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John Lindsey
4th September 2002, 21:07
The fine art of cheating in Gendai budo sporting events

Many years ago I was chatting with a moderately ranked judoka who had seen many years of competition. He made the comment that to say there are no striking techniques during randori is not always correct. He said that strikes with the hands, elbows, feet etc do occur, but are often concealed in the throw, but not always intentionally.

With all sporting events governed by rules, the allure of winning can often give way to cheating. Be it the use of steroids or sneaking in an elbow slam during a seoi nage. I would be interested in hearing any stories of such bending of the rules. While I don’t condone such actions, I think the subject is worthy of discussion.

Chuck Clark
5th September 2002, 04:51
I can remember certain folks that used unique "kuzushi" for osotogari, kouchigari, taiotoshi that contained a fist to the ear or chin. If you were counting the stars in your dimming vision on the way down it was okay as long as the guy had a bit of your uwagi in his hand at the time of the atemi.

Along with these examples, there was the old elbow in the suigetsu at the moment of impact during many makikomi techniques. If any newaza was necessary, it made it a bit easier that the other guy couldn't breath.

Regards,

PeteBoyes
5th September 2002, 08:49
A swift kick to the shin/knee in the first moments of a contest give the opponent something to think about, it's usually disguised as a Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi or a Hiza Guruma.

When the opponent is in a defensive position on the ground and you are attempting a strangle from behind a smack on the nose will usually get them to lift their chin.

Not that I'd ever advocate such despicable tactics, but you have to be aware of what others might do.

MarkF
5th September 2002, 10:45
I had versions of those mentioned above (especially Chucky's moves), but the kick to the leg/shin is sometimes used as an "initiation" move to newbies at many particular dojo (so I've heard:), but in shiai, you had better make sure it was a dedicated attempt at a throw. But it does happen and it can hurt, too.

In that choke position, I didn't actually *punch* or hit the nose, but a fore arm under the nose with a quick lift, then the sode guruma or whatever, made a concience choice of dipping the chin a little late.

I know what Chuck means, but I just couldn't actually hit that hard, but some pressure in the solar plexus was my mild version of same. There were tricks for escaping osaikomi which worked pretty well, too, but I tried as hard as possible not to be on the ground, especially when shiai was a rank-only separation. Sometimes, I'd get these uhhh, well "monsters (Over 180 pounds and I was fishmeat if I wasn't careful)."

I had a few for making sure they'd be under my pin for, ohh, say, thirty seconds? I've had that elbow slam down on me, though, I can affirm that breathing was of primary order of the day.

There was "blinding with the dogi" when entering for a lot of throws along with a punch with tai otoshi, or with tsurikomi style throws. Taking the lapel of the uwagi low, coming up and across with the hand momentarily blinding uke and even sneeking the punch in had been relatively common, if you were willing to chance it, anyway. From the confusion, a lot of throws were open to tori if tori hasn't committed yet. In fact, "kuzushi" putting uke on his heels back or to the side still left the opportunity for seoinage. Instead of entering for the front variant, stepping across and throwing uke to the side he is showing would work as well as continuing in for o soto gari or o guruma.

I understand that they take a dim view of blinding (with the uwagi), especially when you telegraph it by pulling the lapel right out of his belt at first grip, but then, gripping at all isn't all that popular with some these days.:)


Mark




Mark

Chuck Clark
5th September 2002, 15:34
I used to bandage an ankle or wrist, etc. to get guys to "go for it" on purpose. Just a little bit of an ambush dontcha know...

I had a particularly good lesson for idiots that kicked me in the shin. If you pick your foot just off the ground and let your knee bend just right...the result is that the guy just nailed himself in the knee area with the pointy part of your knee. Hurts like the devil! Needless to say, just as this happens you pick up that leg with your hand and often can make a really "nice" ouchigari with a bit of makikomi added.

OHHH, this is fun...brings back lots of memories. :D

Regards,

Joseph Svinth
6th September 2002, 01:01
Rule #1. It's only cheating if you get caught.

Rule #2. If the referee doesn't call it, it's legal.

Rule #3. Just because the referee says you can't do it doesn't mean that he minds if your opponent does it. This is especially true if the referee is from the same team as the opponent.

MarkF
6th September 2002, 11:45
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
I used to bandage an ankle or wrist, etc. to get guys to "go for it" on purpose. Just a little bit of an ambush dontcha know...

I had a particularly good lesson for idiots that kicked me in the shin. If you pick your foot just off the ground and let your knee bend just right...the result is that the guy just nailed himself in the knee area with the pointy part of your knee. Hurts like the devil! Needless to say, just as this happens you pick up that leg with your hand and often can make a really "nice" ouchigari with a bit of makikomi added.

OHHH, this is fun...brings back lots of memories. :D

Regards,

I did the same as a kid, but for real. I had a cast removed from my leg/ankle/foot about three weeks before the tournament, and when I was lined up, the "old guy" took me aside and said I couldn't wear the Ace bandage due to the clips on it. I asked if I could still use it if I tied it or placed the ends on the inside, and was refused due to the chance of it becoming untied (He didn't mention doing it on purpose but I still had a moderate to severe limp). I looked for something else in my bag (always come prepared for any situation, I always say), and came up with a one piece support. He allowed me to wear that, but did enquire as to the condition of my ankle).

I don't know whether that helped of not but I had eight wins by Ippon (one by waza-ari awaza-te Ippon) and a draw that day, and I did limp a lot. The draw was purposeful because I was so winded.

I wore that support for at least four or five more shiai, though eventually I grew out of it. In my next tournament, I was thrown through the floor in my first and only match.

Throw in the limp, Chuck, and you could probably beat those godan, those big Koreans with giant torsos and legs about six inches from the mat to the knee. Never mind the tai otoshi, they just "chicken beak" the leg. OOo, I forgot about that one. ;)


Mark

Budoka 34
6th September 2002, 12:23
Forgive me if I've told this one before.
Last year at a karate tournament I had a guy blast me in the face, HARD (I know keep your hands up!). No penalty,just points! He did a great job of tieing me up then BLAM right in the face again. This one staggers me! Still no penalty! Well I'm kind of a head hunter anyway so I give what I got!:D
I went in with my hands high, he kicked, I caught it and swept him. The only thing open was his head so I took the shot.:rolleyes:
Instant penalty! We had several more exchanges like that. He only threw head shots the whole time and I recieved penalties for each punch I landed from that point on. I've watched the tape a hundred times I was as calm as could be. The guy won by penalty. As he walked off deck he walked up to the center ref and said "Thanks Sensei that was fun"!!!!!

The center ref and two of the three judges were from his school!

Tournament fees-------$75

100+ hours of training for tournament-----$800+

Winning your first match hands down-------Priceless

:smilejapa

47th ronin
8th September 2002, 20:54
Sometimes, I'm told if you strategically jam your thumb into the other guys neck as you prepare for Osoto Gari(right hand on lapel, right thumb jammed into neck), it can "assist" the kuzushi before you sweep him.

Harry Cook
8th September 2002, 22:41
I have seen some karateka fall down from a light touch to the face which may have grazed their lip, smear the blood over their face and put on a glazed look when they manfully struggle to their feet. An inexperienced referee will assume that the punch was uncontrolled and penalise or disqualify their opponent.
On the positive side I once saw a Scottish instructor expell one of his dan grades from his dojo for doing this kind of thing in a tournament, explaining that while the young man may have won the match he was an embarrasment to the dojo and the teacher and he wanted nothing more to do with him!
Yours,
Harry Cook

Judokax8
9th September 2002, 01:59
The kind of things you guys are talking about are what turns a match from a test of skill in a test of survival. Years ago when the refs let you fight, 5 minutes of randori could be 5 minutes of war. "foot Sweep" of "kick" , hard Koshi Guruma return, did I hit you in the head, Sorry!. Pick the mother up in Ushiro and slam him into next week. What, I lost on a penalty, really ref it was just an accident!!

Dennis

DustyMars
9th September 2002, 14:41
After reading the posts in this thread I have to laugh. In my days we did not consider any of the things discussed here as cheating. For example, ouchi gari was always accompanied by a little jaw "kusushi." Uchimata was always done with the help of a little ear grip, and so on. No one ever told us Judo shiai was for nice guys. Yoko shiho was very effective when your opponent was turning green from inside elbow balls grip. Yeah, you can bet we learned why the arm went around people in Ogoshi :)

While I never tried it a friend who would grip the back of the opponents pants as he was entering a hip type throw would always gather enough material to life his opponent up my his groin. Hum, isn't that what koshi waza is, groin throws :) Guess some people misinterpreted "loin" for “groin,” huh?

will szlemko
9th September 2002, 20:23
hi all,

While I try to stay away from adding extras to my techniques (when not allowed) my favorite trick that I have used in both karate tournaments and in Judo randori is to get close and give the opponent a kiss on the cheek. Opens up all sorts of targets and is a great way to set kazushi. This was used on me once during a basketball game by what I consider a much inferior player, but that time he was able to score. Being a quick learner I have liked this one ever since. **Warning this can have some consequences with your reputation. If you are homophobic don't try this. It also helps if you have a beautiful significatn other around so that you can demonstrate that it was only a ploy, not a pass.

will

MarkF
10th September 2002, 06:05
Hi, Jeff,
Neither did we. Most things were found not to be nice were the stuff most of us tried. It only became illegal or against the rules when we were told of it by the shinban, usually when well into a shiai career which by then the officials were on to us. Then, new ones were tried. Same result. They worked until the official was told to watch for on the mat. There is a lot not being admitted to, here, as well.


Mark