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Ellis Amdur
10th September 2002, 18:16
Mr. Turner -

A couple of quick corrections:

1) I said that Takenouchi-ryu had 1000's of members, not T-St-ryu.
2) I don't recall writing that they didn't have a "soke." I may have (shrug).

I'm away from my computer right now, but here's the little I know - when I return home, I might have a little more.

a. T-St-ryu claims that their first three generations were the 1st three generations of Takenouchi-ryu. They claim Araki Muninsai as their 4th generation. The 5th generation was someone with (if my recollection is correct), Nakamura. The lineage is somewhat dubious. AS best as can be ascertained, Araki-ryu's connection with Takenouchi-ryu is thru the 1st generation, taught to Araki Muninsai's teacher. (I've got an essay on this coming up in Old School).According to the ages of the 1st three gen. of Takenouchi's, the grandson would have had to have taught a very old man (Araki). It just doesn't fit. It's my guess that Nakamura (again, I'll check the name) probably learned Takenouchi-ryu, made something new, and wanted to give credit to the strongest men in the ryu, and probably also made himself look good in the process. Or - this could have been done by one of his successors. (At that time of Japanese history, it was quite reasonable to name one's "inspiration" as one's teacher).

As for your other questions:
1) Okayama wasn't in Kyushu, it was in Kansai on Honshu. I'll check and see if I can find the T-St-ryu region of Kyushu later.
2) My best guess is that T St-ryu branched off or was created in about 1640 or 1650. BUT, it may have continued to change and develop since that time. The idea that koryu were frozen at birth is a new concept.
3) To clarify, I have absolutely no opinion one way or the other regarding Mr. Ikeuchi, except being a little intrigued that his father may have received inka (teaching license) or some other certification, and that, thus, the ryu lives. That Shimazu (a character, but quite a researcher) is interested in the man is not, as one person suggested, collusion in a small club, but actually some support that the lineage has some basis.
4) I noticed in Mol's book that one of his teachers is photographsed supposedly doing one or more (don't remember) T-St-ryu waza. However, they openly claim they research and recreate other ryu, so how they got that waza is unknown to me.

When I return to my home, I'll see if I can give you any more info.

BEst

Ellis Amdur

Rennis
10th September 2002, 21:26
I know Takenouchi Santo ryu was well represented in the Kumamoto area. If you can read Japanese, the book "Higo Budoshi" contains alot of information on this school (history, lineage, curriculum, etc). Its lineage claims are quite complex with three branches of Takenouchi ryu splitting for awhile and then supposedly coming back together in the Yano (? ) family which is probably the source of the "Santo" part of the name, (O?, ie, "three lineage").

A quick scan of what is written here leads me to believe that the "Santo" part was probably added fairly recently. The Yano family had been doing a combination of two of the lineages prior to a third being added by the third generation Yano head (the first two generations even taught just "Takenouchi ryu" at the domain school). In total, six generations of Yano family members are listed here, the last three supposedly having all three lineages. The one directly after the person who brought all three lines together seems to have been alive in the Taisho period so this what leads me to suspect the "Santo" part was added to the name in the Meiji period or perhaps the very end of the Edo period. Interesting they also list that same person as the 27 generation (QV) of the ryu and this number can only be achieved my adding up every member of all three lineages. Anyways, this book was originally compiled in 1940 and is basically a collection of various historical documents from the Higo (Kumamoto) area regarding its budo, so it isn't of much use in determining whether or not the ryu still exists in that area, but it seem that it was still around in the beginning of the Showa period.

Don't know if this helps but...

Rennis Buchner

Brian Griffin
11th September 2002, 08:30
In that famous 1906 photo of the Jujutsu masters who met at the Dai Nippon Butokukai to standardize the kata of Kodokan Judo, we see:

YANO Koji (Kumamoto) Takenouchi San-To Ryu kyoshi

(seated in the front row, third man on Kano's left)

Ellis Amdur
11th September 2002, 20:35
I will need some assistance in reading the material I have, which might take a little time. But from what I can understand, Rennis' historical take seems accurate. What I can read of the curriculum shows:
1) An initial shoden-type level which seems to have a total of 30 kata which appear to be various kinds of torite.
2) A chuden level with 13 kogusoku and other jujutsu type waza totalling 13 + 12 (the latter with 48 "variations."
3) A kaiden level with 12 techniques
4) A shinden (deity and tradition) level with five techniques

As far as I can tell - and there are NO descriptions of the techniques, just the names - all of the above are grappling, probably with tanto

5) 14 + 14 revival and "shi" (death) methods - probably kappo and kyusho

6) Gokui - 23 techniques

7) Nawa - six sun (inch) rope, three shaku (feet) rope, and military rope

8) Five tojutsu (sword) techniques

9) Gokui (probably for sword) - five techniques


Then there are a number of kuden - Lots and lots - one I just read is true, but not profound - "whether you are a big warrior, or a little warrior, it's really a matter of heart.

Next chance I have to get someone to actually translate this, I will post it. I might simply post it on my own website, because I've no idea when I'll have the time to get this together.

Best

Ellis Amdur

Ellis Amdur
12th September 2002, 04:09
Mr. Turner -

I copied this from a book somewhere - for the life of me, I've no idea where. The mokuroku obviously isn't private info, since it's been disseminated. Send me a private email with your address, and I will forward you a copy. Just send me back a translation, and I'll post it for anyone to read. Once up, it will be intriguing to see if Takenouchi-ryu practitioners see any similarities left in the original ryu and what developed here.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

Brian Griffin
12th September 2002, 08:48
Originally posted by Yobina
Mr Griffin, "that famous 1906 photo of the Jujutsu masters," where may I find a copy of this photo? Is it reprinted in a book? I was unable to find it on the net.
Try this article on Ben Holmes' website (http://www.bestjudo.com/article15.shtml)

Which reminds me: I was supposed to clean up the romanization of the names & such in the caption, but I just got too busy. Here's my best effort--perhaps Mr. Amdur would be kind enough to correct any errors he might notice:


Dai-Nippon Butokukai
Greater-Japan Martial Virtue Association

Judo Kata Seitei-iin
members of the committee to establish the kata of Judo

(Front row, right to left)
HIRATSUKA Katsuta (Kagawa) Yoshin Ryu
YANO Koji (Kumamoto) Takenouchi San-To Ryu kyoshi
SEKIGUCHI Jushin (Wakayama) Sekiguchi Ryu
TOTSUKA Eibi (Chiba) Yoshin Ryu hanshi
KANO Jigoro (Tokyo) Kodokan Judo hanshi
HOSHINO Kumon (Kumamoto) Shiten Ryu hanshi
KATAYAMA Takayoshi (Kagawa) Yoshin Ryu
EGUCHI Yazo (Kumamoto) Kyushin Ryu kyoshi
INAZU Masamizu (Kyoto) Miura Ryu

(Back row, right to left)
YAMASHITA Yoshiaki (Tokyo) Kodokan Judo kyoshi
ISOGAI Hajime (Kyoto) Kodokan Judo kyoshi
YOKOYAMA Sakujiro (Tokyo) Kodokan Judo kyoshi
NAGAOKA Shuichi (Kyoto) Kodokan Judo kyoshi
TAKANO Shikataro (Okayama) Takenouchi Ryu
TANABE Matauemon (Himeji) Fusen Ryu kyoshi
IMAI Kotaro (Okayama) Takenouchi Ryu kyoshi
SATO Hoken (Kyoto) Kodokan Judo kyoshi
OSHIMA Hikosaburo (Kagawa) Takenouchi Ryu kyoshi
TSUMIZU Mokichi (Wakayama) Sekiguchi Ryu
AOYAGI Kihei (Fukuoka) Sosuishitsu Ryu kyoshi

Kyoto-shi o Butokukai Honbu
Butokukai Headquarters in the city of Kyoto

Meiji 39-nen 7-gatsu 24-nichi
July 24, 39th year of Meiji (1906)


(Note that the three hanshi are front-and-center, with Kano smack-dab in the middle. At his elbow is Totsuka, his main rival at the 1886 Police tournament. Many of the others--including Tanabe of Fusen-Ryu--appear in Yokoyama's Judo Kyohan demonstrating Judo grappling techniques)

(Ben--if you're out there--sorry for the delay)

Lance Gatling
7th October 2007, 15:17
Hi.

I've read up on this thread and others.

I practice with a Takueuchi ryu jujutsu dojo that includes some folks working to revive Takeuchi Santo Ryu techniques using the materials from a qualified instructor's notes and outlines. As far as anyone in Takeuchi ryu seems to know, active TSR disappeared with the death in 1975 of the gent who was supposedly the last qualified instructor, Shimada Hideki.

I have his bio by his daughter, published in 2007. At one point he was a judo instructor at the Imperial Navy School at Etajima, and one supposes they only took the best. Later he taught TSR for a time in Kumamoto at the request of the head of police, who'd studied as a young man.

I'm still reading but no one is aware of a current group practicing the entire syllabus; if there is, we'd be interested in contacting them.

TSR centered on the city of Kumamoto. The descendants of the Yano family now live in Tokyoo.

Regards,

Lance

Lance Gatling
8th October 2007, 15:13
Talked today with one of the Tokyo-based Takeuchi ryu shihan. He said there is a group associated with the 'Hoshino dojo' in Kumamoto that practices one portion of the TSR syllabus, but they are limited to that single portion, from his understanding.

Lance

Fred27
8th October 2007, 15:20
working to revive Takeuchi Santo Ryu techniques using the materials from a qualified instructor's notes and outlines.

Is that possible? To revive a tradition that way? What about the inner teachings?

Lance Gatling
8th October 2007, 16:52
No, I'd say not. You can't revive traditions; maybe some would argue otherwise.

But they're not trying to revive a tradition, as I mentioned they're trying to 'revive' (let's call it figure out?) the TSR techniques based on lists of techniques with directions (some detailed, some sketchy), and a lot of good experience behind them, some guesses, a dose of common sense, and experimentation. They make no claims to be planning to or attempting to revive the lost TSR 'traditions', just some fun to try a glimpse at another art.

I'd put it in the class of the Western blade swingers who try to figure out old sword techniques from ancient Italian texts; fun, and harmless enough if done in the right spirit. Although some of the techniques are quite strong, that part is serious enough.

Cheers,

Lance

morpheus
8th October 2007, 19:26
"Is that possible? To revive a tradition that way? What about the inner teachings?"

One could say that is exactly what Nakashima Atsumi did with Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu, or at least that iw what I have read.

Jeff

Rennis
8th October 2007, 20:05
"Is that possible? To revive a tradition that way? What about the inner teachings?"

One could say that is exactly what Nakashima Atsumi did with Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu, or at least that iw what I have read.

Jeff

Basically yes. Nakashima found the Katayama ryu grappling related densho (which are fairly extensive I will admit) along with several other densho from unrelated ryu that the Katayama ryu family had in their possession and came up with what he thought were the proper techniques for descriptions and illustrations. Then he lumped it all together, hunted down one of the surviving members of the Katayama family (who doesn't do martial arts, the ones who were actually passing on Katayama ryu were all killed in Hiroshima) and convinced him to declare him the 10th soke of Katayama Hoki ryu Jujutsu (even though such an art never existed before that moment. Katayama ryu was iai and kenjutsu with some grappling, while Hoki ryu was the Kumamoto based off shoot of Katayama ryu whose name also happens to be better known now-a-days). While Nakashima is at fairly honest that this was the approach he took, just about all of the practitioners and teachers of the surviving arts that actually directly stem from Katayama Hisayasu tend to just raise their eyebrow when he comes up in conversation.

As for the Hoshino dojo guys in Kumamoto, if they are related to the Hoki ryu Hoshino family (which I'm pretty sure they are), I've never heard of them actually practicing Takeuchi Santo ryu as they were teachers of Shiten ryu jujutsu. That said, the surviving group in Kumamoto does, as I recall, practice the Higo no Taijutsu kata (I believe that's the name, I'm away from my notes right now) which, if I recall correctly, was a set of techniques from the major Kumamoto jujutsu ryuha made in the Meiji period (?). If memory serves me correctly teachers of Shiten ryu, Takeuchi Santo ryu and one other ryu (Yoshin ryu?) got together and deviced this featuring techniques from the different ryu. The Hoshino family was involved in this so my guess is that any Takeuchi Santo ryu techniques they do came from that, other it is possible that somewhere along the line someone picked up something else.

Lance Gatling
13th December 2007, 00:12
Basically yes. Nakashima found the Katayama ryu grappling related densho (which are fairly extensive I will admit) along with several other densho from unrelated ryu that the Katayama ryu family had in their possession and came up with what he thought were the proper techniques for descriptions and illustrations. Then he lumped it all together, hunted down one of the surviving members of the Katayama family (who doesn't do martial arts, the ones who were actually passing on Katayama ryu were all killed in Hiroshima) and convinced him to declare him the 10th soke of Katayama Hoki ryu Jujutsu (even though such an art never existed before that moment. Katayama ryu was iai and kenjutsu with some grappling, while Hoki ryu was the Kumamoto based off shoot of Katayama ryu whose name also happens to be better known now-a-days). While Nakashima is at fairly honest that this was the approach he took, just about all of the practitioners and teachers of the surviving arts that actually directly stem from Katayama Hisayasu tend to just raise their eyebrow when he comes up in conversation.

As for the Hoshino dojo guys in Kumamoto, if they are related to the Hoki ryu Hoshino family (which I'm pretty sure they are), I've never heard of them actually practicing Takeuchi Santo ryu as they were teachers of Shiten ryu jujutsu. That said, the surviving group in Kumamoto does, as I recall, practice the Higo no Taijutsu kata (I believe that's the name, I'm away from my notes right now) which, if I recall correctly, was a set of techniques from the major Kumamoto jujutsu ryuha made in the Meiji period (?). If memory serves me correctly teachers of Shiten ryu, Takeuchi Santo ryu and one other ryu (Yoshin ryu?) got together and deviced this featuring techniques from the different ryu. The Hoshino family was involved in this so my guess is that any Takeuchi Santo ryu techniques they do came from that, other it is possible that somewhere along the line someone picked up something else.

Sorry, didn't catch this reply until today.

The 'Higo ryu jujutsu' experiment is interesting - my rough theory is that it was a belated, doomed response to the burgeoning interest in and popularity of Kodokan judo / Butokukai jujutsu.

I have a 1890-era Butokukai Kumamoto branch event program that shows a demo of the 'Butokukai jujutsu kata' followed by match after match of 'Higo ryu jujutsu'. The event's leadership includes all the main dojo heads of Kumamoto, including Eguchi Ezo, Hoshino, etc. I guess the notion was that a common jujutsu style allowed competition, but hard to tell. I'll dive into 'Higo Budo Shi' sometime, try to sort that out.

Cheers,