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gmellis
12th September 2002, 06:48
Except for really fat people who cannot twist at the hips, I have never seen a race or culture that walked like that (but if anyone knows of one I'm all ears). I always assumed that the opposite hand swinging up was a natural function of the human body to help balance itself against the lack of support caused by the rising of the opposite leg. Do an experiment and try running like that. You'll find that with both your same hand and leg jolting forward during the run, you whole body over-pivots toward that direction, requiring even more counterforce to realign the body on when the opposite leg and arm fling up. Not a very efficient way of running or walking in my book. Thoughts anyone?

hyaku
12th September 2002, 08:01
Originally posted by Yobina
Hello,

I recently heard from a koryu teacher that, "When the Samurai walked it wasn't as we do today, it was without the arms swinging. When the right foot took a step the right arm swung up with it, when the left foot took a step the left arm swung up with it,......etc. When Europeans came to Japan, the Japanese learned how to walk in the European fashion."

"The arms should come up with the step and the toes should point towards the opponent."

What he descibed was kinda like the uncoordinated guy in "Sumo do, Sumo don't," where the arms follow the steps and give the impression that he can't walk properly.

Anyone in the koryu arts taught in this fashion? Is this correct, or some kinda modern falacy?
..................
Yes I am taught like that. If Sohke/Sensei thinks my co-ordination needs improving its back to walking lessons. Don't mind that. But walking along the mountain top with him holding my hand so I step in time with him raises a few glances.

So when we finally get a Western seminar organized, you guys will know what you are in for!

Another thought to bear in mind is has anyone tried to walk a great distance with swords? I was taught some time ago to walk with a larger step on one side so they didn't sway about so much.

The things we do for Budo!

Lets face it Japanese walk differently anyway. And I have been here so long I do too now.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

ghp
13th September 2002, 01:07
I remember watching a video in which Shimazu Kenji sensei (18th Shihan of Yagyu Shingan Ryu Jujutsu) walked like that -- and I laughed my butt off. I showed it to my MJER teacher so he'd get a belly-laugh, but he nodded in recognition and said that was indeed the old-style walk. However, it was done indoors while wearing the extra long hakama. In order not to trip, the wearer would grasp the hakama at the knees, lift the material up (like a girl walking up stairs) and walk forward -- left hand with left foot; right hand with right foot.

I tried the walk with this in mind and found it comfortable -- especially when walking up stairs :laugh: (seriously! at a kendo shinsa).

I eventually met Shimazu sensei http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/photos/shimazukenji.jpg

Anyway, that's the story I heard.

If you look at old paintings, you'll see that even ancient Japanese walked "normally" -- right leg counterbalanced by the left arm; left leg counterbalanced by the right arm.

Perhaps the arm swing wasn't as pronounced? When in the army and running long distances, I was taught to let my arms hang free and allow my shoulders to counterbalance my stride (although most people bend their elbows at a 45º angle and clench their fists close to the chest). It is sort of the same technique used when running and carrying M-60 ammunition cans in each hand.

--Guy

carl mcclafferty
13th September 2002, 03:16
Guy

I have some relatives in the mountains that don't swing their arms when they walk, but their not Japanese and most of the family tries not to emulate them. I think I'll stick with standard arm swing even in my koryu practice.

Carl McClafferty

MKL
13th September 2002, 06:42
Just a thought...

I think (I have a slight memory of reading it from somewhere too) that the minimal hand swinging could be due to clothing. It must have been easier not to get tangled with your wide motsuki sleeves and your sword if you did not swing your hands. Similarly, if one was wearing haori on the shoulders (hands not in the sleeves) it might have been easier to walk without the swing :) And I guees same goes with walking/running with shorter steps so that you don't trip over on your hakama.

Comments anyone?

Walker
13th September 2002, 07:38
I thought the samurai strode down the road with their arm inside the kimono scratching themselves or rubbing their chin stubble. :mst:

Brently Keen
13th September 2002, 22:59
In Daito-ryu it is also still taught in some schools how to walk in this manner, as the samurai did. While in other schools (like the one I studied) it is not really emphasized too much anymore, probably because there is less emphasis (in regular classes anyway) on weapons training, and more emphasis on practical application of principles to modern situations. While it may not be religiously emphasized, or taught as crucial to learning the art in contemporary times, it is certainly acknowledged that it was at one time the norm. And as I think someone else mentioned, it still often comes out in abreviated form in the course of applying techniques even if it's not adhered to in one's everyday movement while walking around.

For example, a large number of techniques in the Roppokai adhere to a "same hand, same foot" principle and methodology. There are of course exceptions and variations, but those are more modern exceptions and variations to the rule (imo). There are actually numerous principles, and various applications from the very basic to deeper levels of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu's methodology that are closely related to this rule.

Personally, because of my interest in weapons and the relationship between modern (mostly empty-hand) Daito-ryu practice and the original applications of such techniques in an armed context, I practiced such walking a lot, even though it wasn't emphasized strongly in my branch. I also observed some of my seniors practicing walking like that from time to time - say when walking from the dojo to the train station. For me, it took some getting used to, but I eventually became able to do so fairly naturally for even long distances.

The reason for such walking as I understand it has more to do with the carrying/wearing of weapons than with clothing per se. Although the restrictive nature of various clothing, like kimono, hakama etc... may have some bearing as well, like Guy mentioned. I do think that the primary reason for the odd way of walking has more to do with the practical concerns of carrying/wearing daisho around in everyday life, as well as the strategic concerns of being able to use them in iai or batto fashion for self-defense or the carrying out of one's duties, not to mention general ettiquette.

FWIW I've also read several accounts of early European visits to Japan, and there were a number of mentions about the peculiar way that the samurai walked, with a distinctive sort of "swagger". This sort of walking is definitely not a modern myth, and really does have solid, practical reasons for why it was done that way during the time that the bushi carried and used their swords on a regular basis. Unless you're also carrying and using your swords regularly today though, the practice is of lesser applicability or importance, and that explains why it's not emphasized in much modern practice of the art. It will however (imo), give some insight into how and why some techniques and movements in koryu bujutsu were (and in many cases still are) executed the way they were, and for those who seek them out, there are also many practical applications for today to be discovered by using such insight.

Brently Keen

PS: Apart from all that, I think Doug is probably right about a good number of samurai - even would be modern day ones. ;)

Brently Keen
13th September 2002, 23:23
Andrew, Greg, and Carl,

Just to play the devils advocate, who's to say that perhaps we westerners are the ones that walk against nature?

Is it possible that what is natural in one context is actually unnatural in another?

Furthermore, isn't one of the purposes of martial training to overcome, as well as take advantage of what are natural behaviors and tendencies?

I would suggest that what comes naturally is not always what is most appropriate, beneficial or efficient.

I also think that there were some very good reasons why the samurai developed this sort of method of walking. I'm not saying they are necessarily good reasons for you or anyone else to start doing so today - I certainly haven't adopted it as my "normal" method of walking around everyday (that would be silly), but for me, it's practice and the subsequent insights into those reasons, have positively influenced the way that I think and move in various contexts.

Something to chew on if it suits your fancy.

Brently Keen

Chris Li
14th September 2002, 00:48
Originally posted by Brently Keen


For example, a large number of techniques in the Roppokai adhere to a "same hand, same foot" principle and methodology. There are of course exceptions and variations, but those are more modern exceptions and variations to the rule (imo). There are actually numerous principles, and various applications from the very basic to deeper levels of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu's methodology that are closely related to this rule.

Personally, because of my interest in weapons and the relationship between modern (mostly empty-hand) Daito-ryu practice and the original applications of such techniques in an armed context, I practiced such walking a lot, even though it wasn't emphasized strongly in my branch. I also observed some of my seniors practicing walking like that from time to time - say when walking from the dojo to the train station. For me, it took some getting used to, but I eventually became able to do so fairly naturally for even long distances.


I've seen very old sword techniques based around that kind of movement. I was told at the time that the reason was to compensate for the weight of the armor and conserve energy on the battlefield.

Best,

Chris

Shizen
14th September 2002, 01:04
know what this reminds me of . . .

watch an old western (or a new one if there are any) movie - check out the gun-slingers walk towards eachother before they 'slap leather.'

I think it just has to do with the weapons.
I have seen older japanese men (especially budoka) walk that way though, a sort of waddle with very little arm swing. I don't think it's natural though, just a form of ashi-sabaki.

Brently Keen
14th September 2002, 02:05
I agree Chris. Conserving energy via economy of motion is just the beginning of it though.

Beats me why some people still speculate that Daito-ryu is a new martial art/tradition, that simply began with Sokaku Takeda. These kinds of movements however, are just some examples that weigh heavily against, if not completely refute such notions (imo).

Incidentally, one of the many meanings of the term "roppo" in Roppokai refers to the noted swagger of certain "bad ass" sort of samurai not too unlike their 'old western' counterparts in the movies.

Brently Keen

gmellis
14th September 2002, 02:39
I have marched (and sometimes run to catch up to the procession) wearing both hakama with sword as well as in armor with tachi, and I can say with experience that unless you keep your left hand on the sword when running or walking quickly (not as important when walking slowly), it will flop around. While I have yet to try this unique walking style you speak of, I can't imagine that it would allow running or walking with any less flopping of the sword, being as the waist or torso will still have to rotate to accomodate the minimal movements in the legs and torso necessary for locomotion. While I can't remember clearly off-hand, I believe Seven Samurai displayed this well when the group ran back into the village when they discovered that bandits had snuck in another way. Left hand on sword-full out dash (Although it has been a while since I saw it). I don't disregard that method or anything, especially as it was as much customary probably as it was utilitarian. In fact, I wonder if it wasn't influenced by Ogasawara-Ryu Reiho, being as they practice a similar form of walking manner as you speak, and the school of etiquette is quite old. But whether or not I would use it to lead my battalion in a charge up a hill to take a tower while arrows are showering down on me, hmmm.

Brently Keen
14th September 2002, 05:06
"I don't disregard that method or anything, especially as it was as much customary probably as it was utilitarian."

That's fair enough Greg.

I do believe there is an ettiquette influence/factor, and that's why I mentioned it. Daito-ryu is heavily based on and influenced by reiho.

OTOH if I may expand a bit on all this, whatever is considered customary (imo) probably became so because it originally (at least) must've served some utilitarian or practical purpose. With no real reason for doing something seemingly unnatural, why would it ever become a customary practice?

Clearly Ogasawara-ryu (and other schools of ettiquette) no doubt originally devised their methods for strategic and practical reasons as much (or more than) they did for customary and aesthetic purposes. I personally think that aesthetic value and customary value were probably added later for such strategic and practical considerations. After that, the original considerations may have been forgotten, de-emphasized, or lost in many cases, and unfortunately much of what remains tends to be more or less customary and/or aesthetic appropriateness, or exterior forms.

As for charging up a hill with arrows bearing down on ya, if I were you, I'd wait til dark, utilize some sort of cover, or diversion before I led my battallion in a foolish charge against some heavily armed tower! ;)

Sokaku Takeda said, "even an expert can be defeated by a layman if the expert is negligent." Doh! Is that a basic truth to keep in mind or what?

A bushi charged with leading his troops up a hill to take a tower has to act and lead appropriately, because the guys in the tower have the advantageous position, you can't just expect to proceed up the hill in any manner that feels natural to ya and reasonably expect to be successful in taking the tower. If you're gonna try and take the tower, then you'll have to go about it appropriately, lest the guys in the tower rebuff your every effort. As a side note, btw, I think that arrows shooting down would tend to hurt a lot more than any arrows shooting up.

At any rate, in Daito-ryu ideally we're not supposed to provide any openings in our techniques and movements, so that's an objective of our training method. While I'm certainly no master of strategy, or expert in feudal era samurai warfare I do think the principle of appropriateness still applies.

So, if there are or were good reasons for walking (or running?) that way, then it might be useful to know what those reasons would be, and under which circumstances they might be more appropriately applied.

In your example, I might surmise that as long as the enemy is holed up in his tower, then I would want to run as fast and efficiently as possible from one place of cover to the next, avoiding the downpour of arrows as best as I can as I lead my cohorts up the hill. The "same hand, same foot" samurai swagger might just impede such an effort, and be much less appropriate or practical (I won't presume to say for certain though).

But let's visualize another situation in which you might be sent by your lord to carry and deliver an important message, and if certain adversaries did not want you to deliver the message, and they were sure to be following you waiting for an unguarded moment, or lying in wait somewhere along your route to ambush you. Then you would have to exercise great awareness and leave no openings as you proceeded on your way to carry out your task and deliver the imporatant message. If you fail, great calamity might fall upon your clan, or your lord, and certainly your family, and the particular martial traditions you practiced would all be shamed. If you survived you might be obligated or expected to to commit seppuku.

So as you make your way towards your destination if you walk (or run) in your normal manner, and with every other step your right leg (and left hand) are out front and your right hand (and left leg) are back, then 50% of the time you would be more vulnerable to attack because the relative position of your right hand to your left hand, your sword, and your feet would all require extra movement in order to draw your weapon in smooth response to a surprise attack. And such might be just the opening your lord's adversaries would need to stop you from reaching your destination.

The successful completion of your mission might fully depend on your abilities as an expert swordsman to deliver the message without giving any openings or opportunities to adversaries who would prevent you from doing so. Walking in the samurai manner described, may look and feel strange, but it is consistent in that your right hand is never further away or removed from quickly and smoothly reaching your sword at any point in your stride.

This is just one example of a reason and a situation where such a manner of walking with hands and feet coordinated might be more appropriate because it actually makes you less vulnerable to attack, or at least more able to respond freely at any moment.

In your example, as long as the enemy is waiting up in their tower, then they're not going to be within range to take advantage of any slight opening created by every other step as you walk or run. Likewise you may already have your sword out, as you charge up the hill, or you might be carrying another weapon such as a bow or spear, or a shield to protect from arrows, and so it would be irrelevant if you could reach and draw your sword in mid-stride as you charged up the hill, because you either already had it out or you were holding on to something else.

But if you were walking across town on official business, or making your way home at the end of the day, or otherwise going about your daily life as a samurai escorting and protecting your lord or whatever, and anyone had reason to want to take you or him out, then you might (if you were truly a professional) conduct yourself in such a way as not to offend, but always be prepared and ready to defend yourself and your lord. IOW you'd behave appropriately (such is so much of reiho anyway), and then you would naturally take care to exercise your awareness skills and abilities throughout all your activities (including walking) in order to minimize any openings. Your own survival and certainly the protection of your lord, family, village, or whatever would depend upon on your diligence, discipline, and attention to slight details, because a careless moment of negligence just might cause your defeat, by providing an opportunity or opening for your opponent(s) to sieze and take advantage of.

Does that make any sense?

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Walker
14th September 2002, 07:50
I’m sorry Brently, but as I was reading your post I stared thinking of all the good aikidoists walking down the street with looks of great determination on their faces mumbling, “right hamni... left hamni... right hamni...” Then I started thinking, “what if they were all in the Yoshinkan....” and I just had to stop. Thinking that is.

Neil Yamamoto
14th September 2002, 09:36
Open the door, get on your knees, everyone walk like Japanese?

Oh, wait, sorry, I'm confusing things here, that's "Everyone walk the dinosaur." My bad.

Brently Keen
14th September 2002, 14:55
:D :rolleyes: :D

gmellis
15th September 2002, 03:13
Too bad the Koryu vets don't pipe in on e-budo anymore. This is getting to be an interesting post. :(

15th September 2002, 03:23
This walking method was lectured on at the Budo Seminar held every year in Chiba and is sponsored by the Nippon Budokan and Board of Education.

It seems the walking method was an affected walking method rather than a natural walking method for Japanese. If I am not mistaken the lecturer also tried to give some of martial arts demo and wound up getting knocked on his ass by one of the participants of the seminar.
Just another case of someone that can't "walk it the way they talk it" I guess. ;)
I found the walking method to be rather ridiculous and use less.

15th September 2002, 03:25
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
Open the door, get on your knees, everyone walk like Japanese?

Oh, wait, sorry, I'm confusing things here, that's "Everyone walk the dinosaur." My bad.


Shouldn't that be "I think I'm turning Japanese" by the Vapors?;)

hyaku
15th September 2002, 06:12
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
This walking method was lectured on at the Budo Seminar held every year in Chiba and is sponsored by the Nippon Budokan and Board of Education.

It seems the walking method was an affected walking method rather than a natural walking method for Japanese.
.........

In that case please disregard my post. Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is based on a more normal Japanese walking method. I wouldnt say it was affected as much as blending in so as not to show ones intentions.

Is saying its rather easy to pick out a walking foreigner a very large crowd of Japanese or visa versa.

Lower body movement is one of the essentials of budo. That top heavy gait and Johanshin is one of the main things Westerners have to overcome to become proficient. In regards to Budo it brings to mind the saying "Learning to run before you can walk".

Looking at the way someone walks is one of the first things I notice. "Walking with hara" as they say.

Hyakutake Colin

Brently Keen
15th September 2002, 06:59
"If I am not mistaken the lecturer also tried to give some of martial arts demo and wound up getting knocked on his ass by one of the participants of the seminar."

I don't suppose that might say more about the particular lecturer's own level of understanding of the method, and it's appropriate applications, than the method itself and it's usefulness now would it?

At any rate, it seems to me somebody was moving/acting inappropriately.

Brently Keen

15th September 2002, 07:38
Originally posted by Brently Keen

I don't suppose that might say more about the particular lecturer's own level of understanding of the method, and it's appropriate applications, than the method itself and it's usefulness now would it?

The guy was billed as an "expert" in his field....so I don't.



Originally posted by Brently Keen
At any rate, it seems to me somebody was moving/acting inappropriately.



Which one would that be?

Brently Keen
16th September 2002, 00:45
You don't know? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Brently Keen

16th September 2002, 01:01
Originally posted by Brently Keen
You don't know? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Brently Keen


No I guess I don't.
You mean obvious to you because you were not there and have basically no idea what transpired...........why don't you enlighten me.

16th September 2002, 01:09
Originally posted by Brently Keen

I would suggest that what comes naturally is not always what is most appropriate, beneficial or efficient.

Really? Can you give some examples?


Originally posted by Brently Keen
I also think that there were some very good reasons why the samurai developed this sort of method of walking.

What reasons would that be?

16th September 2002, 06:54
Originally posted by Yobina


Firstly, Mr Rousselot and Mr Keen, please don't turn this into an argument. I am thankful to all the people who have posted with their opinions and various takes on this method of walking.

No problem, and it won't be. I think smart ass remarks given by someone that was not privy to witness the event are not called for. So if Mr. Keen would like to continue he can PM me.


Originally posted by Yobina
I think the teacher who explained this walking method to me said that it was used at all times no matter what the clothing worn. Any thoughts?

The lecture I attended pretty much said the same thing. This was a common walking style independent of the clothing worn. A friend of mine has a book that lists many of the rules that governed the Shizoka class (samurai) over different periods. It is rather interesting and gives many of the sometimes bizarre rules that they had to live by. In the Samurai class there were several levels and much like the modern army of today with lowly privates all the way up to generals.
Depending on the level you were restricted to wear a certain type of cloth and in some cases a certain color.

Brently Keen
16th September 2002, 08:16
Andrew, I've no intention of arguing, I'm simply stating my opinons and sharing things I've been taught and/or have discovered throughout a few years of training, and studying these things.

Robert wrote: "why don't you enlighten me."

Like I said, I think it's fairly obvious, why should I spell out what should be clearly evident from what you told us, and should have been even more clear to you since you were apparently there? Surely you're capable of discerning for yourself, no? Seems to me you've already decided such walking is inappropriate anyway "ridiculous and useless" as I think you put it - what good would it do for me to further explain otherwise, or in more detail?

"Really? Can you give some examples?"

"What reasons would that be?"

"I think smart ass remarks given by someone that was not privy to witness the event are not called for. So if Mr. Keen would like to continue he can PM me."

I could give a number of examples and reasons, but why bother? You can clearly deem what is inappropriate for me, but can't see for yourself what might have been inappropriate in a situation that you witnessed? Obviously you haven't much respect for me or what I've contributed to the thread, so why should I indulge you here or in PM? I'll just bow out and let you explain everything to the rest of us.

Brently Keen

16th September 2002, 08:30
Originally posted by Brently Keen

Robert wrote: "why don't you enlighten me."

Like I said, I think it's fairly obvious, why should I spell out what should be clearly evident from what you told us, and should have been even more clear to you since you were apparently there? Surely you're capable of discerning for yourself, no? Seems to me you've already decided such walking is inappropriate anyway "ridiculous and useless" as I think you put it - what good would it do for me to further explain otherwise, or in more detail?

Yes it was fairly obvious when the lecturer basically said I am going to do this technique and you won't be able to do anything. Sounded like he threw down a challange and got called on it. Probably wasn't very wise of him to make such a statement.



Originally posted by Brently Keen
I could give a number of examples and reasons, but why bother?

Why don't you.........I for one would like to read them.

Soulend
16th September 2002, 09:25
This discussion is pretty interesting. Does the style of walking have a particular name? I remember that Funakoshi once wrote that when he was young, a type of walking called suriashi was "in fashion", and he walked like that even as he got on in years. Don't know if it relates to the "samurai walk" though, as suriashi seems to have been more like a gliding kind of step. But I figure if they had a name for that type of walk they would have a name for the other as well. I'm more familiar with chidori-ashi personally.

Could it be that this type of walk was affected in order to maintain control of the daisho on the left and the inro on the right? Just a thought..

16th September 2002, 11:24
Actually I wondered about that myself, however Funakoshi didn't go into much detail so it is impossible to say.

Jack B
16th September 2002, 17:13
I apologize for not having anything substantial to add to this topic, but after spending a summer in Tokyo/Chiba, I noticed myself developing peculiar samurai-like walking habits. It seemed to be related to humidity and heat, a phenomenon I call "chafing."

We discovered a substance called "Johnson's Baby Powder" that, applied in liberal quantities, temporarily alleviated the condition.

Jack Bieler

gmellis
17th September 2002, 02:29
I apologize for not having anything substantial to add to this topic, but after spending a summer in Tokyo/Chiba, I noticed myself developing peculiar samurai-like walking habits. It seemed to be related to humidity and heat, a phenomenon I call "chafing."

We discovered a substance called "Johnson's Baby Powder" that, applied in liberal quantities, temporarily alleviated the condition.
Jack Bieler

___________________________________________________________________
(pisses self with chuckles)
Jack,
I find that if I one wears only a fundoshi (like the ones they wear in festivals) and thongs around town, the humidity is really no problem at all. Oh, Oh......I gotcha. You mean you were in Japan during the summer wearing WESTERN CLOTHES not suitable for this type of climate! Gotcha! Well, that's your problem right there.:D

hyaku
17th September 2002, 03:26
I apologize for not having anything substantial to add to this topic, but after spending a summer in Tokyo/Chiba, I noticed myself developing peculiar samurai-like walking habits. It seemed to be related to humidity and heat, a phenomenon I call "chafing."

We discovered a substance called "Johnson's Baby Powder" that, applied in liberal quantities, temporarily alleviated the condition.
Jack Bieler

___________________________________________________________________
(pisses self with chuckles)
Jack,
I find that if I one wears only a fundoshi (like the ones they wear in festivals) and thongs around town, the humidity is really no problem at all. Oh, Oh......I gotcha. You mean you were in Japan during the summer wearing WESTERN CLOTHES not suitable for this type of climate! Gotcha! Well, that's your problem right there.
........
Yes that and the "What do people wear under a hakama" question.

Also can the history eating white rice be connected to Koryu? Predominant bad cases of haemorroids definately play a big part in the way a lot of Japanese walk.

Hyakutake Colin

CKohalyk
18th September 2002, 05:26
Soulend-

The walking style is known as "namba-aruki" and is a highly contested topic between traditionalists and reformers.

Robert-

The guy at the seminar (Kono) wasn't knocked on his ass as I recall. He said he could make anybody grabbing his wrist go down (kinda like an Aiki-thing. Kono did get 3rd in Aikido) and the one guy who volunteered was a huge American (I cannot remember his name right now) who reminds me of Bob Sapp but with much less muscle. Pretty hard feat. The other situation was the "I'm gonna touch your face" thing when our distinguished MC (Randy) touched his face.

Kono also had some wild historical theories that most of the people there (including me) were not impressed with. I was the one he drew the shinken on so I was impressed. He may be lacking in more ways than one, but he sure can move.

CK

18th September 2002, 05:40
Originally posted by CKohalyk
Soulend-

The walking style is known as "namba-aruki" and is a highly contested topic between traditionalists and reformers.

Robert-

The guy at the seminar (Kono) wasn't knocked on his ass as I recall. He said he could make anybody grabbing his wrist go down (kinda like an Aiki-thing. Kono did get 3rd in Aikido) and the one guy who volunteered was a huge American (I cannot remember his name right now) who reminds me of Bob Sapp but with much less muscle. Pretty hard feat. The other situation was the "I'm gonna touch your face" thing when our distinguished MC (Randy) touched his face.

Kono also had some wild historical theories that most of the people there (including me) were not impressed with. I was the one he drew the shinken on so I was impressed. He may be lacking in more ways than one, but he sure can move.

CK


That would have been Randy Channel....

CKohalyk
18th September 2002, 08:38
Yup :D

Nathan Scott
18th September 2002, 08:56
Hello all,

I don't know much about this type of "samurai walking" outside of a few random references.

I don't think that the "nanba aruki" method ("to walk about under difficult circumstances?"), which is the term used at least in Yagyu Shingan ryu, is really related to the wearing of nagabakama. There is a method of stepping while wearing nagabakama, but to my recollection it has a different name and is a slightly different method.

Suriashi does mean "gliding/sliding step", but is a common aspect to many of the various Japanese styles of footwork, not really a method in itself. Suriashi is the method of sliding the foot while keeping the toes down (or in some cases the balls of the feet) - in other words, not heel-to-toe/ toe-to-heel.

As far as nanba aruki, Shimazu Sensei of YSgR stated in a video taped demonstration that, at least one of the main reasons for using this walk was that the sword could be drawn most effectively if the right arm were to swing forward at the same time as the right leg. To demonstrate this, he had a volunteer from the audience who practiced iai come up and walk across the stage, insisting that those that practiced swordsmanship already had this habit from drawing the sword repeatedly.

I don't know if this is exactly true of all swordsman that practice drawing techniques, but I can say that quite a bit of sword drawing technique involves drawing with the right hand while the right foot is forward. In fact, a great deal of Japanese warrior etiquette is related to the desire of keeping the right side free/forward in case the need to draw a weapon is suddenly required.

The employment of weapons mounted in the obi seems to be the most overt practical reason for this walk. While this method would also minimize twisting of the torso, which reduces the amount that your kimono gets pulled out of shape, most of the other methods of traditional walking also seem to take this into account as well, so I'm not sure that this idea is unique to nanba aruki.

I'll have to see if I can dig out that YSgR video again...

HTH,

Nathan Scott
18th September 2002, 09:27
I think this walking method was not necessarily overt, and was used at a walking pace - not for running.

Also, "nanba" is a term used to refer to Osaka. Hence, the term could mean "Osaka-style of walking". People in Osaka have their own ways of doing things, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that a method such as this originated there.

Anybody have any insight?

Alex Meehan
18th September 2002, 10:30
It's probably worth mentioning that Hatsumi Sensei discusses this walking method and has his students demonstrate it on the Kukishinden Ryu Yoroi Kumiuchi video from Quest. He attributes it to being a special way of walking when wearing armour. This argument makes a great deal of sense when you consider that many koryu styles practice ipsolateral punching (same foot forward as fist) such as the Bujinkan Dojo's tsuki.

When I first saw this method of walking, it looked to me sort of like the way you would walk if you were carrying an extremely heavy object. Interestingly, Hatsumi Sensei states on the video:

”Just as it is considered important to walk rhythmically when carrying heavy objects, so the armoured warrior walks keeping a rhythm.”

Just a point.

Alex

CKohalyk
19th September 2002, 01:11
Mr. Scott,

Thanks for keeping me on track, I totally forgot some people were talking about nagabakama. Nanba-aruki (which is what Kono demonstrated at the Budo Seminar) has nothing to do with hakama, and everything to do with the sword as you posted. Also, your "running" comment is good. This was one of the faults with Kono's lecture, leading to his unpopularity.

CK

Nathan Scott
19th September 2002, 09:23
BTW, are you guys talking about someone named Kono Yoshinori? He wrote every now and then in Aikido Journal, and I suspect he may have experience or relations with Daito ryu.

Just curious,

Richard Elias
19th September 2002, 17:50
Interesting thread.

My teacher had also mentioned this method of walking to us quite awhile back and I asked him about it last night.

He concurs with it being done for the ease of drawing a sword. He said that they didn’t necessarily walk like that constantly but more when they were on their guard or feeling a bit paranoid. He said that it was also the reason when entering a room or stepping on the mat one was expected to step with the left foot first. If the hands and feet are moving in preparation for a draw they would move together and you would therefore have to take an additional step before making an effective draw.

He also mentioned a few “tricks” or techniques, if you will, to achieve “the walk” without too much difficulty and to make it more natural. He said they would tighten their left elbow locking it to their side and just let their right arm hand relaxed. Since the left is locked in it moves with the leg and left side of the body, and since our right side and left side are connected it takes most of the swing out of the right side. By only controlling the left side and leaving the right relaxed it could be more easily and quickly brought into play for the draw. He added a few other ways that they would make it less obvious were to tuck the left thumb into the obi or straps of the hakama to secure the left side of the body, or drape the left arm over the saya, wrist bent on top of the tsuba. Sometimes they would also place their right hand just inside the side vent of the hakama, or inside the opening of the kimono, this along with the left arm draped over the sword makes “the walk” look natural. He has also said that regularly paced strides were important, his teacher used to tie a string between his ankles to make sure that he both his left and right sides stepped the same distance.

CKohalyk
20th September 2002, 01:21
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
BTW, are you guys talking about someone named Kono Yoshinori? He wrote every now and then in Aikido Journal, and I suspect he may have experience or relations with Daito ryu.

Just curious,

That's our boy. He got his 3rd in Aikido back in the day, and has rank in Negishi Ryu (and is REALLY good. He can stick a shuriken anywhere from any position. Amazing.) I don't recall him having any D-Ryu connections (and being ex-Takumakai myself, I would have been listening) but I think he has rank in something else modern. Although, besides the Negishi Ryu, I know he has no Koryu background (aside from academic). He split off from everyone and started his own thing, kind of a research group, using his experience both academic and physical. There is a French guy (if I recall) that is with him. Kono does all kinds of seminars all over Japan. He was sorta knocked outta the limelight when Tetchan (Kuroda Tetsuya) came on the scene and started whoopin' everybody. I also heard (a rumour) that Kono was dropped (ie defeated) sometime last year, which made a lot off bandwagon-jumpers lose respect for him.

Hope this helps,

CK

Jeff Hamacher
20th September 2002, 03:35
like Mssrs. Kohalyk & Rousselot, i was at The Seminar the year that Kono-sensei did his demo and lecture. while i could see some merit in some of what he showed us (e.g. hiding okori, or "the beginning of movement"), the majority of the teaching faculty found some of his theories contentious, to say the least. some of our fellow seminar participants also perceived a distinct scent of the ol' Nihonjinron, which usually just doesn't bear up under proper scrutiny.

as i recall, the gentleman who rather ruined Kono-sensei's demonstration of his amazing aiki wasn't Randy (i don't remember the face-touching antics, though they probably happened), but another participant of even greater physical stature. sadly, his name escapes.

as for the nanba-aruki issue, i suspect the term might be nanban-aruki, none other than "Southern Barbarian Walking". Kono was very keen on this "japanese-style vs. western style" issue, and it wouldn't surprise me if such a term actually existed before Kono began his research. suri-ashi is just the sliding step employed most commonly in traditional japanese theatre, tea, and of course many martial arts settings. i believe this was the standard indoor walking style for japanese.

gmellis
20th September 2002, 04:48
For someone who hasn't studied a combative koryu, this Kono twirp sure writes prolificly on the topic. Go to a bookstore here and you'll see this gaunt dude's picture or name on some book on bushido and kobudo and the like. I took one look inside one, read the table of content and with an "Oh brother" duly closed it and put it back. Seeing his pictures of some "deadly" waza or "scaary" pose are also a good chuckle. I believe I stopped reading Hiden within 3 months after discovering it because this clown and some other weirdo Tai Chi/New Age fruits (no offense to legitimate Tai Chi with practical combat applications) were constantly appearing in it. But then, there are only so many things you can say about koryu and budo in general for a monthly magazine before you have to start phoning up the lunatic asylum looking for topics for articles.

Soulend
20th September 2002, 04:49
Thanks all for the suri-ashi info. Funikoshi did state that this was the 'fashionable' way of walking when he was young, and I did not get the impression that he was referring to karateka or other martial artists only, but rather that many people walked around like this in their daily lives. Apparently, long after it fell out of common use he was still walking this way, and people use to enquire if he had hurt his legs, or got the impression that he was feeble.

pgsmith
20th September 2002, 05:42
Hi Greg,
I don't know if you should dismiss Kono that lightly. According to an old interview by Stan Pranin for Aikido Journal, Kuroda Sensei used to study jujutsu with him. Bugei still has a copy of that article on their web site as they sponser Kuroda Sensei for seminars a couple times a year.

Cheers,

George Kohler
20th September 2002, 07:44
Originally posted by pgsmith
According to an old interview by Stan Pranin for Aikido Journal, Kuroda Sensei used to study jujutsu with him.

Hi Paul,

I thought he was helped by Kondo Katsuyuki, not Kono Yoshinori. I could be wrong though.

gmellis
20th September 2002, 09:17
He may be a whompin stompin bad mutha..(shutcho mouth!), and if he is, I will apologize to him, but I still can't stand over-philosophizing regarding budo. I don't think there is a whole lot to the practice of budo itself. Like that funny quote attributed to Meik Skoss goes: "This point goes in first." Principles are good. Philosophy is good. In doses. But not fourteen books (and counting) worth. Perhaps he wouldn't irk me so much if he actually practiced (another than Ninjer Star Throwin') one of the acknowledged traditional arts he writes about, or if he would stick with the history and culture and stay away from the
For those who can read it, check out the book list and especially the titles of the books on his homepage...
http://www.shouseikan.com/chosho.htm
You'll notice he comes out with one every year or other year. Gotta make a living somehow I guess.

By the way, referring to the walking method, I found this link describing Kono's assertion that Japanese walked that way once upon a time. Give it a read.
http://www.sccs.chukyo-u.ac.jp/ICCS/olp/p2-41/p2-41.htm

Nathan Scott
21st September 2002, 00:51
Greg, interesting link. I hear what your saying about over-theorizing. To a degree, I figure theorizing is what you do when your not training in the dojo or practicing on your own. It is the proper time for the mental aspects of the training. However, as you point out, this can be taken too far, to the exclusion of regular training, and then you often end up with empty theory.

I've also seen the results of extensive book research that is not backed up by the benefits of a qualifed instructor to refer to. Mostly correct, but some facts are misunderstood slightly, and there is nobody to correct them.

Kono was the person that worked with Kuroda Tetsuzan Sensei, not Kondo Sensei. Kuroda Sensei credits Kono quite a bit for his assistance in discussing theories and being his "mirror", but I don't know who brought more into the relationship in this regard. It sounds as though Kono is taking the full credit for a lot of his theories (?).

I do find it hard to believe that ALL Japanese used to walk in the nanba aruki fashion all the time. It makes sense combatively, but seems like wasted effort in most other contexts.

According to the YSgR enbu tape I just found, Shimazu Sensei states:

"This is the way a bushi walked. As mentioned before, this is referred to as the Culture of Nanba. This way of walking appears in all the ancient writings and picture scrolls. This way of walking is the basis for all techniques."

Going back to "nanba", if we are talking about Osaka, the term apparently refers to Minatomachi specifically, which is in the Minami area of downtown Osaka.

Regards,

Chris Li
21st September 2002, 02:48
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
"This is the way a bushi walked. As mentioned before, this is referred to as the Culture of Nanba. This way of walking appears in all the ancient writings and picture scrolls. This way of walking is the basis for all techniques."

Going back to "nanba", if we are talking about Osaka, the term apparently refers to Minatomachi specifically, which is in the Minami area of downtown Osaka.

Regards,

In Japanese "nanba" is usually written in katakana, mainly because the root kanji are not clear. The two most likely candidates seem to be "nanba" as in "a difficult situation", the reasoning being that that type of walking is more difficult than normal walking, and "nanba" as in "southern barbarians", the reasoning here being the origins of the practice in Japan's far past. Some people claim that it developed as a dance term. The Osaka "nanba" doesn't seem to be a popular theory, but you never know :).

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
25th September 2002, 03:01
I think Chris was referring to the term "nanban". On the demo tape, Shimazu S. definitey says "nanba".

Don't make me go out and buy a book on YSgR in Japanese just to figure this out!!

:D

Chris Li
25th September 2002, 03:20
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I think Chris was referring to the term "nanban". On the demo tape, Shimazu S. definitey says "nanba".

It's the same kanji, but "nanba" is a variant reading (which is probably why most people write it in katakana). Anyway, you motivated me to look it up - the word is indeed "nanban" (read "nanba" in this case), and according to the Daijirin it comes from Kabuki and Japanese dance.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
25th September 2002, 03:30
Originally posted by Yobina
>> Chris Li said, "nanba" as in "southern barbarians", Southern? Barbarians? Who would this be in reference to then? Foreigners? <<

update: obviously, Chris beat me to the punch with his post.

actually, it was me that brought up the "southern barbarians" angle, and just to be clear, the term is usually nanban; nanba is given only as an alternate pronunciation. speaking honestly, i have no idea if the term "nanban-aruki" even exists; it was just an off-the-cuff hypothesis. the upthread Kono-sensei holds dear the notion that japanese people changed their theoretical traditional way of walking (arm and leg of the same side of the body moving in the same direction at the same time) to conform to the "western" method following the Meiji Restoration. i thought that there might be a connection there.

according to the Kojien, the term "southern barbarians" originally referred to the various island "nations" of south-east asia and their peoples. it came to be used in reference to portuguese and spanish traders who passed through those colonies on their way to japan. the "southern" bit stems from the direction of arrival for those ships. the japanese observed that they all came from the south and just lumped them together. the barbarian component should need no explanation ... surely, when your own ethnic group is descended directly from the gods everyone else has to be a lesser form of life. even in recent times you'll find terms which incorporate nanban as a prefix.

it's also correct, it seems, to use nanba in reference to a section of Osaka, or to a difficult/tricky situation or scene. what they have to do with walking is probably as people have explained it upthread.

Charles Mahan
26th September 2002, 18:43
For what it's worth, and it's probably not worth much...


There was a story on NPR a few years ago. Think it was on All Things considered concerning a recent attempts to revive an old style of walking in Japan. It did indeed involve walking with the left arm sync'd to the left leg and vice versa. I cannot remember the name of this style, but the explanation was that it was an old style of walking meant to add to the mystic of the Noble classes. It was meant to help distinguish between the Japanese aristocratic class and the commoners. Wish I could remember the name they used for it.

I'm suprised Mr. Bieler doesn't remember more about it as we discussed it before class shortly after I heard the story.

Jack B
26th September 2002, 22:04
Sorry, Charles. I though everybody walked like that.

Jack Bieler

Nathan Scott
27th September 2002, 00:03
I searched the NPR online archive for anything related to "Japan" (20 pages) and the piece was not there. Unfortunately, the archive only appears to go back as far as 2000.

I've emailed NPR asking them about this, and will let ya'll know if they get anything worthwhile back to me.

Regards,