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CEB
16th September 2002, 16:30
I was wanting to see something in Jion and Jitte. I'm mostly interested in Jion. I was wondering if these forms are part of Matsubayashi Ryu. If so I have The Essence of Okinawian Karate-Do by Nagamine Shoshin packed away in a box from the last time we moved. Are these either of these two forms found in this book. Thanks for your support.

Rob Alvelais
16th September 2002, 17:13
Neither of those kata are in that book.

However, Oshiro Sensei, of No. Ca (bay area) teaches a Jutte. I'm not sure of from where it comes. It's quite a bit different from the Shito Ryu version.

Rob

Rocket
17th September 2002, 02:42
Rob,

I'm not a Matsubayashi practitioner, but I believe the kata of Matsubayashi-Ryu Shorin-Ryu are as follows:

Fukyu 1 & 2
Pinan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Wankan
Wanshu
Ananku
Rohai
Kyan Chinto
Gojushiho
Tomari Passai
Yara Kusanku

Note: Not sure of the exact order in which they are taught.

Cheers!

"Rocket"

Roy J. Hobbs

kusanku
18th September 2002, 02:59
The official syllabus and the official order in which, these days, they are taught, is:

Fukyu Ichi and Ni
Pinan Shodan-Godan'Naihanchi Shodan-Sandan
Ananku
Wankan
Rohai Wanshu
Passai
Gojushiho
Chinto
Chatan Yara Kusanku

However, some instructors may vary the order, ie, may teach fukyu gata ni after a couple poinans, or naihanchi as first forms, or some differences in the intermediate and advanced ones.

The kata jutte/jitte,jiin and jion form no part of the official Matsubayashi Ryu curriculum, but that does not mean that no instructors of that art never teach any versions of these or other kata, I know a couple that even do a version of seisan.

Whether these would be considered Matsubayashi kata or shorin ryu kata, generic, or adapted kata, I don't know.

Some systems of Matsubayashi ryu also teach a kata developed by Ueshiro Ansei, called Fukyu Gata San, featuring the zenkutsu dachi used in a forward moving manner.This brings their syllabus up to nineteen kata.

Those who use the official syllabus however, in whatever order and with whatever emphasis, usually find the eighteen or nineeten empty hand kata quite sufficient for practice or training purposes.

Especially since Matsubayashi Ryu people also tend to like Kobudo quite a bit, not all but many, and use various systems of that, as well as kobujutsu or kobudo kata passed down by Nagamine, or in case of Kishaba etc, Yamanni Ryu and such.So then, we are talking about a lot of Kata. Mr. Daulton I believe uses the Akamine Kobudo kata, and others.

This can run into a lot of forms.

I think the reasons most Matsubayashi ryu people don't use seisan or jitte or jion, is because those kata tend to have some tension moves done slowly in them, and this is pretty well verboten in Nagamine's philosophy, who believed such kata will hasten your death. Since he lived to be ninety, his philosophy at least did not hurt him, regardless as to how bad for you such kata are, I tend to think, not so bad if you do them right. But its true that some schools of Shorin avoid such kata.I think, more for speed purposes than anything ewlse., but, I may be wrong there.

Doug Daulton
4th October 2002, 03:24
Having seen Jion performed many times, it is interesting to note that the embusen, if not the waza, is very similar to Maezato no Tekko from the RKHS curriculum. I am not suggesting they come from the same root, just that they share similarities.

Regards,

Rocket
4th October 2002, 22:05
Doug,

Great observation! You're right. I wonder why that is.... Anybody out there got any insight on this?

"Rocket"

Roy J. Hobbs

Doug Daulton
4th October 2002, 22:20
Thank Steve, one of my students. Also, a Shotokan Shodan, he has all of the JKA series of video tapes and used to religously watch them. He first noticed the similarity and pointed it out to me.

Regards,