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Bjorn
20th September 2002, 22:34
Related to the samurai walking methods (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=13968) thread:



Early one morning when I was waiting for a horse-car on a corner near an office building there passed an old man who had the slight droop of the left shoulder that always marks the man who once wore two swords.

(From SUGIMOTO, Etsu Inagaki (1926) A Daughter of the Samurai, pg 32 (end of chapter IV), emphasis added.)

That note about posture was an in-passing comment while talking about the man in question, who was a samurai during the Meiji Restoration. What would cause that shoulder droop?

Any thoughts or input would be much appreciated!

hyaku
21st September 2002, 01:06
I will take a shot at this. Not so much based as guesswork as looking in the mirror.

I would not so much call it a droop of the left as a rise of the right.

I can also push fifty percent more weights with my left leg which is also related to this problem in my case.

A problem related not the carrying of swords but using them.

In Japanese for want of a better word "shokugyo-byo" is the word.

This means industrial injury but relates to "trade"

Japans one foot footward culture has an eventual effect on the body. If you hold an swing a rather heavy object for hours on end with right hand at the top left at the bottom. Generally stand and move for hours on end with the right foot forward, left back it will change you physically.

When I used to practice Kendo ten times a week my problems were even more agravated with neck, back and knee injury. Fortunatley I have never suffered from ankle/achilles problems but lots do.

Just checked in the mirror and sure enough my shoulders are off-set. When I finish this letter I am in the dojo for a few hours more so I doubt if they will straighten up as there is a definate lack of balance in muscle build up.

I am sure lots of people that do other Budo can join in the thread and tell us of their own unusual bodily changes due to long hard continuouse practice.

Hyakutake Colin

R Erman
21st September 2002, 01:36
Ironically my first true budo teacher emphatically stressed symmetry in training. We practiced all waza, empty handed or weapons, on both sides. He was absolutely convinced that, besides his knowledge of strategy, Musashi was such an singular swordsman because of his symmetry developed through his two sword style.

I cannot really comment on the validity of that because I'm not that familiar with Niten Ichi ryu. But the principle is sound. And I'm a much more well-rounded budoka because of it--although I still favor one side over the other--but most people do.

hyaku
21st September 2002, 03:20
Hello Mr Erman

I was reffering more to my years of Kendo, Battojutsu that had produced this disfigurement. I suppose I could also add Iaido when it comes to knees

Indeed in Musashi's later life he stressed the importance of natural movement. More classical budo also uses a different set of arm muscles. So If I had started Hyoho Niten Ichiryu from the outset I would have perhaps developed a different set of physical characteristics. Nevertheless we still used mostly a predominant right foot holding weapons with two hands.

I agree with you that nuturalness is the key to any good technique But we still have to go through the mill the get there.

Incidentaly Musashi's style is not a two sword style although there are two sword techniques within the ryu. :;)

Regards Hyakutake Colin

R Erman
21st September 2002, 03:28
Originally posted by hyaku
Hello Mr Erman


Incidentaly Musashi's style is not a two sword style although there are two sword techniques within the ryu. :;)

Regards Hyakutake Colin

You know, somewhere in the shadowy, cobwebbed recesses of my mind I "knew" this--or had at least heard it. I was kinda making a general statement that I didn't mean to. Although I still admit to not being familiar with the style.

Brently Keen
21st September 2002, 05:32
I'd pretty much concur with Hyakutake's observations on the "droop". I suppose I haven't trained with swords long enough to aquire it for myself though, but his comments certainly make sense.

Personally symmetry was stressed in my Daito-ryu practice, and I've often wondered if it's not a carry-over from the "aiki nito ken" portion of the traditional curriculum.

My understanding is that this school of nito used two long swords, probably more for training purposes than for actually fighting with - as I can't seem to recall any accounts of Takeda samurai (or anybody else) habitually carrying two long swords as opposed to the normal daisho. Sokaku Takeda's own kenjutsu was highly unorthodox by most accounts, and he was said to be equally adept at handling a sword in either hand.

As far as posture goes, Daito-ryu's posture is typically much more erect and "natural" than many other styles.

Brently Keen

fifthchamber
21st September 2002, 14:43
Hi all.
Nice conversation and a good one for the answer to my next question about the 'Kuwabatake Sanjuro's' characters leaning to one side (See 'Yojimbo' for what I mean..)...
I understood the Daito Ryu's Nito techniques to have come mainly from the Itto Ryu and the sword techniques used in the school for both blades. I believe that it was Takeda Sokkaku-S that had studied the Ono-Ha Itto Ryu before becoming head of the Daito Ryu teachings...Among other schools also. This would have been an element in the way that he knew to use the swords and the way he taught them and passed them on I guess...
Hyakutake-san: What is the preferred method of carrying the Choken in the Kage Ryu? I saw your photos and you carry it slung through the Obi...I was wondering if, due to the weight of the sword whether the Kage Ryu has other methods? (Possibly over the shoulder?) That would have helped both the carrying and the prevention of the 'stoop' mentioned here...And has it developed through the long wearing of the swords or through the training with the swords (Which one led to it IYO?)...Sorry for too many questions.;)
Thanks...Abayo.:cool:

hyaku
22nd September 2002, 01:59
Originally posted by fifthchamber [/i]
Hi all.

Hyakutake-san: What is the preferred method of carrying the Choken in the Kage Ryu? I saw your photos and you carry it slung through the Obi...I was wondering if, due to the weight of the sword whether the Kage Ryu has other methods? (Possibly over the shoulder?) That would have helped both the carrying and the prevention of the 'stoop' mentioned here...And has it developed through the long wearing of the swords or through the training with the swords (Which one led to it IYO?)...Sorry for too many questions.;)
Thanks...Abayo.:cool:
...........

Hello there.

I think the stoop is mostly from using it. But as you say carrying it would add to the problem if it was on daily basis.

My biggest problem is trying to negotiate in between and in and out of all the modern structures. Which really brings it home to me that these things long or short were not made for using indoors. Amazing when you watch the Jidai geki that everything seems to naturally move "outside" as the fight progresses!

Also modern Japanese have no thought for carrying these things. Years ago they might have given you a wide berth but not now. "Hold on. Stand back everyone! Someones coming through with a sword" is not the case.

We have a strict no etiquette policy before exibition/demos. Any etiquette to the sword is a personal thing done before we go on and after we come off. So its swords in the obi before I start and the quick one handed bow from tatehiza. Others are so used to sitting in seiza they are at an absolute loss what to do outside. "So" many bring a sheet to lay out to to demos on. " Err hold on Mr. I have to get out my sheet before we fight"

I do carry it on my shoulder sometimes. I have no sword bags. Fishing bags, ski bags anything that looks less inconspicuous. So I can quitely come and leave rather than sort of swagger about.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

ghp
22nd September 2002, 16:40
So I can quitely come and leave rather than sort of swagger about.

:D However, I suppose one can develop quite a "samurai pose" from carrying 10 pounds of Kage-ryu swordS on your hip -- or shoulder [your entire training stock, I mean; although I use only one, sometimes I carry 3 or 4]! :D

Seriously, though, Colin: how much gear do you carry to and from keiko? [Choken ga nan furi desyooka?] I already know how much bogu weighs, but what about all that steel you use in Kage ryu?

Curiously yours,
Guy

Brently Keen
23rd September 2002, 23:35
While it's true that Sokaku received a menkyo in Ono-ha Itto-ryu (from Toma Shibuya), and he taught that system of kenjutsu, as well as (or in some cases along with) Daito-ryu Jujutsu and Aikijujutsu, there is also within the traditional Daito-ryu system a "two-sword" curriculum - known as "Daito-ryu Aiki nito-ken" or sometimes referred to as "Aiki Nito-ryu kenjutsu". As far as I'm aware, these are not related to, or derived from Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu.

Apart from Daito-ryu, the three schools of kenjutsu that Sokaku Takeda studied and trained in rather extensively were:

Ono-ha Itto-ryu
Jikishinkage-ryu
Kyoshin Meichi-ryu

Brently Keen