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Ken Allgeier
16th August 2000, 06:50
RESEARCH INTO THE GOSHIN JUTSU KYO JUJO

Since there has been controversy on E-Budo concerning the history of goshin jutsu kyo jujo and the background of Jerry Durant, I would like at this time to submit the research I have done concerning this matter. I would also like to state for the first time publicly, that I was once a student of Jerry Durant in the early 1970's. I have in my possession all of my original rank certificates, membership cards, qualification sheets, photographs, and other documents to prove my involvement with goshin jutsu. Therefore I think I may have some validity in writing about the history of goshin jutsu since I was an actual student of the founder of the system.
The research I have conducted over the years has included conversations with individuals who have been active in the martial arts since the early 1960's in the Erie, PA area. These individuals who knew Jerry Durant include: Pat Sheldon, Richard Lopez (Mr. Lopez's photographs of William Reeders are used by Philip H.J. Davies, Phd. in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Vol 9, #2-2000), Ray Cunningham, Robert Cividio, and Tom Carr, one of Durant's first students from 1965-1970. In this post I will give various examples of documents, such as certificates of rank signed by Jerry Durant (translated menjo), Jerry Durant's personal certificates, qualification sheets written by Jerry Durant, context of video tape interview with Jerry Durant, and history of the system published by various goshin jutsu schools. I will gladly make available any of these materials to anybody who asks me to. This will validate that goshin jutsu has no historical lineage to Japanese or Okinawan Karate.

THE ORIGINAL GOSHIN JUTSU KYO JUJO

There is no evidence, at this time, that Jerry Durant received a yudanshin rank from any Japanese or Okinawan teacher or organization in Japan. In the early 1960's, Jerry Durant was a white belt student of Richard Addlemen (Shorin Ryu) in the range of 4-6 months. Addlemen had a school on 10th & French, and at one point asked Durant to leave his school. The other karate instructor in Erie at the time, was Sandy Scotch, who moved to Erie from California and taught Shotokan in Erie from 1959 to 1961. The location of the school was in between 4th & French and State ST., and later at 26th & Poplar. His students included Bob Cividio, Ray Cunningham, Bob Green, Guy Savelli, and Richard Lopez. Since the Erie martial arts community was rather small, students of Addlemen would sometimes train at Scotch's school. Durant trained there a number of times, but my sources tell me that Jerry Durant was never a student of Sandy Scotch. When Scotch left Erie, his remaining students kept the school going and called it the goshin jutsu kyo jujo. This is when Durant joined the original Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo school, after leaving Richard Addlemen's school after only 4-6 months of training. The correct Japanese should be goshin jutsu kyoju jo. The phrase "kyo jujo" corectly written should be "Kyoju jo" and not "kyo jujo"; Kyo(teaching) Ju(receiving) Jo(place); the three kanji are numbers:2052, 1946, and 1113 in the Nelson Dictionary. The names of some of the original members of the Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo are Ray Cunningham, Jerry Durant, Bob Cividio, Artis Simmons, Arthur Sikes, and Richard Lopez. Richard Lopez and Bob Cividio have stated to me that the original Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo was not a style. It was just the name of a school, which means "a place to learn self defense." The students then came in contact with William Reeders from the Jamestown and Dunkirk, NY area, who taught Kun Tao. They asked Reeders to teach them martial arts, which he ended up doing on weekend nights in Erie, PA. Mr. Reeders became president of the goshin jutsu kyo jujo school until 1965 (www.worldkungfu.com/personal2.html) when he established his own organization, the World Kung Fu Federation because according to Richard Lopez there were conflicts withing the school. This can be substantiated by an e-mail received by myself on Wednesday, 16 Sep 1998 from James Locke, a student of both Ralph Portfilio and Jerry Durant, who is currently teaching Goshin Jutsu Karate in Erie, PA.:

"The way I was told it there were five men of Martial Arts in the early days. They created the organization of G.J.K.J. and indeed Mr. Reeders was the fust President of the organization. The organization soon fell apart because of differences with the five men and when everything cleared Mr. Durant took over the name and created the Goshin Jutsu Karate system that many have studied. To my knowledge Mr. Durant was not a student of Mr. Reeders but a contemporary."

It was during this interval before 1965, and probably in 1962 that Durant promoted himself to black belt. As Richard Lopez stated to me, he (Lopez) left the school for a few months and when he came back, Durant was a black belt. My sources have informed me that Durant was never a student of Mr. Reeders. However, they were contemporaries. According to Richard Lopez, Durant and Reeders had a falling out quite early within the Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo. If fact, Pat Sheldon stated that at one time Durant doubted Reeder's ability, and Reeders hit Durant in the stomach with a backfist, putting him on the ground.Mr Lopez told me a story inwhich Jerry Durant was acting up at a tournament(Jerry Durant had a habit of acting up at tournaments)and Williem Reeders took Durant in to a room and told him off.Mr Lopez said that when Durant came out of the room,Durant was vary scared and pale. When Reeders started his own Federation, Durant took for himself the original name of the school "goshin jutsu kyo jujo" and began teaching in 1965 at The Crazy Horse Saloon (2nd floor) on 5th & French, where the present day Erie Insurance Exchange building is. At this time, Durant used some of Nishiyama Hidetak's book "Karate the Art of the Empty Hand" ©1959, and created qualification sheets from kyu to dan ranking. This can be validated by the fact that there are many instances in which content from Durant's qualification sheets being verbatim from Nishiyama's book.

PERSONAL REMEMBRANCES

I clearly remember my time as a student of Jerry Durant. The location of the three schools where I was a student of Durant's were: 2224 West 8th, 5th & Wallace, 2631 West 12th. Durant's Goshin Jutsu classes were on monday and wednesday night and on tuesday and thursday nights at the West 8th school, there was Durant's version of aiki-jujutsu.
As I reflect back, several things seem very odd to me. For one thing, Durant never wore a gi during class. He only wore work pants and a white tank top. The only time Durant wore a gi was for demonstrations, and the gi Durant wore was red. Durant would say that the red gi was to symbolize the fact that he a master of karate ( I have three pictures of Durant in the red gi). I have not been able to locate a Japanese or Okinawan karateka in a red gi. I also remember several occasions when Durant would walk onto the floor during class, smoking a cigarrete. This strikes me as very strange because someone who supposedly trained in Japan, or received Yudansha rank from either the Seishin-Kai or Masaru Shintani, would not conduct theirself contrary to the norms of Japanese martial culture.
A typical class would follow as this: Durant would be sitting at his desk or in his office, depending on which school location we were at at the time. The senior student would ask "Kyoto" (as Durant was called at that time) his permission to start the class. Durant would come to the doorway and bow to the class. The following is from one of Durant's typewritten docuemnt regarding the bowing in ceremony at his school.

Beginning of Class:

Ski, Leishi, or Chui - Attention
Rei - Class bows to instructors.
Rei Joseki- class bows to the Master, if he is not present the bow is directed to the Joseki wall. Joseki meaning honorable.
Okurimas - kneel, in the Zen position.
Shushi No Karate Do Kunisai - State the way of karate, please.
Rei Wo Suru - "Eye of Heaven" hands for triangle,, head is placed on floor inside of triangle. This is a time for meditation.
Yo - only head is brought up.
Tachimas Kudasai - Stand, please. Left leg, then right.
Rei - Bow.

The above is not the traditional manner in which to begin a class in a traditional karate dojo.

After warmup excercises, which included both stretching, calisthenics, punches and kicks, Durant would come onto the floor (no gi) and divide the class into groups ( usually three to four) where they would work on different aspects of their training. This is contary to the mode of teaching in a typical traditional karate dojo where everyone is doing the same thing at the same time. Durant would then go back into his office, smoke a cigarrete, drink his coffee, and talk to whomever was around at the time. Sometimes he would teach us one of the goshin jutsu forms, and I remember how there were always differences from the way they were taught a few months earlier. After a ten minute break, the last part of class was usually free style sparring. Durant would always free style spar with his students.
I remember there were several young students from 11 to 14 yrs of age in the class whom Durant would always spar with in a very physical manner, manifested by often hitting them quite hard. As I think back on this, why did Durant, who was an adult and supposedly a master, find it necessary to beat up on students who were only adolescents. I remember one time when he broke one of the kid's eyeglasses. I recall one instance where one of the adolescent students (a green belt) was in the seventh grade and lost a fight at the local junior high school. Durant heard about this from one of the other students during the break. At the start of the second part of class, Durant came on the floor and made everyone sit down except for a brown belt student and the seventh grader. Durant made the seventh grader spar, or in this context, fight with the brown belt who was about 18 years old. Durant coached the brown belt student and belittled the green belt student by saying that none of his students would never lose a street fight, and that the green belt would have to go back and fight the other junior high school student again. The green belt's face turned red. He was soaked in sweat, physically exhausted. The beating was reminiscent of what I have seen on TV documentaries about street gangs. As I reflect back, this incident in which Durant had publically and physically humiliated this seventh grader was quite disturbing.


CERTIFICATES HELD BY JERRY DURANT


I have a high resolution full color copy of the certificate dated at St. Catherines, Ontario, on November 12, 1966, promoting Durant to Yodan, signed by Masaru Shintani, which turns out to be a forgery because:
1. I have contacted the Shintani Karate Shindo Federation, which I sent a full color copy of the certificate to. The signatures of Shintani on documents within the Shintani Karate Shindo Federation do not match the signatures on Durant's certificates. Thus, the certificate promoting Durant to yondan is a forgery.
2. I was informed by the Shintani Karate Shindo Federation that there is no knowledge or documentation within the Federation of Durant being a student of Shintani.
3. On the certificate, it is printed that A. Kitegawa, is the International President of the Nippon Karate Kai. The problem is that Kitegawa died in 1956. So how could a dead person be a president of anything?
4. The certificate has a number of suspicious rubbing and scratching marks all over it, with printing on top of the rubbings and scratching.
5. The certificate promotes Durant to yondan, but in the lower right hand corner, it is printed that Jerry Durant is already a yondan. So how can a menjo promote someone to a given rank which is already stated in print on the menjo?
6. Masaru Shintani was a teacher of Wado-Ryu. Jerry Durant never taught Wado-Ryu or the classical Katas of Wado-Ryu.
7. The only style mentioned on the certificate is that of Kempo. I had the kanji translated from the certificate. Here it the translation:

"Kenpo karatedo no shugyo ni seikinshi shushi-ikkan [moro nori ?] wo mamori reisetsu wo omoninji shu ni han wo shimesu yotte gyaku shihan no suikyo ni yori menkyo wo fukyo suru."

"[For] your constant diligence and pursuit of knowledge in kenpo karatedo,
observing the several rules, respecting courtesy/etiquette, and serving as
an example to others; therefore because of the proposal/recommendation of
other teachers, I grant you this certificate."

Why would a teacher of Wado-Ryu promote somebody in the style of Kempo? There is no evidence of Jerry Durant ever teaching Kempo.

Tatsu-Do Certificates

I have two certificates from the Tatsu-Do Yudanshakai certifying that "Grand Master Durant" is promoted to the rank of judan, "10th Degree Black Belt," in the art of aiki-jutsu on 10-11-84. The signature of the Shihan is that of William Cavalier. The signature of the instructor is that of "Daiku Yama," which translates as "Great Sky Mountain." The karate certificate is dated 10-10-84, and the signatures are the same. The question to ask, is how could William Cavalier, a student of Jerry Durant, promote his own teacher to the rank of 10th degree blackbelt in both karate and aiki-jutsu? It is not specified which Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu authorized the aiki-jutsu certificate.




Seishin-Kai Karate Union Documents

As for the claims of Jerry Durant's rank in the Seishinkai, they are a misrepresentation of the facts. I have three color copies of Seishinkai certificates.
1. A sandan certificate from January 27, 1967, to a "Jerard Durant."
2. A certificate acknowleging Durant's participation to a "Mr. Gerald Durant."
3. A Seishin-Kai school registration certificate signed by Richard P. Baillargeon.

I have contacted members of the Seishini-Kai and talked to Michael Fletcher in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Mr. Flethcer was a student of the late Shogo Kuniba, and currently is a student of Kuniba's most senior student, William H. Price. I have a copy of the July 1985 issue of Black Belt Magazine in which Shogo Kuniba placed an ad (on page 39) listing all the dojos within the Seishin-Kai Karate Union in America. The first dojo listed, besides Kuniba's dojo, is that of William H. Price. Michael Fletcher told me that he and Mr. Price have never heard of a Jerry Durant from Erie, PA. Mr. Fletcher told me the story of Richard Baillargeon, who opened up the United States branch of the Seishin-Kai in the 1960's for anyone willing to pay to join. This is in contrast to the fact that the Seishin-Kai Karate Union was formed for the Motobu-Ha Shito-Ryu only. As Mr. Fletcher said to me that Baillargeon's actions were along the lines of "send me money and I'll send you rank." And, Mr. Fletcher specified that "claims and certificates like Durant's are a dime-a-dozen," because or Baillargeon's policies.
This story can be confirmed in a conversation I had with Tom Carr, one of Durant's most senior students who started training with Durant in 1965. Mr. Carr stated that Durant told him the Seishin-Kai was going to be the new United States Karate Association. Therefore, Jerry Durant joined the Seishin-Kai, since Richard Baillargeon opened up the membership to anyone willing to pay to join. Mr. Carr has certificates from the Seishin-Kai but has no knowledge of ever training in the Motobu-Ha Shito-Ryu, and also says that to his knowledge Jerry Durant was never a student of Baillargeon. According to Mr. Carr, Durant was only in the Seishin-Kai from 1967-1969. This is validated by the dates on Durant's Seishin-Kai certificates which range only from 1967-1969. Mr. Carr stated that Durant never left Erie from 1967-1969 and that the communications between Durant and Baillargeon was through the mail or by phone.

If one examines the logistics of the situation, it doesn't pan out because Richard Baillargeon returned to the United States in 1964
from Japan and lived in Georgia(Sells;Unante,pg 142). So the big
question is, how could Durant receive a legitimate sandan in
Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu from the Seishin-Kai in only three years?
According to the stipulations of the Federation of All Japan
Karate-Do Organization which the Seishin-Kai Karate Union, Motobu-Ha Shito- Ryu,is a member of, there is a minium time in training of 3 years to receive a SHODAN;1964+3=1967. Also the Federation of All Japan Karate-Do organization also stipulates a minimum of 6 years to go from SHODAN to GODAN. 1967+6=1973. The math does not work out and numbers do not lie, so where is the logic in all this? How could Durant get from Erie, Pa to Georgia to train consistenly to achieve rank?
I contacted John Milligan, a student of Clement Riedner, the second Amreican to receive a shodan from Kuniba Sensei in 1962. Mr. Milligan informed me that when Baillargeon returned to the United States, he already had a quantity of pre-made rank certificates. Mr. Fletcher also informed me that any Seishin-Kai certificate must have Shogo Kuniba's handwritten signature (in English) on the certificate to be valid. I have a copy of a Seishin-Kai certificate from November 23, 1980, to a Mrs. Catherine Church. This certificate is signed in English by Shogo Kuniba and James Herndon. I would like to note that the certificate in question which promotes Jerry Durant to sandan in the Seishin-Kai Karate Union, containes a major mistake in dating. Examples:

1. Year for Showa (Reign of Emperor Hirohito) - The month of January is listed instead of year 42.
2. Under the kanji meaning "month," it is incorrectly written as 27.
3. Under the kanji for "day," it is incorrectly written as 1967.



I clearly remember in 1972 when Glenn Premru, a Shorin-Ryu stylist from Pittsburgh, PA, came to Jerry Durant's school at West 8th St. and gave a clinic in which he taught the Naihanchi Shodan kata. I also remember a time at the 5th and Wallace school when a Ishhin-Ryu black belt came and taught the kata Seisan. This raises the question: How could Jerry Durant receive a legitimate yondan from Masuru Shintani or from the Seishin-Kai Karate Union and not know the katas Naihanchi Shodan and Seisan, considering the fact they are both classical katas taught in Wado-Ryu and Shito-Ryu?

THE HISTORY OF GOSHIN JUTSU KYO JUJO

In the video tape interview that was done in Texas, Durant claims to have been born in Japan and trained in the martial arts until he was 16 years old, and that his father was a Frenchman and his mother was Japanese. I can remember back early as 1971 that Durant himself said his father taught him Jujutsu. These stories can be found on Joe Brague's web page:
http://www.rahul.net/goshin/pages/history.htm .

"Jerry was introduced to Karate by his father who was a Jujitsu master.Master Durant was in the merchant marines in the 1940's when he jumped ship in Japan,spending the next 13 years learning Karate.Then he came back to North America he held a 6th degree ranking and studied with a Buddhist mank in Canada for 3 years"


I also received this email from James Locke, a teacher of goshin jutsu karate in Erie, PA.:July 1,1998

"My style is Goshin Jutsu. It's a combination of Okinawan Karate and Japanese JuJutsu. My teacher was Grand Master Gerard Durant."

The problem with these statement is that it has never been defined which Ryu of JuJutusu or Okinawan Karate constitutes Durant's goshin jutsu.If Durant's father was a Jujutsu master,why did he introduce Karate and not Jujutsu?I e-mailed Mr Brague and asked for the name of the Buddhist monk in Canada,I recived no answer from Mr Brague.

As often has happens there are so many wild inconsistencies about Jerry Durant's background,when in fact ,Durant's obituary states he was born in Utica, New York, and that his father's name was Victor and his mother's name was Mary Roth. They eventually lived in Niagra Falls, New York. It has never been explained by anyone which Ryu of Jujutsu did Durant supposedly learn and teach, and if Durant did train in Japan, why was he a student of Richard Addleman?

Other false claims made by Durant in the videotape interview:

1. He, Durant, was the first person to teach karate in Canada.
2. He taught combat judo at several Army bases in the U.S.
3. Claimed to have been a Judo official under General Curtis Lemay.
4. Was a bodyguard for Hidy Ochiai.
5. Was Artis Simmon's teacher.
6. That Hohan Soken was the head of the Seishinkai Karate Union.
7. That Gichin Funakoshi went to Okinawa to learn Karate then bring it back to Japan.
8. That he drove overnight to Chicago and beat up Shojiro Sugiyama.
9. Claims that he can read, write, and speak Japanese.
10. That the Goshin Jutsu association was started by the Yamabushi's in northern Japan.

According to Richard Lopez "Jerry Durant told alot of stories about himself" as far back as the early 1960's this explains why there are so many wild inconsistenceies about Jerry Durant's background.The source of this fictional storys were Jerry Durant himself.In a interview with Tom Carr,one of Durant's first students (from 1965 to 1970),Mr Carr said that "Durant would allways say ,that he learned the martial arts in Japan during World War II". This story is borne out by the literature of a goshin jutsu school in Lakewood NY. The information comes from a interview with Jerry Durant from around 1982.


"Goshin Jutsu: Our style of Goshin Jutsu can be traced to the teachings of Jamaka and Murakami in Fukoka,Japan,(west coast) during and after the period of WWII.Since the Martial Arts practicing was outlawed during that time,training was sectetive and much of its history is left obscure.Its original criteria is unknown,but was mainly developed as a fighting art with traditionally low stances and close in fighting.One of the students of this period 1949-1953,Master Jerry Durant,brought the style to Erie,Pennsylvania,with a set of formulated kata which are similar to ours today."

What is interesting about this story is that,Jamaka is not a family name, it could mean 'Am I a bother ' in the male speach pattern (jama= bother;ka=impolite form of "desuka" making it a question),Murakami is a Japanese surname meaning "above the village".Other mistake is in the reference to "Fukoka" is really Fukuoka, a province in southern Japan.If you look at Bruce Hanies book " Karate History & Tradition"C 1968.(pub Tuttle) on page 132,you will find the name Murakami, and a reference to Fukuoka Japan, I belive this is more than just a coincidence. The question to ask is why are there so many story about Jerry Durants which divert from one other, considering he only lived in the 20th century. As Tom Carr has stated that Jerry Durant claimed to have trained in Japan during WW2 and as a former student of Durant's, I remember him telling us that,he was part of the U.S occupation force in Japan after World War 2, but then Durant would change his story and say, that he was in Okinawa and not Japan, but then a few months later he would chage the story back, to being in Japan.On Hugh Cassidy and Ralph Profilio webpage, the claim is that Jerry Durant studied from a Samurai prince named Shigeru Murakami. This is contradicted by Toby Threadgill of the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai, on a post on E-Budo from August 10, 2000:

"I believe it would be accurate to say that by the Edo Period the Japanese royal family and the samurai (warrior class) were distinctly different social classes. Therefore a "Samurai Prince" is pretty much a ficticious character. (It probably sounds good in fairy tales though.)Besides,the samurai as a recognized social class was abolished in 1868."

On Joe Brague's webpage, the contradiction is:

"Master Durant was in the Merchant Marines in the 1940's when he jumped ship in Japan, spending the next 13 years learing Karate. When he came back to North American he held a 6th degree ranking and he studied with a Buddhist monk in Canada for 3 years."

From David Haberman webpage(http://home.spynet.com/~dhaberman/goshinju.htm)it is stated.

"Goshin Jutsu Karate is an effective system of self defense founded by the late Grand Master G. Durant. It is a Okinawan form of martial arts.....These techniques are combined into prerranged attacks and counters(Waza), solo practice forms(Kata) and free sparring (Kumite)."

In Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan Karate C.1989,all the styles of Okinawan Karate are listed and there is no style of Karate called "goshin jutsu." Also, all the kata's of Karate are listed in Bishop's book and none of Durant's goshin jutsu empty handed forms are on the catalogue of classical Okinawan kata. This claim that Durant's goshin jutsu is a form of Okinawan Karate is in direct conflict from a newspaper article from the Erie Daily Times(Sportweek) from Monday, December 20, 1982.which listed the different Schools in Erie,Pa

"Master Jerry Durant,the Polish Falcons Club, 602 E 19th. offers traditional Japanese Karate classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 7 to 9 p.m.The price is $20 per month."

Profilio told us in class that the style he taught, goshin jutsu, was a "master style, taught only to masters in Japan". What was never explained was: who were these masters and in what city in Japan did they train and what was the name of there dojo. He also told in class that the history of our style was started by, bandits in China who used to watch the monks practicis the martial arts and then these bandits went to Okinawa and developed their style of Karate, there in Okinawa, then these bandits or there descendents went to Japan and combined their Karate with Aiki Jujutsu, thus creating goshin jutsu. I also have some literature from Bob Bohach which parallels this story.

"The syle of Goshin Jutsu (Defending the Body Arts) developed in Canton, China, and later emerged in Japan where there was added Aiki-Jujutsu and hard style movements to the advanced soft movements."

It has never been explained from which teacher of Daito-Ryu Aiki-JuJutsu the supposed Aiki-Jutsu techniques within Durant's goshin jutsu, come from.

I have posed this question to every goshin jutsu webpage, every individual on the internet who has been enganged in the study of Durant's goshin jutsu, and goshin jutsu schools via telephone:
"About the Karate you are training and practicing in, is the lineage derived from Shuri-Te, Naha-Te, or Tomari-Te?"
The only response I ever received was from James Locke on August 29, 1998, which is as follows.

"To be quite honest I'm not 100% sure where we came from. My teacher Grand Master Durant indicated that it was similar to Funakoshi's which would indicate Shuri-Te or Naha-Te. Unlike the oriental culture that our style came from my instructor did not adhere to one specific style or belief. When he found something useful he incorporated it into the system and if he found something outdated or useless he discarded it. As with all live systems Goshin Jutsu is a work in progress.
Master Locke"

In the same context as the previous question, I have asked the question on the origins of the goshin jutsu system and received only two responses. The first response was from Michael Rooney, a teacher of goshin jutsu in Waterford, PA.

"There is much controversy over where the style originated. To be honest no one knows for sure but it is believed that the style originated in China. If by any chance you find anything else on the matter please let me know.
Thank you
Michael Rooney"

I find it very strange that people are teaching a system of self defense in which they have little knowlege of its history. I am surprised that they do not understand what Shuri-Te, Naha-Te, and Tomari-Te mean in the context of karate's lineage. This is analagous to someone claiming to teach physics, but has no knowledge of Einstein's heory of Relativity.

The second response was from Tim Hillman, a student of William Cavalier.
"I will tell you what I know of the Tatsu Do lineage. The head of the System is my teacher, William R. Cavalier who was given permission to form the system by his teacher, Gerard, Durant. Master Durant, the son of a French chef, grew up in Japan in the 1920's. I believe that his mother was Japanese. His Aiki Jutsu teacher was Master Masaru Murakami. Master Durant trained in Japan and Okinawa in the 1920's and 1930's and for a time in the 1950's. When Master Murakami died, Master Durant became head of the system. He formulated the ranking system and incorporeated the karate kata into the system, and named it Goshin Jutsu Kyu Jujo (school to learn self defense). He was, for a time, the North East Director of the Seishin-Kai under Kosei Kuniba. At one time he was the only man given permission by Master Murakami, to teacher Aiki outside of Japan. He was friends with Master Hohan Soken, and Master Ueshiba. In Japan his teachers were Masami Ishibashi (karate), Takeshi Ishiguru (JuJutsu) and Master Masaru Murakami (Aiki Jutsu). In Okinawa his teacher was Sohi Soshiura (I hope this spelling is correct) in JuJutsu and Aiki Jutsu. "
I find it strange that there are many contradictary stories by so many goshin jutsu teachers in the same geographic location. On February 22, 2000 E-Budo thread called "Is a Kyoshi a Wizard?," based on a webpage by Steve Hunter, a student of Jerry Durant in Texas, I asked Earl Hartman to look at seven different goshin jutsu (Durant's goshin jutsu) web pages. Mr. Hartman's response was:

"...it seems clear to me that the school(s) in question seem to be home-grown North American systems developed by people who are a number of removes away from

[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 09-14-2000 at 06:40 PM]

Ken Allgeier
16th August 2000, 06:54
"...it seems clear to me that the school(s) in question seem to be home-grown North American systems developed by people who are a number of removes away from Japan, China, or Okianwa. One thing I can say, though, is that they obviously don't know anything about the Japanese language. The webpages say that their Grand Master (Kyoto Durant?) spent many years in Japan; this may be true, but I find it hard to believe that, since the "Japanese" they use is so strange. Also, I have never heard of a bunch of black belts in a certain system getting together and "voting" to make their teacher (who taught them the system to begin with) a "Soke."

The claims that Jerry Durant learned and legitamately held rank in, or was a student of Aiki-Jutsu or Aikido is contradicted by Stanley Pranin, editor and publisher of The Aikido Journal. I asked Mr. Pranin if he had any knowledge of a "Jerry Durant" in the context of the Aiki arts. I also sent information from Hugh Cassidy's web page and information from correspondence with Tim Hillman concerning claims of Jerry Durant's involvement in Aiki. Mr. Pranin's response was:

"Sir,

I have never heard of this individual. Since he was born in 1923 and
received a
dan ranking in the 1930s he must have been very precocious!
Sorry not to have been more helpful.

Sincerely yours,

Stanley Pranin"

The plethora of vastly contradictory stories of Jerry Durant's background can be attributed to Jerry Durant himself. As Richard Lopez told me, "Durant talked up a lot of stuff about his background."


KATA

The question of the goshin jutsu empty hand forms is paramount in understanding this quagmire of confusion. There is great controversy over the origins of the empty hand forms Durant taught. It is stated in Stephen Capella Jr. and Wiliam Kutz's textbook on "Goshin Jutsu Karate (c) 1972,"This book contains all the forms required for the student to become a shodan." The forms in the textbook are as follows:
1 hajimete undo no Karate
2 futatsu me undo Karate
3 mitsu me undo no Karate
4 yottsu me undo no Karate
5 yonka*
6 ichi bando
7 shimitsu*
8 ugoku ni roku
9 kishu totsugeki
10 godan*
11 chuoku te
*These do not appear in Capella's book, but are listed on Durant's qualification sheets that I have from the early 1970's.

These empty hand forms listed above are not derived from either Shuri-Te, Naha-Te, or Tomari-Te. Thus, these are not legitimate classical karate katas from Okinawa. In Capella's book, Heian Shodan and Heian Yodan are listed. In Capella's book, the movements of each form are written out in their consecutive order. In the description of Heian Shodan, only the first three movements resemble the original Shotokan kata, while the remaining movements are simply arbitraru and incorrect. The Heian Yodan kata depicted in the book does closely resemble the original Shotokan kata except for the fact that they are using the neko ashi dachi at the beginning instead of the kokutsu dachi. What is interesting to inject here is that the only classical kata Durant taught was Heian Yodan which is the only kata depicted (by photograph) in Nishiyama Hidetaka's book, Karate Art of the Empty Hand. This is because Durant used Nishiyama's book to help create some of his qualification sheets, and thus used this kata for himself. I have videotape footage of one of Durant's students (a brown belt) performing Heian Yondan and the excecution of the kata is so extremely far from the original, that it is humorous. On the video tape I have of Durant's students performing their empty handed forms, they usually kiai ten times or more, which is contrary to classical karate katas which only contain two kiai per kata.From Rolf Strom(a student of Matthew Durant) comprehensive notebook there are listed the weapon forms taught in 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' they are,

Hajimete undo no Bo
Heian 4 Bo
Heian 4 Sai
Hajimete Tonfa
Kama kata

These are not authentic weapon kata's from Okinawa and do not constitute classical Ryukyu Kobujutsu curriculum,they were just made up in Erie,Pa.

GOSHIN JUTSU RANK CERTIFICATES


I have a number of rank certificates signed by Jerry Durant and his son Matthew which are written in Japanese or have some kanji on them. I had these translated and the translator has concluded that:

"If he reads,writes and speaks Japanese, one could not tell by the penmenship used on your certificate. The brush storkes and writing pattern are not indicative of someone skilled in the Japanese language. As a matter of fact,the penmanship is consistent with a non-native speaker who is copying Chinese characters from a dictionary (kosho: block letters) and from another source documents."

On two rank certificates dated 7-15-72 (Durant's claim was that ,the one in Japanese said the same as in english) the one writen in Japanese ,has four different Karate organization on it.
1. The All Japan Karate Association,............( founded by Kanken Toyama 1888-1966)
2. The Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu..........................( founded by Kosei Kuniba in 1943)
3. The Japan Karate Association...................(founded by Funakoshi Gichin)
4. The Japan Karate Rengokai .......................( headed currently by Kinjo Hiroshi)

The question to be asked, is why are there four different Karate organization on one certificate? This is analagous to receiving a college diploma from four different universities. It is also stated on the certificate, that a Akira Kitagawa 8th Dan in the Japan Karate Assiociation, there was never an Akira Kitagawa in the J.K.A.. In Fact Kitagawa was the first Karate teacher to Masaru Shintani in the internment camps during WW2 in Canada, Akira Kitagawa died in 1956. Other problem with this certificate stated by the translator states.

" Another inconsistency is the date.The year "72" follows what in Japanese is "Showa".Showa refers to the reign of the last Emperior, Hirohito.The year 1972 would be Showa 47. Therefore, someone knowledgeable with Japanese would have written "47" vice"72." Also, the "Japanese" ceretificate promotes you to 6th kyu, whereas the English version says 7th kyu. Finally, and the most humorously, the assumed name used as the "master" is Hayaguchi Otoko. This is also used on the cover with the club patch. The funny part is that this is not a Japanese name. It is Japanese, though, and means "Fast-talking Man". Hayaguchi is literally "fast mouth" and "otoko" means (boy or man). The signature is consistent with the American name on the bottom (note the "t" which I've circled in red)"


In another certificate from 3-24-1992, presented to Rolf Strom, a student of Matthew Durant, the Kanji written on the rank certificate reads: Aiki-jutsu-do. The charaters are written from top to bottom and say: Ai, Ki, Jutsu, Do. Anyone who knows anything about Budo, knows that there is no such use of Japanese as Aikijutsudo or Kenjutsudo, Jujutsudo, Iaijutsudo. Also (again) the name Akira Kitagawa appears on the certificate as a 8th Dan in the Japan Aikikai. There are two Karate organizations on this Aikijutsudo certificate, the Motobo-Ha Shito Ryu and the Japan Karatedo Rengokai. Why are there two Karate organization on a Aiki menjo? Some of the notes from the translator, from this Aikijutsudo menjo:

"Goshinjjutsu Kakusai jo no Dourando Shikisha" which means "self-defense art beyond international conductor Durant" it could be also be incorrect syntax for " International art of self-defense, conductor Durant"Shikisha" means "commander conductor of a orchestra"

...................Shintani Katsu, 4th Dan, why does Mr Shintani, a 4th Dan, take precidence over Mr Sanga 8th Dan
............................Shu Ri Do Ran, I cannot make any sense of this
...................It is unusual (never heard of it before) to make a federation (renmei) of a dojo. Goshinjutsu kyojusho Renmei Kokusai,translates to "Art of Self-defense training place federation international"
.............................Japan Karatedo Goshin jutsu Ryu.Improper syntax, never mix"jutsu" with Ryu, Jutsu modifies the art, Ryu modifies the lineage."


This raises the question: If Jerry Durant and his goshin jutsu kyo jujo system/organization was legitimate, why is there a need to create false, fraudlent and bogus certificates? On several webpages and in a interview with Jerry Durant and other documents that I have, Jerry Durant claims that his teacher in Japan was someone named Murakami, but the name Murakami does not appear on any of the ten certificates signed by Jerry Durant or his Son Matthew. Why?


THE 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' FIST PATCH

Jerry Durant's goshin jutsu system,organization patch,(somtimes refered to as a insignias,logo or style crest)is a facsimile of the Gojukai fist.The salient point is that 'goshin jutsu' patch is rendered in Hiragana,not Kanji.Hiragana is a syllabary alphabet to augment Kanji reading.However,when combined with another Kanji,the Hiragana can be droped because the reader can tell by context what the reading should be.All authentic styles of Karate use Kanji(not Hiragana) to repersent there schools/styles/organization,so the question to ask is.Why did Jerry Durant use only Hiragana for his styles patch instead of the proper use of Kanji? Also the "in no" (stamp of) always comes last,in Durant's case it comes first.


TERMINOLOGY


Most important are the major mistakes made by Durant in the context of defining termimlogy.In both Durants qualification sheets,Stephen Capela & William Kutz book.C1972,on goshin jutsu and Profilio qualifiication sheets.

Waza is defined as : prearranged attack with a prearranged block and counter attack.


Morote Uke is defined as : inside formarm block


Mate is defined as : stop

Kyoto is defined as as : head teacher or as your teacher's teacher.

In fact,
Waza means --Technique

Prearranged attack and defense in sparing is refered to as either Yakusoku Kumite or Kaeshi ippon kumite

Morote Uke means a Double arm,augmented forearm block

Uchi ude Uke is a inside forearm block

Yame means - stop
Kyoto means - Assistant principle of a secondary school.

This lack of knowledge in the correct use of terminology ,raises the question,how could Jerry Durant have legitimately trained in Japan ; been a student of and recive yudansha rank from Masaru Shintani, and been a legitimate sandan or godan in the Motobu- Ha Shito Ryu,Seishinkai Karate Union and not know the correct use of Japanese martial terminology.To this day in the Erie,Pa. area goshin jutsu school still use these terms incorrectly.

TECHNIQUE

One of the reasons why I left the goshin jutsu system was of its technical inferiorty to classical Karate. As both students of Jerry Durant and one of his senior students Ralph Profilio, we were never taught hip rotation (koshi waza) or how to create power by the use of hip rotation in any given technique, in the same manner as performed in classical Karate. In my observation of goshin jutsu I have never seen proper bio-mechanics being taught or performed, also lacking is the concept of muscle connection, the importance of relaxation, tension, and relaxation in any given technique. Also, there was no kizami zuki. The back stance was different from the traditional Japanese and Okinawan kokutsu dachi. As for the rear foot heel in goshin, it is not in line with the front foot. Instead, it is placed usually from one to two foot lengths away from the front foot heal. The goshin jutsu practicioners constantly would move forwrds to backwards in their forms by slapping the arch of their foot against the top of the opposite calf muscle. This can clearly be seen on the video tape footage.
What is also lacking in the goshin jutsu system is the knowledge of strategies and concepts inherit to all classical karate styles and other forms of Budo. In all of Durant's qualification sheets that I have from the early 70's, Stephen Capella's book, and Ralph Portfilio's qualification sheets, these terms are never mentioned or from my personal experience, were never taught or learned. These terms are:

Tai Sabaki, Sen No Sen, Go No Sen, Zanshin, Maai, Ikken Hissatsu, Bunkai,Kobo-itchi, Mushin. Dojo Kun, Kohai, Sempai, Kihon.

As students of Durant and Profilio, we never learned or practiced Gohon Kumite, Sanbon, Kihon Ippon Kumite, JiJu Ippon Kumite, Kaeshi Ippon Kumite, and Yakusoku Kumite. Why were these never taught? The reason is Jerry Durant was just a novice and had no long term formal training in any authentic karate style, and thus created an inability to pass on such knowledge to his students.
The question of how good Jerry Durant and the goshin jutsu system is, is subjective. The view can be taken that one indivdual's technical excellence is another individual's technical ineptitude. On to the question of Durant's background, I contacted the Tsuruka Karate Federation. Through Andrew Bowerback, a senior student of Masami Tsuruka (designated as the Father of Canadian Karate by the Canadian Government), I received this information via e-mail:

"I showed Tsuruoka Sensei your emails. He says he remembers Jerry Durant vagely from our C.N.E tournaments back in the 60s, early 70's. he would come up here to compete from time to time only. Sensei in no way graded him for shodan. In fact, he cannot even remember him going to very many formal
classes!! He would come up here from the USA and claim to be some obscure style, and stay for a day or so at a time. Sensei says he remembers his techniques being very weak and sloppy. Sensei says he trained only 2-3 times in the mid to late 60's. He claimed to be a black belt from another style, and since he was only there a few times, he let him wear it with no questions asked (as was his policy at that time for short term visitors). Sensei apologizes for his poor memory, Durrant was not that important of a consideration to make any impact."

I have in my possession a videotape of the following: A demonstration by Jerry Durant and his students in a Texas mall; goshin jutsu practicioners at a couple Erie tournaments; Durant's students at the Polish Falcon's Club performing their empty hand and weapon forms; Durant teaching something that looks like Jujutsu while at one point speaking English with a poor Japanese accent; Bob Bohac and some of his senior students doing something that looks like Aiki; A clinic by Bob Bohac, who wears a black hakama and a black goshin t-shirt, and an interview with Jerry Durant.
I sent a copy of the tape to David Chambers, publisher and editor of Dragon Times, and he said he was appalled by the extreme low quality and the technical skills demonstrated on the tape. In fact, he didn't consider it worthy of any further discussion.

CONCLUSION

In the final analysis, Jerry Durant's goshin jutsu is simply an eclectic system founded by an individual who was basically a novice (with little formal training), who promoted himself to black belt; created his own forms; and started to teach students in the mid 1960's.There is nothing in the historical record or literature to validate any of Jerry Durant's claims. The system is best suited for the American open tournament scene. This system is not a legitimately historical style of authentic Japanese or Okinawan Karate. In fact, "goshin jutsu" is just a generic term for "self defense." No doubt this study will anger many in the goshin jutsu kyo jujo community, but as it says in the Dao Te Ching: "Beautiful words are often not truthful, and truthful words are often not beautiful."

ken allgeier


[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 09-14-2000 at 06:38 PM]

Ken Allgeier
16th August 2000, 07:03
Well, everybody, here it is.
I'm leaving on vacation, going to Vegas.
So, if anybody e-mails me I'm sorry I won't be able to reply for a few days. When I get back, I hope my windows are not broken or my house is not burnt down. This is really not a joke. In the past, I have received threatening e-mails, messages left on my answering machine, and a few months ago someone trespassed on my property and left a "goshinists" school card in my back door - i guess the purpose was to intimidate me. I just want everybody to know that my neighbor across the street is a Sgt. in the Millcreek Police Department and I have asked him to keep and eye on my home.


thank you,


ken allgeier

Victor Smith
16th August 2000, 15:07
Ken,

You certainly have put a great deal of effort into your case regarding Jerry Durant.

Your case may well have merit, but only independent review and verification of this material would constitute actual proof. By this I mean, to accept your words as completely true, it should be given the same level of review as within a court of law. Anything less will always be a question of belief of the speaker.

I wonder whether there is a real interest from other marial artists to seek that independent review. Except when I trained with some of the GJKJ practioners over 20 years ago ,I've never seen any movement of others to find out more about the system. It always struck me as just another private group, of which multitudes abound in the martial arts.

This is obviously a very personal issue for you. If I recall correctly it began with questions about a GJKJ practioner who may well have been running his school with cult like practices. Then the discussion shifted from that individual to the validity of the system and to the validity of the claims made by Jerry Durant, the acknowledged system founder.

My own brief association with Goshin Jutsu… practioners, tends to leave me in agreement and disagreement with your postulates.

Yes, some of the practioners have resorted to very cult like practices. That should be of interest to all of us, for in many ways all martial artists are open to such charges, and I've seen to many examples (both of Americans and Japanese and Okinawans and Indonesians and Koreans and on, to dismiss that concept from any nationality. For the preservation of all sincere martial artists, we should always encourage the truth of martial cults to be brought open.

On the other hand I've known Goshin Jutsu… practioners who did not follow the same pattern. Ones who did use the hip with their punching, etc. As in any situation, finding a bad apple in a barrel doesn't make all of the others rotten.

What one person considers a standard, another will find question with.

Go back 100 years, and there was NO Okinawan Karate rank standards. Those that were adopted in the last century were never universal. Okinawan instrutors have been know to hand high rank out with aplomb, and those receiving those ranks, have developed organizations which have spanned over 40 years to date. I know of those who consider all Okinawan rank a Japanese confidence trick, to make the Okinawans look like their arts were acceptable within the older Japanese Martial Arts community.

If your case is true, and the origins of the art taught by Jerry Durant are suspect, that does not mean there aren't those who have developed themselves into legitimate lines of study.

The fact there might not be a 'legitimate' paper trail to some past group, does not change the reality of making techniques work. Nor does it make bad techniques good ones either. Everything revolves among the actuality for each event level.

I'm concerned that your intense efforts aren't concentrating on an current instructor whose current practices would seem to bear public scrutiny.

Rank itself is a vast question. The truth is each generation of martial artists keep re-inventing what the terms mean. Consider Miyagi Chojun (founder of Goju Ryu) would not award anyone with Dan (black belt) ranking. Yet once he died, his best students, his most stand up men, immediately adopted the standard which the founder was in total disagreement. I'm not questioning whether Goju practioners should have rank or its legitmacy. Time and effort have proven the worth without doubt. On the other hand there can still be strong disagreement on such issues.

Now you've stated your case, Ken, what do you propose we do with it from here?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi

Ken Allgeier
16th August 2000, 16:10
Victor,


If you send me your address,I will send you a copy of the goshin jutsu tape.As they say " the proof is in the pudding"


Also,I think it is only correct that people teaching Durant's goshin jutsu,tell there students the truth and be honest about the system; it is not a style of classical,traditional ,Japanese or Okinawan Karate'




ken allgeier

Jesse
17th August 2000, 03:13
I applaud Ken for his hard work. I was a former student of goshin jutsu for many years and held the rank of shodan with the system. I also have the certificates and translations and also video tapes. Send me an email and I will send copies of what ever is asked. I have video of durant teaching kata,students demonstrating his kata,an interview of him in Texas and also a video tape of a demo he put on. I too sent these out to many scholars of Japanese and Okinawan Karate. They to felt that what they saw was horrible. When I started to pursue traing in Shotokan I had a terrible time with the hip rotation and its relationship to power. The Kata of goshin jutsu have very strange and awkward stances and technique. I worked them for years but I was never comfortable with the movements. I could never get true power. Of course I felt I wasnt working hard enough. I then met some practioners of traditional Karate. I was amazed at the comfort and flow of the movements. These were patient individuals who spent hours trying to teach me hip rotation.
For those who want copies of certificates and video send me an email with your adress I will send copies of what I have. Please be patient because I will have to make copies.
Jesse Williams

Jesse
18th August 2000, 17:13
I figured some of Durants other students would have have something to say to refute Ken's research.

Jesse Williams

Tetsutaka
18th August 2000, 18:19
Thanks, Ken, for your hard work. It was educational reading for sure. Perhaps we can find a repository for this kind of information - like the "Quackwatch" site that exposes bad doctors...


Originally posted by Ken Allgeier
As they say " the proof is in the pudding"

BTW, I'm not sure - but I think it's "putting". ;)

Jesse
19th August 2000, 03:20
It would be nice to have input from students and instructors of goshin jutsu to comment on Kens research.

Jesse Williams

Ken Allgeier
28th August 2000, 06:17
Hello All,

I just revised my original post on the history of goshin jutsu, if anybody is interested.

ken allgeier

Ken Allgeier
16th September 2000, 04:13
I just revised my research I hope for the last time.I added some new information and corrected some mistakes.

_____________________________________________


And still no one has step forward and attemped to refute my research,I find that interesting.






ken allgeier

Yoriki Yoroidoshi
16th September 2000, 06:39
Hey there. You said it was interesting that no Goshin martial artists had made any comments on what you've said yet. There's a very good reason for that, several actually.

I don't know any other Goshin martial artists that read anything on this website. Sorry, but not everyone goes on the net every chance they get and does a search for E-Budo. I've searched for Goshin Jutsu, and this site isn't anywhere on the lists. If you want someone Goshin to reply to you, go to a Goshin dojo and leave fliers or something sayng "Read what I have to say!" and the URL of the site. This is almost like me doing research on plywood and sticking it on the floor in my room wondering why no one comments on it.

Another reason is, well, I've been reading this stuff for awhile now and I just haven't had the urge to sign up as a member because, well, quite frankly, I could care less what you have to say about Goshin. You've said yourself you're not currently in it. People that are not into something and don't benefit from it are sure to ridicule it out of ignorance. Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, far from it. This is just a general statement.

Enough people asked for a Goshin POV, so I guess I might as well give it. You're research was VERY biased. You said you researched the history of Goshin, but what you did was report everything bad you could find on the history of Goshin. I'm not going to claim that everything you said was false, but I am going to say that not all of it was true. First, I think you need to check out your Japanese terminology.

http://www.usmaf.org/resources/japan.htm

This is what I've always gone by, if you want to prove them to be wrong, go ahead and try. If the martial art world decides that the USMAF doesn't know their Japanese, I'll go along with that, but for now I'm trusting them.

Moving right along, Goshin Jutsu and Goshin International are 2 seperate entities. You should research that part alittle more. I didn't note Goshin International anywhere in your research. Goshin Jutsu is run by Masters Fife, Capella, and Hicks, to name a few. These are the Masters I'm most familiar with, if you want information on Goshin Jutsu, I'm sure they'd be more then happy to discuss anything with you. They are all around the Erie area, so you should have no trouble finding them.

I'm going on vacation in about 10 minutes, so I have to cut this short (sorry), but since you didn't put in anything recent about Goshin or it's strong points, I guess I'll do that. I've done many styles of martial arts, check out the interests for some of them. Not all were for a long period of time, like Jeet Kune Do, which was only a month.

I can name things that I found wrong in all of them. Maybe it was just that particular school I went to, but there were major flaws in all of them. Like Jeet Kune Do, maybe I don't want to lead with my right side all the time? I don't know if all JKD schools are this way, but the one I tried was. I've never gone to a Shotokan school that actually had a kiai, they were always just a loud yell. I don't care if they are correct and you only should do it twice per kata, not 5 or 6, a kiai is MUCH more then a loud yell.

What I like about Goshin is that it there is no one perfect way to do everything, because we are all different, size, speed, etc, as is anyone that may try to attack us, and what works for me may not work the same way for you, and we both encouraged to find out our own way. I like Goshin because, well, I know for a fact that it'll work in the street. That's what I'm into martial arts for, not for the history or to say I'm better then anyone else, it's for the self defense.

I like Goshin because it's practical, there's no high flying flashy spin around 5 times do a handstand wax your car (all in the air mind you) and kick someone in the little toe on your way down type stuff I see in tournaments and in other schools. Yes, I know that was an exajuration, but not by a terrible amount.

When anyone from my school goes to a tournament, they bring back a trophy. It's not even a question of if. We don't go to many because, like I said, we're not tournament fighters. Most of them can't take a punch and think a flying ippon ken tsuke to the top of someone's head will win a fight. I've seen things like that win many points in tournaments. But then a lot of people are into martial arts for the sport value, not to learn to actually fight, and I'm going to respect their reasons.

My instructor tells us that a purple belt from his class is as good if not better then a lot of black belts from other systems, and from having other classes come to ours and ours go to theirs, we have found that this is indeed the case. Better kata, waza, kumite, in my experience, Goshin martial artists from my class are better then almost every other style of at least similiar rank.

There's not really anything else to say. You're more then welcome to come to my dojo and observe, I'm sure my Sensei won't mind, maybe you'll learn something about Goshin Justu. I know all Goshin classes aren't the same, but if you're going to try to insult them all, get ALL the facts please.


Ok, goodnight :)

Yoriki Yoroidoshi
16th September 2000, 06:46
I forgot to say this in my last message. I hope you take no offense to my disagreeing with you on any of what you typed. I'm still disagreeing, but I was not trying to offend you. If you take offense for my differing point of view, I apologize. I've run into quite a few people that get violent if you say anything contradictory to what they think.

Joseph Svinth
16th September 2000, 10:52
Let me preface this by saying that I know nothing about Goshin or Mr. Durant or his students. However, I have no trouble believing that some practitioners (to include senior practitioners) are best avoided and that other practitioners (to include senior practitioners) are people I would be proud to say I knew. Indeed, it would make them no different than the members of any other human organization of which I am aware.

Now, that said, I strongly urge people to question some of USMAF's assertions.

For example, Dennis Helm's history of judo in the United States is what many martial arts organizations want to believe is true. See, for example, http://www.completemartialarts.com/information/styles/american/americanhistory.htm , http://mawn.net/his_us.htm , http://www.usmaf.org/articles/JuJitsuP2.htm and http://www.usjujitsu.net/articles . This is the same information that appears in Martial Arts: Traditions, History, and People by John Corcoran and Emil Farkas (New York: Gallery Books, 1988), back issues of Judo Illustrated, and Helm's own 2000 YEARS: Jujitsu and Kodokan Judo (http://www.big-planet.org/authors.htm ).

The unfortunate part is that Helm's history is generally wrong.

For example, Helm writes that Graham Hill brought Yoshiaki Yamashita to Seattle in 1902. Yamashita's judo was too rough for Hill's children, so Yamashita went to Washington DC, where he taught judo to Theodore Roosevelt and the wife of a grandson of General Robert E. Lee. A couple letters to museums and a visit to a suburban public library (to say nothing of reading back issues of Aikido Journal or Journal of Asian Martial Arts) and you soon find that Sam (not Graham) Hill brought Yamashita to Seattle in October 1903 (not 1902), that Hill's son failed to take to judo not because it was too rough but because he was notoriously lazy (John E. Tuhy, Sam Hill: The Prince of Castle Nowhere [Beaverton, OR: Timber Press, 1983]), and that it was Mrs. Fude Yamashita who taught judo to various New York and Massachusetts society women, not one of whom was related to Robert E. Lee. ( http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltframe.htm , "Jiu-Jitsu for Women")

It gets worse, too, as Helm starts delving into more obscure topics. For example, in the Intermountain States Helm provides no details about the Utah judo tournaments of the late 1920s. In Seattle, Helm says that nothing is known about early Seattle Dojo history. Which is odd, as even a casual pass through the Seattle Times reveals an illustrated two-page article called "How Seattle's Sons of Old Japan Practice Jiu-Jitsu" in the March 10, 1907 edition that refutes most of what Helm writes. ( http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsframe.htm , Vol. II) And in California, Helm doesn't even remark the many accounts of Tokugoro Ito's judo that appeared in the Los Angeles Times between 1916 and 1920. (Among other things, Ito was the judo instructor at the Los Angeles Athletic Club, which was not a place many Japanese Americans were admitted in 1917. For details of the club's membership in that era, see http://www.laac.com/clubinfo/history/historymain3.shtml . Also check the club "Timeline," where you will note that between 1912 and 1960, the Los Angeles Athletic Club sponsored more Olympic medalists than had most countries. These people were real serious about their sports, thus they hired the best instructors available. And for judo in the US in 1917, that was Ito.) Finally, Helm fails to remark the extraordinary detail available in community newspapers such as Rafu Shimpo and Japanese-American Courier and national newspapers such as Japan Times and New York Times.

Now, if Helm was unaware of all this, then arguably the article's posting to the Internet would reflect nothing more than the USMAF trusting someone with a Ph.D. (Helm) to get his facts right. However. I e-mailed this information to Helm about a year ago and not only never heard back also have yet to see any changes.

And that is sad, as it reflects poorly on the organization.

Meanwhile, in the USMAF glossary, some usages are contentious. "Gi," for example, is not a Japanese word. (The Japanese word is keikogi, karategi, uwagi, etc., but not "gi", as the element gi is not a noun but a form of the verb kiru, meaning "to wear.") Some definitions are equally contentious. For example, according to the IJF, judo is not a martial art but a combative sport. Indeed, the IJF leadership is quite insistent about this. Partly this has to do with leftovers from the post-WWII era and partly it has to do with the Olympic movement. But anyway, while there has been a political movement for about 20 years now to return judo to being a martial art, it has not succeeded in influencing the IJF.

Anyway, while the USMAF provides a useful glossary, no doubt about it, its history is not always reliable and its definitions represent AN organization's interpretations of terms rather than ALL organization's interpretations of those terms.

So, to repeat myself, caution is advised.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 09-16-2000 at 05:00 AM]

Yoriki Yoroidoshi
19th September 2000, 06:52
"And still no one has step forward and attemped to refute my research,I find that interesting." - Ken Allgeier


I'm finding it interesting that as soon as someone does refute it, you stop posting on this thread. You're posting in the newer 2, but not this one, and my reply is several days old.

Also, what kind of image do the owners of this website hope their website portrays? I gave the URL to about a half dozen people I know, we've read many of the other messages here, and it seems that the majority of them are people saying "We hate this person" or "These people are all wrong" and "Everyone in this style are liars" and things like that.

One friend said, "Boy, what a bunch of hateful people," and I'm leaning toward agreeing with that.

Y'know, people in general don't like martial artists much. People fear them, they think that they are just looking for fights. When a martial artist uses what she/he knows to defend himself, chances are they get blaimed. THEY are into martial arts hence they like fighting hence they were looking for a fight.

I put down martial arts history on my resume, and I've actually have someone ask me at an interview if I was going to kill them if they didn't hire me, and the way he said it I really doubt he was joking. He didn't laugh, didn't look like he was even thinking of laughing. I have talked to women that say they would never date a martial artist because they don't like the violent aura that they carry around with them.

After reading things on this site I'd think all martial artists are spiteful and violent as well. Where's the tolerance? Where's the comraderie? And the one that was bothering me the most, where's the honor? Is there honor is saying that everyone whose style differs from your own is wrong? This isn't exactly a reply to Mr. Joseph Svinth, it's a general complaint about this website. As a martial artist I'm rather apalled that other martial artists would show this level of anger and hatred toward fellow martial artits.

I post this message only after being told pretty much the same thing by my 5 friends that looked here, all of which are in different styles then I. I only put that there in case anyone decided to post more insults about my dojo and said that of course they'd all say that because they're in the same dojo.

I probably won't be posting here again, and there's a few reasons.

One, this message will more then likely be deleted by a moderator who decides he hates me for saying the messages are hateful.

Two, I'm not sure I want to be associated with anyone that would try to bring even more intolerance to this world. It's not a bad place, but things like this only make it worse.

MarkF
19th September 2000, 09:16
Originally posted by Yoriki Yoroidoshi


I forgot to say this in my last message. I hope you take no offense to my disagreeing with you on any of what you typed. I'm still disagreeing, but I was not trying to offend you. If you take offense for my differing point of view, I apologize. I've run into quite a few people that get violent if you say anything contradictory to what they think.




You haven't offended anyone, but you have broken your word.
Your post will not be deleted, in fact many have read it, but so far no one is willing to discuss it.

With all that out of the way, this is what this group of people who gather here do. They discuss. It is a discussion board, a bulletin board, call it what you like. This board is a discussion of Japanese Martial arts, for the most part, but it is not limited to that. There is a member's lounge where things on people's minds other than the arts may wish to go and do so. Let this be your invitation. I don't know much about karatedo, even less about goshin jutsu kyo jujo karate. I do, however, know something about the USMAF so if you wish, a discussion could start there if you are not of a mind to discuss something which you had said you were finished discussing, but I digress.

Mr. Allgeier was not the first to bring up goshin, and its adherents have posted here, multiple times, and good discussion can be had. Possibly you have a chip on your shoulder and so may Mr. Algeier, I don't know, but I am afraid you are just as guilty of the faults you find on this board. You have all ready joined, why not continue? Discussions, no, arguments, such as this are healthy, and maybe some may learn a thing or two. Why leave it unanswered? You may want to start by disputing Mr. Allgeier's "facts" with those of your own, but so far, you have only said what your friends think of E-budo, but you still have not replied to a single fact put foward.

I don't moderate the karate forum, but I am sure the moderator would not mind if I invited you to do what you claim, but to date, have not.

Anyway, welcome to E-budo, in case no one has done so. This forum has a few rules and they can be found at the bottom of the page. Other than that, welcome aboard!:wave:

Sincerely,

Mark

Joseph Svinth
19th September 2000, 11:58
1. Noting that Dennis Helm has written a history of US judo that is not trustworthy is not hateful. Instead it is merely stating the obvious. (Definition of obvious: "easily discovered, seen, or understood.")

2. It is also obvious that the message I intended to convey was misunderstood. True conclusions require true supporting documentation. If the supporting documentation is shown to be false, it does not necessarily follow that the conclusion is false, but the argument remains unproved. Therefore, should one wish to rebut Mr. Allgeier's opening statements, one would do well to cite stronger sources.

3. As for what one can and cannot post on E-budo, this is not that other board where any disagreement with the moderator is instantly removed. On E-budo, the rules are:

Please sign your posts with your full name.
Profanity will not be tolerated.
Blatant commercial advertising is not allowed.
Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.



[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 09-19-2000 at 06:03 AM]

Eldorobo
19th September 2000, 13:22
Hello
Several people have stated that they would readly give copies of Doucuments to back and explain their posistion in these matter (copies of documents and tapes) to anyone who asked. Does that offer still stand because if it does I would like to receive them. How would you like to set it up for me to get them from you
Thank You

Ken Allgeier
19th September 2000, 23:12
Yoriki,


The premies of my research is to demonstrate that Jerry Durant's 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' is not a style of authentic ( or historical legitimate)Japanese or Okinawan Karate or Budo,such as Aiki Jujutsu,Nihon Jujutsu,Kobudo.The political difference between the different factions such as the 'goshin jutsu international' and the 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo association' and others are incongruous,since all these groups trace there linage back to Jerry Durant.

To ask qustion of indivdual such as Steve Capella or Jim Fife,would serve no purpose.Because they would just simply proagate the continueing myths and fabricating which have been in existence from the mid 1960's.In the paper written by Tom Green on the life of Jerry Durant,Steve Capella makes several historicaly erroneous remarks.For example,Capella states that"Jerry Durant was the first person given permission to teach Aiki outside of Japan".In one of the video tapes that I have Jim Fife in a interview on Cable TV from Texas,states the configuration of g.j.k.j. by saying that"in the olden days you had to profisient in five arts,they were,Karate,Aikijutsu,Jujutsu,Kobudo and another art" he does not name the fifth art.It seems Jim Fife is lacking of his understanding of history.When he say "in the olden days" which period of history id he refering to,the Heian,Kamakura,Edo,Meiji,Tasisho,Showa.Karate was not taught in Japan intill 1922.I believe that Sokaku Takeda the founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu ,did not start teaching intill around 1898.Which Ryu of Nihon Jujutsu is Fife refering and to which form of Kobudo is he refering to either Ryukyu of Nihon.


Yoriki I believe you are a member of the Penn State-Behrend M.A club ( Brown belt level?)inwhich several people within the club have seen the video tape of Jerry Durant and his Students.The tape also has the interview with Jerry Durant and examples of real Japanese & Okinawan Karate.I am wonder if you were morally insensed by the racial remarks and obscene,rude behavior of Jerry Durant.

Can you explain the vast discrepancy between the examples of real Japnese & Okinawan Karate and the extermely poor technical skills exhibited by Jerry Durant and his students on the tape.

Yoriki can answer one simple question,which of the following three is 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' based on or derived from which linage:SHURI-TE,NAHA-TE or TOMARI-TE.






ken allgeier

[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 09-19-2000 at 05:14 PM]

Ken Allgeier
19th September 2000, 23:21
To Joseph McDonald,



E-mail me your home mailing address and I will send you a copy of the tape and other documents at no cost to you.If anybody else wants a copy of the tape and documents I will mail them to you,also at no cost,just send me your home address.





Thank You,

ken allgeier

Bad Karma
22nd September 2000, 15:02
Hey there. I'm in class now so I'll be brief. I don't check here often, only because one of your friends told me to look here because I'd be interested by what you have to say. If you have this much free time that you want to write a book, be my guest. Freedom of speech and all. There are currently 2 BMAC sonkyu's in Erie. Both of us have very little time to spend on the net, and the BMAC has never been listed on the net to my knowledge, so where do you get off talking about us? Just curious. I know I don't know you, and unless Todd's telling you things about the BMAC...

I just want to ask one thing: is Ken Allgeier that godlike that he has never done anything that anyone else in this world would consider wrong in his life? Never lied, cheated on something, went 1 mile over the speed limit, farted downwind, anything at all? Until you are perfect, no faults, you have no right to judge anyone.

I don't know, maybe he is perfect and has the right to insult a man who's left this world. I'm not perfect, so I don't. Ok, back to class. Later.




J. Jacobovitz

Bad Karma
22nd September 2000, 15:59
OK, now that I have more time here, I'll type more. You'll probably say something about how you're sure I judge people too, and you'd be right. I'm not perfect, I judge people, but that doesn't mean I have the right too. I've lied at least once in my life, as have we all, so by my way of thinking, we're all a group of liars. Is one liar better then another?

Also, they said no profanity on this site. I've felt that disrespect for the dead is very profrane. They're dead, deal with it, let them rest.

You're asking your questions to the wrong people as well. I'd say that well more then 3/4ths of martial artists don't know much history of their martial art. From what I've heard about you, you don't understand why they wouldn't. Well, some people aren't into martial arts for the history, they're into it for the martial arts. No, these 2 aren't entirely connected. I can take martial arts and not study the history, and I can study the history and not take the martial arts.

You say you want answers but you also say you won't talk to the people that have any answers you seek. No matter what your reasons, that just, well, sounds rather odd to me.

Personally, I don't care about the history much. I gave up on Japanese culture after seeing how sadistic they naturally are as people. If you don't know what I mean, check into general Japanese history or even watch their TV shows. Comedy to them is wrapping towels that sat boiling in a pot of water for an hour around a sleeping guys head. The joys of having over 2000 channels on cable. The sights you see. Yay.

And now another class is in this lab, so I need to get going. So if you want answers, seek the people that have them, not the people that don't, and to be honest, I don't think there's any more then 5 people that are registered users to this site that know anything about Goshin first hand, and most of that knowledge is probably pretty weak at best.

What good is posting something on a discussion forum when there's no one to discuss it? I think you're doing this all in the wrong place if you are honestly seeking answers.

J. Jacobovitz

Joseph Svinth
22nd September 2000, 16:30
Generally, neither hagiography nor character assassination are ideal when writing biography. However, if the rules state that one can only say nice things about the deceased but one's ethics encourage one too be honest, then how would one describe executed serial killer Ted Bundy -- that he was a nice looking young man who had quite a way with the ladies? Likewise, how would we describe Idi Amin (a Ugandan despot notorious for eating human body parts)? Should we say that when young he was a decent boxer, but after he became President-for-Life one had to be careful about accepting his invitation to be part of a State dinner?

Offhand, I'd say that there are at least six people who post to this board who claim first-hand knowledge of Goshin. Based on what they have posted, I would not hesitate in recommending that people interested in martial art training consider joining classes taught by Mr. McClafferty or the Eastons. However, I would recommend caution before recommending several other instructors mentioned or alluded to.

Oh -- regarding the Japanese being despicable, I assume the reference is solely to living people? After all, one mustn't speak ill of the dead.

cxh418
23rd September 2000, 04:52
I am currently a junior in college and I have been training in Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo under Behrend Martial Arts Club for about two and a half years. I personally don't know Kyoto Durant at all and I could care less where had he trained. All I know is the fact that this style is the best that I have seen so far in the past six years of my martial arts training. All of my Goshin instructors are the greatest group of people that I have met and they have trained me with their hearts and souls. They have NEVER ASKED for anything in return except our respect and diligence in training. They teach karate for the love of the art and no one will disrespect them.

Sincerely,
C. Hongfa
P.S. Any questions about our Goshin Jutsu please e-mail me at cxh418@psu.edu

Ken Allgeier
23rd September 2000, 08:56
I would like to state,that I have e-mailed my research on 'goshin jutsu' to about 30 differnt indivduals and webpages.I believe it is safe to say that the followers of Jerry Durant's goshin jutsu do have knowledge of this discussion in a public forum.


I believe that the members of the P.S.B.M.A.C. and other do not understand, is that I was once(unfortunatly) a member of the 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo'and once believed in this system and recived a ,quote-unquote black belt in it.I was vary lucky in the fact that I went to Penn State Unv,main campus and there I joined the Penn State Aikido club ( Shin Shin Toitsu) and soon realized that the Aiki that was taught within the rubric of 'g.j.k.j' was techniclly wrong.One of the Aikido club members ( a graduate student)knew other graduate student from Japan who was a sandan from the Gojukai.When I saw Otake-san training,I can honestly say that was first time I saw what REAL KARATE looked like.I had never seen anybody before who techique was so fast,powerful and clean,my jaw almost literally hit the floor.Throughout the years before this I had seen all the top goshin jutsu people,Durant,Capella,Bohac,Portfillo,Fife,Barton,Medura,ect and none of them could compare to what I witnessed that day at the Penn State gym.I asked( begged is a better word) Otake-San if he could teach me and he agreed,again I can honestly say that I learned more about REAL KARATE in a few weeks,than all the years I spent in goshin jutsu kyo jujo.The reason is that I was learning from a real source and not something made up by a novice in his backyard.Otake-San told me that I was not a black belt according to Japanese standards which I did not want to hear,considering I had a room full of trophys,but it was the inevitable truth.When I returned to Erie,Pa again I was lucky that there was a instructor from the I.S.K.F-J.K.A teaching and I had so start from the bottom and work my way back up .In my opinion I have never seen anybody in Durant's goshin jutsu was technical vary good,they lack strong kihon and do not have or understand body dynamics.



In my opinion the 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' is vary much a cult or at least cult like.In the last few years I have shown several people in the Erie,Pa area the two articles by Wayne Muromoto: "Are you in a martial arts cult" and "Real of Fake? is your martial arts school legitimate? , plus Don Cunningham's articale " Dangers of self-proclaimed masters".The all agree that these articles are the essence of 'g.j.k.j.'.


The followers of Jerry Durant have made him into a historical figure inwhich they ( and Durant himself)had stated many claims about his background.In this context,it is only fair to investigate such claims and to do historical research in the maner as other figures of history such as Abraham Lincoln,Stalin,Gandhi.When a historian states that George Washington did not cut down the cherry tree,does that make him anti-American?The goshin jutsu kyo jujo system has the hallmarks of a cult.


1. A belief in the false claims of a leader

2. The group becomes vary defensive when ask question about the groups background.

3. The group will or can not give evidence to support its claims and will instead attack those who ask question or label them as idiots for doing so.

4. The members of the group claim to be ignorant of facts and of history,outside of the control of the group.



As members of the Penn State-Behrend Campus MA club can you explain why it is necessary to have rank testing out in the woods inwhich the public is not allowed to watch?If you are not interested in history,which is a part of all traditional Budo ,Then why claim that 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo' is a authentic form of Karate,Aiki Jujutsu & Kobudo?If you do not like Japanese culture,then do not use Japanese nomenclature.Can you refute any part of my research point by point?And last can you tell which linage from Okinawan is " g j k j " drived from,either-- Shuri-Te,Naha-Te or Tomari-Te.



_____________________________________


Yes,Virginia,there is a Santa Claus


_______________________________________






ken allgeier





[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 09-23-2000 at 02:59 AM]

MarkF
24th September 2000, 09:44
Hi, BK,
Welcome to E-budo! You've been here before, haven't you, only BHWC of year, 2000 (Before the Hard Drive Crash)?

Anyway, Long time no post. If you feel offended, hammer back!:smash::wave:

Mark

AKA Lee82mark4

Ken Allgeier
25th September 2000, 15:05
Mark,

There is a "Bad Karma" on 'Budoseek',it is someone from Kentucky who is also a moderator for ' Budoseek'.The " Bad Karma" on this thread is a college at Penn State Behrend campus,same name two different people.






ken allgeier

Jesse
27th September 2000, 01:54
They always seem to attack the messenger but never the message. Lots of "Ken bashing" but know one has been able to refute his research. I get the same here in Erie Pa when ever I discuss Kens research. Which I think proves his point that goshin jutsu kyu juju is not Karate,and that anyone claiming it to be so is either lying or misinformed. Many here in Erie pa seem to be under the impression (from Durants influence) that you can make up a bunch of kata out of thin air and call it Karate Do. Is it a eccletic fighting system ? Yes. Is it Karate? No.


Jesse

MarkF
27th September 2000, 10:41
Hey, Ken,
Thank you for advising me on who is who in the land of Bad Kharma. To tell you the truth, the one I know at Budoseek is named "Tony," so I was wondering, but since he indicated not coming here much, but had in the past, I thought I would be sure to invite him. He also does jujutsu so that was another clue. Thanks for doing my job for me, as I could easily gone there and asked.

Sincerely,
Mark

Cocteau
11th October 2000, 00:46
http://www.duffeeskarate.com
I think this will be useful to the readers of this thread, since many here may not have had the opporunity to see practicioners of Jerry Durant's goshin jutsu in action. It is always hard to discuss something you haven't seen.
If you go to the video / arts festival section, there are clips of goshin jutsu practicioners doing katas and self defense techniques at a demo. It's not as clear as some other videotape I have seen (or in the flesh, which I have also seen, many times) but it is quick to obtain.
Pop some corn, as there is a good bit of footage there.
Todd Pierce

Shawn Falchetti
16th October 2000, 16:35
I have been a martial artist for 12 years now, and it has been a fundamental part of my life. There are all of the elements common to any martial art: the discipline, the respect, the joy of teaching and learning, the pride in seeing other students grow, the hard work and the sweat, the moments of frustration and the moments of revelation. These things comprise much of what the martial arts represent to me, and they are unrelated to style. I had the opportunity during college to head our martial arts club, and, as a neutral ground where martial artists of very different styles could exchange knowledge and ask questions, it was remarkable. I recall once having a black belt in a Korean style and another in a Japanese style both teach me one of their basic forms, and the three of us discovered that the weight distribution on our backstances was very different. Another time a local Kung Fu school offered free classes at my gym, and I found that those techniques and stances were often 180 degrees opposite many of mine. Yet both were effective – two different and opposite approaches which produced the same result.

Like many, I knew little of the differences in styles when I joined. My initial selection involved leafing through the yellow pages, sitting in on classes from the different schools available, and choosing the one which seemed the best fit. Whether it was a true Okinawan martial art or a martial art with Okinawan elements was insignificant. And now, 12 years later? Still insignificant. The pedigree may look nice hung on the dojo wall, but I am more interested in who is teaching me now, and what he is teaching me. It is analogous to rank certificates. We have all encountered black belts with only 1 year of training, as well as 21 year old masters. Yet still entire styles get judged on pedigrees and ranks.

I have studied Goshin Jutsu at a medium sized school in northeastern Pennsylvania since 1988. I did not meet Master Durant before he died in 1991, and cannot offer any data about him or the history. I can, however, offer my opinions about Goshin Jutsu. I’ve seen my share of competition over the years, and I’ve seen Goshin Jutsu students excel in tournaments, especially in kata. It seems hard for me to believe that Goshin forms could be as poor as described yet consistently be rated highly by non-Goshin judges in competition. Is the contention that American judges of all styles are incapable of judging form? As for hip rotation, it is fundamental. I’ve seen and felt the difference between techniques with and without hip rotation; it’s something taught from day one and refined constantly as you progress. I understand the impact which properly relaxing and tightening has on a technique such as a punch. To say that there is no hip rotation in Goshin Jutsu is absurd to me.

It seems to me that Mr. Allgeier had some unfortunate experiences with a particular instructor, left Goshin Jutsu, found another style, and that style was a fit for what he wanted from a martial art. The techniques for him in Shotokan clicked and made sense. In my case the techniques of Kung Fu did not click, personally, but I don’t think that has anything to do with their validity. Kung Fu was not my fit. One of my best friends has studied Kung Fu for 15 years now, and it does click for him. Having sparred with each other, discussed techniques and forms, we’ve both developed a respect for the validity of the other’s style.

I have no objection to Mr. Allgeier’s inquiry into the history of Goshin Jutsu. I think an objective discussion is healthy. Certainly it would be interesting to prove whether it has Okinawan origins or is a martial art influenced by Okinawan techniques. And interesting is as far as it would go for me – I have already stated my feelings about pedigrees. But what I do find objectionable is that this has been extrapolated to ‘all Goshin Jutsu schools and teachers are a cult and a sham’. It also seems to me that all the discussion around the technical inferiority of GJ techniques is no more than a variation of the too-often spoken phrase ‘my style is better than yours because…’

As always, our classes are open for anyone who has interest or questions. I recommend those with questions actually watch a class before making up their minds based simply on what they read on a website. I can recommend some excellent GJ schools. The school where I study has a website at http://duffeeskarate.com. A previous post has mentioned the RealVideo clips located there from one of our summer demonstrations. Although the clips are available, I still encourage watching a class and talking with students for a more complete picture. After all, it’s not as if breaking flaming boards is part of a normal karate class. Demos are intended to be entertaining and attract interest – not teach the subtleties of the martial art.

I wish Mr. Allgeier continued luck with his new style – it sounds like he has found his fit, and I encourage others with questions to speak to some GJ practitioners to have a more balanced picture of what the style represents.

Sincerely,
Shawn Falchetti

Jesse
18th October 2000, 02:59
The issue has been wether or not goshin jutsu is a legitimate style of Karate-Do. It is not. However some schools do have a cult mentality in the system. To me a piece of tin represents nothing to me. I feel that many Karate-do masters who had concerns about tournaments where right. I think "open tournaments" have watered down Karate in the United States. I have studied goshin jutsu for over many years. I have studied under Jerry Durant as well before his passing. Most most goshin schools have three areas of in instruction,Durants made up Kata's,self defense techniques and tournement fighting. All three are different from the others in technique and form. I have never seen a Goshin stylist win a fighting match from using techniques from Durants kata. The self defense techniques taught also do not use Durants kata as a basis. Most self defense techniques taught at goshin schools are similar to military type hand to hand combat drills. Do these techniques work? Yes in some situations they will. Can a goshin student fight on the street? Yes! But sadly there is much more to Karate-Do than that. Theres also more to Karate than
playing tag in a tournament ring for points.

Jesse








Jesse

Kevin Meisner
27th October 2001, 06:56
Jesse - what years did you study with Jerry Durante?

Kevin Meisner

Sochin
28th October 2001, 17:05
Welcome t this place Jesse,

I hope you continue here but

let me refresh the rules for you (found atthe bottom of each page):

Forum Rules:
Please sign your posts with your full name.
Profanity will not be tolerated.
Blatant commercial advertising is not allowed.
Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.

Thanks,

JAMJTX
6th December 2002, 01:13
"Mr. Fletcher told me the story of Richard Baillargeon, who opened up the United States branch of the Seishin-Kai in the 1960's for anyone willing to pay to join. This is in contrast to the fact that the Seishin-Kai Karate Union was formed for the Motobu-Ha Shito-Ryu only. As Mr. Fletcher said to me that Baillargeon's actions were along the lines of "send me money and I'll send you rank." And, Mr. Fletcher specified that "claims and certificates like Durant's are a dime-a-dozen," because or Baillargeon's policies."

This is absolute nonsense.
Mr. Baillargeon did NOT open up Seishin Kai to "anyone that wanted to pay" He did leave the Seishin Kai in 1974 to establish the National Karate and Jiu Jitsu Union as a non-profit group. To join NKJU one would have to provide documentation of ranks that they claimed.
Certificate fees and other costs were quite low and training was quite harsh. Many stayed away because the training was too hard.
Mr. Baillargeon turned away many who wanted to join NKJU but had doubtful documentation or non at all.

Jim Mc Coy

JAMJTX
6th December 2002, 01:24
"Baillargeon returned to the United States, he already had a quantity of pre-made rank certificates"
Unfortunately, this is one of Shogo Kuniba's legacies. He gave too many people "pre printed rank certificates" - actually he sold them.
So although some may have them - they may not have come from Baillargeon.

As for Mr. Fletcher - he teaches the later "Goshin Do" versions of Kuniba's Martial Art - which was watered down for mass marketing.
If you want to know about Kuniba's teaching seek some of those who trained with him prior to his relocation to the U.S.
I sought out Mr. Fletcher once and learned 2 things: He charges way too much money and he did not learn the Goshin Budo Kata originally created by Shogo Kuniba. I did not feel that it was worth the exorbitant amount of money that he wanted for a 4 hour seminar. There are more knowledgeble people who charge a lot less.
For him to charge Mr. Baillargeon with crass commercialism is ridiculous.

Jim Mc Coy

JAMJTX
9th December 2002, 18:40
Since I am sick and tired of e-budo (the owner and moderators) not this topic, I will not be posting to e-budo anymore.
If anyone wishes to communicate with me re: this thread please e-mail me.

Jim Mc Coy

drwho
19th July 2003, 23:20
I have read a number of opinions on this site cocerning the authencity of the Goshin Style. I have studied Goshin Jutus Ryu for over 8 years and currently hold the rank of Nidan I studied with Master Bachman, Master Neufer, and Grand Master Harsch nad have certificates of rank to support this statment. I have also studied Shaolin White Crane and Shaolin White Dragon Kung FU. I have also been in clnics with Honshi Capella and the late Grand Master Durante's Erie Dojo. I also have had opportunities to speak with Jerry's son Master Durante.
I believe that the aforementioned gives me some crediability in discussing the Goshin tradition. There have been a number of critiques made about the Okinawan roots of Goshin Jutsu and indeed an examination of the literature on the History of Martal Arts makes no direct reference to the existence of such a style. However the roots of Okinawan Karate are deeply steeped in the White Crane School of Shaolin Kungfu. Dr. Yang has delineated the history of White Crane and in his text enititled Shaolin White Crane: The roots of Okinawan Karate. It is clear also that Yang Still Tai Chi has also played a role in the development of White Crane and ergo on Okinawan Karate. If one carefully examines the original Cappella Manual on Goshin Jutsu and goes beyond the stanadard Katas of Kishu, Motasaki, Godan, and rather inspects Katachi Chugokio Ta Do, Ichi Ni Hibi and Shaolin Kung Fu Rei one can see the incorporation of crane technique, sochin dachi style, Shin Na, Abuki breathing, and the use of Hands of Lohan. Furthemore, the structures of the Katas and the text on tidal blood flow and Jin uses Chinese kanji. Snake style and crane shaking jin also appear in this section.
The bone breaking techniques incorporated in Goshin appear also in Shaolin white Crain as do the style of the "waza". Aikido form also seem to have been added into belt requirements which are not specified clearly in the Capella Text. Shinto Ryu, Ishin Ryu and Goren Ryu traditions were adapted from Shaolin techniques to fit the particularly terrain and morphology of the Okinawan people residing in these areas. It would appear that Goshin Jutsu techniques by inspection did not develop directly from Okinawan forms nor do they appear to be purely military combat techniques. It is most likely the early Kata follow the Pinnan Katas taught in Okinawan Grammar Schools as exerecise drills and that the later Katas were incorporated from Shaolin Kung Fu and not from Shotokan Japanese Styles or Shinto or Ishin Ryu. The use of the JuJi style and the movement to cirular movements from linear hip thrust and strikes also reflects the influence of White Crane. The imortance of Kiba Dachi and Sochin Stance also point to Shaolin influences.
In summary I contend that the goshin style was not confabulated by Grand Master Durant as some have suggested but rathe reflect direct training in the White Crane Style and in the use of Shaolin breathing and hand strike techniques most likely Shaolin Long Fist. Somewhere the roots of these styles were mixed and juxtaposed with does found in traditional Okinaw

drwho
19th July 2003, 23:23
I have read a number of opinions on this site cocerning the authencity of the Goshin Style. I have studied Goshin Jutus Ryu for over 8 years and currently hold the rank of Nidan I studied with Master Bachman, Master Neufer, and Grand Master Harsch nad have certificates of rank to support this statment. I have also studied Shaolin White Crane and Shaolin White Dragon Kung FU. I have also been in clnics with Honshi Capella and the late Grand Master Durante's Erie Dojo. I also have had opportunities to speak with Jerry's son Master Durante.
I believe that the aforementioned gives me some crediability in discussing the Goshin tradition. There have been a number of critiques made about the Okinawan roots of Goshin Jutsu and indeed an examination of the literature on the History of Martal Arts makes no direct reference to the existence of such a style. However the roots of Okinawan Karate are deeply steeped in the White Crane School of Shaolin Kungfu. Dr. Yang has delineated the history of White Crane and in his text enititled Shaolin White Crane: The roots of Okinawan Karate. It is clear also that Yang Still Tai Chi has also played a role in the development of White Crane and ergo on Okinawan Karate. If one carefully examines the original Cappella Manual on Goshin
Jutsu and goes beyond the stanadard Katas of Kishu, Motasaki, Godan, and rather inspects Katachi Chugokio Ta Do, Ichi Ni Hibi and Shaolin Kung Fu Rei one can see the incorporation of crane technique, sochin dachi style, Shin Na, Abuki breathing, and the use of Hands of Lohan. Furthemore, the structures of the Katas and the text on tidal blood flow and Jin uses Chinese kanji. Snake style and crane shaking jin also appear in this section.
The bone breaking techniques incorporated in Goshin appear also in Shaolin white Crain as do the style of the "waza". Aikido form also seem to have been added into belt requirements which are not specified clearly in the Capella Text. Shinto Ryu, Ishin Ryu and Goren Ryu traditions were adapted from Shaolin techniques to fit the particularly terrain and morphology of the Okinawan people residing in these areas. It would appear that Goshin Jutsu techniques by inspection did not develop directly from Okinawan forms nor do they appear to be purely military combat techniques. It is most likely the early Kata follow the Pinnan Katas taught in Okinawan Grammar Schools as exerecise drills and that the later Katas were incorporated from Shaolin Kung Fu and not from Shotokan Japanese Styles or Shinto or Ishin Ryu. The use of the JuJi style and the movement to cirular movements from linear hip thrust and strikes also reflects the influence of White Crane. The imortance of Kiba Dachi and Sochin Stance also point to Shaolin influences.
In summary I contend that the goshin style was not confabulated by Grand Master Durant as some have suggested but rathe reflect direct training in the White Crane Style and in the use of Shaolin breathing and hand strike techniques most likely Shaolin Long Fist. Somewhere the roots of these styles were mixed and juxtaposed with does found in traditional Okinawan Karate which would include the use of thrusting hips and take down techiques. THe use of whipping jin is almost completely absent with exception of belt requirements which appear to incorporate the Tobi flyining style and spinning motions characteristic of Southern Crane.
Dr. who

JAMJTX
23rd July 2003, 04:38
Let's just start with the first error. Goshin Jutsu simply means "self defense art" it is not a style of martial art. It is unlikely that you will find any Japanese writing on martial arts that does not contain the phrase "goshin jutsu" - just as unlikely as you would be to find an English language writing on martial arts that does not contain the phrase "self defense". Even in Jigaro Kano's books you will find mention of "Goshin Jutsu no Kata". Again this is just a demonstration of how the martial art of Judo can be used as a Goshin Jutsu/Self Defense Art.
The use of the phrase "Goshin Jutsu" as the name of a martial art style really just continues to show a misunderstanding of the Japanese language - which is just another area where Durant fell way short.
In the 1960's Shogo Kuniba popluarized the term "Goshin Budo" by using the term to describe his unique combination of Aikido, Judo and Karate and his unique bunkai of the Motobuha Shito Ryu Kata. He used the phrase "Goshin Budo" to mean "applied self defense". Several of his students continued to apply the term "Goshin Budo" as the name of a style of Jujitsu. I myself did that for a long time. But it is incorrect.
Throughtout the 1960's and 70's Kuniba's organization (Seishin Kai) grew very large and was one of the most prestigous Karate organizations in the world. The U.S. representative for the Kai was Richard Baillargeon. Some time during this period, Durant either joined or tried to join the Seishin Kai. It is not possible at this time to find out if he was ever actually a member. Some have told me that they "heard of him" but I can not find anyone who ever met him. But for a long time, Durant and his followers claimed that Durant was a student of Shogo Kuniba. That is a lie.
It was also claimed on one web site that Durant was the northeast rep for the Seishin Kai, having been nominated by Richard Baillargeon. That is also a lie. Durant also at one time claimed to have been promoted to Godan by Richard Baillargeon. That is also a lie. A certificate he claimed was signed by Bailalrgeon has been shown to be a fake.
Now if Durant truly did learn this ancient system of self defense simply called "self defense art" then why did he try so hard to convince people that he trained with Kuniba and had been promoted by Baillargeon? Had he had any legit claim to a legit art, he would not have given a flip about either one. But he was very eager to find a quick way to affiliate with legit people and get certificates from them. The man was liar and a fraud.
I would assume that Durant heard of Kuniba and his "goshin budo" then set out to make some affiliation with him. Then when he could not earn legitimate rank he went out on his own, created this ridiculous history then called his "art" Goshin Jutsu to make it sound like a more combative version of Kuniba's Goshin Budo. Only like I said, there was no art called "Goshin Budo" just as there is no art called "Goshin Jutsu".

Jim Mc Coy

Aiki-Baba
8th October 2003, 18:11
I wasn't going to say a word about any of this. I have had my own experiences with "historical lineages" and all in all it doesn't change what I was taught. (not Goshin) I live very close to Master Bragues school know many of his students and have had words with some of them about the practicality of the techniques. It is a "modern method of self-defense". Never during any of my discussions with Yudansha from Brague's school have I ever heard mention of Aiki. I assure you there is a reason for that.

The students do seem to have a strange reverence or at least a zeal for their system and their school. I suppose that isn't all bad.

What has promted me to write were the video clips I saw. They are/were awful. The Self-Defense techniques might work on a drunk pre-schooler and the group kata you would think should at least look as if everyone was doing the same Kata.

I don't care what martial art somebody trains in, they all have strong and weak facets, BUT it should at least be realistic and effective. A room full of trophies means very little when faced on the street or confronted in your home. Lite contact to the head will always get you hit back.:D

Peace to you all;

Aaron Nowell

John Lindsey
8th October 2003, 20:07
One, this message will more then likely be deleted by a moderator who decides he hates me for saying the messages are hateful.

Not at all. You might get banned for not signing your posts with your real name though...

I get a chuckle any time someone mentions that all do here is trash people, etc. Obviously anyone making that claim has not taken the time to read the forums. There are tons of great discussions here if you take the time to read them.

E-budo is about budo. Durant's goshinjutsu appears not to be a Japanese martial art. It is Pseudo Budo. It may be a great martial art today, but their claims are highly suspect. That is why this thread is titled: HISTORY of goshin jutsu.

bob.doss
20th December 2004, 22:04
At the risk of re-opening this old thread, I've decided to post this belated reply because I just can't help myself.

For about 3 years in the 70's, I took Karate lessons in Erie, PA from Artis Simmons, a man for whom I have the highest respect.

Though not a serious student, I was proud to be associated with Artis Simmons.

During that time, I was witness to Jerry Durant's conduct at multiple tournaments in the area. In my judgment, he behaved as a testosterone-driven bully and a dirty street fighter, and encouraged/exhorted his students to do the same.

I was NOT proud to be associated with Jerry Durant, if only through a common interest in martial arts.

Whether Jerry Durant was taught goshun jutsu by a master in Okinawa, or invented it in his garage in America seems nearly meaningless to me. What DOES matter to me is that he taught it as a mean-spirited, “self-offense” method, in stark contrast to the “violence as a last resort” philosophy that many people associate with Japanese Karate.

In my opinion, today’s goshun jutsu students can claim a Japanese heritage only to the degree that their teachings honor the fundamental precepts of all Karate styles, while eschewing the “win at any cost” street fighting mentality that made Jerry Durant and his students infamous.

How you rotate your hips does not validate your style – how you live your life does.

Bob Doss

MKERN
7th October 2005, 03:39
I can validate a bit of what Ken has said. I studied at the same schools in the same timeframe as Ken, in the early seventies, for 3 years. Ken, Dale Eller, and I sometimes practiced together in 1973. We studued under Jerry Durrant.

The things I can validate:
--Jerry Durrant was a talker, a teller of stories by nature. I do not know which were true, but some did contradict each other.
--Ken was an avid student of Kata, devouring every form available. Jerry commented on looking up new forms just for Ken.
--I remember a tournament in Canada. (Ken performed those forms and was judged rater well.) Our Dojo was viewed rather oddly, I recall.
--Jerry Durrant often commented that belts had no meaning. I recall him mentioning he had only a white and a black belt on one occasion.
--Others usually taught. Jerry usually did not. Many of them clearly knew a thing or two. Jerry was largely an administrator, a salesman.
--Penn State had a darned good free Karate school in the Gym. I was there a few years after Ken, having been in the USAF (ironicly in Okinawa for some of it) before college. I did not study there, but observed it.

Some things I recall somewhat contradict Ken's story:
--I remember learning hip rotation. Perhaps Ken was snoozing.
--I do recall Ken being a rather poor student of sparring, preferring Kata. His form was, at the time, somewhat ineffectual in contests. I am sure he has a strong mastery now, but I don't think the whole package at the GJKJ dojo worked well for Ken as a student at the time. From Ken's standpoint the training might have seemed completely invalid. Perhaps ken himself is a factor in his view of GJKJ.



However: Ken is exactly who he says he is- or rather was who he says he was.

What relevence all this history may have on the current crop of GJKJ instructors is unclear to me. Many of these seem to have studied more than one art. Certainly these sincere folks exceed the bar of the "sport karate" schools who turn out black belts in a year.

I remain certain that the Jerry Durrant story is not yet fully told.

(As for all the old Goshin Jitsu Kyo Ju Jo crowd, I wish everyone well. Esp. Matty and his sister. These are good, sincere people as I recall- not at all shuksters fleecing the unsuspecting- barring moose of course.)

Matthew Ford Kern, EE

MKERN
7th October 2005, 13:16
I might add that Jerry Durrant did directly teach the weekend and off-day practice sessions, in wich ju-jitsu was applied. These ju-jitsu techniques seemed to match books I had bought on the subject. They seemed quite effective. They were combined with techniques eclecticly collected from other arts.

I recall a conversation with Ken when we were students in which we talked about Ken not comming to those often, if at all.

(Not over commiting the hips in basic techniques was a topic discussed in regard to vulnerability to ju jitsu techniues. Hip rotation was not universal. It was applied to certain techniques.)

Goshin Jitsu was about locks, breaks, throws combined with some few bits of karate that would work "on the street". The rest of formal karate, techniques deemed ineffective, were taught for the sake of expectations and tournaments. Jerry Durrant considered himself a street fighter.

I recall discussing specific techniques with black belts from various arts, comparing effectiveness. Some of what I learned as a child was received with enthusiasm by those I spoke to. I have seen some of it used by other masters in demos. None of that was the 3 day per week karate training.

I hope this may help to clarify the origins Ken speaks of. In brief, GJKJ was neither ineffective nor simply formal karate with a strong historical lineage. As for my opinion: Jerry Durrant was NOT free of formal training in Ju Jitsu and hand-to-hand combat. That would be training other than the bar fights Jerry spoke of refining his techniques with.

It seems to me Jerry was a salesman of karate, the one brand of martial art people bought in small markets like Erie in ehe 1960-1980 era--- but he also had posession of extensive formal ju jitsu or hand-to-hand training.

I suggest somebody ask Matt Durrant. I am sure he knows the real story.

Matthew Ford Kern

Alec
10th January 2006, 17:18
I realize that there are many postings on this subject, unfortunately the amount of time I spend on a computer is limited. So I have one question.
In a nutshell, is Goshin Jutsu a real art?
Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer my question.

Martin H
11th January 2006, 01:00
That Goshin jutsu was formed by a person with very limited martialart knowledge but a gift for talking, who liked to tell tall tales, behaved as a bully and who lied about his background and affiliations (including forging grade diplomas), seems to be the concensus here and on most other forums.
It may have developed somewhat over time, gotten a few victories in tournaments and even admitted that some of the founders claims were false, but most who has had contact with it and is a current member apparently leave with a bad taste in their mouth.

What realy is a art? there is realy no good definition one way or another.
You cannot realy say that anything is not a "real" art even if it was created yesterday, but even if it is a art it does not mean it is worth practicing or have a genuine lineage.

Most regulars would tell you to stay way clear of it and lable it as a McDojo style (=little skill of value to be taught, but charging lots of money and mouthing a lot of BS).
Most of those regulars have _lots_ of experience, and are generaly worth listening to.

MikeWilliams
11th January 2006, 11:59
I realize that there are many postings on this subject, unfortunately the amount of time I spend on a computer is limited. So I have one question.
In a nutshell, is Goshin Jutsu a real art?
Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer my question.

Also bear in mind that there are plenty of schools that use the term Goshin jutsu that are entirely unrelated to Durant. Not forgetting Kodokan goshin Jutsu, which is the self defence portion of the judo syllabus.

I would hazard a guess that Durant's goshin jutsu is limited to the US, and if you see the term elsewhere, it's likely to be something else.

Ken Allgeier
11th January 2006, 18:18
I find the current situation for goshin jutsu/Durant controversy to be quite ironic. Reading through this post there is a controversy brewing over the legitimacy of rank. One of the current grandmasters/Capela (LOL) of Durant’s goshin are complaining about other goshin masters( LOL) claiming senior rank, and the silly title of “master” considering there poor technical skills.

_______________________________________________________________________

“http://www.defendwithhonor.com/news.html
12.21.05
Goshin Jutsu Dai Soke Speaks Out on Goshin Jutsu Ranks and Promotions
In respones to Mr. Rex Aikens recent claims to a promotion to 9th Dan Goshin Jutsu Karate, Goshin Jutsu Dai Soke, Mr. Matt Durant made the follwoing statement:
Just to make sure that everyone knows what my personal opinion is on this "promotion", I decided to make the following statement. I agree 100% with Mr. Capela's assessment of the situation.

I know there are several factions of Goshin Jutsu out there. The first being Mr. Capela's faction, which of course I, along with any other true Goshinist will recognize. That recognition also would include Mr. Capela's ranking (10th Dan). There are many other claims, but I know for fact that Mr. Capela was the senior student under Grand Master Durant.

The second faction was the Union City faction, which was left to Mr. Fife. I recognize this faction, and Mr. Fife’s ranking. I was present and a witness to this faction being left to Mr. Fife, and his ranking from Grand Master Durant.

Lastly, was the faction that I was left. This faction was meant to be completely separate from the others. It was "Goshin Jutsu International." When I was first left the faction as many know, I stepped aside from this and told Mr.Capela that he could take over International if he so wished. I have since restructured it as the "Goshin Jutsu Ryu Budo Kai". I have and intend to keep this faction seperate, while still maintaining contact with Mr.Capela and his faction. I DO NOT claim the title of Grand Master. I still use the title of "Dai Soke" or second generation of the Founder. I claim this title only so that it keeps me away from all the politics of ranking.

There are several other factions where others have claimed 10th Dans, or the title of Grand Master. I recognize none of these as legitimate. If they want to claim those titles and ranks, then they should at least quit claiming it in Goshin Jutsu. Do like so many others have done and call it something else. You cannot give yourself rank in Goshin Jutsu when there are seniors above you. Your students cannot promote you to any rank when there are seniors still active. Call what you do anything you want, just not Goshin Jutsu. It's no wonder there is so much controversy over Goshin Jutsu. As long as people do things like this, it gives all the pain in the butt "critics" more ammunition. Use your head.

Goshin Jutsu Dai Soke

Matt Durant
12.2.05
Goshin Jutsu Promotion?
It has been reported on several Goshin Jutsu Karate web sites (site 1) (site 2) (site 3) that Master Rex Aikens of Spartansburg, PA has been promoted to the rank of Kudan (9th degree black belt) and has assumed the title of Grand Master.

When informed of this promotion, Grand Master Stephen Capela, Judan (10th degree blackbelt) Goshin Jutsu Karate, issued the following statement.

“This is a self promotion and is not recognized by the Goshin Jutsu Karate Yudan Shakai. Mister Aikens's students cannot promote him. His highest ranking student is a Yodan (4th degree blackbelt). There are many much higher ranking students in the Goshin Jutsu Karate system that do not recognize Mister Aikens as a 9th dan.”
_______________________________________________________________________



The irony comes from the fact that Jerry Durant promoted/gave himself a blackbelt with only a few months of any formal training, life funning it’s it! Also it was Jerry Durant’s students who promoted him to 10th dan (http://user.mc.net/~hugh/Durant.htm) Now Matt Durant is claiming to be a “ dai soke’, if memory serves me right, there is no such phrase in the Japanese language as ‘ dai soke’ , the correct term is ‘soke dai’, meaning:

http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Defs2.html

“But in this case, the word dai in Japanese is not the character for "big," but "in place of." Thus, a shihandai or soke-dai or soke-dairi means "someone who teaches in temporary place of" the main instructor, for certain reasons, such as the incapacity of the soke due to injuries or illnesses, etc.”


Theses goshin folks claim of legitimacy is as comical as the supposed claims to traditional Budo and sense of having any kind of technical skill. Clueless people will always follow the road of stupidly no matter where it leads.

HondaRed
25th April 2006, 15:02
I recently started learning Goshin Jitsu. My Sensei was taught by Jerry Durant. Am I wasting my time and money learning this style, or lack there of ? There is a Hapkido Tae Kwon Do school in my area, would that be in my better interest. I don't mind learning Goshin Jitsu as long as it's effective, but if i'm not getting power from my strikes and things of that nature I don't want to continue. Thanks in advance.

Jock Armstrong
25th April 2006, 15:25
You may be wasting your time if you don't sign your real name on all of your posts. Many people won't answer till you follow the rules of the forum.

In my opinion, after reading the history of Durant and his made up style; wasting time- if you want training in a trad Jap/Okinawan art, yes. If you want training in a good freestyle karate system- yes. People who start with a lie rarely do much good with it.

dragon0465
21st February 2011, 23:23
For those of you that have tapes, and certificates and proof, is there a way that I can get a copy please, and/or post the certificates on this website or a website of your choice so that the proof is out there and there can be little dispute. Thank you.