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Michael Plank
14th September 2002, 20:06
I am not a student of karate. I have been exposed to some in my time, along with some kung-fu, but I really don't know much at all about striking arts. I can't discuss them intelligently. That's why I've come to you chaps. Where do you chamber your fists in your style and why? I've seen different methods of training and heard different reasoning for the different placements, but I wanted to start a discussion of these differences and hear all the reasons. Of course, some people (boxers and the like, more modern people) don't really chamber their fists for a strike, they just have a guard up all the time, but I'm interested in the traditional placement of your fists by your hips or armpits. Thanks, I hope this can provide some interesting discussion.

Michael Plank

hector gomez
15th September 2002, 01:43
Never question sensei boy,just do as your told.

Hector gomez:laugh:

John Lindsey
15th September 2002, 02:42
Hector, I think this is a valid question and I am interesting in hearing more about it...

hector gomez
15th September 2002, 03:16
I agree John,this question has the potential to be a real great barnburner.

Hector Gomez:D

Bustillo, A.
15th September 2002, 10:31
Not all the karate styles chamber the fist.

Among others, except fot a few basic warm-up drills, Ashihara Karate and Enshin do not emdorce the fist by the hip or ribs.

Steven Malanosk
15th September 2002, 15:01
Hello,

CHAMBER, is the position, from which a blow or technique comes from.

As a standard basic in GoJu, we chamber high, next to the pectoral, as opposed to the popular hip chamber of the Shuri Te oriented systems.

In actuality, a chamber, is the position which capacitates the next movement in a scenerio. So there are many variations, situation dictating the rule.

Capacitation, is a better word, when not dealing with KIHON or basic movement, but actual flow of technique in sequential execution.



Me, I like sleepin, specially in Molly's CHAMBER. But here I am in prison. Here I am with ball and chain yeah! Whisky in the Jaro, METALLICA

Victor
15th September 2002, 15:31
Chambering seems to have several layers of distinct usage. The practice in kata to develop the technique energy flow more crisply.

First, it contributes to a reciprocal motion of striking.

Second, the retracting hand can be a grabbing and pulling hand. allowing the extruding hand to strike, throw, etc.

Third, the retracting hand carries one heck of a slicing motion to tear up an opponent or to slice across any limb being offered, while it retracts to chamber.

Fourth, the retracting hand into chamber is actually a very simple secret. You've been grabbed from the rear and you're blasting back with a rearward elbow strike....oooops I let the cat out of the bag. The location of the chamber seems to indicate a preference where the rearward elbow strike lands.

Fifth, a friend in the Chinese arts maintains the area of the lower chamber is actually a blocking position to keep from being struck in that area.

Those system which don't use chambering in kata (or even don't use kata) may not choose to use any of the above. Their choice. But they all work for me. And I always feel what you don't practice, you may not be actually able to execute.

All other forms of chambering, are discrete between my wife and myself.

Sincerely,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Sochin
15th September 2002, 16:48
I was told / or read somewhere that the waist chamber came in with the notion of using the whip of the waist snapping to the front to "throw" the fist out, creating speed and power. I forget who they attributed this method of punching too as the inovator.

CEB
15th September 2002, 17:23
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk


Me, I like sleepin, specially in Molly's CHAMBER. But here I am in prison. Here I am with ball and chain yeah! Whisky in the Jaro, METALLICA

I prefer Thin Lizzy.

Steven Malanosk
15th September 2002, 17:36
Yup, gotta give the Black Irishman his props.

I figured most where not old enough to remember.

Ron Rompen
15th September 2002, 18:08
As someone already pointed out, in Goju Ryu we chamber high. However, when I started in MA, I was studying Hap Ki Do, and we were taught to chamber low, near the waist.

Michael Plank
15th September 2002, 18:50
So Goju Ryu and Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (I talked to my uncle, a Yondan in Shorin Ryu about that one) tend to chamber up under the arms (am I correct in believing that these are the two oldest extant schools of Karate?) while newer schools seem to have dropped the to the hips chamber or moved it away altogether? It seems like there must be advantages and disadvantages to wherever you put your hands. Like I say, this is pretty much an academic question for me, since I don't really train striking arts, and I would obviously always do what Sensei told me. Out of general curiousity and self-betterment, though, I am really interested in what you guys have to say on the subject.

This is less related to this site, but do any of you know how various kung fu and other Chinese styles chamber?

Thanks again,

Mike "Never questions Sensei" Plank

RunnerX
15th September 2002, 19:57
Give this one a shot....if you have to chamber.

For maximization of power and directness to target, chamber your fist here: find where the elbow touches your body when your arm hangs down by your side with the shoulder relaxed.

Now, stand in front of a wall, and mark a few targets on it. Punch *very* slowly at each target from chamber positions varying from up high, down low, or where the elbow touches your body.

I believe you'll find that chambering where the elbow touches is the way that feels better in terms of relaxation of shoulder muscles and directness of fist trajectory.

John Georgas

Steven Malanosk
15th September 2002, 20:31
The same variables exist from style to style in the Chinese martial arts. Incidentally, GoJu Ryu IS an extrapilation, of Chinese Fukien Chuan Fa.

Tatsu
16th September 2002, 02:00
Chambering is for arm flexibilty and tendon training. It is prevalent in many Shaolin based systems, and as a matter of fact, in Chinese styles like Shaolin Luohan Chuan the chamber is low. I doubt that there is a correlation between the age of a style and chambering method.

This is actually a complicated training device. Enhanced structural "ki" is dependent upon how high, low or far back you chamber. Chambering is an integral tool in teaching arm controls and other Tuite techs. Chambering also teaches one to keep your elbows in and not wing your punches. There is much more to this, but I don't feel like typing up a novellete, so I'll leave it at that.

BTW, Matsubayashi Shorin is not the oldest style of ShuriTe, nor is it the youngest. I think Nagamine Soke adopted the high chambering methods of one of his teachers, Choki Motobu. When fighting nobody ever chambers unless they are none-too-swift. 99% of karateka adopt a traditional boxing "on-guard" position. Those styles that don't train in chambering are usually modernized Japanese systems that don't include Okinawan Tuite in their teaching curriculum. I don't think that learning to chamber was ever interpreted as a fighting position, but more of a training device. If your style doesn't teach you chambering then your probably just doing kickboxing.

CEB
16th September 2002, 02:55
Originally posted by Tatsu
Chambering is for arm flexibilty and tendon training. It is prevalent in many Shaolin based systems, and as a matter of fact, in Chinese styles like Shaolin Luohan Chuan the chamber is low. I doubt that there is a correlation between the age of a style and chambering method.....

Yes, But how about a coorelation between Northern and Southern systems. Wing Tsun and Ngo Cho Kuen chamber high. Both are considered Southern systems I believe. Do Northern systems tend to chamber low and Southern high or is this too gross a generalization? After all China is a pretty big place.

Steven Malanosk
16th September 2002, 04:00
Kicks in the North
Fists in the South

An old adage.

High chambers in the South
Low chambers in the North.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, this may be the beginning, of a new adage. :idea:

hector gomez
16th September 2002, 04:04
Bryan,

I don't have a problem with just doing kickboxing,as a matter of fact
Kickboxing teaches one the realities of what happens if you exchange multiple head blows with a worthy opponent and why it is so important to have your hands up in a guard position at all times.

The chamber in karate,I believe goes hand in hand with the philosophy and theory that one punch kills,"YOU CANNOT BANK ON THAT" because if someone sacrifices their defense in order to land one punch it can definitley be dangerous in a non stop continous fight,I am specifing continuos because in most dojos or karate tournaments the emphamsis is on one blow and stop.

If that does not apply to you ,because you train with bogu gear on in a continous non stop enviorement,and you train with a worthy partner without stoping to acknowledge a blow,I don't see how you can possibly fight effectively with your hands on your waist or upper chest side.

If your big gripe is that boxing gloves change everything because of their bulkines and that you can do more damage instantly without the gloves in a real situation,my answer to that is,most any type of martial art is effective against the typical joe blow walking down the street but one should always train to fight a trained fighter instead of the regular joe,just to be safe and better prepared.



One can probably deliver a very fast or quick punch from a chamber position but at what defensive expense?If I happen to not kill or maim you with that one blow have I sacrificed being countered.

Boxers keep their hands up at all times specificaly for blocking purposes,it is probably more effective to slip,weave,parry and block with your forearms and shoulders than it is to go out of your guard to block anything,this is especially dangerous if my back hand is by my waist.


In closing,I know my opinions are probably in the minority on this forum,I could live with that"NO PROBLEMA",I could also live with just doing kickboxing as far as strike/training is concerned.

If someone doubts the effectiveness of boxing for self defense,yes on the streets "Mano a mano" because of the so called unrealistic large glove,I suggest you take a look at the N.H.B competitions that are held around the world especially in brazil,and most european countries were the gloves are not used(not even small ones like in the U.F.C or pride)at all.

Please tell me what striking arts most of all of these practicioners practice karate or kickboxing?and remember they are fighting bare knuckles.

Hector Gomez

PS.Im sorry, I just realized these events are sports and not reality based like the streets,this totaly invalidates my whole notion.



Hector Gomez
:D

kusanku
16th September 2002, 09:19
If 'tis of any help here,in the Okinawan kenpo system, no one ever, ever chambers anywhere in sparring with bogu, always both hands were kept in front either high, middle and high or middle and low, changing to boxing guard as opponent gets in boxing range or you get your bell rang fast and hard.

This was supposed to come from Motobu's kumite , where one always punches from right where you got your hand, so you best get it in front and keep it there.Also, you never punched with a twist in kumite.Short uppercuts, shovel hooks, hooks and uppercuts, and backfists were thrown a lot.

But in kata and self defense apps, the chambers were used for all that Victor said they are for.Okinawan Kenpo is rib chamber, where in the kata chamber is used and it isn't like that in all of them, some have one hand guarding while other strikes like Wanshu, or guard hand stays in front while rear hand punches as in seisan, for instance.

Old style Mendoza Boxing, from 1800, used a chamnber technique to block a kidney punch, I tried this, it works.Just like the answer the phone , looking a little like a front elbow strike, works to block an uppercut.Given of course, proper timing otherwise, cauliflower ear results.

I guess, the armpit chamber, or rib or hip chamber, must be for self defense usage, where the hands up as a boxer or as a karate fighter, against attacks and for attacks, is for fighting, and for close in, the sanchin guard or boxer guard is used.Hand up around dawse ears, that is.Chin down, teeth closed, throat covered. groiun protected by legs, knees flexed, maybe fifty fifty weight distrib or ninety ten on rear leg so leg can evade, never a low front stance for fighting,looks a lot like a good old boxer really.

I do know the Chinese systems use chamber,I wonder if it all comes from spear or staff work, I was watrching this medieval movie called the Black Shield of Falmouth, a ripoff of Ivanhoe, and when they went to jousdting, as they began to charge, they 'couched their lance, and the rib chamber showed up snugging the lance in to hold the aim steady.I thought, who taught them guys Okinawan Karate?:D

So, mebbe it came from there too.It can in fact be used to strike rear elbow backwards, and also twist and pull an opponent in, won't work in a boxing match though, fer sure.Leaces one wqhole side of your body and both sides of your head wide open, and we all heard about karate black belts geting'their heads whopped that way.

Nuvver happened to the Kenpo bogu guys though, anyone got close up came both hands, usually into the attacker, heck with blocking, make Them Block, we used to say.Its a fact, if someone throws a whole crap pot of hands in your face, you gonna panic, block or punch back, most panic.Heh.What they taught us to do, since we used armor or not, sometimes, was to throw as many right back at them as we could.

Which is pretty much what a lot of boxers do when they are toe to toe as they say.Blocking is a great theory, but it requires distance to make it work, and an opponent who ain't all over you with punches and what not.

Too, if a guy starts in with hands and you see it first, kick him one or two, then move in yourself with some good hands.

I should mention the Kenpo chamber for basic and some kata, though,has the rear hand over the heart, solar plexus or xiphoid, the forear protects the floating ribs on one side, and the front hand is in chudan uke, its the Okinawan curved morote uke position, at a distance, and when they get into punching range its a boxing guard.

If standing sideways, both the rear hand, had the fist at the front rib facing the oppnent, and the front hand was extended out or slightly in, in a backfist guard, both hands could be thrown from that position, one after the other or simultaneously, with full power, and if opponent closed( when, actually)you turn in and boxing guard again.

All I got on chamber, except yes, Matsubayashi uses armpit, but for combat, its from wherever the hands are, and they are trained from relaxed position, all techniques.

Funakoshi also said that all techniques should be trained to be thrown from wherever they happen to be, and used to punch makiwara from relaxed natural stance with hands at sides.

After all, wherre your hands gonna be when someone jumps you who you didn't see coming?

Bustillo, A.
16th September 2002, 11:30
Keeping the hands chambered next to yoour hips or ribs when taking a fighting position is counterproductive. No doubt, most who train will be able to shoot out a hard, fast devasting punch from the chambered fist. Even so, once the fight starts the main reason to keep your hands up by the face and the elbows tucked is for protection.

A fighting stance is--suppose to be-- an on-guard, keep your body protected as much as possible at all times position

Leaving your hands down by your torso, during the fight, exposes too many targets.

Goju Man
16th September 2002, 12:49
Didn't someone get ko'd in the Pride before last because of dropping his rear hand while striking?? :D

If 'tis of any help here,in the Okinawan kenpo system, no one ever, ever chambers anywhere in sparring with bogu, always both hands were kept in front either high, middle and high or middle and low, changing to boxing guard as opponent gets in boxing range or you get your bell rang fast and hard.
John, there must be a reason for it. A good thing about bogu is that you can tell by the thud on your helmet that you'd best get that guard up.:D I guess in kata, you don't have to worry about getting hit.:D

Steven Malanosk
16th September 2002, 14:19
I think my point was missed.

Dig this:

Vignette 1.
My hands are in my pockets.

I raise my elbows, as to remove my hands from pockets.

I bring my hands level with my elbows on the horizontal facing the opponent.

I have now done the most direct capacitation = chamber, for a straight shot.

From pockets to opponent.

Vignette 2.
As I throw a lunge punch or stiff jab, I have my other hand guarding my head, with elbow close.

I am capacitated = chambered for the reverse punch, etc.

Vignette 3.
When I strike with a cross elbow,
I am automatically capacitated = chambered for a back fist.

Chambering, is placement of the hands, for the next technique in the flow, wherever they may be.

I was speaking of a more free form mentality.

In Kihon mentality = basic GoJu chamber next to the pectoral, the hands are kept up for horizontal movement, and extrapolations after that. But nobody actually assumes this position cold.

gentlebear
16th September 2002, 16:38
Does you fist chamber low?

Can you swing it to and fro?

Can you tie it in a knot?

Can you tie it in a bow?

Can you throw it over your shoulder

Like a continental soldier?

Does your fist chamber low?

gentlebear
16th September 2002, 16:41
Ooooops! Sorry guys! I'm new at this and forgot to sign my post.


Karl Mark, Shihan

Michael Plank
16th September 2002, 19:19
Thanks a lot, guys, keep the posts coming.

Mike Plank

Tatsu
17th September 2002, 00:55
Originally posted by hector gomez
Bryan,


.

The chamber in karate,I believe goes hand in hand with the philosophy and theory that one punch kills,"YOU CANNOT BANK ON THAT" because if someone sacrifices their defense in order to land one punch it can definitley be dangerous in a non stop continous fight,I am specifing continuos because in most dojos or karate tournaments the emphamsis is on one blow and stop.

If that does not apply to you ,because you train with bogu gear on in a continous non stop enviorement,and you train with a worthy partner without stoping to acknowledge a blow,I don't see how you can possibly fight effectively with your hands on your waist or upper chest side.

If your big gripe is that boxing gloves change everything because of their bulkines and that you can do more damage instantly without the gloves in a real situation,my answer to that is,most any type of martial art is effective against the typical joe blow walking down the street but one should always train to fight a trained fighter instead of the regular joe,just to be safe and better prepared.



One can probably deliver a very fast or quick punch from a chamber position but at what defensive expense?If I happen to not kill or maim you with that one blow have I sacrificed being countered.

Boxers keep their hands up at all times specificaly for blocking purposes,it is probably more effective to slip,weave,parry and block with your forearms and shoulders than it is to go out of your guard to block anything,this is especially dangerous if my back hand is by my waist.


In closing,I know my opinions are probably in the minority on this forum,I could live with that"NO PROBLEMA",I could also live with just doing kickboxing as far as strike/training is concerned.

If someone doubts the effectiveness of boxing for self defense,yes on the streets "Mano a mano" because of the so called unrealistic large glove,I suggest you take a look at the N.H.B competitions that are held around the world especially in brazil,and most european countries were the gloves are not used(not even small ones like in the U.F.C or pride)at all.

Please tell me what striking arts most of all of these practicioners practice karate or kickboxing?and remember they are fighting bare knuckles.

Hector Gomez

PS.Im sorry, I just realized these events are sports and not reality based like the streets,this totaly invalidates my whole notion.



Hector Gomez
:D

Sport or on the street nobody that knows how to squab' fights with their hands in a karate/chuan fa chamber. Chambering IS A TRAINING TOOL AS I SAID BEFORE, AND IS A PART OF GRAPPLING TRAINinG (TUITE) IN OKINAWAN KARATE. IT IS ALSO A LIMBERING AND STRENGTHENING EXERCISE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T DO WEIGHT BEARING EXERCISES.

I think I said that before. AS for kickboxing as a street defense thin: Yes it is a very effective means to defend yourself against a street thug. There is nothing wrong with just training in a kickboxing style for fitness, sport or self defense. I just think that the aim of traditional arts (Karate, JJ and Judo in particular) is a little different. A little more faceted, if that makes since.

Westerners like the quick fix. Many modern arts provide this and neglect decades of research and tradition. That's cool. Not every Jew is orthodox, but a Hacidic Jew is just as orthodox and correct in their view as an Orthodox Hebrew. It's a personal preference thing.

I'm not dissing Modern karate or kickboxing styles. I love Kyokushinkai and Ashihara as well as Muay Thai and Superfoot kickboxing or whatever. No need to call yourself karate if you do kickboxing, though. That's it. Maybe you misread my post. Have a great week, sir!

Tatsu
17th September 2002, 01:26
Uchichiesu, or the concept of the one decisive blow, should not be interpreted so linearly. It includes tactics AND strategy, the mental and physical. This "one punch, one kill" hogwash is a product of Japanese Karate. The original Hogan term "Uchichiesu" doesn't use the word "punch" exclusively, but rather the word for "strike or blow".

I should thank you Hector for reiterating many of the same points I made in my original reply. You do understand that we concur and not disagree on many aspects of this thread. If not go back and read my reply again.

As for the Northern/Southern thing. I guess you are right Ed, but I don't know if it's a universal thing. Both regions probably have a great influence on the martial traditions of Asia, let alone the Ryukyus and Japan which are very close to it. Nothing exists in a vacuum. I think for the most part your assertion is on point, sir.


Don't forget to protect your neck with the "invisible wall"...

Goju Man
17th September 2002, 03:07
Chambering IS A TRAINING TOOL AS I SAID BEFORE, AND IS A PART OF GRAPPLING TRAINinG (TUITE) IN OKINAWAN KARATE. IT IS ALSO A LIMBERING AND STRENGTHENING EXERCISE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T DO WEIGHT BEARING EXERCISES.
How is it a strength exercise? As for being a limbering exercise fine. But no need to do the exercise when doing training. I spent very many years chambering, I can grapple, strike or do whatever need doing, and the only thing I really learned from chambering was that it's a terribly hard habit to break.
John, you said it's not for self defense but it is for fighting? What's the difference? Isn't that what bogu kumite is for? It's difficult for me to separate the two.

Regards,;)

yiyo
17th September 2002, 03:09
Bryan.
Could you please elaborate for us on how the chamber training tool works in relationship to grappling in Okinawan tuite.??
Exactly how is this training tool suppose to work and what on theory is it based on.??

Peter
Yiyo

kusanku
17th September 2002, 03:34
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]Didn't someone get ko'd in the Pride before last because of dropping his rear hand while striking?? :D

'Keep the hands up by your head,
or pretty quick you'll be brain-dead.:D




John, there must be a reason for it. A good thing about bogu is that you can tell by the thud on your helmet that you'd best get that guard up.:D

Since the helmet is not braced and a head blow can jar your neck really good, there's even better reasons to keep 'em up.


I guess in kata, you don't have to worry about getting hit.:D

I imagine that was why kata, like shadow-boxing, was developed, so's you could practice your combos without fear of getting walloped whilst perfecting your fine moves.:D

Again., the chamber is a defense against getting grabbed by the arm or wirst, the indispensable prelim to a lot of Jiujitsu or chin na moves that otherwise can incapacitate one. If one however, steps up and chambers ofr pulls back and twist/chambers,while hitting with the other hand, the opponent is yanked in off balance and struck simultaneously. But no, it won't work if both are dancing and boxing/kickboxing.Too, we didn't have enough bogu at our dojo and so often fought contact without armor, so guards became extremely important on the way in to clobbering range.To use a technical term peculiar to that time and place.:D

Get past clobbering range and it was Judo Time!

kusanku
17th September 2002, 04:03
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]
How is it a strength exercise? As for being a limbering exercise fine. But no need to do the exercise when doing training. I spent very many years chambering, I can grapple, strike or do whatever need doing, and the only thing I really learned from chambering was that it's a terribly hard habit to break.


Yes, especially if taught that it is how to fight, as it isn't.



John, you said it's not for self defense but it is for fighting?

I think I said the chamber is for self defense but not for fighting.
I think I said that. Not sure now.:D


What's the difference?

Self defense is for when someone jumps you before you know they are coming, before you can get ready.So a chamber which is the Judo counter, to a grab and armlock or wristlock attempt, step up or back and pull in your arm and fist to side, just as in karate,is for when I am minding my own business ytoo much and some jerk grabs me, before I see him coming and can vector into my jiyu kamae, fighting stance, so as to level him and his whole neighborhood with my devastating side thrust kick etc.:D

So, I am standing there, and some dude jumps from nowehre and I have had this happen, into my face and says Hey! and grabs me with intent to do whatever,and I chamber as I smack him with a shotei in the jaw or something a la Jon Bluming.If I didn't chamber, maybe I still do it, but if he were a grappler, I might now be in trouble.

This is self defense, I smack him, get away, maybe follow up if can't.But it isn't a fight.

A fight is, a guy shows up, says, Hey, you! Let's go, I heard you think you all that, and we shuffle and dance, smack thud wham, but both were able to commence fighting unencumbered. This anyway, is how I see it.In other words, if you see 'em coming and can get 'em up intime, that's a fight.

if they are allasudden in your face and no chance to get 'em up and they do whatever but you still have time to move, that is self defense. Now, one can become the other, real easy.But this is why self defense is taught against single attacks and so forth, while fighting is about combinations.


Isn't that what bogu kumite is for?

Bogu Kumite is the sport element of Okinawan Kenpo, free fighting system.It is taught to learn courage, how to smack the bejasus out of people, and genltemanly sportsmanship, Okay, maybe not so much the last one.But it has rules, no strikes or kicks below the wais except sweeps, no blindsiding or spine strikes, no grabs to the helmet, and throwing is considered unsportsmanlike.Which doesn't mean it never happens.

However, there is a practice done without bogu called shinken shobu kumite, which is a no rules,but no contact and slower motion sparring that imitates a dead earnest street battle.

Bogu Kumite is primnarily to teach one what a real fight, not self defesne is like, without as much danger as there would be for real.

Self defense or Goshinjutsu is taught in Kenpo as a series of Jiujitsu like techniques with partners against preset attacks ranging from a wrist or lapel grab to multiple weaponms scenarios.It is intended not as reality training, but as technical knowledge, what will actually work, mechanically, against a particular attack, punch, kick, grab, hold, throw attempt, club attack, two man grab and so on.

We also sparred against multiple attackers and got the crap beaten out of us. Against rubber daggers and got cut the crap out of. This to show what reality is like again, without geting us kilt.

The Kenpo Goshinjutsu series were called six inch self defense techniques as thats how close the opponent is when you execute.Its jiujitsu pure and simple but all the moves, one later finds, come from the various basic kata.Some involve no more than a parry as you step and turn and punch, strike or kick.Others involve reversing or neutralizinfg holds, countering in simple but nasty ways, often featuring elbows, knees and hammerfists.Its nothing fancy, believe it.


It's difficult for me to separate the two.

I guess its like, if you fight me, you respect me, so you got your guard up, and protect yourself, and I can't get one of the jiujitsu techniques on you so easy.If you attack me, you think, I got this dude, now, and you come in wide open, and I get mon technique on you, and down you go, no more to it.

So, someone says, like, 'How you ever gonna get a two handed cross punch into a neck, and I say, well, if you grab both my lapels and try a head butt, its real easy, I just throw and when you get halfway to target to clop yourself on my hands, that's self defense, but if you come in dancing, shuffling, hands up, watching me, hey, it ain't gonna happen, then its kumite time, I get stance, shuffle, move, feint, kick low and strike high or vice versa, combination city, maybe I land some, maybe you do, that's a fight.Who wins, other things being equal, may depend on how much damage and pain each is willing to sustain for the reason they are fighting.

Self defense, again: Some joik sneaks up and gets a full nelson on me, I do Kenpo goshinjutsu which means I interlink both hands on my forehaed, he can't get the hold, I step around behind his leg and take him down with body motion, slam.Ain't no more fight cause if he tries to get up and hurt me some more, I will punch him, end of it, as many times as necesary, right?

A fight, I walk out the restaurant door and there he is in stance, blcking my way, door closed behind me, I gotta fight, I gets into some kinda stance and hands up, I throw a hand over his eyes and kick in to his groin,hammerfist his neck, knee him in the bread basket or thigh, walk over him with hob nailed boots.That's if I don't find something to smack him with.That's a fight. Garbage can lid, car antenna, ashtray, ballpoint pen, don't mess with me at the restaurant, I'm hungry and in no mood.:D

Sparring, that's a sport fight, rules, referees, armor, not, whatever, we go, its all according to play, and its hard and fast and tough, maybe more difficult that self defense or a fight, technically, because other fellow knows what you know and ain't gonna letcha do it.Theree things, sparring, fighting, self defense.

Kata and chambering belong to self defense.Aggression to fighting, and ring strategy to sparring or parking lot dueling.Which I do not recommend by the way.

Regards,

hector gomez
17th September 2002, 05:33
John,

That was very heavy and you even started to make some sense there,the only problem I have with that whole self defense v.s fighting concept thing is this, I personaly cannot tell the difference between the two ,actually what you are describing to me as far as your training for self defense goes,is very similar to the way aikido practicioners practice


EXAMPLE 1)you put your hand on my wrist,I grab youre wrist turn to the right 360 DEGREES and bingo he is flying around like a rag dog or EXAMPLE 2)The kung fu classic,opponent sneaks up behind me and bear hugs me around my body and arms,I ever so gently kick him in the nuts
with a upward back kick then as soon as he releases from the pain I elbow him in the midsection then to really add insult to injury I backfist him in the face with the same arm motion,cmon we can do better than that.

If fights or self defense in your case only really worked that way,I still have not seen any of those so called self defense apps work according to plan,the way that they are practiced in kata or thru prearranged self defense apps

Fighting or self defense,what ever the case may be should never be pre planned or mesmerized like, IF YOU DO THIS,I AM GOING TO DO THAT,
It should be very natural without any thoughts more like instinctive,the only way IMHO To achieve this state is thru training against live resisting opponents.


It is like a finger pointing away to the moon ,don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory,all kidding aside
,if you have to practice a self defense application let's say like when someone grabs you in a bear hug and your'e bodies senses does not automatically tell you that you have to drop your lower base and your center of gravitiy,it probably means you have not acquired much of that sense of feeling during actual live resisitence in grappling training,your body should without hesitation know were it needs to be at all times thru understanding live resistence.


This method should apply to grappling,the same as it applies to striking,bottom line John and you know this as well as anyone on this board,practice your striking with the same method or formula that you used for training in judo.

Hector Gomez

Victor
17th September 2002, 15:00
Chambering 102.1

Starting with the question why karate traditionally chambers the non-striking hand and what position it chambers at began the discussion. In part why do different systems do things differently, and why are things done that aren’t explained by instructors.

Of course as things begin, that left those who disbelieve the worth of traditional technique to change the topic to disbelief in the use of chambers. Logic being their system or style of fighting doesn’t chamber, keeping the opposing hand up to protect the head. Within the narrow vision they have of combat they’re quite correct.

Well there are vast differences between fighting an aware opponent and the traditional use of karate against random attack. And there are vast differences between what traditionally beginners were taught karate technique could be used for and what the complete usage of the system entailed. Some of which hasn’t been transferred as Karate moved along in the world, allowing entire generations to not look at the application of the chamber.

Simply, if you do anything and you 1) can’t drop an opponent with it (or the equivalent) or 2) can’t be developed to use the technique that way, its obvious that such is a wasted effort.

My own assumption is that there is a value to everything within the ‘traditional’ karate vocabulary, regardless of whether my instructor could or did tell, show or teach me.

So lets amble through the layers of what I see as chambering’s value.

1. Against an sudden grab from the rear. Every kata technique where you move forward with one technique (including those where you move rearward) and chamber one hand is building an automatic response against a grab from the rear. The sharper you chamber the sharper you strike back. Likewise double strikes become double rearward elbow strikes. They don’t necessarily finish an attacker, but they have the potential to create an opening for further response.

2. Against a sudden grab from the front or side. Traditionally the first self defense technique Isshinryu’s founder taught, was to counter a hand grab by sharply chambering that hand, snapping the hand from the grab.

3. Destroying an attacker with one technique. This is a concept many have real problem with today. It’s often corrupted to ‘one punch won’t stop a real attacker’. Of course they ignore the reality in boxing, on occasion a fight is finished with just one punch to the jaw. So one technique can stop a fight in the right circumstances.

The difficulty I believe people have is on several levels. First the confusion of what happens when you’re fighting a self aware attacker, looking for your attempt to nail them, and the attacker focused on destroying you and not focusing on the counter you’re going to use.

Of course the other issue is what is one technique. A piece of a movement, one movement or one series of movements all can fit that quantification. Now one’s intent should be to 1) try and do it with one technique and 2) be instantly ready to go the distance if you’re less than perfect.

But one technique may involve chambering.

Chambering is more than just retracting the hand. It’s retracting the hand while using correct body mechanics and then looking at the rest of the body’s technique. Hence if you grab somebody’s jacket collar and then sharply chamber that hand as you strike them with a reverse punch into the jaw/neck/side of the head, you’ first pulling the person off balance, into your zone of attack, and using the grab as a force multiplier to the strike. Their body isn’t free and can’t move away from the force of the punch so more of the impact is imparted into their body, creating more shock.

This applied force multiplier has as much to do with the reputation of chambering to create stronger strikes, as does the reciprocal nature of the chambering motion creating stronger strikes, too.

That may not simply finish one with one technique, but it certainly goes a long way towards that goal.

I’m not going further with the ‘one technique’ concept here, but it is a viable training concept. It just depends on what you’re training for.

4. Another view of the block then chamber as you punch sequence actually relates to the Chinese arts and the way some of those arts use chambering too. Especially in Northern Mantis (Tai Tong Long) and/or Northern Eagle Claw (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai), systems known for their grappling, the use of blocks as blocks is well quantified. They block to parry and set up the grab before the strike. The hand returning to chamber after a block is simply sliding down the arm to grab it and yank backwards. The difference between those Chinese Arts and Karate are more the manner in which they grab is more defined. Where karate simply grabbing and pulling would be used, they use more specific grabbing techniques working pressure points to be another force multiplier in the grab to maneuver the opponent to a better lane for striking, too.

5. It is from the Chinese model I would first maintain that the use of kata chambering is a strength building tool. There are several forms of strength being used. First the strength from using the body in a more coordinated manner. A weight lifter needs correct technique to lift huge weights as well as body power. Likewise precise kata practice, enhances strength. All of which is readily able to be demonstrated.

The second more hidden strength building technique is actually the way you tighten the hand as you chamber to build a stronger grip. This is not simply pulling your hand back. If you ever had the chance to train with somebody doing Eagle Claw for 20 or more years, you discover the great hand strength they have in their locks. One of the primary training tools is actually correct use of the hands in their complex forms. Correct use of chambering can strengthen the grip.

In the same manner, those karate systems who’ve included Kobodu have actually followed the Chinese model (likely unknowingly) where the practice of weapons actually is an incredible grip development tool, too.

Of course there are other aspects to enhance kata practice. Drills with partners, up to free sparing practices where grabbing and pulling while striking are permitted, do so too. The study of karate isn’t as simple as one tool, instead there’s an entire tool box involved.

6. Speaking of the Chinese systems. Northern systems like Northern Shaolin (Sil Lum), Northern Mantis (Tai Tong Long) and Northern Eagle Claw (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai). All chamber at the hip. But there are other systems of Chinese combat which don’t use it too. Such as Yang Tai Chi Chaun with no chambering and using a different paradigm for their combat practices (review Dr. Yang Jwing Ming’s work on advanced Tai Chi for ideas how this is done). Likewise from what I’ve observed Chinese wrestlers don’t chamber either. But the Chinese with thousands of systems, likely run the entire gamut of possibilities.

Some of the Northern System usage can be clearly seen in Tuttle’s publication this year of Shum Leung’s work on Eagle Claw.

7. Likewise, a great range of karate’s potential block, grab and chamber while striking doesn’t involve striking into the body. Instead the strikes can be shearing planes of force across the triceps insertion to become variations of arm bars, or as shearing planes of force across the neck. Each of which is striking with the forearm sliding across the target instead of the punch into the torso

This is where the opponent stick it out and you respond by using the strike to drive their face into the ground with a projection technique.

This is only an entry into a very large body of material.

Those who don’t see things this way won’t address this. Its always very easy, what you don’t practice (or believe) you really can’t do.

But in my opinion, you can eventually see the Okinawn arts as a very vast grappling system of study if you choose to see what actually is there.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

hector gomez
17th September 2002, 15:31
Ok, so sensei should have told me that those secret chamber retractions in the katas are really grab escapes& pulling counters for effective strikes,I really always new that but I would rather practice another kata anyway.


Yes I Practice kata it's called KUMI KATA you want to practice your
grip release & escapes in a practical and realistic way with a live resisiting opponent,try KUMI KATA(Judo term for grip fighting)it goes
like this get in front of your opponent and proceed to get your grip
on eachother sleeve ,collar or hand,now fight live resisitence to control and get the best position you can,practice breaking any dominant grip your opponent gets on you.

Now this is live resisitence,something that shows you and trains you the realities of real physical grab escapes.


Hector Gomez

Bustillo, A.
17th September 2002, 15:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Victor
[B]Chambering 102.1

Logic being their system or style of fighting doesn’t chamber, keeping the opposing hand up to protect the head. Within the narrow vision they have of combat they’re quite correct.

A.B.
*On waat basis do you state they have a narrow vision of combat? There are vast differences on that point you are correct.

Victor.
My own assumption is that there is a value to everything within the ‘traditional’ karate vocabulary, regardless of whether my instructor could or did tell, show or teach me.


A.B.
Value, no doubt. Yet, how much and have we come to understand, through trial and error, that perhaps other methods do offer more benefits.

Victor,
2.Against a sudden grab from the front or side. Traditionally the first self defense technique Isshinryu’s founder taught, was to counter a hand grab by sharply chambering that hand, snapping the hand from the grab.

A.B.
Good.

victor,
3. Destroying an attacker with one technique. This is a concept many have real problem with today. It’s often corrupted to ‘one punch won’t stop a real attacker’. Of course they ignore the reality in boxing, on occasion a fight is finished with just one punch to the jaw. So one technique can stop a fight in the right circumstances.


AB.
You said it, "on occasion'. The main point about all that is that you can't depend and beeter if you don't rely or wish for having the right circumstances.

On occasion, if I play my cards right and with the luck of having cards dealt in my favor, I have been lucky to win at Black Jack. Yet, lets look at the odds.

CEB
17th September 2002, 16:08
Originally posted by hector gomez
John,

...

Fighting or self defense,what ever the case may be should never be pre planned or mesmerized like, IF YOU DO THIS,I AM GOING TO DO THAT,
It should be very natural without any thoughts more like instinctive,the only way IMHO To achieve this state is thru training against live resisting opponents.

...
Hector Gomez


True. I hate to do the Zen thing but it is the way I was taught and it addresses this issue very well IMO.

I believe Hector I saying something to the likes that effective technique must come from mushin, without thought, pure instinctive action. The thing is, that the only way to develop Mushin is through Yushin, which is the opposite state, it is drilling it in your head until it becomes part of you. Somewhere don't you have to start with IF HE DOES THAT THEN I'LL DO THIS. Isn't this the elementary approach that most of us take when we first teach goshin jutsu. Maybe not I may be wrong on that.

My cousin told me when he was visiting last summer that his GJJ teacher calls eveything the 'thing you do'. If he grabs you like this ,the thing you do is' *demonstrate technique* or if he does this 'the thing you do' is this *demonstrate another technique*. He said that it made it hard on people who like to take notes because nothing really has a name. :) This sounds exactly like Or IF HE DOES THAT THEN I'LL DO THIS.

The genius of Kano was we can drill,drill, and drill to a high degree (maximizing yushin). But through randori our mushin can express itself and practicioners can chain techniques together in practically an infinite number of ways. Your technique can start to just happen. This is Hector's goal and John's goal also. But to forge the required tools to play against a real opponent you have to drill your waza ( IF HE DOES THIS THEN I DO THAT). You got to have both. Basically it is all just a whole lot of work.

Sorry about the drift these concepts are just more interesting and more important than a peeing contest over the usage of hikite. Personally there are many effective uses of hikite in my karate. Whether or not my study of oyo has revealed this to me or if it just my Judo and Jujutsu background expressing itself through my Karate I honestly don't know. This is an entirely different can of worms altogether ( i.e. my reverse engineering question from last year)



Train Hard, Train Often
Ed Boyd

Sochin
17th September 2002, 16:13
Perhaps,

since the "roots" of these styles go far back before the modern age,

perhaps even to an age where everyone went armed with sword, knife or both,

perhaps brawls all started with the need to draw your weapon or to cover it from being grabbed by an opponent and so being disarmed,

so that a hand move to the waist became de rigure, and later, when the need fell into disuse because personal weapons were outlawed by the Restoration, it became the place to "keep" the hand until you were ready to use it. Hmmm?

As I generally carry a knife, I find it intriguing and enlightening that when I do my kata, so often my hand would be covering my knife if I were in my street clothes.

Do we know if the waist chamber is Japanese (post 1920's) or Okinawan (pre 1920's)?

Tatsu
17th September 2002, 22:26
Originally posted by Goju Man

How is it a strength exercise? As for being a limbering exercise fine. But no need to do the exercise when doing training. I spent very many years chambering, I can grapple, strike or do whatever need doing, and the only thing I really learned from chambering was that it's a terribly hard habit to break.
John, you said it's not for self defense but it is for fighting? What's the difference? Isn't that what bogu kumite is for? It's difficult for me to separate the two.

Regards,;)

You are an Okinawan karate yudansha, right? Haven't you ever heard of tendon strengthening exercises. Yes, it is possible to strengthen tendons. Muscle strength is short term. When you are 60+ your muscle strength will decrease significantly. Then again for most people only the moment or tomorrow count. For some nothing exists beyond that, I guess.

Yiyo: Do you practice Okinawan karate? If not then I don't have the time to explain what ti, tuite, gyakute, tegumi or similar aspects of karate are. If you want to learn find a qualified traditional Okinawan stylist to teach you in person. If you are genuinely interested and aren't a groupie of Hector's then maybe I can give you a synopsis. Hell, you guys know everything about unarmed combat. Why do you need the explanation for something any real Okinawan stylist would know.

I'm sure John will tell you guys, but it ain't like you'll listen let alone vibe with our reality. Peaces...

You Flroida cats must be natural contrarians. I guess it's the New York "influence" mixed with some good-ole' boy skepticism. Train smart and use proper punctuation, haha!

Tatsu
17th September 2002, 22:50
Originally posted by Victor
Chambering 102.1

Of course as things begin, that left those who disbelieve the worth of traditional technique to change the topic to disbelief in the use of chambers. Logic being their system or style of fighting doesn’t chamber, keeping the opposing hand up to protect the head. Within the narrow vision they have of combat they’re quite correct.



Simply, if you do anything and you 1) can’t drop an opponent with it (or the equivalent) or 2) can’t be developed to use the technique that way, its obvious that such is a wasted effort.

2. Against a sudden grab from the front or side. Traditionally the first self defense technique Isshinryu’s founder taught, was to counter a hand grab by sharply chambering that hand, snapping the hand from the grab.

4. Another view of the block then chamber as you punch sequence actually relates to the Chinese arts and the way some of those arts use chambering too. Especially in Northern Mantis (Tai Tong Long) and/or Northern Eagle Claw (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai), systems known for their grappling, the use of blocks as blocks is well quantified. They block to parry and set up the grab before the strike. The hand returning to chamber after a block is simply sliding down the arm to grab it and yank backwards. The difference between those Chinese Arts and Karate are more the manner in which they grab is more defined. Where karate simply grabbing and pulling would be used, they use more specific grabbing techniques working pressure points to be another force multiplier in the grab to maneuver the opponent to a better lane for striking, too.

5. It is from the Chinese model I would first maintain that the use of kata chambering is a strength building tool. There are several forms of strength being used. First the strength from using the body in a more coordinated manner. A weight lifter needs correct technique to lift huge weights as well as body power. Likewise precise kata practice, enhances strength. All of which is readily able to be demonstrated.

6. Speaking of the Chinese systems. Northern systems like Northern Shaolin (Sil Lum), Northern Mantis (Tai Tong Long) and Northern Eagle Claw (Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai). All chamber at the hip. But there are other systems of Chinese combat which don’t use it too. Such as Yang Tai Chi Chaun with no chambering and using a different paradigm for their combat practices (review Dr. Yang Jwing Ming’s work on advanced Tai Chi for ideas how this is done). Likewise from what I’ve observed Chinese wrestlers don’t chamber either. But the Chinese with thousands of systems, likely run the entire gamut of possibilities.

Some of the Northern System usage can be clearly seen in Tuttle’s publication this year of Shum Leung’s work on Eagle Claw.

7. Likewise, a great range of karate’s potential block, grab and chamber while striking doesn’t involve striking into the body. Instead the strikes can be shearing planes of force across the triceps insertion to become variations of arm bars, or as shearing planes of force across the neck. Each of which is striking with the forearm sliding across the target instead of the punch into the torso

This is where the opponent stick it out and you respond by using the strike to drive their face into the ground with a projection technique.

This is only an entry into a very large body of material.

Those who don’t see things this way won’t address this. Its always very easy, what you don’t practice (or believe) you really can’t do.

But in my opinion, you can eventually see the Okinawn arts as a very vast grappling system of study if you choose to see what actually is there.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith

Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Victor- that was an outstanding explanation. How's research going? You really are a breath of fresh air to traditional karate. There are so many "haters" out there right now, that will claim an imperfect sport is the perfect self-defense system. You study your artform and try to understand it instead of letting others sway your opinion with singular, limited ideas. We can't all agree on everything, but some find it easier to get through life without agreeing about anything. It's what they see and want it to be. You discover truths for yourself. Good luck in training and thanks for helping to clarify some questions others had here.

Sochin-San: I can see the validity in your take on drawing weapons and the residual effect called "chambering". I would guess you were at least partially correct, haha!

This is really an interesting discussion. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Hector and Co.. Keep up the heated debates. It keeps things interesting.

yiyo
18th September 2002, 01:38
Bryan.
I believe I asked a sincere and direct question about training. Since when do I have to be an expert in Okinawan grappling tuite to inquire about other forms of training.??
I thought the whole purpose of this place was to get informed on other ways people train. No, I am not an expert in anything that even remotely looks like Okinawan karate, but, you are not doing such a good job of convincing me that its a great way to train for self defense.

PS. Please do not categorize me with any groups or groupies. I am my own man.

Peter
Yiyo

Michael Plank
18th September 2002, 03:02
Hey, this is great, I'm learning a lot about this stuff from you guys that I hadn't thought about before. I'm also pleased that this hasn't devolved into a boorish boo-ing contest (yet). Let's keep the interesting discussion going. Thanks a lot.

Mike Plank

Victor
18th September 2002, 03:18
Hi Bryan,

The research is ongoing, never stopping.

As you do, so I have utmost respect for all martial traditions. But not at the expense of my own either. I focus on trying to understand my own foremost.

My instructors, who trained in Okinawa, didn't do any of the application analysis I use, though I have their full support in my research. Each piece of it has been built up by experimentation, and long analysis as to movement potential.

I've tried to understand that portion of the arts which kata exemplifies, but it is also a very small portion, just the dictionary of movement.

My instructor in the Chinese arts (only a minor hobby to me) shows how the synergy of form, two person drills, weapons and sparring practices combine in the Chinese traditions to create a greater whole. But at the same time there are strong Chinese traditions that don't follow that path too.

About 8 years ago I met on of my original instructor's training mates from Okinawa, who 40 years ago took the 45 or so self defense techniques from Isshinryu's Shimabuku, noticed they all came from kata, and began a similar study as I do, but of course he's several decades further along than I am.

The further I seek the more I find common underlying themes of all arts in each other. How diverse systems such as Baguazhang and Aikido can be overlaid in the technique of Okinawan Chinto Kata (all the variations), and so forth.

I don't really believe the originators had such intentions, but rather there are only so many movement themes and they can be found in many sources if you look.

But in the end, when you step on the floor, you either can make it work or not. Running kata doesn't make it work, but it can be used, with great effort, to make it work better, if you choose to use it.

The most intesting thing is, there is no proof for anybody who isn't intersted in looking closely themself, that will satisfy anybody reading an analysis.

I hope those who are interested will find some value in my observations.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

kusanku
18th September 2002, 03:21
Originally posted by hector gomez
[B]John,

That was very heavy and you even started to make some sense there,the only problem I have with that whole self defense v.s fighting concept thing is this, I personaly cannot tell the difference between the two ,actually what you are describing to me as far as your training for self defense goes,is very similar to the way aikido practicioners practice

Aikido people don't resist and may help you do the technique, Kenpo people smack the hold on hard and you don't do the waza you go down.Big difference.:D



EXAMPLE 1)you put your hand on my wrist,I grab youre wrist turn to the right 360 DEGREES and bingo he is flying around like a rag dog

Kenpo:Hand on wrist, wrist circles up as you go forty five degrees to the outside and palm heel up circling down under the elbow, sending the guy forward and down into the floor.Defense Two:Hand goes to wrist, step up and chamnber as you punch the grabber in the side of the head.Three:Alligator hand, also known as tuite version of nikkyo, straight down, kick opponent under throat.



EXAMPLE 2)The kung fu classic,opponent sneaks up behind me and bear hugs me around my body and arms,I ever so gently kick him in the nuts
with a upward back kick then as soon as he releases from the pain I elbow him in the midsection then to really add insult to injury I backfist him in the face with the same arm motion,cmon we can do better than that.

Kenpo:bear hug goes on and we step back into seisan stance as we grab one arm and hammerfist groin as we lift arm over and down, smashing arm into area behind elbow possibley breaking arm, circling down 'block' striking opponent under ear, kick back of kneee out and down, end of battle.From Naihanchi One kata, actually.


If fights or self defense in your case only really worked that way,I still have not seen any of those so called self defense apps work according to plan,the way that they are practiced in kata or thru prearranged self defense apps

I have, Used that last one couple times, worked fine, had to tone it down to avoid seriously injuring grabber.Have used some the others too, they work well, I rerpeat these are actually simplistic and nasty techniques.Using basic karate in evil ways.:D


Fighting or self defense,what ever the case may be should never be pre planned or mesmerized like, IF YOU DO THIS,I AM GOING TO DO THAT,

C'mon, Hector, that's training, like in Judo and Jiujitsu, when waza are taught, that is how.P{rearranged.then when you have to apply, you adapt.That is one fourth of Kenpo, with kihon and combinations and kata the other three fourths.


It should be very natural without any thoughts more like instinctive,the only way IMHO To achieve this state is thru training against live resisting opponents.

We do and they resist plenty, but when you learn some basci jiujitsu like techniques, they have to be done slowly at first, and with the holds rreally applied or punches really thrown, andthen faster, and against full resistance.Just in the goshinjutsu phase of training, In bogu kumite, its fast, hard and furious, with no prearranged but rules.
In shinken shobu, its slower, but no rules.But even boxers paractice combos and drills , prearranged.



It is like a finger pointing away to the moon ,don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory,all kidding aside
,if you have to practice a self defense application let's say like when someone grabs you in a bear hug and your'e bodies senses does not automatically tell you that you have to drop your lower base and your center of gravitiy,it probably means you have not acquired much of that sense of feeling during actual live resisitence in grappling training,your body should without hesitation know were it needs to be at all times thru understanding live resistence.

When they grab, first you sidestep into low horse stance, I forgot to mention, as you groin them and break the elbow and smack ther ear with hammerfist.Just a prest technique, to give an idea how to respond, showing principles, not set in stone, but it does work as is.



This method should apply to grappling,the same as it applies to striking,

It does. Hector, I think we are actually on the same page here, look at it in context of the overall training I describe.Kenpo is judo applied to karate, basically.



bottom line John and you know this as well as anyone on this board,practice your striking with the same method or formula that you used for training in judo.

Formula for Judo and Kenpo:
1.Basic elements, stance, balance, stepping, posture, hips, etc.

2.Practice the technique slowly and with assistance of partner, breaking it down into sections, then speed it up, then all as one, then add resistance until fill power, full speed against resistance.

3.Put the technique together in combination with others, also learn to defend against the technique and transition into others, and counter it.

4.Put the whole series together in a free exchange of technique using whatever limitations , gear or rules necessary for safety.

5.Judo and Kenpo both contain Kata, from which techniques, combinations and series, as well as defensive and countering principles, may be derived.Like Judo, Kenpo teaches the techniques from the kata as two person drills, unlike Judo however, the kata as a whole are done solo.Bot arts use drills, training gear, strength excercises, and whatever else is needed to make techniques effective.

So, I do agree.

kusanku
18th September 2002, 03:31
Originally posted by Sochin
Perhaps,

since the "roots" of these styles go far back before the modern age,

perhaps even to an age where everyone went armed with sword, knife or both,

perhaps brawls all started with the need to draw your weapon or to cover it from being grabbed by an opponent and so being disarmed,

so that a hand move to the waist became de rigure, and later, when the need fell into disuse because personal weapons were outlawed by the Restoration, it became the place to "keep" the hand until you were ready to use it. Hmmm?

As I generally carry a knife, I find it intriguing and enlightening that when I do my kata, so often my hand would be covering my knife if I were in my street clothes.

Do we know if the waist chamber is Japanese (post 1920's) or Okinawan (pre 1920's)?

Waist Chamber is Okinawan, as far as I know. Also done in Chinese arts, though some do higher.As some Okinawan. I believe though, it is also done in Japanese arts, as in Judo as defense against grab.

kusanku
18th September 2002, 03:41
Victor-
Great stuff.

Antonio-Keep on Keepin' on, I think we all are aiming for the same results.

Really, I have seen and or experiencesd a lot of these different emphases, and they all work if they are trained to work.

The karate of Okinawa does have jiujitsu waza or like them, with it, forty five or forty eight or how ever many, that all come from the kata, as shown in Bubishi for instance.

Its taught like any jiujitsu, prearranged at first.

Then, you integrate it with your striking, to atain a complete fighting system.

I think, the disagreement is only about method of reaching goal, it works both ways, really it does.

I think, the kickboxing/MMA approach gets you to some fighting results very fast, as does Western Boxing compared with karate.

But , karate and judo, give a very good foundation, and when they really are trained to achieve depth of skill, they are second to none, but their aim is self defense more than competition.Well, karate's, anyway. Judo is grweat at competition, but then, it was originally envisioned by Kano as fifty fifty randori and kata.And as a means of self development in mutual cooperation.

hector gomez
18th September 2002, 04:53
I know more than a couple of good traditional karate friends that have had to use their karate on the streets for self defense and if I
were to do an honest survey with each and every one of them as to what techniques were actualy used in their altercations,I am sure we would all be amazed to the actual findings.

Guy's we don't have to get personal here,we have done an excellent job of respecting everyones opinion here so far,the point I am trying to make without pissing off a lot of people is this,IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CREDIT KATA TRAINING OR SELF DEFENSE APPS FOR BEING SUCSESFUL IN A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION,WHY?


Ok,I am not going to run and hide but I am going to try to elaborate on why I made a statement that is definitley not going to get me invited to anyones house for beer & barbecue here at budo.com.

To begin with most all traditional karate schools that I know of divide their training time into 3,4 or 5 different segments in their training,warmup/stretches,kihon(Basics),Kata(forms),kumite(sparring)etc,ect,ect,now going back to that survey,if you were to do a real accurate survey on what techniques are used in most self defense situations, you will notice that most of the skills used in almost all of these situations would be very basic,direct and to the point techniques.

How can one scientificaly justify that the kick,punch,grab or throw used was directly attributed to the actual kata segment of the class and not to the other segment of class,I find this virtually impossible especially when most karate schools divide their training time into various segments and the actual fight on the streets does not ressemble anything close to what a kata physically looks like?

If a karate practicioner lands a kick on the street should the credit go to kumite training segment of class or the kata training segment of class?and why?I personaly see more of a ressemeblence to kumite or randori than I do to kata,is this just me?or am I in the wrong forum?


PS.I really don't want to make enemies here,I just think that these are logical questions that should be answered.

Sochin
18th September 2002, 05:37
If a karate practicioner lands a kick on the street should the credit go to kumite training segment of class or the kata training segment of class?and why?I personaly see more of a ressemeblence to kumite or randori than I do to kata,is this just me?or am I in the wrong forum?


While I tend to attribute my sucess to kata more than the drilling, and very little to sparring which only got me beat up, I guess we'd have to train a large group of folks on kata alone and another on drills alone for 20 years and see how they fare.

I don't teach kata to self defense students even tho I know without it I'd still be unable to move smoothly.

Bustillo, A.
18th September 2002, 12:08
For the 'Chamber the fist by your hip/ribs after every punch' crowd, Focus mitts drills. Don't just have someone stand there motionless with the pads out. Heve someone move around, forward, backward, angle off while moving the pads at different levels and changing the distance while you try 'Combination' punches. After the intial strike, and if you bring your fist to chamber by your hip after each and every punch, you'll notice some of the drawbacks to 'chambering'.

Goju Man
18th September 2002, 12:49
John, that was a very nicely written dissertation.:D But a lot of valid points are being brought up. When doing a wrist lock, arm lock or whatever, of course your arm is not chambered becuase it's in use. However, if while throwing a technique with one hand, you chamber the other, you're open to a counter. If you're performing tuite, and the Dillman variety, you're most likely in grappling range.
Aikido people don't resist and may help you do the technique, Kenpo people smack the hold on hard and you don't do the waza you go down.Big difference
Well, that's where the bogu gear comes into play, self defense and bogu are the same. I don't separate the two, with the protective gear on, we stop only after it is clear that the battle will be on the ground, everything else goes, arm locks or whatever. If you separate the two, then you are truly doing the "s" word that some throw around as an insult. (sport)
Hector has a good point. It has been said that the JKA dosn't know or practise bunkai right? Yet many are very good fighters. How can that be? I would say it's the constant drilling and kumite that's practised over bunkai.
Ok,I am not going to run and hide but I am going to try to elaborate on why I made a statement that is definitley not going to get me invited to anyones house for beer & barbecue here at budo.com.
No problem Gomez, you're invited to my house.:D
BTW fellez, UFC on September 27th. Rico Rodriguez vs Randy Coture.
There won't be a lot of chambering going on there but there will be some good bunkai. I suggest everyone try and watch it, then we can dissect the effectiveness or reality of it.

Victor
18th September 2002, 13:44
Hi Hector,

You're making some very good points and I plan to respond to them from my understanding.

In part there is a great divergence between what a tradtional karate program consists of.

Joe Swift breaks karate development into several periods. Classical pre 1900, Traditional 1900 to 1950, Modern 1950 to present, and Contemporary the past 10 or so years.

What you're describing as traditional karate schools really fits karate development in the Traditional and Modern periods.

But most if the kata developed in the Classical Period, and a different approach seems to have taken place, prior to Itosu's developement of the karate class structure (for the schools).

For example in my adult class, there is no set structure, ever. Each class is an exercise in un-predictablity. We don't do warmups or stretching, instead we do karate. We don't do kihon (except on occassion in advanced combination sets).

We use kata and 2 person exercises of various sorts.

I agree with you in actual self defense the resposnes will be basic. All of which are likely contained within kata.

I see kata in the earlier Chinese development, as a tool for gaining control of the body, and as you advance, you develop greater and greater control.

Then two person drills to transfer that control into practice.

Part of which is exploring the tool box, such as seeing how the energy developed for chambering is used against attackers in many different ways.

But my idea of a kata technique (borrowing from some Baguazhang folks) involves fractal analysis of kata movement, and it can be a small piece of a move or a large sequence of moves.

A lot of the tools can't be practiced in free with safety. We look at kicking smash the opposite hip joint, or at kicking to slam into the lower leg from ankle to knee.

Kata is the beginning of our approach and the re-occuring nightmare. It is a 'tool' to develop more responsive control and technique. In itself it is never enough, but combined with two person exercises begins to bridge the gap.

A major tool remains full commitment to unpredictability so nobody can ever anticipate your response. The advancing student must periodically (at random inervals) re-set their response, too.

Whether I'm a traditional karate or school or not has never been my goal. I use the art I have as fully as I can.

And as for goals, well I've been blessed or cursed to be trained by too many who are far above my own level, in many different arts. I hope I help my students ability to exceed those standards.

Such as Sutrisno Sensei, from Hazleton, Pa, (Shotokan, Kobudo, Tjimande, Aikido). His school never incorporates free sparring, but years ago when he competed, he was most often unstoppable. Yet his abilities come from training practices that bridge the gap to a very high level.

Once he was trying to make a point to his students, and using a basic training tool, when I stepped in to punch him, he responded by jumping up on my shoulders before my punch finished. Then he lept off and flipped a side kick to my face as he landed with a grin. A response built from incredible natural abilities and then training practices to enhance those skills.

I don't see any one set answer, but so many different, often opposing ones that can work if they're properly addressed.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

kusanku
19th September 2002, 04:29
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John, that was a very nicely written dissertation.:D But a lot of valid points are being brought up. When doing a wrist lock, arm lock or whatever, of course your arm is not chambered becuase it's in use.

Yes, and if you try one on a judoka, they will 'chamber' to counter it.



However, if while throwing a technique with one hand, you chamber the other, you're open to a counter.

Yes, unless you have the opponent's wrist or hand in your when you chamber, then you lock them into place as you smack them.As Funakoshi shows in his book.


If you're performing tuite, and the Dillman variety, you're most likely in grappling range.

If you're perfroming the Dillman variety, you better have a standing unresisting relaxed opponent or you are in trouble.:D

Mine is more the Judo, Oyata, or Shaolin Chin Na varieties, or some jiujitsu, whatever I have found that worlks well for me over the years. In short, not that as some think I am confused by variety, but which one works from each system, and which ones don't, and use only what works, where Have I heard that before, Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless?



No problem Gomez, you're invited to my house.:D
BTW fellez, UFC on September 27th. Rico Rodriguez vs Randy Coture.
There won't be a lot of chambering going on there but there will be some good bunkai. I suggest everyone try and watch it, then we can dissect the effectiveness or reality of it.

Sounds like a winner.

kusanku
19th September 2002, 04:45
Originally posted by hector gomez
[B]I know more than a couple of good traditional karate friends that have had to use their karate on the streets for self defense and if I
were to do an honest survey with each and every one of them as to what techniques were actualy used in their altercations,I am sure we would all be amazed to the actual findings.

Well, why don't you survey them and let's see what those findings are. Am I included in the survey?


Guy's we don't have to get personal here,we have done an excellent job of respecting everyones opinion here so far,

Yes, we are doing well so far, let's continue.


the point I am trying to make without pissing off a lot of people is this,IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CREDIT KATA TRAINING OR SELF DEFENSE APPS FOR BEING SUCSESFUL IN A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION,WHY?


Well, I'm like Ted in that I credit kata with me being able to move, in karate, smoothly, but then, I did do Judo and Jiujitsu before that so I am not a good test subject for this one.I have in all fairness to admit.




To begin with most all traditional karate schools that I know of divide their training time into 3,4 or 5 different segments in their training,warmup/stretches,kihon(Basics),Kata(forms),kumite(sparring)etc,ect

Kata, and self defense, too.


,ect,now going back to that survey,if you were to do a real accurate survey on what techniques are used in most self defense situations, you will notice that most of the skills used in almost all of these situations would be very basic,direct and to the point techniques.

Such as what should be taught in kata and self defense, kata apps.
Brutal and simple and to the points.:D


How can one scientificaly justify that the kick,punch,grab or throw used was directly attributed to the actual kata segment of the class and not to the other segment of class,I find this virtually impossible

How can you say it was not from that at least as much as the other parts, though? Kata teaches backfist, side kick, reverse punch, front kick, same as in other segments.It is repetition and perfection and sped and power and timing and coordination. This scientigfically is shown to improve skills.


especially when most karate schools divide their training time into various segments and the actual fight on the streets does not ressemble anything close to what a kata physically looks like?

Nor, Gracies being correct, does it resemble much free sparring or basic training.Yet something enables the good karateka to survive and prevail sometimes, it must be in the training, part at least is kata and self defense apps, why would they not have any effect and the other stuff have?Incidentally, Okinawan Kenpo people frequently went to the floor sparring.


If a karate practicioner lands a kick on the street should the credit go to kumite training segment of class or the kata training segment of class?

Same move being trained in both, I should say it would go to both segements.Wouldn't you?


and why?

Well, we were taught in Kenpo, as in Judo, form, power, speed,concentration produces form when you once learn it, form creates power, and power repeated creates speed.Kata, kihon, goshunjutsu alike, and kumite, all are forms of practice involving form, power and speed, albeit in different ways for each.



I personaly see more of a ressemeblence to kumite or randori than I do to kata,is this just me?or am I in the wrong forum?

Kumite means seizing hand, originally, and ran dori means free throwing or free seizing or 'taking.'It is these skills that are taught in kata in both arts and applied in self defense apps, randori and kumite, but the rules made free standing striking predominate in klarate, and throwing and holding dominate in judo, really originally, they were both the same art, chuan fa or Kempo. Even in Japan, Kempo Jiujitsu existed.Yes,m a striking fight looks like kickboxing or modern kumite, but self defense resembles applications of the waza taught in kata, at least by those teachers, who know what they are doing.And they may be less than thought originally.But they do exist. I think the discussion as far as I am concerned is mostly semantics at this point, as if everyone could see what everyone else was doing, they might say, Oh, yes, that irs real stuff.:D


[/quote]PS.I really don't want to make enemies here,I just think that these are logical questions that should be answered.[/quote]

Cool with me, Hector.:-)I did my best.

hector gomez
19th September 2002, 07:17
I just realized life is too short to carry on these never ending long debates,that seem to last a life time with no end in sight.

John,your best is good enough for me,victor your research paper has brought up some interesting finding and yes even Ed added his experience into the mix.

I respect your opinions regardles of wether I agree with you or not,the thing is to give an honest opinion and elaborate on what you really feel to be the truth,this to me is 10 times more important than punctuation or spelling anyday.


So you want to put your hand on your waist go right ahead,besides a real good karate friend of mines just convinced me to look thru all my boxing magazines and analyze the different pictures of boxers and I will notice how most fighters naturaly end up with their hands by their waist ,he tells me it's a natural tendency in the human mind to drop guard,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,He had me going there for a while but I slapped myself silly and realized,"I AM A S.F.A HOMEY FOR LIFE".


Hector Gomez

Victor
19th September 2002, 10:38
Hi Hector,

I don't think these are never-ending debates.

They're expressions of our inner self.

You make your choices and build your art on your experiences.
I make my choices and build my art on my experiences.

That makes us passionate, the definition of a real martial artist.

If we'd share in person we'd get the chance to make our points without words, and I'm sure they'd be good points.

But with these words, our belief and practice always come across strong with different opinions.

Look at the small island of Okinawa. How many different variations of systems arose from that very small pool of practitioners.

Now the wider world, and greater experiences create vastly wider divergent opinions.

The one thing I know is we take our beliefs and put them into practice on the floor, and they either work or they don't and we learn and grow and move on.

In that we're brothers.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

CEB
19th September 2002, 16:30
Karate is Kata. Kata is Karate. The kata is the ryu. If kata doesn't look like the way you fight then you are wasting your time with it and a lot of people are wasting their time. But I suppose if you can run it real pretty they will give you a trophy for it. I'm pretty opinionated eh? :)

I try not to teach that much. Our sensei stopped teaching a few years ago. The most senior student took over the dojo. We have a couple of yudansha who are senior to me and a several who are my juniors. I never enjoyed getting in front of a class and teaching. I like to work with people on a one to one basis or just stand in line and work out with the rest of the class. One day a shodan was leading kihons. we were doing low blocks from Shiko Dachi ( sumo stance, horse stance, wide and low looking thing stance) He made the statement that shiko dachi was a training stance to strengthen the legs and not a fighting stance. Later I said excuse me sir but all our stances are fighting stances. I told him to punch me with his front hand then I threw him with a scopping throw (sucui nage) over the front leg of my shiko dachi. I said see fighting stance.

I have never seen Mr. Genjumin work but I am guessing his methods are not much different than mine. We credit the kata for our waza. But on a percentage basis I probably spend little class time working on performing solo kata. You can do that anywhere and anytime. In class you need to take advantage of the fact that you have training partners to work with and work your technique. We spend a lot of time on yaksoku kumite, bunkai kumite,renzoku kumite,kakie kumite ,jiyu kumite. We take time to teach kata to juniors and to review where we stand with our forms. The majority of the time is spent on kumite but those people who are of a classical mindset will condsider this an extension of kata. When we are in close contact our fighting really resembles our kata.

I was trying to think of just when we chamber and punch appearing to drop our guard in our kata. In our style we don't really do that very much. In Shorin Ryu I see it all the time even in the advanced forms like Gojushiho. If Shorin comes from pechin class karate then Ted's theory concerning knives makes sense. Like the block punch, punch sequence or the block kick punch punch sequence from Shorin Ryu. punch, punch could be punch, stab. I don't know if there is any truth to this but it is fun to play guessing games.

I only am considering the kaishu forms from Goju. Geka Sai chambers and punches but Geka Sai was a Shorin kata invented by Nagamine (Fukyu Gata I believe it is called). In Saifa there is a punch with the opposite hand chambering (at the end before you turn and do mawashi uke). This pulling technique is either reaction to wrist grab or a grab and pull. The other are the 3 consecutives punches in Sesan done from Shiko dachi which dropping the guard doesn't a whole lot of sense to me. We stress keeping the hands in a proper defensive guard. Our basic fighting posture is Sanchin no Kamae. In kihons we work straight to the front, but when we fight the line of strength in the stance is the line which runs from foot to foot which puts the leading shoulder forward which is the same postion we are in for kakie kumite. This is also very very similar to Tyson no Kamae. The boxer not the chicken.( elbows in front of body hands in a fists up by the head ) I will take a body shot but I can not let the computer get knocked offline, if that happens its all over, perhaps literally.


I believe we are all more a like in our methods than we are different. The differences just make it more interesting.

Harry Cook
19th September 2002, 21:36
As Hector mentioned boxing it might be of interest to look at R. G. Allanson-Winn's "Boxing" published in London in 1891. Although the illustrations show the boxers wearing gloves, the ideas and values expressed in this book basically represent bare fist boxing, and self defense is an important consideration throughout the text. The illustrations feature what is essentially a chamber of the non hitting fist. In the Prize Ring grappling was considered a normal part of boxing, and it was perfectly acceptable to place an opponent's head "In chancery" ie grab him around the neck, pull his head down and thump him in the head, ribs, solar plexus ("the mark") etc. As a counter to this the cross-buttock is advocated, or if that cannot be used then a back heel may be resorted to. The illustration of this technique found on page 51 could be used as a nice bunkai for Tekki/Naihanchi 1.
For those interested in this topic I would recommend looking at Michael Delahaye's "La Boxe Francaise" (Ergo Press, France 1989) which shows French boxers (Savate) with very definite chambers.

Yours,
Harry Cook

Tatsu
19th September 2002, 22:25
Originally posted by yiyo
Bryan.
I believe I asked a sincere and direct question about training. Since when do I have to be an expert in Okinawan grappling tuite to inquire about other forms of training.??
I thought the whole purpose of this place was to get informed on other ways people train. No, I am not an expert in anything that even remotely looks like Okinawan karate, but, you are not doing such a good job of convincing me that its a great way to train for self defense.

PS. Please do not categorize me with any groups or groupies. I am my own man.

Peter
Yiyo

Sorry if I perceived your question as facetious. I guess I was having a bad day and misread. Tuite is basically, as others here have explained, "Okinawan JuJutsu". It is Okinawan Grappling, a lot of it is for standing, close-in fighting. The indigenous Ryukyuan MAs (Ti) were comprised of different grappling, weapons and striking styles. Training with supplementary tools such as chishi, sand and rock buckets, the makiwara and the tetsu (iron) bo, etc. was commonplace. Due to the fact that modern strength training had not been introduced to the Ryukyus, other hojo undo, or supplementary drills, were practiced.

Repetition of kata (sometimes 100s of times) and the use of proper posture, stepping, form and exaggerated limb movements (such as chambering) were used to aid in a practitioners overall physical and mental development. Chambering teaches one to use the proper extension on wrist and arm controls or locks, as well as increases the usual range of motion in the arm, creating increased
strength and flexibility in the connective tissue and muscles. This aspect of training (chambering), is a movement that trains your arms in a way that modern weight-bearing and limbering exercises can't. In addition to grasping and grappling, the increased range of motion aids in punching veolcity and consequently, overall punching power. It's also easier to be "relaxed" in your technique, if one is more limber from head-to-toe. It's a function of physics and physiology, and the Antagoistic vs. Protagonistic effects of muscles.

If you have never chambered your hands before, keeping your elbows in and your hand in line with your ear can prove to be very difficult. This action doesn't hamper your punching ability one bit, and I have yet to see a good karate-ka chambering in actual combat (sparring or otherwise). The increased flexibilty in your arms also serves to protect you in some way from armlocks and even armbars on the ground. Often people with ligamentous laxity, or "double-jointed" types as they are erroneously referred to, have no problem protecting against armlocks and such. Proof of this are the Gracies who all seem to be naturally very flexible, so therefore enjoy some measure of lax ligaments, and a measure of immunity to arm and leg bars.

There is more. I'm just scratching the surface. I think that some aspects of traditional karate training are useless or outdated. For the most part modern science and athletics has supplanted many of the Hojo Undo techs. For those who can't afford weights or a gym membership the warm-ups and supplementary training seen in traditional Okinawan dojos can replace this. When it comes to chambering in kata, I see the utility of it. Others who see differently may not. Hope this helps and sorry I was such an A-Hole!!!

Bustillo, A.
20th September 2002, 11:20
Mr. Cook,

I am not 100% sure I understand what you are trying to say. You mentioned a book written over a century ago. Due to the fact that some form grappling was allowed in boxing type bouts of the time you noticed a chambered fist?

Nwadays, a close equivalent would be the mixed-martial arts matches. And, they don't practice chambering after each blow.

So, are you saying you believe that after the intial strike and during a fight it is better to chamber the fist by the hip/ribs after each punch before striking out again?


Please excuse ne if I misunderstood.

hector gomez
20th September 2002, 13:09
I had made a previous statement in order to prove a fact on how emotional these chambering debates can get that someone would actualy mention the posibility of chambering by their waistside during a boxing match.


I believe that if any boxer were to hold their hands by their side during a boxing match,it would have to be due to the fact of fatigue instead of by the boxers intent or design.

The human mind & body has to be programmed initialy on how to properly execute almost all moves for proper self defense even if it feels unatural at first,all actions eventualy should become second nature.

Hector Gomez

hector gomez
20th September 2002, 17:59
To all my Budo.com Friends

This Thread demonstrates for us how we can all have friendly discussions without resorting to the usual my style is better than yours routine,even when we come from different,backgrounds,styles and experiences in life.

If anyone happens to be in the Miami area on Fri oct 4,please stop by
the Miami park plaza,we are showcasing many different martial art sport disciplines together for one night,proving once again that we can all work together to make things happen.


Hector Gomez

PS.Chambering will be allowed in any match from any position:D

Harry Cook
20th September 2002, 19:28
Dear Antonio, I think that the "chamber" is in fact an active position of the fist, used while grabbing the opponent's hair, arm, flesh etc. while hitting him with the other hand. I definitely do not believe that you should chamber your fist before every strike in a fight, you should punch, elbow etc from wherever your hand happens to be, according to the shifting distances, opponents reactions, movements etc.
My observation re. the "chamber" in old boxing is that when grappling or holding if you like is allowed then something like a chamber will be used. Modern gloved boxing does not allow a competitor to hold his opponent in a headlock and and hit him at will, so the idea of holding/grabbing an opponent is irrelevant in modern boxing. However this was not the case in the Prize Ring, hence my reference to Allanson-Winn's book and the French boxing material which both reflect methods used in a less restrictive environment.
When Tom Sayers (GB) fought John Heenan (USA) on 17 April 1860 in England for what was in effect the first world boxing championships the Times newspaper reported "Heenan had got Sayers's head under his left arm and, supporting himself by a stake with his right, held his opponent bent down as if he meant to strangle him. Sayers...at last got his left arm free and gave Heenan two dreadful blows on the face, covering them both with blood, but Heenan, without relaxing his hold, turned himself so as to get his antagonists's neck over the rope...."
The chamber seen in modern karate only makes sense if the chambering hand is holding/controlling/gripping some part of the opponent's anatomy, such as the throat, groin, hair etc. Of course this is also true for those kamae where both hands are held against the waist/hips as you see in Heian2, 4, Tekki etc. If this is not understood then the chamber is pointless and is in fact a bad idea, performed simply for aesthetic rather than practical purposes.
Grabbing and hitting is a very useful tactic, which is why bouncers/doormen tend to wear their hair short, and use clip on ties which limit the opportunities for disgruntled customers to use such a tactic on them.
Yours,
Harry Cook
ps. I hope your book is selling well.

Bustillo, A.
21st September 2002, 08:56
Hector,

Reference the Oct. 4th fights, we'll be there.


Mr. Cook,

I understand what you mean. Thanks for explaining.
The book, as long as Harvey Firestone doesn't play me in the movies, it will be fine.

kusanku
22nd September 2002, 11:03
Mendoza, one of the early British heavyweights, in his book on scientific boxing(bareknuckle. with grappling included,) shows the chamber as we call it, as a block against a close in hook to the kidney, a legal blow at the time.

I suspect it could also be so used in karate as the hook punch to the kidney is seen in kata both Shorin and Goju.

Ed Boyd suspects we may have similar ideas and practices. So do I.:DI suspect also, that Victor, Mr. Cook and myself, may as well as Ted Truscott and Bryan, like some of the same things.:D

How can I make some of these statements? Simple. We all do either the same or similar kata, or kata with the same or similar techniques, stances, etc., in them, and through long practice, many good instructors, and devious minds:D have come up with some real corkers of applications of these selfsame maneuvers.

Harry Cook, is right of course, as many of us have repeatedly stated here, one should not use either the one or two handed chambers in a free standing punchout.I'd even go so far as to add, one should probably never throw a free standing kick above the waist against a possibly equally skilled opponent or any boxer ever,unless you got a hold of some part of the opponent's limb or other anatomical gripping place.To be really safe not sorry.

Obviously moves in kata where two hands go to the wais are armbars or locks, and so are one handed chambers and the famous cup and saucer or te uke position seen in so many kata of all styles.One hand over the other at the side of the body.That's surely not a guard position, what would it guard?But when you grab someone in a wristlock or armbar and take them in control on one side or your body, that is where the hands wind up.

No boxer ever should drop their hands to the waist to punch, but many do, when they as someone said, get arm weary.I don't think that is what it was for in kata, as a karate battle wasn't supposed to last all that long.

I think, the saying karatre ni sente nashi, or there is no (advantage to) a first strike in karate, , was intended not so much as a philosophical admonition against hitting the other guy first, because sen no sen or whatever, you do that before he can hit you. I think, it may have been meant as this: In actual, old style, kata centered karate, all the real waza or self defense techniques, as taught in kata and bunkai,were set up off the opponent's intent to harm you, such that as he movedsd, you moved to take advantage of his movement such that in a very short order, he wound up struck, maybe several times, locked and maybe struck, thrown and struck, or run over by a truck.:D

The fact that this might not work forst time out, is shown by the large number of followup( oyo) techniques in the kata for when your first corker, failed.But succeeded enough to allow you to survive the opponent's first attempt.

Let's face it: One good wrasslin' holt can take you out, and there are many such in the kata.Some point out that these are more obvious in Goju kata than shorin based kata, and this seems so, but I assure you its there in the shorin as well.

The seeming larger number of chambers in shorin kata is to do, legendarily, with Kusanku, who was said to have introduced the move to the Okinawans in his demonstration of Kogusoku grapling and ground fighting takedowns, sen also in Bubishi, before that the Okinawans are said to have held their hands both up by their chests as in boxing.

Whether this be so or not, I know not. But interesting statement .Kusanku being a Chinese diplomat, would also have carried a dagger or knife in his kimono.De rigeur for the diplomatic Corps in those days.

Some of the shorin kata do closely resemble forms designed for various weapons.It was taught me that the forms, hands carefully positioned, could be done with knoives or other weapons, such as sai, tekko or knuckle dusters, etc.

Just a few thoughts.

hector gomez
22nd September 2002, 14:18
If all those moves that you described in the kata are really grappling moves and I agree that they are,why don't the best grapplers in the world practice locks,armbars and holds that way?


Hector Gomez

hector gomez
22nd September 2002, 15:36
If those grappling locks,armbars and holds are really intended to be used along with strikes for self defense purposes and not grappling tournaments,then why don't they practice it that way for grappling tournaments that also allow strikes like N.H.B,pride,ufc etc?

Hector Gomez


PS.Oh yeah I forgot on the streets you would attack the vital areas along with the element of surprise which would change the whole practice method and movements,yeah right.
:(

Harry Cook
22nd September 2002, 19:27
Hector raised an interesting point in his last two posts. If we assume that the aim of kata is to record and transmit techniques, principles, strategies etc, something like a physical "book" or "video tape" then simply practicing kata in thin air without a partner, either compliant or resistant is essentially a training method most suitable for a novice. Once the mechanical aspects have been learned it is necessary to practice with a partner. Actually something like this process was described in Wrestling Intercollegiate and Olympic (Prentice-Hall Inc., New York 1950) Henry A. Stone said “The acquisition of athletic skill is a live problem with all coaches, and many volumes have been written on the subject. Certain general principles are recognized, and it is desirable to use them as guides in any coaching procedure.
The first step toward developing ability to use a wrestling maneuver in a skillful manner is to acquire a complete understanding of its mechanical aspects, the conditions under which it should be employed, and what results can be expected from its use. Once this has been gained, it is necessary to practice the hold with some fellow wrestler who does not attempt to block it or to offer undue resistance. The maneuver should be repeated over and over until it can be done smoothly and accurately. In this way correct timing and co-ordination can be developed. Once good form is achieved, attention should be directed toward speedy execution under the same conditions, until that also becomes satisfactory. It is very important at this stage that no sacrifice in accurate execution be made in order to increase speed. The maneuver should then be tried under something approaching competitive conditions. The first trials should be made when wrestling with someone who is not particularly skillful. In this way the maneuver will probably succeed, and actual practice will be obtained. This method also tends to give the novice confidence in his ability to use the maneuver. If it is first tried out against a very skillful performer, it may fail. When efforts to execute any maneuver are continually blocked, no real practice occurs. Skill remains undeveloped, and confidence is lost.
After the maneuver has been tried until it works well against a less skilled performer, the amount of opposition should be increased by steps until it is possible to repeat it on someone of equal skill. By means of this scheme of progessive practice, any hold, the use of which is well-adapted to the individual, can be developed to a point where it can be applied successfully under competitive conditions. The final stage in the skillful use of any hold or maneuver is the development of ability to induce the adversary to assist in its application. This is done by devising methods wbereby he is led to believe that some otber maneuver is about to be tried, and in his efforts to avoid this imagined danger assists in the application of the actual hold. Ability to deceive requires imagination. A wrestler must be able to create appropriate situations and then to predict correctly just what his adversary will be thinking and doing. “ pp28-29
I think it is important to distinguish between the acquisition of technique and the skilled application of that technique. Sometimes a great deal of energy is wasted on one while the real need is to develop the other.
Yours,
Harry Cook

hector gomez
22nd September 2002, 22:03
Mr Cook,

I agree with your analogy of one having to take baby steps before one learns to walk,techniques must first be learned in a careful and slow manner in order to understand the basics steps that allows one to be able to achieve proper skills.The difference in wrestling as opposed to other methods of training is,in not being bounded by the exact same set pattern that can never be changed.

In Dan Gables book(coaching wrestling successfully human kinectics1999)he states on page 110 under Solo drills,"When directly relating these solo drills,a wrestler must use his IMAGINATION somewhat to make the drills even more realistic,"this same principle applies to boxers.

This is were I always get stuck in these friendly chitchats,solo drills and shadowboxing become the same as kata,I do not believe that to be true.The difference lies in progressive solo drills having the unrestricted freedom of being able to change daily,monthly or yearly depending on the adaptations that need to be made with progress.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
23rd September 2002, 00:52
This is were I always get stuck in these friendly chitchats,solo drills and shadowboxing become the same as kata,I do not believe that to be true.The difference lies in progressive solo drills having the unrestricted freedom of being able to change daily,monthly or yearly depending on the adaptations that need to be made with progress.
Hector, in shadow boxing, there is no pre set movements. The boxer moves freely without any set pattern. In kata, you are not moving freely. A fighter shadow boxing will have different combinations at any given time whereas a kata will look the same every time. (not comparing a sloppy kata one day vs a nicer performance)
The problem with these debates is the definitions change somewhat to suit the argument. Bogu was argued furiosly before on this forum as being real combat, and it was reffered to as sport the other day.;)
BTW, I did see Oscar De Lahoya chambering his hands in his last fight.

Harry Cook
23rd September 2002, 11:47
Actually Hector I agree with you about the need to change, adapt etc in order to make progress and I guess in order to integrate new information, ideas etc. However you will find these ideas expounded by some traditional karate teachers in relation to kata. For example Hironori Ohtsuka, the founder of Wado Ryu said a trainee must not be 'stuck' in kata, he must "withdraw from kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms by training."
Ohtsuka explained that there is a difference between "igata" and "kata". The first character represents a fixed form which is "dead - it has no life. Kata is alive. The dead igata has no purpose...when using the kata of martial arts, one must use it in accordance to the meaning and objective it has, or else it becomes useless."
I tend to think that what Ohtsuka called igata is what is often taken for kata. The fixed, mechanical, mindless repetition of basic movements performed with little or no concern for practicality or function, the aim of which is to turn out yet another clone of the teacher. Essentially a waste of time.
Ohtsuka also pointed out that "kata must be correct, unlimited, and most of all, alive. Martial arts progresses from kata to kumite, kumite to combat and so on."
When karate was first taught in the West the first instructors tended to teach kata in far too rigid a way, and this habit became entrenched and solidified because of the way kata were judged in tournaments. Only the outer gymnastic aspect was considered to be of interest and so what should have been a fairly flexible and progressive method of training fossilised into a museum piece and the didactic function of kata became replaced by various sparring methods. I still see kata as useful as a catalgue of techniques, but without fairly free ways of interpreting or investigating the possibilities of the kata (bunkai, ohyo bunkai etc) then their practical value is severely diminished.
Yours,
Harry Cook

kusanku
23rd September 2002, 11:50
Originally posted by hector gomez
If all those moves that you described in the kata are really grappling moves and I agree that they are,why don't the best grapplers in the world practice locks,armbars and holds that way?


Hector Gomez

I dunno, Hector. Some do it one way, some do it another, but Jiujitsu was taught all by kata, and Judo still has a few, too.And in the kata, those moves are done that way, quite a bit. In fact, koryu martial arts, are usually taught through kata and two person drill exclusively, with a few notable exceptions.

And karate was a martial art, though Okinawan , descended from Chinese. Most people do kata in those arts, but some like to wrestle like shuai chaio, and they may or may not use kata.

In Judo, we used to do tandoku renshu, solo training, doing one siided techniques into the air, my school classmates in High school used to think I was weird, doing footsweeps up and down the hallway.

Look a little like the foot moves in Naihanchi kata, those did. But when you do it on a person, it doesn't look so weird.

But I dunno why.You went to the well once too often.:D

kusanku
23rd September 2002, 12:12
Looking at Harry Cook's posts. Good stuff, there, too.In the tradition I belong too, kata does change, it is not stuck in a rigid form, that is how beginners are taught, later, the timing changes, the form and applications change, and henka rule.

If kata are only boxing, they would make no sense, that stuff would get you kilt.If one does free standing striking and kicking, three to five move combinations, moving in, are all that are needed, and we did these for sparring.

Manny mentions Bogu being called real combat and also sport.Its realer than not using armor, but it is the sporting aspect of Okinawna Kenpo styles that also teach locking and striking vital nerves in real combat.

The Bogu prevent you from receiving the full effect or affect of the strikes, and locking is not allowed in it.That is the difference.

Too, since the helmet does not protect the back or the head nor the armor the back really well, nor the legs at the joints, rules have to be there. What has rules is not combat, by definition, but bogu does prepare one for the sensations one may experience in combat, to some extent.

The kata do integrate grappling with striking, and are traditional, I think that may be the objection for many, because we need to believe,. like Mulder on the x-files, that new methods are superior to old ones, otheriwse, maybe , we missed something.And we can't have missed something, can we have? Noooo.:D

Hey, well, I did. I thought in the Seventies, we here in the US, got it going on, we know all karate, we got judo, we got it all, the Oriental instructors can't teach us anything anymore, and we can go anywhere and whip anyone, us and the Europeans, in contest, and contest is the test for real fighting, especially contact karate as we called it then, and we all did it, too. Put on the protectors and later the gloves and went at it good, you name it , we did it.

And I had Judo , too, so when we got in close, whoo Hah!

Fun, fun, fun till Daddy took the T-Bird away.I saw the Dillman stuff, okay, whatever, but when my teacher showed me the Okinawan Ryukyu Kempo and told me that the chinese too, knew this, some the Aiki people too, and the Taiji people, some of them, and the old Jiujitsu people, I thought, 'What dawse Heck is going on around here?'

Then it hit me. I mean, literally, I got put not out, but onna ground , in agony, with a strike to my arm. My Iron Arm.I had thought.

Then as he started to open up a can of Okinawan whoopit,. on me, I started laughing, because the legendary stuff I had heard of for twenty some years, hidden inna katas, was being shown on me.I said, at the age of forty, when I have no use for it whatever, now, at last, I find out, its true.But he said, hey, who do you think criminals attack? Old folks, and that is why this stuff is important.'

So, this made sense, and as I had been doing the kata for twenty years, when he showed me the keys, I found I was already good at the moves, just had to take a little time, took a year, to unravel it a bit.Also went and rechecked those other arts to confirm, and sure enough, it was there allright.Sometimes right there, other times, had to trade a bit, with some of the seniors, before they would show their stuff. It exists however. About that time, inthee Nineties, some texts began to come out, from some Chinese instructors, that also containded this stuff.From their arts.

Plus, the Taiji people.Basically, its anatomy and body mechanics and they meet in the applications of the forms.

But I see, people may not believe its real with all the Krap out there about people saying they are masters and all, who can';t even stand upright sometimes.Or who if they can, got stuff you have to stand there for it to work. Its a laugh, riot.

But the real stuff, exists, and it ain't funny at all.Sometimes I wish I never heard of the stuff, but i really am glad I did, so if anyone else does know it they can';t sneak up on me with it.Like they usedta could.

Bustillo, A.
23rd September 2002, 12:14
Excellent. Several have addressed important issues.

Speaking of...kata....

Chambering is included throughout the different forms with explanations and reasons offered. Mr. cook brought up a good point when he mentions the mindless practice, dead sets, and lack of aliveness.

So, what about the folks who claim to know 50, 60 and even up to 100 forms. Even for the die-hard kata afficionados, I see no need to try and learn so many forms and I believe it is a waste of precious time to do so. Especially when there are other important aspects of training that demand attention.

Therefore, aliveness or mindless repitition.--chambering during kata and kata practice--

Goju Man
23rd September 2002, 12:47
Harry, excellent post. One of the new JKD guys called Matt Thornton teaches "aliveness". When practising any type of combat, wether kata or what have you, it must be free. That's one reason why Judo works well. When you are training, you are training with a live opponent. You're not purely speculating on anything. Doing static kata only engraves the static moves in your head. Kata, I beleive must be closer to realistic fighting than it is.Some styles have addressed this issue, ironically they are the same styles thought as un traditional or renegades in some circles, Enshin, Ashihara, etc.

Well, on another front, we have some good kickboxing and grappling events here in Oct. Another Judo vs Jiujitsu match. Lords of the Ring.
Even some Karate matches are scheduled. Hector, can you elaborate?
Maybe it me good to post it on the Judo forum, too.

hector gomez
24th September 2002, 04:42
Manny,

The fights have me running around like a crazy man,we have Kickboxing matches scheduled along with submission grappling and contact point karate,the major milestone acomplishment has been getting together both competitors in that judo v.s jiujitsu match to agree on a set of rules.

I know this has nothing to do with chambering,maybe we can start a new thread on the judo forum"Grappling Match trivia"What should the rules be when a judo player meets a jiujitsu player outside of their own sport arena.?

Hector Gomez

CEB
24th September 2002, 18:24
Originally posted by Tatsu


... Haven't you ever heard of tendon strengthening exercises. Yes, it is possible to strengthen tendons. Muscle strength is short term. When you are 60+ your muscle strength will decrease significantly.
...



So, Tendon strength disapates more slowly than muscle strength. I don't know about that but tendons seems to heel slower than muscles. I hurt the tendon in the top of left foot that connects to the little toe about a month ago and its still aint right.

CEB
24th September 2002, 18:47
Originally posted by Tatsu


....

I think that some aspects of traditional karate training are useless or outdated. For the most part modern science and athletics has supplanted many of the Hojo Undo techs. For those who can't afford weights or a gym membership the warm-ups and supplementary training seen in traditional Okinawan dojos can replace this.
....

What are some examples of outdated hojo undo? Traditional hojo undo seems great for karate specfic needs. Our chi ishi exercises really work those tendons that you are really big on. Nigiri game great for those gripping needs. I can see the tan being out of date I guess. Kongoken is really cool. I guess my biggest complaint about hojo undo tools is that someone needs to put some rubber padding on the handles of ishi sashi. Those thing make the top of my feet hurt. I guess I can't get all those little bones 'conditioned' to to lifting the stone padlocks.

Goju Man
29th September 2002, 00:05
I guess there's no answer coming Ed.:rolleyes:
I do agree that hojo undo is very good for karate specific applications. There are some things that can't be duplicated in the weight room. You're on top of your game Ed.;)

boxerboy
6th October 2002, 04:42
Where one chambers the hands seems to be an ongoing forum for disscussion in this thread. I might as well add my two cents worth. First off let me say that I am presently boxing, and have done so for several years at university, before joining a more serious club in Kitchener (Lennox Lewis' very first club run by Arnie Boehm and Ian Russell). However, let me state that my career began in martial arts, back in 1990. I earned my shodan in Goju Ryu in 1997 under Sensei Gregg Skoryk of Waterloo. My reasons for a switch to full contact were numerous, and I found that I was especially motivated by both the fitness and thrashing ability of my first boxing coaches at WLU. (if anyone is open for debate on the merits of full contact training see my posts under the name 'boxerboy') In any event, the techniques for generating power in punching are similar if not identical in all the martial arts I have come across in twelve years of training; rotation and twisting of the hips and torso, twisting of the arm and hand, and weight shifts forward as in lunge punching or jabbing. The reverse punch is identical to the right cross in boxing. The big difference between boxing and hand techniques of traditional martial arts is what I would call purposeful exaggeration. Seriously, I beleive that Kata and basics are training exercises, and are not directly transferable to a fight situation. I beleive that any skillful practioner would shorten many, if not all, of the lengthy stances practiced in basics, in order to effectively hide his or her intentions and movement into and out of the strike zone. Yes, chamber positions create alot of power, but at what cost?? Can you say telegraph!! One does not need to chamber to create power, there are other ways. I use a heavy bag and a stationary bike(I use a bike due to bad knees instead of running and skipping). How about 2000 punches a workout, three times a week? My power has probably tripled since I gave up on traditional basic punches thrown from the chamber position. One of the hardest things for me to correct was a tendency to pull the non punching hand back to chamber as the other was fired. My coaches were on me for this fault for several years. Think about it, what a dead give away to one's opponent. Hide, hide, hide the punch at all costs! In addition, ask yourselves this 'which would I prefer: a head shot or a body shot?'At least with your hands up you have a decent chance at blocking the former. As for the latter that is what sit ups are for.
Andrew Shackleton
Waterloo, Ont.

sanseiryu
6th October 2002, 22:10
Ed Boyd wrote:
<<<I only am considering the kaishu forms from Goju. Geka Sai chambers and punches but Geka Sai was a Shorin kata invented by Nagamine (Fukyu Gata I believe it is called).>>>


Ed, Gekisai Dai Ichi and Ni are attributed to Chojun Miyagi. He along with Nagamine were commissioned to come up with introductory kata in the 40's. Nagamine's contribution was Fukyugata Shodan, while Fukyugata Nidan(Gekisai Dai Ichi) was Chojun Miyagi's contribution.
George Yanase

CEB
7th October 2002, 02:27
Originally posted by sanseiryu
Ed Boyd wrote:
<<<I only am considering the kaishu forms from Goju. Geka Sai chambers and punches but Geka Sai was a Shorin kata invented by Nagamine (Fukyu Gata I believe it is called).>>>


Ed, Gekisai Dai Ichi and Ni are attributed to Chojun Miyagi. He along with Nagamine were commissioned to come up with introductory kata in the 40's. Nagamine's contribution was Fukyugata Shodan, while Fukyugata Nidan(Gekisai Dai Ichi) was Chojun Miyagi's contribution.
George Yanase

Thanks Mr. Yanase. I didn't know that.

The oral traidition in our dojo was dai ichi came from matsubayshi ryu and Miyagi Sensei added open hands to it and created dai ni. Thanks again for the information, I value your input highly. I enjoyed your article on the Kenshikai USA web site on the origins of Goju Ryu. I just wanted to let you know.

Who commissioned the kata? was it the school system or was it prefecture officials? Just curious.

Thanks for your support.

sanseiryu
7th October 2002, 04:51
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the comments about the Kenshikai site. Here's a link to an article about the Fukyugata. Titled The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata Promotional Kata, by Charles Goodin.
Scroll down to June 7, 2001 for the article.
http://seinenkai.com/
George Yanase

PingAnTu
16th October 2002, 06:05
I'm really suprised people can't see the difference between training and fighting methods. I guess we in the west have a boxing mentality. Do what works and practice it over and over...

This is a valid approach, but there are others. The chamber, in my oppinion, is a training apperatus. Once you have mastered the mechanics it can teach, you can put your hands wherever you want. It certainly isn't meant to teach hip rotation. But it can train the habits to execute a powerful punch. But only if it's added to other details like full body connection and absolute coordination. The most important thing it can teach you is how to move your body as a unit. In other words, how to use your body to throw the punch instead of using your less efficient and weaker major muscle groups of the arms. In fact, some of the most famous karate fighters of history have had slight looking arms (and frames for that matter). Have you ever seen a picture of Chotoku Kyan?

This type of training is valid, but it takes longer and isn't palatable to western impatience. The upside is that you still can use it when you are older... no telegraph needed. Nagamine Sensei, I am told by a source who was very close to him, could generate enormous power even in the twilight of his days. The downside is that some boxers have figured this out naturally, with no need of a chamber. I saw some footage of Rocky Marciano where he did a perfect body explosion body punch dropping his opponent effortlessly. I hate to see that, but love it at the same time...

Paul Adamson

Tatsu
16th October 2002, 11:04
Brian, try again.

(cut by Admin for rudeness and breaking the no profanity rule.)