there. Its true that in Shorin ryu I was shown some kyusho waza at green belt,but I already had brown in Judo and some Kenpo training, so I wasn't really a green belt after seven years.:D but we did the same kata three thousand times too, and made sure of pinpoint accuracy in striking.

Still those things are indeed not easy to do in a real deal.

Having said that, if one gets a lock on an attacker, after intercepting/striking/ evading and unbalancing, then one can hold him still and use the kyusho strike if one has to.

And having said that as you know, them things are sure dangerous, so its best not to ever use them, unless you really really got to.

Best strikes I know are what some call shotgun strikes, that hit a lot of areas simultaneously or in rapid sucession with one moving technique, like the sweep of a sword, and lay that attacker out while prioviding defense, such as the full circling knife hand strike that Kyokushin calls the roundhouse knifehand block.

That one move has a whole art concealed in it.Kyusho gonna get impacted when that thing slides/scrapes and smacks into an attacker as it is used in the Okinawan styles.Remember that the cat stance has the possibillity of the low front leg snap kick in it, the rrear hand rolls back a kick or punch and can lock an elbow and strike ribs while the front hand comes down from above and can strike along the jawline at the throat and neck areas.If they come in close, it can be downward elbow strikes and kneee to groin and or thigh.Also lock the elbow and step on the foot and break stuff.

What part do points play in all that? Well, a bunch of 'em tend to get hit, but if you miss it ain't that big a deal with all else happening.:D

How much time should kyusho or tuite training take in the arts? It depends at what stage one is. I think first, learning to fall, throw, hold, lock, strike, kick, block, dodge, and turn in and out on the opponent, with all bascis, then some two person training, conditioning, then the whole ball game with kyusho etc. This might be quite some time after learning to make the entire body be a kysho.:-)

But, using model of Chinese arts- ten years for the basic art, ten for tuite, or chin na, and ten for dian xue or kyusho, thirty years.

Kyusho and tuite work at the level of skill a person has at basics.

Take care and happy Holidays to all,

Goju Man
13th December 2002, 23:56
But, using model of Chinese arts- ten years for the basic art, ten for tuite, or chin na, and ten for dian xue or kyusho, thirty years.

Hey guys, you tell that bully that you'll meet him outside in thirty years.:D

kusanku
16th December 2002, 02:16
Even better-tell 'im to step ouside, then lock the door behind him,it works and its pretty funny, at least till he gets back in.

It takes a long time to master the more refined levels of any art. Many never reach that level, many never want to.

Yes,its easier to learn the common, muscle powered techniques of the well known and beloved athletic sports,this can be done sometimes in a matter of months, a year or two at most.

But just because you can wrestle doesn't make you Dan Gable, or box, make you Evander Holyfield.

So in karate, not everyone wants to put in the needed time to learn aspects of an art that does take years, even decades, to master.

So, tuite and kyusho jutsu, in karate, high level skills and they are high level because you need a high level to make them work especially against another trained martial artist.

Of course, if some fool grabs you at a party you can pretzel him with green belt proficiency.:D

Heck, besides kyusho and tuite or points 'n' joints and body mechanics, there is the high level energy neutralization of Chinese internal arts, which many also pooh pooh, until they ever experience it.

When you do, you realize that someone has a better understanding of moving forces than you do and can utilize the conjunction of their body and yours to send you across a large distance.No magic, just skill and physics.

But as I have said, wwhen a person first stands up and locks on with even a moderately skillful judoka, you gonna think it was magic how he or she turned you over and onto the mat so fast and without apparent effort.Or how they can lock a kesa gatame on you on a mat such that you really have a hard time of it, trying to escape.

Its all about knowledge, and those who have it, and those who do not have it, and then who has the skill to apply that knowledge, and how long it can take to get both.

Lets use judo as an example because it has no real secrets.With a thumb and forefiinger, you can unbalance a person to any of eight directions using very small almost imperceptible movements that lead into a throwing waza.

Using the same movements to set up a locking technique, and it isn;t all that differernt from the high level tuite of karate, except the karate moves are generally smaller and tighter in.Results are somehwat similar.

Judo also, at a high level, teaches atemi waza, which is kyusho jutsu.

In the two person kata of judo, locks, strikes to points and zones, throws, holds and other waza are all combined for effective self defense.

But many judoka only ever learn the go kyo and shimmeisho no waza, the fifty-seven throws, the katame waza, m,atwork techniques, kansetsu and shime waza, basic jointlocks and strangling, and maybe some rescusictation techniqes.Maybe thats all they need for self defense.

Yet the kata and the goshinjutsu of Judo, contain more eficient and very dangerous waza,which if learned and combined with those techniques one learns as basic judo, make it a more complete art.

So also, regard karate, with its basic punching, striking, kicking, dodging,stepping and turning and blocking, which like the judo basics have been made a sport, also,when you combine them with the kata and goshinjutsu techniues including atemi jutsu, kyusho jutsu and tuite as well as revival techniques, make karate a more complete art.

When I was a beginner in Judo, my teachers who had studied in Japan and Okinawa, and also did karate, told me this:'Judo starts with throws and locks and holds and ends with strikes and kicks and punches.Karate starts with strikes and kicks and punches and ends with throws and locks and holds,If you learn judo and learn karate, you pretty well cover it.'

This of course was aded to the mention that karate giuys usually do lousy locks and throws, and judo guys usually do lousy kicks and punches, therefore taking both would cover that deficiency.

But some judo people do good punches and kicks, and some karate people do good locks and throws.Nevertheless, better to be safe than sorry.

Yo Ho Ho, merry Christmas
from Santa Vengel.

Goju Man
16th December 2002, 22:19
So, tuite and kyusho jutsu, in karate, high level skills and they are high level because you need a high level to make them work especially against another trained martial artist.
The problem here John is that I've NEVER seen it performed on another trained martial artists, let alone one who is attacking and defending as well. I don't call some of those "relics" I've seen in some videos "skilled karateka".

Heck, besides kyusho and tuite or points 'n' joints and body mechanics, there is the high level energy neutralization of Chinese internal arts, which many also pooh pooh, until they ever experience it.
All of which are allowed in any reality fighting arena. The reason you can't use them is because they don't work. You know, it takes far less time to become proficient in Judo than Karate. In a few years, you can have a pretty damn good Judoka but not so in Karate. The reason I pointed out Hank's post was because everone always talks of nhb fights as sport, yet when someone like hank describes these "brutal" kumite of Okinawa, sounds just like the UFC or Pride. Even bogu kumite, which is very good, doesn't have ANY technique that cannot be used in nhb. So in reality, there's no better way to test your skills in kumite than nhb type of kumite. But let's realize the reality of the argument. None of these mixed martial artists will fit in here because they represent a sacriledge (sp) to many traditionalists. They don't wear the uniforms, except bjj, don't have a ranking system, have no fancy titles, don't do things they way they were fifty years ago, and most importantly, have to train, "really train". They don't believe in "mythical" magic techniques because the few who have tried them have failed miserably. The traditionalists then bad mouth the practitioner and not the technique. If it takes that long to really master, it will never be of use to you for you will be too old to use it.

That said Johnny, I wish you and your a very Merry Christmas. BTW, i read that you're finally gonna get ni kyu for Christmas. :D

Hank Irwin
17th December 2002, 04:12
Seito(orthadox) Okinawan To-De is up and close. Maim, rather than cripple, cripple rather than kill, killing being last resort. These are not techniques that can be brought to the sport arena. This was exhibited so in some of the earliest Olympic events. Pancracha, fisticuffs & wrestling combined... lot of deaths. Needless to say, you will find most that are students involved with an old Okinawan system that teaches tuite jutsu,kyusho jutsu,atemi jutsu,torite jutsu and such(much more) AT an advanced level are not that forthcoming at giving a very descriptive answer to questions concerning such. Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing.( I've been at it 35 years, it don't come easy) An oncoming foe seeking to wrestle you down at the legs will submit with one properly placed elbow on the back of the spine every time. Then roll him over and tear his throat out. I don't think this would go too well in any event, except amongst warriors dueling it out. This may be one problem with mixed MA's per say, you spend so much time trying to find the ultimate fighting techniques within other systems that you lose sight of your intended path and what your style has to offer you from digilent training over the years. If sport is your path MA's never were. Some eventually find MA's more than just a fad or hobby of late, some not. To each his own, but use what works for you, discard what doesn't work for you. And don't disregard anything, you may find something useful in what appears not.

hector gomez
17th December 2002, 18:34
OK,

These so called mixed martial arts events are preventing what percentage of traditional karate techniques from being administered?5%,10% let's just round it off and say 20% of all karate techniques are not allowed in these mixed martial arts event's or sports.

This leaves us with 80%of all karate techniques that "ARE" allowed to be performed in these types of events,I will even go a step further in stating that these events allow more karate techniques to be performed than at any other type of legal or sanctioned world karate tournament or karate dojo known to mankind.

Imagin for a second if 30 years ago,I would have mentioned to a karateman that he can utilize 80% of his repitore in a event,they would have been licking their chops and asking were the registrations forms are.

Closed karate fist almost anywhere except groin area or back of the head and this goes for elbows and knees strikes,kicks are allowed to almost anywhere except maybe a straight locking kick to a knee joint.

All Karate steps,movements and blocks of any kind are all allowed,If we cannot make it happen with 80% of our arsenal we need to take some serious notes and reavaluate.

I really don't want to get into a nasty debate here with anybody because I am not really advocating that mixed martial arts is the best system for the street or that sport competitions are realistic for self defense but we need to sit up and take notice that alot of the strategies and situations in these so called sports can be effectivley crossed over for real life threatning encounters.

No,I am not jumping to guard in the street with all of his buddies standing by but if I am forcefully put on my back(something I realize could never happen to a good karate man)I want to aleast have a clue of how to position myself and possibly be able to get back up quickly and runaway.



Hector Gomez

CEB
17th December 2002, 19:07
Originally posted by hector gomez
OK,

Closed karate fist almost anywhere except groin area or back of the head and this goes for elbows and knees strikes,kicks are allowed to almost anywhere except maybe a straight locking kick to a knee joint.

Hector Gomez

I didn't know that. I don't follow this stuff much but I did watch a tape of a UFC thing one time and this big shootfighter boy, I think his name was Varlens, got his man down of the mat but could get much going wrestling wise so he start cracking down on the back of his melon with elbow strikes and the official stopped the match, so I thought the entire head was a target. What happened someone get killed and they changed the rules?

hector gomez
17th December 2002, 19:52
Ed,

NO,I think there was a casualty somewhere in europe during it's inception but I believe it is actualy much safer than boxing were competitors are forced to stand and slug with eachother round after round causing severe brain damage later on in life.

The sport has been cleaned up somwhat from the early days were the sales pitch was "EVERYTHING GOES" And although it is not really a NO holds barred match,it is as close as we can get in this civilized society to having a one on one(mano a mano) with limited rules and still be acepted by the mainstream.

Ed,I am all in favor of safety not only for the competitors but also for the kids watching,they have added rounds and time limits along with most of the safety precautions regulated by the state comissions alowing this to become a legitimate sport.

I also believe that one does not have to enter a cage match or ring to absorb and apreciate the training methods,strategies and formulas being developed and proven constantly in mixed martial arts.

Hector Gomez

CEB
17th December 2002, 20:20
I hear what you are saying Hector. I remember watching the fight where Boom-Boom killed Kim. ( i think you are old enough to remember this fight) That should have never happened the ref should not have let it go that far. A young man died and Boom-Boom was never the same. It broke his heart and his spirit.

I've seen Ali in a post fight interview say he would never fight another contest with a certain ref. I don't even remember which fight, maybe it was Evangelista I'm not sure. His opponent had no guard left. Ali would pat him on the forehead and look at the ref. The ref wouldn't call the fight. Ali could have tore his head off but he had a lot of class in the ring. A fighter with less compassion might have had killed his opponent. That was Ali's beef in the post fight he said 'I could have killed that man'.

This is way off thread, but something I find interesting is that I find more camaraderie and a greater sense of brotherhood between contestants in combative arts such as Boxing, Judo, wrestling, ect.. than I find with many do-arts like Aikido and Non-contact karate-Do. Combatants who actually physically combat each other in the course of their play seem more freindly and more coordial after the match is done. I see way more fights break out at karate tag tournaments than I do at Judo tournaments. I guess it is hell try to be an idealist sometimes. :)

hector gomez
17th December 2002, 20:59
Yes,

I was actualy competing as an amatuer boxer when duk kook kim fought ray BOOM BOOM mancini,BOY do I remember the 14 rd. I actualy convinced my mom to watch this fight with me and boy she definitey did not want me boxing after that one.

I believe that fight caused the 15 rd title fights to be reduced to 12 rds ,anyway what you stated about the comradery among judo,boxing or any real physical contact sports is so true.

I find most people in the general public just like to focus on the ego talking brash type persona but I see mostly just the opposite,a genuine respect that most of these fighters have that only comes from knowing and apreciating the commitment and sacrifice needed just to compete,it is truly amazing.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
17th December 2002, 21:57
This is way off thread, but something I find interesting is that I find more camaraderie and a greater sense of brotherhood between contestants in combative arts such as Boxing, Judo, wrestling, ect.. than I find with many do-arts like Aikido and Non-contact karate-Do. Combatants who actually physically combat each other in the course of their play seem more freindly and more coordial after the match is done. I see way more fights break out at karate tag tournaments than I do at Judo tournaments. I guess it is hell try to be an idealist sometimes.
Ed, nice to hear from you. Merry Christmas. ;) The reason you find that is because there is no speculating who would have done what. Everywhere else it's just pure speculation.
Seito(orthadox) Okinawan To-De is up and close. Maim, rather than cripple, cripple rather than kill, killing being last resort. These are not techniques that can be brought to the sport arena.
Hank, what SPECIFIC techniques are we talking about?

Kumite is true test of skills. The old style shiais are my favorite. Full-contact, elbows and knees allowed, 30 seconds on ground. This was not done with bogu gear though. You had to be trained hard for least a year to participate in one of these events. Kempo head and hand gear, body gear optional, since it would limit your agility. This was not a novice event either. No strikes to spine or eye gouges or biting were allowed either. Points were taken in the event of a draw, which usually never happened, but point was ko or knock-down. If you got your opponent to tap out in 30 seconds you won the match. Scarey for most sport practitioners even though they will say Na aah!!
Is this sport or what? In the early UFC's, strikes to the back were allowed, and as Hector pointed out, no where in the world are you able to use more of the Karate arsenal than in those arenas, and as YOU pointed out above, even more in some cases. Kumite for traditionalists is reffered to as a true test of skill, yet when confronted about testing your skills in nhb, then they are reffered to as egotistical and we start talking about all the spirituality crap. You can't have it both ways.

Hank Irwin
18th December 2002, 02:47
We are crossing a real fine line here. As Martial Artists that can appreciate good technique, we must be careful as to how much reality we put into such matches Hahaha! Fostering martial values is easier than teaching martial arts . In real life I would seek to tear eyes, groin, mouth open, break limbs, possibly kill. These are NOT things to bring to the Sport Arena. Sport came from Combat Arts to begin with. There shouldn't be a debate actually of what is better here or such, only what is allowed. And that is again, a real fine line.:D

Hank Irwin
18th December 2002, 03:06
Mannysan, the matches I spoke of were from small schools. Clan schools. Not the Take My Dough variety. Strikes to the back were legal, not to the spine. You strike to the spine, you intend to cripple. A lot of matches went to the ground, but not most. Most were taken in form of KO. Many different kinds too. Most matches didn't last 2 minutes. If we ever got an event together where 6 dans and up of Koryu of all systems got together to have a UFC, we would lose so many Senseis the MA community would never be the same. What price for sports? And how much amusement is enough? That is not real Martial Arts to me.

Goju Man
18th December 2002, 11:58
Hank, I think we all would do whatever it takes in a street confrontation, but remember, the person with the best position is the one more likely to pull off those techniques. Remember, you're not the only one who can tear eyes, hit the groin, etc. What if you encounter another martial artist like yourself with the same ideas? If both of you are thinking tear eyes, hit groin, which one do you think will actually pull it off? The one in the best position. THAT is the concept of many kumite (where lethal techs. are not allowed) and sport venues like ufc and others. I would bet that a skilled ufc competitior in a street confrontation with another karateka, where both can tear eyes and hit the groin, the ufc fighter will have the greatest advantage. Moreso, he has something the other likely doesn't have, fighting experience. Adrenaline, nerves, and other such things are hard to duplicate in a controlled dojo kumite. The bullets aren't that real as the saying goes. Just give these guys some credit.

Hank Irwin
18th December 2002, 13:11
I am not trying to take away from them. I have seen some really good fighters. I competed for 10 years in all sorts of events. Points-no contact, with contact, without points, without pads, with pads, on the floor and in the street. As to combat, and old adage comes to mind, when 2 tigers fight, one of them dies. The other usually dies a few days later. True, this verse comes from an elder, but never the less, speaks of reality of it. I have met Martial Artists 30 years my senior that could wipe the floor with me, and that is present time speaking. I am 47 years old. My competition years were just an experiment, as it is with most. You see if what you are being taught works. Where you end up, you never know. Hopefully through the gates of Shaolin.

Goju Man
18th December 2002, 22:40
. Points-no contact, with contact, without points, without pads, with pads, on the floor and in the street.
Contact, you fought kyokushin or the like? Strange, usually everyone I have met that has fought THAT type of fight doesn't share you point of view.


As to combat, and old adage comes to mind, when 2 tigers fight, one of them dies.
And sometimes, one finds that he was a pussy cat instead of a tiger.


. I have met Martial Artists 30 years my senior that could wipe the floor with me, and that is present time speaking. I am 47 years old.
Hank, a seventy seven year old man can wipe the floor with you??Huh??I don't mean to sound either egotistical or arrogant, but that doesn't say very good things about you. A seventy year old man?? I more than respect my elders, and many of them have plenty of knoledge to pass on, but WIPE THE FLOOR WITH YOU, you have to be playing me. Only in the traditional karate world, in the twentyfirst century, are we still passing on these beliefs that a seventy seven year old man can beat up on a forty seven year old man. I'm sure he would have more than his hands full with a sixty year old man, let alone a forty seven year old. I guess I'm in the "safe" range.

Hank Irwin
19th December 2002, 03:33
When my Sensei first started training with Soken Hohan when he was 72 years old. He was a formidible force and extremelly powerful and accurate. Now, you can't expect a Senior player to participate in a UFC type match, combat situations don't happen like the ring. Kyoshi Gordon Garland is another, 75 years old and can still kick some serious ass, all these guys have to do is touch you, not the magic ki finger either, atemi waza. If you take the players of the UFC,K-1, and ALL the others and tell them the matches are death matches, I wonder how many of them would participate. Not too many, but put a huge "purse" on it and watch how many come. The contact fights I am talking about happened in the late 60's and 70's. Bare knuckle matches got started in Colorado Springs in the early 80's, by mostly Isshin-ryu folks at first. The one's for the public that is, and they started in bars. No pads, no rules practically. Most matches lasted about 14 seconds. The Kyokushin-ryu folks got interested and are the ones that watered the rules and made it what it is today. UFC and all the rest came after. Mannysan, I have been in many matches, probably at least a couple of hundred, not counting the street fights in the Irish Channel and 9th ward of New Orleans when I was coming up. Sport is ammusing, but it ain't the real deal. Sport can be challenging no doubt, and with the advent of the type of events available, a KarateKa can really test his skill. Back when I was coming up they were few and far in between. No real KarateKa wants to take his skill to the streets, it is life or death where I stand. Sport holds no place of interest for me like it used to, when I was much younger, and full of piss ang vinegar. Don't get me wrong, I occasionally have a go at it, but not in the ring. I take what I do very seriously, I play the same way. :D

Goju Man
19th December 2002, 10:42
Hank, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of older karateka that DEFINITLEY earn my respect, and I'm sure can kick some arse, but I'm not subscribing to the death touch at eighty years old deal. Kyokushin watered down? Real fighting in the street is what it is, you may very well be a bad arse in the street, however, for example, a skilled fighter who competes in say kyokushin or seidokan or K-1 gets into it with you in the street with whatever rules you would like to place on it, or none, ain't going to be over in fourteen seconds. Many people always go to the "street syndrome" where the only place they fight and are bad ashes is in the street. Hank, in your dojo or anywhere else you want to train, there is no way to let loose your "lethal" street techniques, and when all else is equal, I'll put my money on the fighter.

If you take the players of the UFC,K-1, and ALL the others and tell them the matches are death matches, I wonder how many of them would participate.
That is a line given out to basically say that the traditional fighters will only fight to the death. These guys won't fight in the ring for some good money, you think they are going to fight to the death? I think not my friend. Steven Segal made an open challenge, and when he got acceptance by known fighters, came up with this to the death crap, and that's basically what it is, crap. If you can hit these "kyoshu" points that easily and at will, you can forget death matches, you can make trillions of dollars in the fight game knocking people out, you'd be in the Guiness book of records, on every talk show on the air from here to Japan to the North Pole. With many of these guys hitting the road doing seminars "for money", big organizations giving out rank "for money", with dojos everywhere charging "money", you think that they wouldn't do it if they could?

Hank Irwin
19th December 2002, 13:06
When Kyokushin first got into Bareknukle they were using limited technique. It actually looked more like Muay Thai than karate. One thing I have learned over the years is it is a lot easier to hit someone than trying to restrain them. And by the way, I am not claiming to be a bad ass, but I have fought a few. I've had my ass kicked real good, hell, have had my nose broken at least 5 times over the years, not to mention the real injuries from constant competition. It has been great so far. What I have learned and what I teach I teach under a code. To watch karate become a cog in the corporate world of entertainment is not where it is intended. World book listings and records are for sportsman and the like. Mr Dillman(for instance) thought he could make money on the secrets he learned from Oyata Sensei. But he only learned a little and as a result is not accurate in his teachings. They only work on the un-suspecting. Oyata Sensei's work on anyone, especially the suspecting. To teach the "hidden" aspects of To-De for commercial gain is not something you do without adverse effects. But who am I right? I am just a lowly deshi, slowly making his way to the end. Keep on trucking Mannysan.

hector gomez
19th December 2002, 13:53
Quote by Mr.Irwin,

WHEN KYOKUSHIN FIRST GOT INTO BAREKNUCKLE THEY WERE USING LIMITED TECHNIQUE.IT ACTUALLY LOOKED MORE LIKE MUAYTHAI THAN KARATE.

Mr.Irwin,This hypothisis or theory has been debated on this forum and in various of other Martial art forums worldwide.

IMO,It has also been scientificaly proven that when you create an atmosphere or training enviorement where two combatants can clash full force with live resistance even with limited techniques,you eventualy create a far superior fighter that is immune to the stresses of physical contact.

This I believe was proven by Jigoro kano over one hundred years ago when his randoried(with non deadly techniques) trained practicioners of judo,were able to defeat the jujistsu (with deadly techniques)trained practicioners in the tokyo police real fights.


IMO ,The Boxer or muaythai practicioner benifits from the same randori theory principle that kano used to defeat jujitsu practicioners eons ago,they practice a form of striking that by eliminating these deadly techniques they are allowed to practice & learn very vital principals of combat that are much more important than knowing were to strike.


Hector Gomez

PS:WOW, I am really starting to sound like a broken record.

CEB
19th December 2002, 14:31
CROBAR!

Sochin
19th December 2002, 15:17
"No, not to the death, to the pain!

- Wesely, aka The Dread Pirate Roberts

hector gomez
19th December 2002, 15:45
Repititive drills is the golden formula for success even when they are boring and repundent.



Hector Gomez

Goju Man
19th December 2002, 22:40
Hanksan, I can say this for you, your tai sabaki is excellent. You are able to dodge questions without really answering them. I don't know if you're coming or going. First you write this:

Kumite is true test of skills. The old style shiais are my favorite. Full-contact, elbows and knees allowed, 30 seconds on ground. This was not done with bogu gear though. You had to be trained hard for least a year to participate in one of these events. Kempo head and hand gear, body gear optional, since it would limit your agility. This was not a novice event either. No strikes to spine or eye gouges or biting were allowed either. Points were taken in the event of a draw, which usually never happened, but point was ko or knock-down. If you got your opponent to tap out in 30 seconds you won the match. Scarey for most sport practitioners even though they will say Na aah!!
I'm interpreting that you admire this type of combat and mention nothing of being inferior to anyone except maybe bogu guys for wearing equipment. When I point out that some nhb fights allow even more than what you are glamourizing, you jump this:
Seito(orthadox) Okinawan To-De is up and close. Maim, rather than cripple, cripple rather than kill, killing being last resort. These are not techniques that can be brought to the sport arena.
Now all of a sudden its sport. If you really feel this way, why dramatise it so much in the first quote? Now you say that kyokushin guys have limited technique, last I checked, they have all the same as other karate styles, or at least Goju and Shotokan, unless you think they are limited as well. Actually Hanksan, if you think hitting is easier than subduing an opponent, how did your nose get broken more than once? Kyokushin and its offshoots like Enshin and Shidokan have the roughest kumite in the KARATE world. Lacking, in Shidokan, there's not only striking but grappling as well. Lacking technique? I don't think any of those 100 guys were skilled in either one of those systems. Maybe they didn't understand the bunkai yet.

MarkF
20th December 2002, 10:02
Perhaps they were lacking in whacking?

Just to clarify a bit concerning the boxers brought up:

Ray Mancini "lost his spirit" before he fought the Korean fighter. He certainly had the "boom boom" as had his father (and is from whom the nick "Boom Boom" came. WWII interrupted Pops chance at a title. He was signed when he was drafted)., but by the time he was attempting to beat the guys on top they had his number and just never got caught with them. It took a referee to stop the fight between Mancini and Bobby Chacon, mainly due to Bobby's age and the punishment he had taken, though he had proven at least one-half dozen times in that fight he was playing possum when Ray forced him against the ropes and was protecting himself well. But what isn't said is that every time Ray tired of trying to beat on Bobby (he dropped his hands and stepped back but Bobby never went down), Bobby would send Ray flying across the ring after every one of Ray's flurries with flurries of his own which pinned Ray to the ropes.

The ref. stopped it.
******

The fight in which Ali said he'd never allow the referee to work any more of his matches was in the press conference after Frazier/Ali II. In the second round, Ali had Frazier one punch from going down or out when suddenly, the referee stepped in to stop it as if he were going to stop the fight. He then looked at the time keeper who motioned that there was still plenty of time (about one minute) left in that round, so the question was asked of him by the press afterward. That round cotinued and the result was an easy decision for Ali. Frazier left the ring muttering "One more time, just one more time..." As everyone knows he got his opportunity but as he was nearly blind at the end of the thirteenth, and was getting hit at will in the fourteenth with the referee that night watching the action closely, but his chief second waved off the fifteenth. Boxing needs more trainers like that. Angelo Dundee did the same for Ali when Larry Holmes, his former sparring partner, was doing the same, and after the tenth round, the ref asked if he (Ali) were all right, and Ali said "yes," but Dundee said "no, the fight's over." The referee said "But he just said he was OK..." Dundee ended things while choking back tears, saying "The Fight's over!! I'm the chief second, god damn it, and I say the fight's over."
*****

Last weekend, Evander Holyfield looked every bit of his age of 40 as he lost a lopsided decision to Chris Byrd. In fact, in the first round, Byrd threw a jab which connected (most of his jabs connected throughout the fight), and there was Evander parrying the jab a full second after it was thrown and rechambered.

Everyone get's old, and the fault goes to gravity. Holyfield said he will continue to box.


Boxing, Thai boxing, MMA, PRIDE, RINGS, the Octogon, no one is ever what they were, just ask my ex-wife.


Mark

MarkF
20th December 2002, 10:14
BTW: The referee in Ali/Fraizer II sued Muhammad Ali after he, Ali, made that commment. The suit was thrown out for a lack of proven or likely to prove damages. I'm thinking the referee was Tony Orlando, but I am not sure (no, not the singer, a referee by that name who is still around today, but I can't remember if it were him or another. The man was Latino, though, for sure). I'll check it out, but anyone here can do the same.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled rant.;)


Mark

kusanku
21st December 2002, 01:49
Okay. Let's clear this whole mess up, once for all.

Mike: Hank's teacher yes, did study with the individuals mentioned.My teacerh studied with Oyata too. Oyata's lineage is not in question except on the e-budo forums, as far as him being an instructor under Shigeru Nakamura, one of the recognized greatest Karate masters on Okinawa. Oyata also studied under and had teaching certificates from Uehara Seikichi, master of Motobu Ryu Udundi, who at an advnced age defeated a boxer and also a Kyokushin fighter on Okinawa using his ancient martial art of the Palace Hand.

Now.Can old people whip young fighters in a ring, with rulkes, if the young fighters are world class?Well, it has happened before, witness Hidy Ochiai, but mostly, no.

Hank is forty-seven, I am fifty, I for one don't want to enter a Pride or UFC tournament. Even if I won, I'd lose. I don't heal as fast as I used to.:-)Who does?

The level of karate being discussed here, is what are called on Okinawa 'Old Man techniques' and what I call Sneaky Pete Waza.Stuff old men learn and use because they need an advantage with young ones.

It exists, and is very high level.

Oyata did give Dillman and some others dan ranks, seventh in his case, and later called them back, Dillman was the only one who didn't send his back.It had to do with starting an org, and was a cross grade from Dillman's American Isshinryu rank I believe.Dillman did not learn much of what Oyata taught, as one can see by perusing Dillman's early kyusho book wherer he names point heart three as heart two, and so forth.:-)That's like calling the lungs the liver.

I had Dillman black belts ask me what point that was, I told them it was the Shaohai point, Heart three, coresponding to the funnybone, and I didn't learn that from Oyata, but from acupuncture books. Oyata's teachings that were pased to me by my Sensei who awas a godan with Oyata for a time, and who was train ed in the Ko Do, which is how Oyata trains those who stay with him today as well, as I am told by some of his students,did not mention acupoints by name, only nerves, like the funny bone etc.

Manny: Tuie is small circle joint locks, prohibited in the UFC, and kyusho jutsu is point strikes, also prohibited there, although on e was used in UFC one by Keith Hackney to KO a sumo, it was Der Vack Mit daw Shotai to dawse Jaw. also known in Diilmanese as Stomach Five point or stomach six point, called one of the 'Buttons' in Boxing.

Are we starting to be clear on this stuff?

Mon Gosh! What we orta do, is invite everyone to a Ginat Weenie Roast where we can all eat, get together, and demonstrate to or one one another, what we are talking about here.

I think we may all be saying the same thing in different terms.

Lets roll this up, shall we?I fought for thirty years, I am tired of fighting.I like martial arts, is is what I do for any kind of training.Steady training.Who'll bring the Ball Park Franks?

I like kata. Bunkai is what the kata techniques mean.Do you ned kata to fight? Of course not! All you ned to fight is an attitude.And we sure all got one of those!:D

But you know what? I like you guys! All you guys!'Cause you're all real.Well, so am we.So, indeed, am we.:D

Hi Mark,Us joudoka, and Hector, you too, got the right idea here.It's all judo, and its all good.Judo also teaches tuite, as kansetsu wasza to wrists and such, and kyusho jutsu, as atermi waza.Do you need these things to be good at judo? Course not! Nor do you ned the ful formal kata. But they make the art, more complete, and they do so with karate as well.

And, yes, if you are going to have shiai, you must limit the waza to be safe or somebody gonna die or get crippled and they can anyway.

But all those who have neever seen Oyata's videos, get one and watch it, please.Otherwise, you post from ignoprance.I watch UFC and Pride matches.Aldso Kyokushin and other stuff, enshin, sabaki, K-!. Good contests.

Okinawan karate, is the parent of Japanese and modern karate.It is real, it is a martial art, and it is not a sport, and it makes a lousy one.It had to be aletered to make a sport and it was.

But what was altered was, entire levels of training were removed, and what was left was the training for Okinawan schoolchildren that most of the world knows as the art of karate.Nothing wrong with it and its powerful.Those Okinawan schoolkids were bad dudes for sure!:D

But the Okinawan grownups, and their arts, were death walking slow.And don't no one fergit it.

dawse Vengel, Mit dawse Shotai.You guys bring der Hot Dogs.Hank and me will grill em.Mark can season them, We are all martial artists on here, all of us have fought, and all done contests.Lets have the mutual respect I know we all would , yes even whoever, if we met.

And I hope I get my Judo Nikkyu for Christmas, I have been waiting a looooong time.Has to be Nikkyu too, not ikkyu, as I think one still neds to learn Nage No Kata for Ikkyu and Katame No Kata for Shodan. And I just hate kata.:-)

kusanku
21st December 2002, 01:58
Originally posted by hector gomez
Repititive drills is the golden formula for success even when they are boring and repundent.



Hector Gomez

Boring and redundant repetitive drills. Like Kata, you mean.:D
Bein an old fighter, and gettin older every day too, I just couldn't resist that one.
Happy Holidays, Hector!You too Manny, Minke, Fernando, and Antonio!:D

Goju Man
21st December 2002, 21:04
Now.Can old people whip young fighters in a ring, with rulkes, if the young fighters are world class?Well, it has happened before, witness Hidy Ochiai, but mostly, no.
With or without rules Johnny, if they can't beat them WITH rules, they sure won't when ALL else is equal. Remember, the young guys have sneaky pete waza also. Now don't go into a short story lecture on how these guys practise sneaky pete waza all the time or how their style is built around them. :rolleyes:

Manny: Tuie is small circle joint locks, prohibited in the UFC, and kyusho jutsu is point strikes, also prohibited there, although on e was used in UFC one by Keith Hackney to KO a sumo, it was Der Vack Mit daw Shotai to dawse Jaw. also known in Diilmanese as Stomach Five point or stomach six point, called one of the 'Buttons' in Boxing.
Prohibited because BOTH combatants would NEEDLESLY by injured and it would not be a decisive technique. None of those guys are going to submit with a finger lock even if it were succesfully applied. Some of these guys fight on with much more serious injuries than that so keep that in you bag brother.
Johnny, the FACT remains that BOTH combatants are on an EQUAL playing feild. The FACT remains that even in the DEADLIEST of dojo, dojang, ring, or anywhere else in the world, (including Victors' driveway) are more techniques allowed than in these types of fights. You and Hanksan were sitting here blowing smoke up each other about these "dangerous" and "not for the novice" kumite in Okinawa, once it is pointed out that IT has MORE rules than say the UFC, now it's the sneaky pete waza and a bunch of other garbage. Are we seeing things a little clearer yet? ;)
Johnnie, this is nothing personal, I like you a lot man. (that'll be five bucks:D ) But the problem traditional karate has is that excuses and lies are being preached that can't be proven. If it were proven not to work, all these big money organizations and leaders would be out of business. BELIEVE me, if ANY of this stuff could be PROVEN, they would have already done so. But as it is, you can't see it, you just have to believe it. John, full contact ballet waza can work on a twelve year old in the street, we're talking about two equal caliber fighters.
Merry Christmas Vengel Clause. I hereby promote you to 1st kyu.:D

Hank Irwin
23rd December 2002, 01:00
The matches I spoke of were 30 odd years ago. What you saw then at bareknuckles watches is much different than it is today. It was traditionally based events. Mixed events were not developed fully except for in dojo. To-De by the way, is an indeginous fighting art from Okinawa not a kumite contest.


By the way, my nose looks just fine, even the wife says so. Hey KusanKu, it's from these types the essence of Okinawan Ti should be kept secret. If they knew, next thing you know we would have some new Soke on their way to seminar heaven... :D




Happy Holidays everyone!!

Goju Man
23rd December 2002, 01:59
Hanksan, wether it was thirty years ago or thirty minutes ago, the point is the same. Where else can you "test" your fighting ability as close to reality as that?

Hey KusanKu, it's from these types the essence of Okinawan Ti should be kept secret. If they knew, next thing you know we would have some new Soke on their way to seminar heaven...
Hank, none of us are in the arts to make money brother, that is elsewhere on this forum INCLUDING you my man. Don't worry about keeping the secret, it's so secret that nobody knows it, including you types.:D I can't comment about your nose though, ask Santa for a new one.:D

Victor
23rd December 2002, 02:30
Hi Manny,

I don't intend to get in the middle of round robin discussions on the whole, but you impuned my driveway and I can't let that pass.

Winter's here, we've already had snow and ice and I just wanted to remind you that any Sunday when it reaches -20 degrees f, you're welcome to visit my tai chi <GRIN>, cause I'll be there.

Hope you enjoy the warmest of Christmas Holidays, cause we're expecting Snow and Sleet according to the latest forecast.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

kusanku
23rd December 2002, 02:45
Manny, thank for the Ikkyu, I care abouyt rank so much as we all know.:D

The Five bucks for the good words are in the mail, I need all the good press I can get so's I can make a great deal of money from the arts.:DLast class I taught for money was teighty three I think.

Hank San, you are right about the matches thirty years ago.I actually may still have pictures from one with some Kung Fu guy biting the dust with a bloody nose and me standing there with the Krusty Knuckle over him.Those were the days, my firned.

Manny, you could be right on all counts. Or maybe, Hank and Robert and me and some others, may know something you don't.

I don't Think I'm as out of touch with reality and you seem to.Since I regularly keep in touch with many fighters and many martiasl artists.Some people who trained me, and soem I trained, are and were bouncers, and I used to help out a bit too.

Okinawan karate Is a proven art by the way, the Japanese, grappling masters that they were, would hardly have wanted to learn karate if it weren't, and if Funakoshi, five feet nothing, hadn't dumped all the Kodokan Godans with what looked like their own throws.Kano sure liked it.

Itosu defeated a Judo master at an advanced age with a punch, Motobu beat a Boxer, and so, I say, it was proven a long time ago.

As for the techniques in dispute: let's clear this up.Kyusho jutsu are strikes to areas and points, nerves, what have you, that can result in fatality.Atemi Jutsu are stunning strikes to limbs, and tuite are finger and wristlocks that may involve the elbow too, and control the whole body, aided by gravity, body mechanics, turning and footwork.

They are a part of old karate, Funakoshi says they are in the Koyohan, names nine torite throws from karate, and says for the rest, as well as jointlocks, refer to basic kata.

In short, this stuff is in the kata.Repetitious practicce of kata creates reflex or almost reflex usage of movements that, when understood, are these techniques, strikes, kicks, pounches, blocks,locks and throws.

They all work as well as one learns to do them.

As for Hank and me, we're just a couple old Ko Do people,students of human thought and movement, and either we are totally unconnected to reality, or we are not communicationg effectively, or we know something youse guys don't.:D

Take your pick.

Just like I told some people on another forum who tried to say I was making this stuff up:Hey, either I am a martial arts person who has learned some things my teachers passed on to me, or I am some kind of genius( for they didn't doubt the efficacy of the waza I described as some had tried them and found them effective-be careful out there, that stuff is real and can hurt you) who made this stuff out of whole cloth, maybe I even learned all I know from books and videos, or perhaps I am a twelve year old or intelligent Labrador who knows no martial arts but am clever enough to fool everyone.Take your pick.

Either way,I wanna Wish You a Merry Christmas...:-)

kusanku
23rd December 2002, 02:47
And Victor my brother,
I wouldn't mind visiting your driveway in the snow and even doing some Taiji form with you, I think I could manage that much, but I'll be goldurned if I am gonna do enny push hands with you guys on ice.:D

Take care and happy holidays and let no one impugn the honor of that driveway.

Bustillo, A.
23rd December 2002, 10:42
Mr. Hank irwin...???


Originally posted by Sagasuhito
Hello Everyone,

Hank, your teacher...He studied with Oyata and Hohan Soken? ... Why train your teacher KO_DO then come to America and train differently?

Regards

Mike Mitchell

And, it appears the only secret around here is the foloowing;

[Originally posted by Mike Mitchell Sept. 02 2002]
Can anyone provide any information as to the legitimacy of Taika Oyatas two other Instuctors? I'm not speaking of Shigeru Nakamura.

Uhugushiku and Wakinaguri are the ones in question. Different martial art historians and high ranking Okinawan Karateka have never heard of them. So I was told
Mike Mitchell

Goju Man
23rd December 2002, 11:35
Victor, Merry Christmas back at ya my man. I would like to visit the driveway, the warm weather down here at this time of year blows.

John, don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm saying karate has never proven itself, but that was a very long time ago. Fighting as a whole as well as society has evolved, and if you follow any of the reality fighting series, you can see how combat has also evolved. Yet, karate is still content with riding the coattails of others, who I believe would be competing today if they were around to "prove" their art the way they did in their time.

Itosu defeated a Judo master at an advanced age with a punch, Motobu beat a Boxer, and so, I say, it was proven a long time ago.
It can be done, however, more often than not, it won't happen like that. But as you pointed out and I have stated also, it was a long time ago. Where are the Itosus' and the Motobus' of today? If we have so much faith in the art, where are those pioneers today? The difference was at that time, they were not affraid to prove their art. And I'll bet you they would make changes if needed. The thing that is different today than then is the big money involved in the organizations.

Hank Irwin
23rd December 2002, 13:05
Mannysan, looks like I might be down your way a little earlier than expected. I will be doing a PGA show in Orlando in the beginning of Feb.As far as I am concerned with any matches, all are good for testing your skills. They only drarwback is what they will allow you to do. I always liked doing kumite from whatever kata I did in pre-lim's. Some tourneys no kata, just kumite. I myself, have NEVER made monies off my students, only my weaponry, and that I sell too cheap. The only reason I teach, is because I love it and what it has done for me and so many. The inner core of UchinaDe is a dangerous place and only for the advanced deshi. Inflamatory remarks about Oyata Sensei and his system(includes students too) will only result in a challenge, this is nothing new. Hidy Sensei went through this from one of his OWN students. What happened? Deshi got clobbered. Lesson for everyone I guess, but such a thing has not taken place in awhile, until now. Hahaha!!:D

CEB
23rd December 2002, 14:22
Originally posted by Goju Man
.....

John, don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm saying karate has never proven itself, but that was a very long time ago. Fighting as a whole as well as society has evolved, and if you follow any of the reality fighting series, you can see how combat has also evolved.
...




Manny, I don't agree with you on how fighting has evolved. I think it has probably devolved if anything over the last 15 years or so. Striking MA used to be popular so even when combatants did not know how to fight you would still see something that resembled some sort of punch or kick. Mostly what I see now on the weekends are shoving and swearing contest with an ocassional hand in the face and then maybe they will roll around on the floor make themselves tired.

The level of fighting in general looks pretty sad around here these days.

hector gomez
23rd December 2002, 15:59
Ed what type of fighting are you referring about?

Tournament fighting?If you are referring to point tournaments?I have no argument with you,now mixed martial arts is a different story.The level of these events have improved dramaticaly,it is not fair to make an assumption on the ufc or pride events,if we have only seen it once or twice since its inception.

Today these type of events are held all over the world from russia and holland to japan and london from south america were vale todo rules still exist with no gloves,to the Usa were the comissions control a little tighter the safety rules in place.

At the begining,these events were entered by regular martial artist that represented their pure style and at the time it was much easier to get into these events than today.10 years later, a pure fighter from a pure style that wants to really make an impression with his system of fighting has to go thru the (minor leagues) ranks before he gets to fight in the big shows.

What usually happens is this, a practicioner might start off as a pure whatever,karate,judo,jiujitsu,wrestling,kickboxing,but as he continues to fight and get experience he comes to the realization that one must be well rounded in all areas in order to be succesful.

If and when these fighters makes it to the big show they have adopted different strategies in order to survive and be succesful.This makes being a pure stylist almost impossible today,even the gracies who I believe were the first and only "victorius" practicioners representing their pure style from the very begining have had to sit up and reivaluate their whole way about fighting in these evetns.Either way,they made most realize the importance of ground grappling world wide.

Strikers have armed themselves with great anti takedown wrestling formulas that have allowed them to keep the fight standing from time to time giving them more of an opportunity in the fight to strike.


But it has taken many years and good sound strategies along with learning wrestling,jiujitsu and ground grappling to make striking work.

Ed,I also came up thru the karate ranks and the boxing ranks so my respect for the striking arts is genuine but in the dojo just as in tournaments no one is really allowed to tackle you to the ground,If that simple realistic part of fighting is allowed in your daily training regimin,I believe one can then honestly make an assesment as to the validity on the pros or cons of striking.




Hector Gomez

CEB
23rd December 2002, 16:04
Originally posted by hector gomez
Ed what type of fighting are you reffering about?
...
Hector Gomez

Friday and Saturday nights in or outside of some of the Mid-Wests more active bars, taverns,night-clubs and honky tonks.

When I refer to fighting I usually refer to street. I'm not addressing MA comparitive systems. I'm primarily a grappler type of guy and I have respect for both. Actually tha last good tussel I saw involved a guy who looked like a pretty good wrestler. It wasn't really a fight. Some guy couldn't handle his booze and wanted to start something and a buddy nelsoned him then totally controlled him and together with another buddy removed him from the establishment. He had good ground technique.

CEB
23rd December 2002, 16:46
Hector,
I guess what I should have said is MA train has evolved but the fighting I see happening amongst drunken and angry people has declined in quality. I guess this is good. That tells me maybe martial artist don't go out and cause trouble. Like you say 'Its all good.' It is. Its good just to get people off the sofa and doing something besides watching TV. It is good for the soul as well as the body.

Merry Christmas.

Antonio,
Thanks a lot for the Christmas card. It was a big surprise. Thank you very much.

hector gomez
23rd December 2002, 16:58
Street fights or street fighter's is a very vague descrption of many different types of definitions.I think these words are used by many martial artist to describe what they percieve to be the real thing.

In actuality,9 times out of ten a well trained martial artist of any style should have an edge against an opponent with no experience making the street fight seem like childs play compared to fighting a highly experienced fighter well conditioned skilled and ready to kick some arse.

I would rather be involved in a street fight with no rules against a regular joe blow that knows nothing about fighting instead of getting involved with a highly trained fighting athlete in a format under supervised rules.


That is not to say there are not some heavy duty Lyle alzados(go raiders)type characters willing to stomp all over us,but by in large I have found street fights to be very easy in some cases compared to training and competing with competent athlete fighters.

Aside from the fact that you can lose your life one day in a real street fight,I find the "majority" of most street fights funny,hilarious,lacking sometimes in true and equal skills from both parties and highly avoidable if desired.


With so many variables of guns and weapons and unavoidable circumstances and skill level of opponents that come into play,street fighting or street fighters IMO is a term used as a cop out sometimes to justify the effectiveness of non fighting skills.


Hector Gomez


PS:Blast away it's christmas and this eggnog taste great.

Bustillo, A.
23rd December 2002, 19:03
Oyata's lineage and Mr. Irwin's now are in question on E-Budo. Again the question that has yet to be answered below? Should I contact Leonard Nimoy and bring back his old show "In Search Of"


Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Mr. Hank irwin...???


[Originally posted by Mike Mitchell Sept. 02 2002]
Can anyone provide any information as to the legitimacy of Taika Oyatas two other Instuctors? I'm not speaking of Shigeru Nakamura.

Uhugushiku and Wakinaguri are the ones in question. Different martial art historians and high ranking Okinawan Karateka have never heard of them. So I was told
Mike Mitchell

CEB
23rd December 2002, 19:22
Originally posted by hector gomez
.....


PS:Blast away it's christmas and this eggnog taste great.

I think we are pretty much in total agreement but our semantics were a little different. I just define the term Ďfightí differently than Manny. I consider myself to have had only two fights in my life as an adult and neither was much a challenge physically. I donít drink when I play music and that provides me with a definite advantage in terms of still having my motor skills intact. My second incident involved a weapon. That was a little scary immediately following the incident but in hindsight the opposition had brought very little to the plate. Dude was lucky that he was enough of a wuss that I was able deal with the situation without sticking the knife up his ***. The beatings (and victories for that matter ) I have had during randori have been much more taxing than any of my street encounters.

Any style or martial art method will prepare people for the bulk of the fights I see happen on weekends. However, I worry about a lot of the karate people I that see at the open tournaments I take my boy to. There is a lot of karate stuff out there that looks like total crap.

Martial art training methods have evolved and become more scientific and better rounded since the 70ís but the typical scuffle I see on the street has declined in quality. I believe this may be because the martial art craze of the 70ís and 80ís is over and the bulk of the population may not have clue as to handle themselves. That was the only point I tried to make.

I donít see why anybody would blast you for what you are saying it makes a lot of sense to me.

hector gomez
23rd December 2002, 19:31
I hope that most of us here at E-budo are not hoodlums and streetfighters because in all honesty these are the only individuals that can truly have streetfight confrontations on a daily or monthly basis,enough to make streetfighting become second nature to them.

The normal civilized person who by the way I hope are the type of individuals I speak with on these forums,are not likely to fight in the streets that often to really gain any valuable experience from it.


Unless you are a police officer,bouncer or bounty hunter getting into a physical street fight is few and far between and if you are getting into streetfights often something is wrong with you understanding the very principles of budo.

So let's please try not to use the copout term streetfighter to defend your point of view on fighting principles unless you are a known hoodlum.


Hector Gomez

hector gomez
23rd December 2002, 19:38
My response was not really directed at you or anyone inparticular just BS baggage I wanted to get off my chest.


Merry christmas

Hector Gomez
PS:I agree about the tournament situation but I cannot respond to this as I have been far removed from that enviorement for a long time.

Goju Man
23rd December 2002, 20:18
Boy, have we been busy today!:D Hank, I look forward to seeing you. PGA? I hope that's golf, we can throw down there!;)
Ed, when I'm speaking of fighting, I'm not talking about street, I'm talking about realistic type fighting with an equal or close to equal adversary. Street fights for any of us, John included (:D ) are pretty much a mismatch. Number one, in a bar, the other guy is usually a mismatch for us with a few exeptions, that being the Tank Abbotts of the world which is a bad situation for anyone. Most street encounters usually don't last more than fifteen or twenty seconds. By then, it is either broken up, or one of the combatants are beaten. Physical conditioning doesn't come into play. We all have had street experience, one of us lately has been working in a local bar down here and has pretty much said the same things. (yes he is one of the SFA) I shouldn't say though that we shouldn't charge for our services though, I've trained in gyms where we paid to train but the operator still probably lost money. But many are. I can say that I have a friend down here who doesn't charge money, and when he has it's been rediculously cheap. He teaches for the love of the art, you know who you are you lerker you.:D (J.F.) The other alliance members also teach for the love of the art. I'm glad we martial artists aren't the hoodlums out there looking for fights.;)

Goju Man
23rd December 2002, 21:06
Here's a guy who gets it. Thanks to our own Kusanku I was turned on to this guy.

interesting link (http://www.uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/champs/Reality1.htm)

Goju Man
23rd December 2002, 21:27
A history lesson for those who have not followed this discussion from its inception. The SFA members have always preached how traditional fighting arts don't "have it all" and have been preaching cross training. Well, thanks to our very own Kusanku aka John Genjumin Vengel aka Vengel Clause, he onced turned us on to a "traditional" karateka who was fighting nhb with just traditional techniques. It was known he was training bjj but the argument went on. Well, please don't tell me he didn't understand the deep dark secrets of his system and had to venture out elsewhere, you were preaching about him before. Now he apperently wants to teach his Uechi people bjj as HE understands the limitations of his style. He didn't have to stop training his style, but found it didn't have "everything" and his kata training didn't seem to be enough. Johnny, he apparently doesn't understand bunkai, he desperatley needs your assistance.:D We've said it for a very long time now, if you venture outside your safe confines, you'll come to the same conclusion. My hats off to Joe Pomfrets.:smilejapa
interesting link (http://www.uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/champs/Reality1.htm)

Tatsu
24th December 2002, 00:00
How long has this thread been up? Seems like months now. I think that everyone has iterated and reiterated and rereiterated their points. We all come from different minds and different perpsectives. Some folks can get by with little and others need a lot. That again is subjective.

Anyway, Oyata is a respected sensei. A lot of Okinawan sensei as they got older, and understood that they had paid their dues but weren't getting paid decided to make "acquiring" rank easier. Yes, there were many reputable sensei who gave away rank to some cats just because they got him lunch, or sponsored his trip/seminar stateside. Still, most of these guys were and are really good. They don't teach karate like they use to teach it oft-times, but THEY still know what's up.

Please, can't we all just get along, hahaha!!! As for bouncers, SpecOps, policia whatever, if you have the threat of deadly force or numbers behind you then you can't compare self-preservation to those scenarios or occupations. Grappling is essential, but striking is first and foremost. That's how I see it. I'm probably wrong though. Later wrasslers and kyokushinguys.....

Goju Man
24th December 2002, 01:08
. Grappling is essential, but striking is first and foremost. That's how I see it. I'm probably wrong though. Later wrasslers and kyokushinguys.....
Brian, actually most of the time when you are a bouncer would rather subdue an attacker rather than bust his face, allthough he may slip and hit the door head first, Sagu has been laying out a lot of arm bars, chokes, and other immobilizations. Even when strikes are delivered first, they are quickly followed by a restraining lock of some kind. (blood, hair, and all:D )
It truly is all good.;)

kusanku
24th December 2002, 02:27
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]

John, don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm saying karate has never proven itself, but that was a very long time ago. Fighting as a whole as well as society has evolved, and if you follow any of the reality fighting series, you can see how combat has also evolved. Yet, karate is still content with riding the coattails of others, who I believe would be competing today if they were around to "prove" their art the way they did in their time.

Actually, a lot depends on rules and situations. For instance, Jon Bluming issued a challenge in realfighting.com a while back, to fight certain people, suprprisingly, from Miami, in Tokyo for 100 thousand dollars.I take it, no one is going to respond to the challenge from the seventy year old man?It seems to be directed to one person in particular and to one organization in general.Yours.

Hey, guys,not taking that one up, that is smart. I sure as Heck wouldn't.But then, I'm just a martial arts student and a teacher, no fighter like some youse guys.One hundred k is a lot of moola, but who could enjoy it after Jon Bluming finished with them?Can't eat too good without teeth.Me, I lost too many already.Besides, I think Jon Bluming is the top guy around.


It can be done, however, more often than not, it won't happen like that. But as you pointed out and I have stated also, it was a long time ago. Where are the Itosus' and the Motobus' of today?

Amsterdam, it seems.


If we have so much faith in the art, where are those pioneers today?

Holland.It sems they might be willing to travel to make their point, if I read that letter right.


The difference was at that time, they were not affraid to prove their art.

At age seventy, Bluming Kancho ain't afraid to, it appears. Or am I misunderstanding something here?


And I'll bet you they would make changes if needed. The thing that is different today than then is the big money involved in the organizations.

It seems the necessary changes have indeed been made.I would like to watch that fight, on the safety of a TV screen.It seems strange that no one mentioned this on here, but someone let dawse cat out of der bag on dis one.Vack mit dawse shotai anyone?

Getting a legend pised off at you is quite an accomplishment. Guess, not being satisdfied with receiving a money fight challenge from Jon Bluming, now its being tried with others posibly as or more dnagerous?Oh boy! I got to make me some popcorn to watch this here denouement.:D Lemonade, too, maybe roast a few weenies, oh, already did that.:D

kusanku
24th December 2002, 02:41
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
Oyata's lineage and Mr. Irwin's now are in question on E-Budo. Again the question that has yet to be answered below? Should I contact Leonard Nimoy and bring back his old show "In Search Of"



Erm-

Antonio-

Perhaps before questioning Irwin Sensei's lineage, which is btw known to me and I don't mention his teacher's name on here out of respect for Irwin Sensei and his Sensei, as I am not authorized to post that name-

But its really not wise rto attempt to mock these people, nor Oyata Taika's, nor mine either at that, though I am the t=peaceful warrior and no fool, even though I now have health insurance I'm not all that eager to invoke its use.:D

But perhaps before questioning Irwin Sensei or Taika Oyata, you might wish to explain how you are letting an opportunity to make one hundred thousand go right by you. All you have to do, it seems, is to take up a challenge from a seventy year old man.

Not that I blame you for one instant for avoiding it.I too, would not go near this challenge from this seventy year old man.No way, I would remain poor and in good health forever.

Anyone wonder what I am talking about?

Go to http://www.realfighting.com/0702/letterart.html for some really interesting reading.

Hank San, you'll love this. You may have to take a number and stand in line, it appears Jon Bluming may have prior claim here.

Ouch.I can not look.

kusanku
24th December 2002, 02:44
I guess I should mention that its the section entitled 'Jon Bluming replies', and that it concerns many things about his former relationship with the SFA, and that also,he has things to say about current MMA stuff that is less than complimentary.

Mon Gosh!

kusanku
24th December 2002, 02:46
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
Manny,

What hair? What Flashlight? What's a Sutemi? I sure hate falling down when I have an armbar on someone! That seems to happen every now and zen. Bryan yes to me striking is primary, grappling is secondary, however in my part time hobby it has to be grappling first and striking only as a last resort.

However every now and then we get a sneaky pete waza in on someone. Oh wait a minute, only the old timers know those.:D


Later boys!

Mike Mitchell

You have no idea.:DAnd that's the way, I think we'll keep it.

kusanku
24th December 2002, 03:09
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]A history lesson for those who have not followed this discussion from its inception. The SFA members have always preached how traditional fighting arts don't "have it all" and have been preaching cross training. Well, thanks to our very own Kusanku aka John Genjumin Vengel aka Vengel Clause, he onced turned us on to a "traditional" karateka who was fighting nhb with just traditional techniques. It was known he was training bjj but the argument went on. Well, please don't tell me he didn't understand the deep dark secrets of his system and had to venture out elsewhere, you were preaching about him before.

Joe Pomfrets is a very tough fighter. But the Uechi people also study Kyusho Jutsu with a very good teacher named Evan Pantazzi, a Dillman guy, who also does many arts.Joe asked him to teach him whatever may help win fights for him.I presume the instruction is ongoing.



Now he apperently wants to teach his Uechi people bjj as HE understands the limitations of his style. He didn't have to stop training his style, but found it didn't have "everything" and his kata training didn't seem to be enough.[quote]

Joe practices the 'new' Uechi style, which Kanei and some senior students of Kanbun formed in the nineteen fifties. The old Uechi Ryu, still taught by a man Named Toyama Seiko in Japan, is a much different, Chinese system, which still teaches what is called the Ko Do by Hank and myself.The new Uechi style has official bunkai some of which, it has been discovered by practitioners, don't make a whole lot of sense.Thus, the style has limitations to be overcome thru training grappling, which btw I urged the Uechi ka to do as well on their forums, and through study of kyusho and other things.

There is a grweat teacher of Uechi Ryu, several actually, one in particular named Van Canna Sensei, a true gentleman, who also uses another approach to teaching Uechi, one that is called TC for Torture Chamber, and his kata are the core of the training, but they are trained 'very' realistically.

Joe Pomfrets and another Uechi man, Gary Khoury, are tow of the toughest fighters of the present generation of Uechi practitioners.van Sensei and some others were of the previous one, a little older than me that is, not too much.

[quote]Johnny, he apparently doesn't understand bunkai, he desperatley needs your assistance.:D

Joe Pomfrets gets help when he sees that he wants it, I have in fact been on there and conversed with him, it isn't bunkai he needed for tournaments, he has that.As far as do I know some things Joe doesn't? Yes, but not that they would be of much use in a ring where rules and situations mitigate against their use.

Thge stuff I do, is about self defense where someone attacks you, not dances around and tries to draw you in, or comes with fighting combinations opr ring strategy.Waza of old Shorin and Kempo Uchinadi, are about taking out an attacker with one to a few moves, as he comes in right on top of you, in your face, because he feels so superior he thinks you can't do anything.Hmm, maybe that would apply to some in the ring, at that.:-)



We've said it for a very long time now, if you venture outside your safe confines, you'll come to the same conclusion. My hats off to Joe Pomfrets.:smilejapa
interesting link (http://www.uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/champs/Reality1.htm)

The arts I studied since 1964:

Jiujitsu, 1964-7.
Judo, 1967-1972, and since then several other periods.
Okinawan Kempo,1972-present
Matsubayashi Ryu Shorin ryu,1972-prersent
Gojukempo Karate,1975-6
Combat Aikido,1973
Boxing and kickboxing, 1973-4
Indonesian Kuontao, 1974-5
Taekwondo,1973, 1978-9
Tai Ji Quan, 1973, 1993-present
Yoshinkan Aikido,last couple years off and on
Aikibudo in 1987
Kobayashi Ryu, trained with them 1979-1993
Shotokan-Shotokai Karate,1973-1993
Heck, I might be forgetting some.Doesn't matter.

And worked as a bouncer and security guard. Always used psychological tactics, worked such that mostly, no need for physical techniques.Except on a small number of occasions,then, as mentioned, no trouble and one move did the job, yes, blocking and grappling and locking.
Mixed martial arts? Old stuff.

kusanku
24th December 2002, 03:15
Originally posted by TOKON
John, All of us are still waiting for his reply? 100K aginst a 70 year old and the match has to be in Japan and promoted by RINGS or PRIDE. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA???? You have got to be kidding me! Obviously you have not seen his famous Seattle seminar tape(March 2002). This would change your mind about your Dutch Buddy.
Osu,

Itdidn't sound like a joke to me.Sounded like an opportunity to make some money and prove yourselves against a seventy year old man, in Japan, under the lights.He mentions you, Fernando I notice. I presume that what he is saying there, is true?

I haven't seen the Seattle tape, except maybe some excerpts on the TV special, I saw him teaching some practical self defense of a type I myself do.

As for my Dutch Buddy, I wish I knew him, he seems like a real good guy, and I am Dutch myself by ancestry, my Grandfather came from there.

Jon Bluming proved it, all he had to.here he is willing to prove it again though.

heck, I don't even have anything to prove, thirty years of it is enough for me.Plus I don't have one huindred grand.But one thing- I am not fool enough to go against Bluming Kancho or any of his world champion MMA students.

And I guess you guys, aren't either, I salute your good sense.:DLooks like none of us, are suicidal.

Hank Irwin
24th December 2002, 03:34
Yeah Mannysan, will be for the pro-golfers tour. I'm supposed to do a surf show down there soon also. They are usually about 12-14 day excursions. I have about 2-3 days off usually during the show, unless I work the show. I'm sure I'll have a couple of days so's I can get up with you guys. One things for sure as far as this debate goes, it has been going on for a very long time. Not just this talk, but for generations. As for my lineage, and Oyata Sensei's, niether one of us has anything to prove. Mr. Mitchell, I hope you live close to Mannysan, would be a shame to be down there and miss meeting you also. :D

Bustillo, A.
24th December 2002, 04:12
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kusanku
[B]
Erm-

Antonio-
But perhaps before questioning Irwin Sensei or Taika Oyata, you might wish to explain how you are letting an opportunity to make one hundred thousand go right by you. All you have to do, it seems, is to take up a challenge from a seventy year old man.


[AB responds]
Kusanku,

Easy. Unlike some people with an IQ under 80 and who would take this ridiculous publicity stunt of Blumings serious, I laughed. This article is close to a year old.

Kusanku, you bring up old news, however, thank you so much for bringing this to light because when we, the SFA guys, try to expose this nonsensical rambling we were either warned, edited, censored, deleted and or the entire post removed. So thank you so much again for reviving this topic which in the past made several E-Budo members feel threatened.

The documentary tape you saw on TV is not the lastest Seattle 2002 seminar tape. I do not mean to be over-critical about someone who is elderly but it is obvious Bluming's mobility is hendered and he can barely demonstrate a basic low line kick. I only mention this to give as an example as to how absurd Bluming is in issuing such a challenge (and for $100,000 dollars...who in their right mind would put up that kind of money for a senior citizan to square off with a modern day neanderthal Cuban like me).

All this has been hashed out and part of this started on the 'Kyokuyama' thread in E-Budo member's lounge. The letter that you mention that Bluming is replying to I never sent a letter to REALFIGHTING.com. They copied that post from the Australian Kyokushin forum and they wanted to make it look like Bluming is so popular and receives so many letters for that poor excuse of an article where Bluming bad mouths several top well known, respected martial artists, T. Nakamura, Shigeru Oyama, Bobby Lowe, Ashihara and so on.

But wait.... don't think he left Oyata out of this. Bluming's comments on Oyata when viewing him do kyusho... he refers to Oyata as... "figures, another Jap fairy".

So, due to Bluming's high opinion of the aforementioned instructors, it seems, Fernamdo and i are in good company.

Hank Irwin
24th December 2002, 04:18
John Sensei, just read the article from Bluming Sensei...verrry interesting, to say the least. I should have a fun time in Fla. hahahaha!!!:D

Bustillo, A.
24th December 2002, 04:38
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
Antonio,

Someone was questioning your first Sensei. What's his lineage and how did you meet him.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell



My instructor..met him during the Cuban Missile crisis era. While I was walking the shoreline of South Beach I spotted an old man sitting under a tree eating a cooconut. I walked over. We talked. He accepted me as a student. Yet, I can say no more because, ya know, lots of covert stuff going on around that time.
So, ssshhh. It's a secret.

kusanku
24th December 2002, 06:11
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
John Sensei, just read the article from Bluming Sensei...verrry interesting, to say the least. I should have a fun time in Fla. hahahaha!!!:D

Hank Sensei-

Yes, you will probably have a good time.Others may have less of one.Would that I could be a fly on the wall.Both my Sensei and yours, and also you and I as well, no doubt have had many such 'conversations ' with those who denied the effectiveness of the Ko Do.

It usually took a very short time for enlightenment to set in, ne?:D

Have fun.Hope no one gets hurt too bad.Take it easy on Mike, he's a young guy.

Antonio-
You mean he really wasn't serious? Listen, for that kind of money, I'd probably fight anyone But one of the world class guys.Long as I could be fairly sure I'd have the abilty to enjoy it left afterwards.
If you're pretty sure you can take 'im, you ought to go.

Anyway, mebbe I'll get me the Seattle tapes, to see for myself.

As for Bluming and Oyata, I doubt the two ever met. Just as none of you ever saw the videos he made on basic kata bunkai.But that, too, is okay.

After all, its all good, right?:-)

kusanku
24th December 2002, 06:29
Enyway, youse guys nuvver asked me, 'Why would a contest judoka, ever want to study karate?'

Well, because there was stuff in karate, emphasized more than in judo, which it could give one an advantage in self defense.

Just as a karateka may wish to study, say, Judo or some other grappling style to supplement they karate.

Or either may wish to study a joint locking style to supplement that area of both arts.

'N' so, I did.

In thirty eight years, I have witnessed and experienced certain arts the superiority of which is evident when tried out.

One such art was Judo.Another such art was Okinawan Kenpo, another Shorin ryu, another Yoshinkan Aikido, and another was Indonesian Kuontao.

William C.C. Ch'ens Taiji, tested by him in all styles combat in Taiwan in the Fifties and he emerged champion one year and second place another.His teacher, the frail appearing Professor Cheng Man-Ching, undefeated in Mainland China, Taiwan and by anyone who tried him in the US,was the best student of the also undefeated Yang, Cheng-Fu, creator of the Yang style of Taiji people say you can't fight with.:DWilliam's son Max is in the MMA competitions now.So what is wrong with this picture?

Gozo Shioda, of Yoshinkan Aikido and possibly Daito Ryu Aikijiujitsu though the latter is not certain,defeated with his deshi, a gang of yakuza, knives and all. This art is used to train the Tokyo Riot Policce, yet people sometimes say it is inefective. it did not feel so, I can tell you that.

Taika Oyata was armor sparring champion of Okinawa, also.

Why would people who do these things be called ineffective?The answer is ignorance.Pure and I mean, simple.:D

Olympic Judo player just made some Gracies eat mat. No surprise, I figured that would happen when one got into it.I have randori'ed with Olympic Judo and Yudo( Korean Judo) players, and let me tell you, though I am no world champ, There wasn't anything anyone could do to stop these folks from executing their waza.Sometimes in slow motion so you could see it and learn better.:D

Of Oyata's lineage there is no question.As to experts on Okinawa telling you the two teachers did not exist because they never heard of them, give me a break.If they were old in 1945, and only taught Oyata and a few others,why would anyone hear of them?

Heck, no one but the judo guys believed I was a legit judo guy until Jeff Beish posted pics of my first Sensei at the Kodokan and with Eiichi Miyazato on Okinawa.

There is actually, or was, a photo of my Sensei and Sempai on the Internet, and some of my Sensei on Okinawa.But I am not gonna post the url because he don't need to be dragged into this and if he was he might kick all our butts for us.:D

Men of Iron did exist. Some still do. I am just one of their humble students.Dawse Peaceful Warrior.Ah,m the Hamburgers in the springgtime. Er, I mean, the flowers,That's right.

Bustillo, A.
24th December 2002, 10:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kusanku
[B]
Antonio-
"You mean he really wasn't serious? Listen, for that kind of money, I'd probably fight anyone..."



[AB]

John,

I would have given you more credit than to think you would read and take such nonsense serious.

Furthermore, you state that, 'for that kind of money' you'd fight anyone. John, is this the same Kusanku critisizing the mixed-martial arts events because of the sport, commercialism and that they fight for 'money' So, it seems, for the right price, it seems your true budo ethics go out the window.


The Seattle seminar tape, good luck rying to get a hold of a copy. There is a reason why it wasn't advertised here and there is a reason why they try to keep it hush-hush pretending it doesn't exist.

If it was such a good tape displaying Bluming's skill or a tape whaere you see Bluming shine as a teacher it would make sense to promote it, or at the very least, not to hide it. However, that is not the case.

Nonetheless, getting back to the original question...
It appears we may need to bring in Robert Stack to answer the 'Unsolved Mystery' of the two instructors in question.

Goju Man
24th December 2002, 12:02
John, you're kidding right? That challenge was issued to "save face" with Buming. Allthough I wasn't involved with that, I did follow it and there are a couple of things that you obviously haven't read. Three members of the SFA went to Blumings' rep down here in "answer" to a challenge. The result is that neither one of the reps(which can be seen in the seminar video along with some other lets say questionable people whos names you would know) was interested in fighting, in fact he called the Police as not to fight. No street fight, a uniform kyokushin rules fight complete with uniform. In fact, I understand they got an opportunity to see a "real" kk belt.

Secondly, no organization in the world will sanction a match with a seventy year old combatant. I know in your little Johnny, seventy year olds are bad ashes but not in reality. For 100k, he would not have a shortage of people to fight.

Thirdly, Hank and I have spoken very coordially on private e-mail and have looked forward to meeting him. Funny, the spin being put on this is as if were a challenge being made. HMMMM. Well let me put that one to rest also. If it were, I'm still equally glad to meet you.

Goju Man
27th December 2002, 01:20
Well, Johnny, what about Pomfret? I thought I read that karate has limitations? I didn't get the part where he said it was "just" for tournaments. Oh well, guess you got sidetracked. Happy Holidays old king of the keyboard.:D Did I read somewhere you were down to three fifty?:D

kusanku
27th December 2002, 05:46
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by kusanku
[B]
Antonio-
"You mean he really wasn't serious? Listen, for that kind of money, I'd probably fight anyone..."



[AB]

John,

I would have given you more credit than to think you would read and take such nonsense serious.

That's why I asked you.Anyway, if it isn't serious, what the heck.


Furthermore, you state that, 'for that kind of money' you'd fight anyone.

Actually, that isn't what I said. I said, for that kind of money, , I'd fight anyone but a world champion If I thought I would retain my ability to enjoy it afterwards. It was a joking comment and rhetorical.


John, is this the same Kusanku critisizing the mixed-martial arts events because of the sport, commercialism and that they fight for 'money' So, it seems, for the right price, it seems your true budo ethics go out the window.

You must have me confused with someone else. I never criticized mixed martial arts event or sports, whether because they are sports or because they compete for money.And at Fifty, I am not about to get in the ring or the dojo with anyone where I might get hurt or they might either.That's why I say I am the peaceful warrior.:DFighting without a reason is stupide, cometing is mainly for the young if they want to.My true budo ethics are and always have been this: Martial sports are for those who want them, martial arts are for those who need them or like them.I practice the arts for health, conditioning and self defense if necessary, and I always hope it won't be necessary.

What got me started on here, was someone coming on claiming kata was a useless practice for actual combat, when the kata werre actually one half of a practice designed for training for actual self defense.The other half was called kumite.They were mostly prearranged two person drills resembling modern kumite not all that much, probably resemble ippon kumite mostly.Kata were the old kihon, and the kumite were the applications, and both were for training people to react in self defense effectively.



The Seattle seminar tape, good luck rying to get a hold of a copy. There is a reason why it wasn't advertised here and there is a reason why they try to keep it hush-hush pretending it doesn't exist.
{

Sounds like Fernando wants to send me one. But I think, if all you guys say its no good, I'll take your word for it.Yes, you heard me right.:D


such a good tape displaying Bluming's skill or a tape whaere you see Bluming shine as a teacher it would make sense to promote it, or at the very least, not to hide it. However, that is not the case.
[quote]

I'll yield the point to you.Give you that one.

[quote] getting back to the original question...
It appears we may need to bring in Robert Stack to answer the 'Unsolved Mystery' of the two instructors in question.

Maybe so, Antonio.Thing is, Taika says he was fifteen, at the end of the War, 1945, and his teachers were in their nineties, and not really open teachers, perhaps the last of old peichin or samurai.There are teachers people don't know or know about.None of us was there in 1945, not Mark Bishop either, so we really don't know.

Who is the guy in the photo, that I also saw in a documentary? I don't know. Taika Oyata says the man in the photo is Uhufushuge no tanmei.

Taika Oyata had teaching certificates from two of the greatest Masters on Okinawa, Nakamura Shigeru and Seikichi Uehara.Why would he need to lie about this?

If someone has been taught and has certificates, and taught for, two of the greatest teachers on Okinawa, I'll take his word for the rest. But, no one else has to.

Perhaps Robert Stack can solve it.

kusanku
27th December 2002, 05:53
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]Well, Johnny, what about Pomfret?

Pomfret's a good man.


I thought I read that karate has limitations?

There's karate today, and there is karate yesterday.PLus, if you know much about Uechi Ryu, you know that it is very good for close in fighting mostly with hands and short kicks, , but against Shotokan it doesn't always fare so well, and has not much if any grappling in its new version. Therefore the limitations. Uechi Ryu is one thing, Shorin ryu is another.


I didn't get the part where he said it was "just" for tournaments.

I didn't say he said that.I said that what I know that he probably doesn't, wouldn't do much good in a tournament so he doesn't need it.I also said he was going to study kyusho jutsu of the Dillman variety with Pantazzi Sensei, I don't know how that worked out.Sensei Pomfret is an open minded man, a good maybe a great fighter, and is willing to learn anything to help him win in the open contests, he said this on the forum.Those were his words.I respect the man.


Oh well, guess you got sidetracked. Happy Holidays old king of the keyboard.:D Did I read somewhere you were down to three fifty?:D

Had to slim down, get my Ikkyu.:D

kusanku
27th December 2002, 06:02
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John, you're kidding right? That challenge was issued to "save face" with Buming. Allthough I wasn't involved with that, I did follow it and there are a couple of things that you obviously haven't read. Three members of the SFA went to Blumings' rep down here in "answer" to a challenge. The result is that neither one of the reps(which can be seen in the seminar video along with some other lets say questionable people whos names you would know) was interested in fighting, in fact he called the Police as not to fight. No street fight, a uniform kyokushin rules fight complete with uniform. In fact, I understand they got an opportunity to see a "real" kk belt.

Secondly, no organization in the world will sanction a match with a seventy year old combatant. I know in your little Johnny, seventy year olds are bad ashes but not in reality. For 100k, he would not have a shortage of people to fight.

If you say so, I'll take your word for it.


Thirdly, Hank and I have spoken very coordially on private e-mail and have looked forward to meeting him. Funny, the spin being put on this is as if were a challenge being made. HMMMM. Well let me put that one to rest also.

I'm not spinning anything, I hoped , as I said, no one got hurt.I do know some of the olden people and I remember fighting a few challenge matches,maybe that was in my dreams though?I am glad it isn't going to be that way.



If it were, I'm still equally glad to meet you.

I'd be hapy to meet any of you, but not for death kumite.:DMore like a slice of Pizza and a Hamburger, maybe some diet cola.I am dawse peaceful warrior, always said so.Martial arts is, to me, not for fighting for real, other martial artists, despite the fact that I have been whipped upon by some of the world's best ones during training.:DI would be happy to demonstrate the techniques I speak of, in a way that would cause no harm or injury to others, and would hope that others would demo theirs in a way, so as not to attempt harm, to mon self.That is what I would hope, being, like yourself, civilized.

Martial arts is for health, development, and self defense against such as cannot discern the difference between man and animal.

Now sports, that's okay for those who want them, but sports have rules and reality, doesn't.

Take care, and have fun with Hank Sensei.I wonder if your perpective will change after the exchange of different views?

kusanku
27th December 2002, 06:07
Originally posted by TOKON
John, Do you want the tapes? My friend is feeling generous this holiday season. He will ship them to you for free. He also tells me he will give the tapes to anyone on E-BUDO. The only catch is anyone else would have to pay for the shippping($5.00). For you, they are totally free. What do you say John?
Osu,

Thanks, Fernando, but no.I am at least, wise enough to know you wouldn't want me to see them if they were any good. I guess we all get older and weaker, after time, or most of us do anyway.:D

'Preciate the offer however.

kusanku
27th December 2002, 06:22
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
[B]John,


You are correct I have NO Idea about anything!

Didn't say that, Mike, and don't believe it either.What I said was you don't have one about certain aspects of the original Okinawan Karate training, and I could tell that from comments you made about understanding kyusho jutsu more from what you didn't say than from what you did.'Course, I could be wrong.

I am quite sure that in your three years of training, you have become a very good fighter and tough opponent. Youth and skill make a good combination.

I'm also sure that, in my thirty-eight years of training, it is extremely likey that I learned some things you have yet to.



One thing I do know is I have a copy of Jon Blumings seminar tape and they suck

I'll take you guy's word for this one. I thought the excerpts I saw were from that tape, and they looked all right. Since I now find out they are not,that's fine.



and the rep down here had his dojo bathroom redecorated by me.

Sounds mighty nice of you.:-)



He also called the Police when I went to his Dojo with Gi in hand and accepted a challenge he issued over the internet to me.

Must have been in fear of his life and safety. I said you are probably a scary guy. One young feller I know and helped train, is also a bouncer up here, he put a few College Football players into a wall with his Pa Kua and what not.Some you young fellers don't know your own strength.I've also, when younger, answered a few challenges, gi in hand, never had but a few meet them. I must of scared them, too.Oh, well.Sometimes people's moths write chacks their bodies can't cash. Human nature.

At fifty, I rarely issue challenges. Then it would be to a hamburger eating contest. Bet I'd win.:D But, you never know, some these young fellers have great capacity to put away the vittles as well.


Hank,

Orlando? Are you challenging me to a fight or would you like to keiko? Please be specific as I'm a litle slow here. Manny tells me you guys have e-mailed off e-budo, you haven't with me, so I'd like to know what you mean?

Accroding to Manny Hank Sensei means a get together to keiko and exchange viewpoints. I am glad that is what it is. Martial arts are a dangerous thing.We must all be very cautious and careful even in practice.

Over the years, having made some early mistakes with over training and such, one notices the cumulative results of such small at the time mistakes. It is best to train moderately, and excercise caution in all practice with partners, as small injuries can either become bigger later, or merely pile up on one over the decades.

I do remember in mon younger days, we were an enthusiastic lot, and often, things got a litle out of hand, but as one gets older, one hopefully, gets wiser. If one can gain such wisdom when young, how good that is.MY first Sensei, Preston Pugh, of Judo and Shorin Ryu, told me when I was fifteen:'The more you know about fighting, the more you know about what can go wrong.'

This advice probably saved me even more pain and injuries than I ever had.

Take care, and have fun-

Bustillo, A.
27th December 2002, 10:47
Folks,

Re. the Bluming Seattle Seminar Video tape.

I am not the one with the tape, nor did I offer to mail it.
Contact TOKON, his 'private message' feature (PM)is activated.
For those who sent me private emails reqiesting the tape , i forwarded your address to him.

Any further request, contact TOKON
Thank you.

kusanku
27th December 2002, 11:11
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
John,:D


That was a JOKE I posted about only training 3 years and being 21 yrs old! I've probably been on E-Budo over 3 yrs as I was here before the crash.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Haw!:D That's a good one on me, Wondered how you got a Black Belt in only three, thought maybe you were a child Prodigy.:-)

Still bet I could win a Hamburger eating competition, full contact, of course, with the burgers.:D Have to take a year to train up for it, though.

regulation burgers, three quarters of a pound uncooked weight.

Seasonings optional.

Bogu Burgers, traditional Okinawan fare, soy sauce always included, other stuff you can take or leave.Time limit six minutes per burger-wouldn't want any one getting indigestion, now.

Time limit per competition, two hours.Separate the men from the wimps for sure.:D

My record was twelve in two, at age twenty-four.

kusanku
27th December 2002, 11:16
For best results, Kobe beef or Black Angus ground steak grilled on a Hibachi.Bread or bun of choice, including whole wheat , white, potato and multi-grain.

Iron Chefs would have to ref.

Anyone got Chairman Kaga's e-mail?

Goju Man
27th December 2002, 22:52
Yep, if you look at any karate, or other martial art, they all have their limitations, yes including muay thai. My point was about cross training to well round yourself. Trying to get that outa you is pulling teeth!:D

If you say so, I'll take your word for it.
John, you don't have to take MY word for it, common sense will tell you that no one will sanction a seventy year old for just about anything, much less a full contact sport, with all the lawsuits these days, do you even begin to realise the legal implications? If he wanted someones arse bad enough, he wouldn't need a ring or promotor to do it.

I'm not spinning anything, I hoped , as I said, no one got hurt.I do know some of the olden people and I remember fighting a few challenge matches,maybe that was in my dreams though?I am glad it isn't going to be that way.
I don't know, it just started looking that way. Actually, I was the last it. Like I said, we corresponded and though him a nice guy.

I'd be hapy to meet any of you, but not for death kumite.More like a slice of Pizza and a Hamburger, maybe some diet cola.
A diet cola with that? :D Oh, I forgot, you're watching your weight. I'll have a beer instead.
BTW, you really should check out that video. Make up your own mind.

kusanku
28th December 2002, 12:42
Originally posted by TOKON
John are you sure you don't want the tapes. Please do not take our word for it. View it for yourself, so there will be no doubt in your mind.
Happy Holidays to you Sir.

P.S. My friend would be more than happy to send it to you.

Actually, though, I DO take your word on it.You couldn't be wrong, you couldn't be misstating the truth as is said today.If the stuff was any good, it would be evident.That's good enough for me.

In fact, tell you the truth, if I were a young or older martial artists, who did not know what I do know, I would take you guys' word for everything. I know that you guys believe what you say.

Its just that I have seen Oyata tapes that show him doing things very few can do, and my teacher did some to me, and I learned to do a little too, from my teacher and then from some other sources.

HGowever, these things are not such as one can do in tournament, because in a tournament, two trained fighters are sparring, danciong, distancing, not necessarily coming straight in on you.In a real attack from a predator, you may be 'stalked,' you may be 'interviewed', but twhen the attack comes, it comes straight in from in frront, the sides or behind, because the predator has decided he or they can take you with no danger to themselves.

Tournament fighters ain't that stupid.:D

Yet the kata techniques taught by Taika Oyata, and the high level Taiji and Aiki waza others teach, are against the attacker mentality, coming straight in at you with no regard to their own defense,because they don't think they need one. That's the old karate of Okinawa.

A man from Hong Kong told me when I was a teenager, did you ever notice that someone is most open when they attack?

This is what all this is really about. You guys proclaiming the ultimate combat reality of MMA sport fights, some of the rest of us saying, sport fighting is fine, but reality in self defense is a different deal, not needing all the stuff sport fighters must go through.

So let's cut to the chase, and make a New Year's resolution to agree to disagree.

kusanku
28th December 2002, 12:48
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]Yep, if you look at any karate, or other martial art, they all have their limitations, yes including muay thai. My point was about cross training to well round yourself. Trying to get that outa you is pulling teeth!:D


Did I not post, on this thread, all the arts I trained in?What was that? Chorpped liver?:D

A diet cola with that? :D Oh, I forgot, you're watching your weight. I'll have a beer instead.[/quote]

I don't drink. Alcohol destroys the mind and consumes the nerves.But hey, whatever floats yer boat.I'll go as far as having a regular Cola, never liked the diet stuff's flavor.


BTW, you really should check out that video. Make up your own mind.

Already have. Waza must be no good on there. But hey, at seventy, what the heck. Like Bluming really has anything to prove. At Fifty, I don't even.I proved what had to be proved back when.

So, like I say, agree to disagree.But I take your word on the tape.Tell you what- I don't have one, but you get an Oyata tape from Mike at ryushu.com and honestly tell me what you think of it, and I'll watch the Seatlle one and do the same.

Maybe we'll both be amused, hah?:D

Goju Man
28th December 2002, 14:00
I don't drink. Alcohol destroys the mind and consumes the nerves.But hey, whatever floats yer boat.I'll go as far as having a regular Cola, never liked the diet stuff's flavor

Haven't you ever gone to Treasure Island and, er, ahem, woops, not the right place for that story.:eek:

Already have. Waza must be no good on there. But hey, at seventy, what the heck. Like Bluming really has anything to prove. At Fifty, I don't even.I proved what had to be proved back when.

John, I personally didn't say Bluming had anything to prove. I personally respect what the man has done.

kusanku
29th December 2002, 04:19
Originally posted by Goju Man


John, I personally didn't say Bluming had anything to prove. I personally respect what the man has done.

I do too.As for Treasure Island, Ah Ha!:D Actually, during mon Youth -wait a minute, you're right, this ain't the time or place fior such reminiscences!

Ennyway, during ones youth, wisdom ain't a quality may displkay in great profusion.:D

A shame, too.

Kimura
29th December 2002, 06:04
Patend no#245978

I have been recently working on a new project called "PPSP"(Pressure point safety pads)These devices are the result of years of trial and error in the field of fullcontact pressure point training & fighting.

The way it works is simple,each participant is protected with pads that protect all vital areas including eyes,throat,groin,etc these special pads are electronicaly hooked up to a sensor(similar to fencing)once a sufficeint amount of pressure is applied to any vital padded area, the red lights are activated siginfying that a deadly strike has been administered.


This new revolutionary breakthrough will allow all pressure point practicioners to practice & train in their art thru a sport format
eliminating the would off could off should off syndrome.


National championships are scheduled for the summer of 2003 with the first world full contact pressure point fighting championships following in the fall of 2003.


Hector Gomez

PS:2002 is the last year of excuses.


lololololololololololololololololololololol.