Is This Unethical?

[chrisdo14]

I have a small problem at school.Their is a group larger than mine(not physically)and they enjoy picking on some of the smaller guys in my group.Unfortuantely for them they picked a fight with me and I won (not against all of them at once).There afraid of me and my other friend who is an equally skilled martial artist but when were not around they pic on my smaller friends.However when we show up they stop. we fought them once before and they didnt boTher us for a while. if we fight them again they might leave my friends alone.but we cant start the fight though we knoW they would moRe theN enjoy fighting with us we dont want to start the fight. Is it ok to turn the bullying into a reason to fight with them its not self defense directly but were trying to protet our friends what should i do?

[Bruce Mitchell]

I know this is an important question, but I cannot stop thinking of the cycle of violence in tribal societies (sorry to diverge here).In many tribal societies, they frequently resorted to violence (harrassment, raiding, murder, war)to resolve conflicts with another tribe, because they lack other forms of recourse. Their is no one governing body to ensure accountability, with impartiality. So if tribal member A beats up tribal member B, then tribal member B gets some friends and raides tribe A's village. Tribe A will then probably counter with a raid of their own. And so on and so forth.

We however, do live in a society with a governing body, which is able to enforce rules (laws) on it's members. Your training should teach you that your MIND is you greatest weapon. Therefore, I recommend reporting the behavior of these bullies to the Principle/Superintendent of the school. If that fails, contact the police. If someone is seeking to harm you or your frineds, IT IS ASSUALT, AND IT IS A CRIME. Making the decision to take this type of action takes far more courage than putting up your fist (which also requires courage). No matter how skilled you are as a martial artist, you cannot win every fight, and each fight that you do win increases the odds that you will lose one in the future. Your safety and the safety of your friends should not be taken lightly. We live in a time when people have been murdered in school bullying incidents. Do the right thing! Contact the appropriate authorities!

Several years ago I had two seperate occasions where I dealt with violent individuals who entered my work space (a retail shop in San Fran.)In both cases I placed myself between the individuals and my coworkers/customers. In both cases I was attacted, but fortunately was able to use my training to defend myself, and subdue and restrain the individuals. In both cases I had coworkers call the police, and turned the attackers over to them and filed assualt charges. To do otherwise would have been to act as a vigilante and would have been illegal. In one of the cases the individual was carrying a hyperdermic needle, which had I been stuck, could have had very serious implications for me (aids maybe?). While my martial arts skills helped, in the end I got lucky, and you can't always be lucky.

I hope that what I have written helps. Best wishes,
~ Bruce Mitchell

[Chris Schimdt]

Bringing in the authorities can cause more problems than it's worth. But our friend here is right. You can easily turn this into a downward spiral. I would say too use your voice. Talk to the other group of kids and ask them to leave your friends alone.
There is no reason in the world for them to bother your friends. On top of telling them, tell other peers. Maybe you can get more people to side with your cause if you do not resort to violence.
BUT defending the weak is alwaays a good thing. Just stand by your character.

[Markaso]

First of aall Chris a please sign your full name.

Secondly you put forth a very good question. I myself hate any kind of confrontation or fighting but will I let anyone walk all over me because of that? I think not.

I think it is a noble idea to protect your friends if they can not themseves but I also think that you are getting into an area that could turn ugly in the future. As a practitioner of MA for a while I have learned there are some other ways that you can use in order to diffuse a bad situation. I have always learned that MA is for defense only. Yes, it is hard when someone is in your face. By using your head things can get better for you and your friends. One of the things you can try is to try to avoid the areas where thes bullies hang out and try to stay in groups.


Good luck in the future.

[Soulend]

I think a bit depends on what they are doing specifically. If the 'picking on' consists of name calling, etc., I wouldn't resort to violence to solve the problem. However, if your smaller friends are being outnumbered and beaten up this may be a different story. Regardless, if they are doing this on school grounds I think school officials should be notified, who in turn should contact the parents of these kids.

I cannot stand a bully, because every one I've known is nothing more than a coward when confronted by someone who is their same size or bigger. So, I could not really fault you for sticking up for someone who cannot defend themself. But I would urge you to try any other means first, starting with the principal (or headmaster). There is no shame in this.

In light of the school shootings that have occurred in the past few years, I would hope that they take this kind of behavior more seriously than in the past.

[Jody Holeton]

Dear Soulend and Chris,

Good points BUT I would still be careful with dealing with school officials. I would recommend contacting a parent first (someone who can look out for this individual's interests) and then with that person go to someone in authority (having a witness always helps).

There are so many laws on the books and zero tolerance issues nowadays that even the bullied could experience negative ramifications.

Saying that, NO ONE has the right to assault you. Know your rights, see what the situation is and consider ALL your options.

Violence is an option and it does solve problems but it can cause further strife so know what you are getting into.

If zero tolerance is going to get both parties expelled (both the bullied and the bully) you might want to consider different tactics.

[shadow42]

I will say some stuff here that is odd, cause this sounds like the story of my high school life.

I would say fight them. There are 2 possible outcomes
1 they realize they cant beat you, they leave you alone
2 they just get more of their friends and come get you when you dont expect it

depending on the type of people your dealing with here, youll have to pick which is more likely. Where i live, rule number 2 is law. Beat somebody up, even if they start it, and they just get more of their cronies to come get you, and it degenerates into an almost war-like situation. Going to and Involving school officials usually means the following:

1 you get beat up anyway
2 you lose respect ( it sounds stupid, but it tends to be true)
3 The school officials do nothing, because you have no evidence
4 If you do fight and they find out about it , regardless of evidence that they might have previously wanted, most likely you will be suspended. they call it 0 tolerance, i call it crap.

I had very similar problems in previous years in high school, and im still there. The only way we got those guys to leave us alone was to make em scared of us. The best way to do that that you can hope for is just be crazy enough that they get scared of you on their own. but dont count on that. Stand up to em every chance you get, and tell your smaller friends to do it to. Never back down, never surrender. Submission and fear is what they want, and you should never give in to either. I'm probably gonna get a lot of flak for this, but it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. Dont take that literally and get yourself killed. I know it will be said that its just name calling and its not a big deal, this is how schools approach it, but its generally more than just that, and its generally psychologically damaging to the victims. So kick their arses.

[chrisdo14]

thank you for your posts

myriends and i dealt with the problem. kinda they dont pick on us anymore but the problem wasnt resolves there is stil a great deal of tension. unfortunately it is true that going to the authorities(principal) wil cause people to lose their respet or you. the way the fight never happened was the vice principal heard some boys talking and decided to end it now he put up a zero tolerance rule which would only last for a few more weeks and no one will think about it again. the tension still exists an now i fear i may goad them into a fight not on purpose though but the fight will still happen it is only a matter of time. they did not appreciate being forced to back down(most of these boys are alread on probation) by the threat of suspension or worse if theyre on probation. this fight is un avoidable (excuse my horrible grammar and spelling im in a rush)

Chris abounayan

[Jody Holeton]

Dear Chris,

I have been there, done that!

Know your options, know strategy (Mao's and Sun Tsu's small group/geaurila tactics were what my Grandpappy had me read).

I had a principle threaten me with expulsion once, it only applied on SCHOOL GROUNDS. Get the laws that they are using and USE them to your advantage. Laws have holes, find them.

These bullies, find their strengths and weaknesses.
Are they jocks? Preppies?
Are they rich or poor?
What ethnicity or style do they represent?
How big of a group? Who is their leader? WHat type of leader is he/she?
Can you set them up with a camera/tape recorder or some evidence of their bullying? Newsweek would LOVE a story like that!

[gmellis]

Chris,
I agree with both Tom and Jody. Bullies are not necessarily cowards at heart. Some are nasty, mean and take pleasure in hurting others. And may not be scared away when one of their members is beaten up. If these guys are the first kind (merely cowards), your task is easier. If they are the second kind, taking the high road of relying on adults and non-violence will make your life a living hell, and YOU will be the one losing ground, not them. That's when you need to take things into your own hands and use not just your fists, but your head.

First-Learn the school laws and regulations of your school so you can form strategies to avoid breaking them. Up to what area near the school is fighting banned and punished. If these guys come to attack you, and you don't want to or CAN'T fight all of them, withdraw to to within this area, AND DO NOT FIGHT BACK! If you wan't to fight them, make sure you are OUTSIDE THIS AREA, so that the school laws cannot apply to you and punish you. This is one example. The best strategy is one where you lose as little personal ground as possible, while your enemy loses as much as possible.

Second-(Like Jody said) Study these guys. Learn their heirarchy (who is boss, who is number two, who is a goon?). Do these individuals have weaknesses? Strengths? Ask around about this? Are any of their members being treated poorly by them? You could approach these individuals in secret and maybe strike a bargain for information or assistance? (Never fully trust their word in such a way that you could be ambushed or betrayed though!) Make a folder on these guys. Continue to add to it. Just keeping information on them, their families, etc. may result in a sudden inspiration for a strategy (Do they have a strict mom who would beat their but to China if she knew what their child was doing? for example). You can't defeat them until you know what weakens them. Also, the best strategy wuold be one that defeats them without them knowing that you had anything to do with it (Is one of them doing something he is not supposed to? An anonymous phone call to their house MIGHT make their lives a living hell for a while, for example)

Third-Are there others at your school who are bullied by these other other groups? Or others who support your cause? Form a group that accompanies one another to and from school. Create an order in how people pick up and drop each other off (Example: You (the strongest) pick up the next closest, strongest person in your group on the way to school. You two then stop by the next persons house, etc. etc. The order reverses on the way home) This strategy can keep you safe in numbers until you can form and execute a strategy to control and beat these guys. Strategy is about both offense and DEFENSE.

Fourth-Continue to train yourself and grow stronger in whatever fighting art you know. There may come a time when your defeating and chasing these guys away may rely on YOU directly confronting their strongest guy or leader and pummeling him into the ground. This is the last choice, but in the real world, you may not have a choice but to fight. And if you fight, make sure you win, or you may lose all the ground you gained from the above tactics. You will also encourage the bullies to redouble their efforts if you lose, because now they know that the defender of your friend (you) are beatable.

Five-Don't be afraid to bring adults in when you think things are getting over your head. You should at least inform you parents that you and your friend are trying to deal with a bully. If things fall apart and you cannot think up of a solution to resolve it, THEN get the prinicpal involved. As mentioned before, teachers and principals may have their own agenda and may not or CANNOT do what is in your best interests. But is you are out of choices, then approach them and explain the problem.


I'm sure there are other things you need to do to beat these guys. I'm sure others here have some good ideas as well.

MAIN POINT: TRY TO BEAT THESE GUYS USING YOUR MIND FIRST, AND THEN YOUR FISTS. THIS DOESN'T MEAN BEING A VIGILANTE, BUT IF YOU LEARN ABOUT THESE GUYS AND TAILOR A PLAN ACCORDINGLY, YOU CAN BEAT THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT YOURSELF IN DANGER. THIS IS REAL MARTIAL ARTS. THE KUNG FU STUFF IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE CAN'T THINK THEIR WAY OUT OF A PROBLEM, OR CAN'T AVOID IT.

Jody is right though. Don't let these guys ruin your life by messing you. Control them back.

[Jody Holeton]

Subterfuge also works in situations like these.


I had an interesting bullying encounter "corrected" by police. Seems that some of the kids who I was having problems with got busted with weapons (nunchucks, arnis sticks etc.) in their car. Somebody dropped the dime on them.

Nowadays it's the police departments civil duty to investigate leads on drug, weapons, child abuse, animal abuse etc.

People who go out of their way to bully others usually have something to hide, find it and burn them.

Be careful about NOT fighting back.
I believe the best defense is a good offense.
Violence is ALWAYS an option, just understand the consequesnces and know where your rights end and your opponents begin.

My high school's motto was "Don't get caught!"

P.S. You can always call in a ringer to put these kids in their place.

ie. telling a local martial arts instructor what these kids are doing, calling one of the anti-bullying helplines, etc. etc.

[chrisdo14]

thank you for all of your sugestions. I would like to inform all of you that i attend a private school and the class the whole ninth grade is only 35 people. this is unlike a public scholl where there are few hundred in each class. i dont know if this an dvantage or disadvantage. My parents and sensei know about these bullies as well. the problem is that a short while ago the approached us and were trying to intimidate us and a small scuffle broke out(just pushes and shoves nothing major)and they backed down for the moment. how ever at the time all of them were not there an shortly afterward the vice principal talked to our class about violence and like is said before most of these kids are on probation. they havent fought with us in a while but there is always that occasional dirty look or pretending they "accidently" knocked down one of my friends. i know its wrong but i would really like to hurt these guys half the time unfortunately i dont want to be the one to start the fight so for now everythings quiet. but in a while when the facultys not watching theyll get rowdy again. thank you foryou support and for reminding me to read the art of war again.

chris abounayan

[tetsu]

It sounds to me like you are in 9th grade? In a private school?

Unless your school is some kind of reformatory, there is probably no true justification for getting into a fight. Esspecially since you claim to be a martial artist, you should develop your own mind enough to avoid something that as a 9th grader is a no-win situation.

Let's face it. Most private school punks simply do not pose a serious threat of bodily harm. To me, it appears that you are looking forward to a fight with them for personal glorification.

That's fine if that's what you want, but at least be honest about it.

J.T.

[falang gwai]

Another alternative to fighting -- get this book:
The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education -- Grace Llewellyn

I trained as a historian and the more I learn about the history of schooling, the more I am embarrassed that I lacked the guts to drop out. After grade 12 I managed to stumble through university because I was smart but it took me several years to relearn a passion for learning.

[mech]

You come here Mr. Abounayan to Mind and Spirit / Budo no Kokoro to expose your 9th grade case wich Im sure must be serious to you.

Does what you have read from these gentlemen have any sense to you?

or this would help you to sort things out?

You have your right for Self defense
You must let know the case to the authorities and parents
You dont need to know to pilot a ship in order to solve a kayaks problem (art of war)

Mech
Manuel Ch. A.


"Losing doesn't eat at me the way it used to. I just get ready for the next play, the next game, the next season."

Troy Aikman

[Jody Holeton]

DUDE!!

If you are still reading this thread after all this time (started 2 years ago I think).....

KICK THEIR ASSES!!!!

If you are still under 16, beat the SH!T out of them one by one and stop their little preppie click!

Don't do a Columbine, don't turn into a Jeffry Dahmer, get some MOFO payback now before this crap haunts you.

If you are over 16, beat the SH!T out of them BUT know your rights and CYA!!!

Life is short, take it from me, you don't want the bully sh!t haunting you....


Take it from a guy named Jody, raised to turn the other cheek....


You ain't jesus!!

Take care---the jodinator

[Soulend]

My, Jody, so aggressive! :D

[kage110]

Got to say I agree with Jody. I was raised to think that fighting was the extreme last resort (though I was raised to accept that fighting might sometime be necessary) and so was scared of fighting as a kid, incase I got into trouble with my mum. I got bullied a bit physically but I did fight back against that and put a stop to it but I had no way of stopping the verbal and mental stuff that went on. Now I just wish I had kicked the c**p out of the little s**ts when I had the chance!

All I ever wanted was to be left alone and while there were very few who would have physically bothered me a lot felt safe giving me verbal abuse because they knoew I wouldn't punch them over it. It is the age old story of 'I wish I knew then what I knew now'. He ho. Life goes on.

[Jody Holeton]

AHHH!!!

SOulend!!!

You say the SWEETEST things!!!

Love and sushi--Jody

[mech]

9th grade, 11th grade, same thing.

Mech
Manuel Ch. A.

[Mekugi]

Don't do drugs, stay in school, for god's sakes don't shoot anyone.

-Russ


Originally posted by chrisdo14
I have a small problem at school.Their is a group larger than mine(not physically)and they enjoy picking on some of the smaller guys in my group.Unfortuantely for them they picked a fight with me and I won (not against all of them at once).There afraid of me and my other friend who is an equally skilled martial artist but when were not around they pic on my smaller friends.However when we show up they stop. we fought them once before and they didnt boTher us for a while. if we fight them again they might leave my friends alone.but we cant start the fight though we knoW they would moRe theN enjoy fighting with us we dont want to start the fight. Is it ok to turn the bullying into a reason to fight with them its not self defense directly but were trying to protet our friends what should i do?

[chrisdo14]

i dont know what to respond to first, or even how to respond. first let me say even though it is a private school and it was ninth grade(i am now in tenth, still young and inexperienced) does not mean that nothing physial was going to happen, especially with these type. I attend armenian school and the reason i mention this is to show that armenians from all different areas of los angeles including some of the areas which are more gang related attend my school. although what they say is probably just lies put out in order to intimidate others i would not put it past them to get a bunch of friends and attack a single person weaker than any of them. Also them being there and me having to prove myself was probably a sunconcious factor which i am ashamed to admit but no ones perfect and i resisted it and did not go through with it just to show off. in fact i have had a few more opportunities to start up a fight and give into the goading of others, but i didnt because everyone says its the right thing to do and u should only fight in self defense. I didnt start any fights and i truly do feel bad that i didnt, not only because i regret not seeing if all my training has paid off but also to show these people especially those who are so sure of themselves and have no humility that its better to have friends who like you than enemies who fear you. i would bet they wouldnt be so cocky after getting smacked around a little(now i sound arrogant and overly proud, i apologize)and would have more respect for those who are not as strong as them.well now i am just ranting. basically they are gona now and the new bullys are in different classes and we dont interact much during recess. so no worries for now but if i failed to answer any questions please feel free to ask. sorry for ranting