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O'Neill
4th September 2002, 07:24
I witnessed some great footage of Kiraku ryu (not commercial)
and they seem to have an amazing curriculum. Their jujutsu waza seem to be very aiki like. The headmaster has great skill in kuzushi.
I noticed that kiraku ryu and asayama ichiden ryu have quite a large
repetoire of techniques. Anyone involved with Kiraku ryu?

Erin O'Neill

pboylan
4th September 2002, 18:53
Not to open a can of worms, but what does it mean to be "aiki like?"

Peter Boylan

Jitsutaro
4th September 2002, 23:07
Kiraki ryu is not Aiki like (what ever that means) :D
Kiraki ryu IMHO does not resemble Aikido or Aikijujutsu.
The person who started this thread is "GREEN".

I feel there are better JJ styles out there then Kiraki ryu
although I am not saying they are bad, just that there are
better ones.

Good luck.


Michael Kelly
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CKohalyk
5th September 2002, 01:19
On a basic level ALL MA (including, in a recent discovery, BJJ) are "Aiki-like," (Aikido & Daito Ryu simply prioritize the aiki factor) but Kiraku-ryu actually has kata to nurture aiki-like techniques. There is one kata resembling Aiki-age (for the DR boys out there, not familiar with the Aikido term) and various others which show a lot of circularity. Although, I wouldn't say they prioritize aiki too much. Most of the (JJ) techniques consist of grabbing a joint, and then twisting/rolling/displacing one's body to dislocate/wrend said joint.

Micheal Kelly, who did you study Kiraku-Ryu with?


CK

O'Neill
5th September 2002, 02:50
I am green, that's cool- but I always seem to find myself more of a black and blue shade after class. I am just saying that the kata that I viewed seemed more aiki like. I wasn't judging the whole art. I have only been studying for about 10 yrs (a small amount of time) but I know others who started after me that are now 4th or 5th dan.

I have spoken with others more experienced within the koryu community that agreed that certain kata were very aiki like- I was just pointing out my thoughts. Thanks for your input.

Erin O'Neill

O'Neill
5th September 2002, 02:56
What I meant was kuzushi upon contact. Sorry if I ruffled the wig of Mr. Kelly. You seem to have taken my post badly, as you called it a joke. I merely asked a question.Their kata seemed to have some elements that I have seen in aikijujutsu, that is what I meant. I guess that I'll just read the posts here and wait for the true experts to enlighten us. Thank you.

Erin "green" O'Neill

O'Neill
5th September 2002, 03:01
Thank you for your response, that was what I was looking for.
Take care.

Erin O'Neill

Jitsutaro
5th September 2002, 04:44
Because the question is in reverse.

Aiki does not mean circular movement for those interested.
A lot of Jujutsu ryuha have circular movement. The question
does not make sense for that purpose. I think you will
need to CLEARLY DEFINE what you mean by AIKI to get an appropriate answer.

Regards

Michael Kelly
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Benjamin Peters
5th September 2002, 05:34
Hi there, do you know which lineage you saw? was it Kanra Kiraku Ryu
or Isezaki Kiraku Ryu?

I personally think that Kiraku Ryu is different to aiki stuff.

O'Neill
5th September 2002, 12:06
I am not sure which lineage it was, I will inquire. I realize that jujutsu styles are circular, that is the art that I study, after a few years of aikido. What are the technical differences between the two schools of Kiraku ryu ? As CK had stated there were a few things (just a few) things that reminded me of aikijujutsu. Are there any books available on this ryu (in japanese)?

Erin O'Neill

CKohalyk
6th September 2002, 02:00
Originally posted by Jitsutaro

A lot of Jujutsu ryuha have circular movement... I think you will
need to CLEARLY DEFINE what you mean by AIKI to get an appropriate answer.
-------------

Okay, I agree to moving off of the circular movement thing. I think it would be too hard to discuss in words.

Erin is asking specifically about kuzushi on contact. Once again, in my opinion this is an underlying characteristic of all MA. Can you think of anything alse?

I still believe K-Ryu is closer to Aiki-related arts than some of the other koryu I have experienced. (but just in a few aspects)

Benjamin, I had heard that the Kanra group had dwindled down to pretty much only the aged headmaster. What's the latest on them?

Jitsutaro
6th September 2002, 05:54
Hey nice comments but AIKI still needs to be defined

The problem is AIKI is a philosophy behind the movement.
I think it best to get an Aikido-ka to explain that as they have the
inside edge.

I have seen Kiraki ryu (a derivative of Toda Ryu remember) in Meiji Jingu and video and couldn't see anything aiki about it.

Remember - Perception is reality ;)

There are a lot Jujutsu ryu-ha that are very different in nature.

I am not dissin' the style but until you can explain what you mean
it is a waste of a forum. ** no offence meant **

Michael Kelly
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Benjamin Peters
6th September 2002, 06:34
Benjamin, I had heard that the Kanra group had dwindled down to pretty much only the aged headmaster. What's the latest on them?

Apologies, I was just making a point of interest that separate lineages (may) exist and differences can occur. I've only seen commercial stuff so my opinions are based on that.


pretty much only the aged headmaster

he's probably like Yoda or something :toast:

CKohalyk
6th September 2002, 08:01
Ben,

Good point about differences in lineages. Kanra-den is the only one of the 3 K-Ryu lineages that I haven't seen or experienced myself. Also, referring to Jitsutaro's "inside edge" comment, as a 2 dan Daito Ryu practitioner going into Kiraku Ryu (kirigami license), I felt similarities that I didn't feel while doing Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu etc. Hence the reason why I can emphasize with what Erin is saying.

But it is all so hard to explain in words!;)

Good luck,

CK

O'Neill
6th September 2002, 16:09
That was the best that I could hope for, a practitioner of daito ryu and kiraku ryu responding. I was hoping to hear from someone from within kiraku ryu but I didn't think that I'd find one. Your posts have made a difference. As far as aikidoka having some aiki edge, I'd stick to the daito ryu as I was talking about aiki technique not philosophy. The example of aiki age was on the right path, that was what I had noticed. I also saw something that resembled an aikijujutsu technique called "touin".
Those two examples were what prompted me to inquire as to aiki "techniques" being a part of the curriculum of kiraku ryu.
Have a good one!

Erin O'Neill

O'Neill
6th September 2002, 16:15
Jitsutaro,

Maybe I should have made myself clearer in the beginning, I was referring to aiki waza- not the philosophy. Maybe that helped with the confusion, I am more interested in the techniques of aiki as I had much of the aiki philosophy thrown at me during my aikido days.
Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

Brently Keen
16th September 2002, 02:55
I'm glad you made the distinction between aiki-waza and aiki philosophy, Erin. Saved me from having to launch into yet another of my infamous aiki distinctions posts!

Peter, you are dangerously close to opening a can of worms - better to go to an authentic aikijujutsu school to find out personally what is "aiki-like". It's so futile to try and explain on these boards.

Erin, if the kuzushi upon contact you witnessed in Kiraku-ryu is what strikes you as being similar to aikijujutsu, then yes they may be similar in that respect, but that does not (imo) define "aiki-like".

Yes, a characteristic of Daito-ryu (both jujutsu and aikijujutsu) is off-balancing at the moment of contact. But don't confuse all of Daito-ryu or just one of it's characteristics with what constitutes aiki.

In my mind, instant kuzushi is characteristic of all good jujutsu. I would say that kuzushi is (or at least should be) a defining characteristic of jujutsu, or at least a prerequisite for efficiently and effectively employing jujutsu techniques. I would also say that it's a given that nearly all combative techniques will be significantly improved, and made more difficult to counter if kuzushi is first applied. So I'm in agreement with CKohalyk. Just curious though, which branch of Daito-ryu did you train in? And would you care to expand on what other similarities you found?

Among all the styles of jujutsu (and other martial arts) there are I'm sure you all know many different ways to accomplish kuzushi. In Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, specific aiki waza are used to accomplish the kuzushi at the moment of contact either in combination with, or in lieu of more typical (jujutsu) methods among other things. Especially in upper-level Daito-ryu, you'll see that aiki waza are used much more to accomplish instant kuzushi (hence why it's called aikijujutsu), but in Daito-ryu jujutsu, as in other styles of jujutsu, other techniques and methods are used to obtain kuzushi. Some are more instant, and some are not so instant - but the way they go about accomplishing the kuzushi is (imo) very different, even if it appears similar from outside observation. Perception is definitely not always the same as reality.

I'm not sure whether or not I've seen the same video footage you're referring to, but having seen at least one branch of Kiraku-ryu demostrated in Japan as well as some video clips, I would say the Kiraku-ryu headmaster and the waza were simply showing some great jujutsu that was more "jujutsu-like" than "aiki-like". What made it good is probably like you said, the headmaster's ability to apply kuzushi right away. That seems to me to demonstrate good skills - but not necessarily "aiki-likeness".

As for certain kata looking like aiki techniques I don't recall any from what I'd seen - I'm not totally dismissing that their might be though. The Russian Systema has some very aiki-like stuff happening. One thing to keep in mind is the influence that Daito-ryu and aikido both have had on other arts - among Sokaku's 30,000 students were many who belonged to other schools even some highly ranked instructors, and the same can be said for Ueshiba. Just as many koryu jujutsu schools became judo schools and/or incorporated judo techniques and concepts into their curriculums, and koryu-kenjutsu schools adopted the practice of kendo and iaido, the popularity of aikido and Daito-ryu (to a lesser extent) has likewise had an influence on many older schools (imo) whether they'll admit it or not.

OTOH, some koryu have also arrived at high level techniques that may resemble aiki-techniques in some respects, but have done so apparently independently - for example Kashima Shin-ryu and Shishin Takuma-ryu, and several generations back Kito-ryu likewise had some "aiki-like" techniques (although they don't seem to have them anymore). Still I'm sure that those with more extensive experience in those styles can point to more distinctions, they are like CKohalyk pointed out with Kiraku-ryu, "closer" to aiki-related styles than many other koryu are.

Brently Keen

MarkF
16th September 2002, 12:13
Originally posted by Brently Keen
I'm glad you made the distinction between aiki-waza and aiki philosophy, Erin. Saved me from having to launch into yet another of my infamous aiki distinctions posts!


Well, Brently, it may not have been (one of your) your infamous aiki distinction posts, but you're still the champ.:p


Mark

Brently Keen
16th September 2002, 21:10
Thanks Mark, but I've been mistaken for a chump from time to time as well. ;)

Brently Keen