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Moriki
21st September 2002, 08:54
For all those who own a Kamidana, either in the Dojo or in your home. Here is a bit of information that may help you.

1.The Shrine should be facing either Eastwards or Southwards.
2.Please do not touch the mirror.
3.Wash hands and rinse mouth before touching any sacred item.
4.Do not breath upon the sacred item.
5.Do not blow out candles or incense.
6.The water in the tree branch vases and the water in the coned cup should be changed everyday.
7.The tree branches, the salt and rice should be changed on the 1st and 15th of each month.
8.The doors on the front of the shrine are allways kept closed, unless a priest conducts a special ritual.
9.Prayers are normally opened by standing up, then two deep bows, two claps and one last bow.When your prayers are finished repeat the same.

Hope this helps.
yours truly
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
INTERNATIONAL SHINTO FOUNDATION MEMBER

Soulend
1st October 2002, 05:43
Wouldn't someone of the Shinto faith know this already?

hyaku
1st October 2002, 06:05
Originally posted by Moriki
For all those who own a Kamidana, either in the Dojo or in your home. Here is a bit of information that may help you.

9.Prayers are normally opened by standing up, then two deep bows, two clapsand one last bow.When your prayers are finished repeat the same.

Hope this helps.
yours truly
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
INTERNATIONAL SHINTO FOUNDATION MEMBER

Don't we have to offset the hands before this?

Hyakutake Colin

Moriki
1st October 2002, 15:57
Dear Soulend,
Yes, a Shintoist would know this already! My post was directed to the people who buy Kamidana by mail order and are not sure of how to use correctly.
I have visited many dojo`s of various Martial Arts that have shrines and some of the Instructors and students do not know the correct way to pay respect to the shrine.
I only gave the list as a basic guidline.

yours sincerely
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
INTERNATIONAL SHINTO FOUNDATION MEMBER

:)

hyaku
1st October 2002, 17:43
Mr Carpenter

With all due respect. I have visited Japanese Shrines now for some 21 years and have also performed Buddhist ceremonies there (This is done at times).

Although we follow Shinto rites at the Shrine the dojo rites and etiquette is usualy far more simplified in the Dojo even if the shrine is dedicated to a departed teacher.

It is perhaps a good thing that it is. As some people of other stong religious beliefs sometimes find it disagreeable.

This is at the moment a highly volatile subject here in Japan eg. Yasakuni Jinja

Regards Hyakutake Colin

Moriki
2nd October 2002, 06:43
Dear Hyaku.
I totally agree with you, thats why I did not include any of the actual ritual performed at Shinto Ceremonies.As I said, the list I posted was very basic, but I feel my self very important.I once saw an instructor pick up the mirror on the Shrine, breath on it and wipe it in his training Gi to clean it! This is not good etiquette, however basic the dojo shrine worship is. My post was directed to these type of people as a basic outline on how to respect the Sacred items on the shrine.At the end of the day, the Kami likes cleanliness and purity so obviously the shrine should be kept clean and pure.

yours truly
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO

Soulend
2nd October 2002, 07:23
My only point was that if someone was Shinto, they probably already are aware of etiquette. If they are not Shinto, and only have a kamidana for decoration, then they probably would not perform the rites (let alone the offerings!) anyway, due to the fact that they are not Shinto.

I have a question though, since Shinto is an intrinsically Japanese faith, would it even make any sense for a Westerner living outside of Japan to be Shinto? I mean, the creation myth speaks only of the creation of Japan, all of the sites sacred to Shinto are in Japan, there is no record or mention of kami existing anywhere outside of Japan (on this earth that is), the priestly garb is based on Japanese court dress of the Heian period, and the main talisman within (can't recall it's name now) must come from the Grand Shrine at Ise, and if I'm not mistaken must be replaced every year.

I am not trying to be argumentative, this is just something I've always wondered.

Also I notice that Dr. Sokyo Ono's description (in his book 'Shinto: The Kami Way') of the prayer ritual for worship in the home is a bit different. But the book is fairly old, perhaps things have been abbreviated in recent times?

Jeff Hamacher
2nd October 2002, 08:41
Originally posted by Soulend
>> ... since Shinto is an intrinsically Japanese faith, would it even make any sense for a Westerner living outside of Japan to be Shinto? <<

the difficulty with answering your question, David, is twofold:

1) some, like E-Budo's own Peter Goldsbury, subscribe to the theory that Shinto is not indigenous to japan, but rather a japanese metamorphosis of Taoism. the Shinto creation myth is viewed by these theorists as a fanciful appendum amounting to not much more than nationalist fairy tales.

2) Shinto is devoid of doctrine; it consists solely of various rituals and rites based upon various superstitions about spiritual purity and protection from evil. it would be awfully hard to label anyone a "Shintoist", apart from the shrine clergy. although many japanese take the traditional spirit world of popular belief fairly seriously, they don't think of deities guiding their actions or thoughts in the way that Christians might concern themselves with "conforming to His Will".

from where i sit, Shinto is another set of rituals to be followed, perhaps only somewhat more important than other social behaviours that must be respected. Brian's advice is worth bearing in mind for those who would incorporate such ritual into their training, for example, but there's really no question, in my mind, of needing to be "faithful".

Soulend
2nd October 2002, 09:17
Thank you, Jeff, and quite right you are. It is logical to suppose that if Mt. Miwa is a dwelling place for kami, then Mt. Rushmore could be too, giving Shinto a more universal nature. And I understand that Shinto is kind of nebulous compared to most major religions that have a holy book, "rights and wrongs", and indeed an actual "God" or "Gods" that are worshipped.

But none the less it is a belief system as well as a way of doing things, but I get the feeling that most people that hang kamidana in their homes or dojo do so simply to give the place a 'Japanesey' ambiance, and don't really believe in kami. And wouldn't belief in kami indicate a 'Shintoist'? So if one does not believe in kami, why would he perform the prayer ritual, offer of sasaki sprigs, etc.? Or even have a kamidana to begin with?

Many enshrined kami, such as Emperor Meiji, for example, seem to relate specifically to the Japanese people. So while a Westerner may venerate this kami, it wouldn't be the same as for a Japanese person.

I hope someone can make sense of my babbling here, and I'm not going in circles or sounding combative..it's 4 a.m. :o

Moriki
3rd October 2002, 00:18
Originally posted by Soulend


Also I notice that Dr. Sokyo Ono's description (in his book 'Shinto: The Kami Way') of the prayer ritual for worship in the home is a bit different. But the book is fairly old, perhaps things have been abbreviated in recent times?


The standard is two bows two claps one bow, However Ise Jingu, Izumo Taisha and Usa Hachiman have their own distinctive worship procedures since ancient times. At Ise Jingu, for example an Eight bows, Eight claps ritual is followed.At both Usa Hachiman and Izumo Taisha, four claps is the standard, While at Munakata Taisha all worshippers jump into the sea Naked and swim to Okinoshima island!. So as you can see accepted worship practice can vary widely by shrine.House shrines are usually connected to a big shrine so the house rituals will change depending on the Kami enshrined there.
The grand Shrine for our organization (World Mate), which is headed by Toshu Fukami Sensei is Koutai Jinja "Sumera Ohkami Yashira. This is the Shrine of "Mioya Motosu Ohmikami.At this Shrine the Tsukinamisai ceremony is conducted by Toshu Fukami to pray for world peace and the happiness of all members of World Mate in Japan and overseas, as well as all of humanity.

Yours sincerely
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
INTERNATIONAL SHINTO FOUNDATION MEMBER

Jody Holeton
3rd October 2002, 01:10
Great info!

Don't worry I wont make any Joseph Campbell comments!:D


Dear Soulend,


Yup! Having a kamidana in a dojo just adds ambiance! Add some weapons on the wall, a certificate in Japanese, a title for yourself and pics from a trip to Japan and you are all set!

Jeff Hamacher
3rd October 2002, 01:14
Originally posted by Soulend
>> But none the less it is a belief system as well as a way of doing things, but I get the feeling that most people that hang kamidana in their homes or dojo do so simply to give the place a 'Japanesey' ambiance, and don't really believe in kami. And wouldn't belief in kami indicate a 'Shintoist'? <<

i can't really speak on what Shinto might have meant to the japanese of yesteryear. the japanese i observe or have contact with largely treat Shinto rites and beliefs in much the same way that many "westerners" might follow certain superstitions, e.g. avoiding walking under ladders or carrying talismans/charms. modern japanese are as likely to follow Buddhist rites as well. the whole japanese approach to the world of "spirituality" or religion suggests adherence to social responsibilities and not our notion of heartfelt, loyal commitment to a single creed. obviously, there are some japanese who have a closer relationship to Shinto or Buddhism, and some will refer to themselves clearly as Buddhists, but i've never heard a japanese call themself a "Shintoist".

as i mentioned above, the very origin of Shinto is shrouded in mystery. to the extent that one accepts the common belief that Shinto is an indigenous religion, the "faith" of the japanese people and nation, then all japanese are Shintoists and no else can become a Shintoist because the faith does not (apparently) conceive of people beyond japan. however, i would argue that modern-day non-japanese can follow the rites (particularly as might be observed in martial arts) in much the same way as japanese do, mainly because the japanese themselves don't take such observances any more seriously. as with other japanese traditions, there are some cases where the modern-day foreigner takes things much more seriously than the modern-day japanese.

i have the sneaking suspicion that i've still failed to answer your question completely, David. i suppose i can sum up by saying that the japanese belief in kami doesn't extend to the "all-knowing, all-powerful" image that we have of the g-word, but like superstition, there is an intuitive belief in things that cannot be scientifically explained. the rituals are important to show proper respect to the spirit world without getting into too much navel-gazing over the one's faith. how's that for some food for thought?

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 01:27
Shintoism, like many ancient religions, is an animistic religion. With limited understanding of the complexities of nature, peoples around the world have always anthropomorphised natural phenomena. So to the early Japanese, trees, rocks, rivers, etc., had a guardian spirit each. This is no different from the myths of the Hopi Indians, or the Celtic Druids. Remember: all religions are basically an attempt to explain our origins, and natural phenomena. They are a biology and a cosmology. Thus, they all have creation myths. The Shinto creation myth of Izanagi and Izanami, the spear and their child as the first Japanese, is no different from Adam and Eve or the Cosmic Butter Churn of the Hindus. Within such context, requirements such as having the kamidana face East (the direction of the rising Sun god), or using sakaki plants to decorate them (an evergreen that therefore "defies" death in winter) becomes clear.
HTH.

Jody Holeton
3rd October 2002, 01:51
Dear Tony,


People create God/god myths.

I'm a Joseph Campbell nut so I'll try not to rant but look at the symbols.

Compare creation myths, the rituals and the characters and you find striking similarities.

From my own experience with Japanese people, for the most part its a traditional thing for shinto and buddhism. WWII kind of shook up Japan (with its truncing of the emperor as a GOD and Japan's eradication of religious competitors).

I agree with Jeff, its like Americans not walking under ladders. Humans are naturally drawn to rituals.

Soulend
3rd October 2002, 02:27
Thank you all for the very interesting, and enlightening remarks. My grasp of Shinto is hazy, although I'm very interested in it. Perhaps if I could even begin to understand how a belief system so close to nature would consider death (a completely natural occurance) evil, I could get a better grasp. But, that's a little off-topic.

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 02:32
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
I agree with Jeff, its like Americans not walking under ladders. Humans are naturally drawn to rituals.
Yes. Stupid, aren't they?

Jody Holeton
3rd October 2002, 02:53
Not stupid....


Its human nature.

Like people drawn to rituals, drawing specific shapes (kanji, crosses, stars etc.) and empowering certain cultural artifacts (like swords, what culture hasn't given swords godlike powers?).


It makes people feel safer knowing there is something MORE to this reality.



Dear Soulend,

Don't marines ever sleep? Quit playing America's Army and go to bed!:laugh:

Soulend
3rd October 2002, 03:02
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
Dear Soulend,

Don't marines ever sleep? Quit playing America's Army and go to bed!:laugh:

Hey I'm just like you Jody - OPEN 24 hours, 7 days a week,
ALL SOULEND, ALL the TIME

:)

Jody Holeton
3rd October 2002, 04:11
Yeah Yeah YEAH!

What the hell do they do to you guys in bootcamp? My dad still gets up at 4:30 in the morning with only 4 hours of sleep!

You are playing a sniper on AA!!
HAH! I knew it!

When will the Marine Corps come out with their own game?
Talk about worshipping a "god house"!

I think the top 3 things that Americans worship are:
1. money
2. their lawns
3. their TVs/entertainment systems

Walker
3rd October 2002, 08:08
”Everybody wants money. That’s why it’s called ‘money’!”

Soulend
3rd October 2002, 11:34
You are playing a sniper on AA!!

Alcoholics Anonymous?

Jody Holeton
3rd October 2002, 23:44
AA: America's Army

Its like counter-strike!:D

Ya gotta love the internet for meeting new and interesting people and then fragging them!

Soulend
4th October 2002, 04:13
Ah, ok, I understand the 'America's Army' reference now. Weirdly enough I'm not big on war based video games. Just can't get into them much.

Moriki
4th October 2002, 11:03
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku
[B]

Don't we have to offset the hands before this?

Yes, after you have finished clapping, pull the right hand of the clasped pair foward a little. Here the left hand might be thought of as the "Yang" half representing spirit and the right hand as the"Yin" half representing the physical body.

yours sincerely
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
INTERNATIONAL SHINTO FOUNDATION MEMBER

Nathan Scott
4th October 2002, 21:54
I visited Ise Jingu a few years ago and took part in O-harai. I seem to recall that the bowing ritual was the standard 2-bows; 2-claps; 1-bow formula.

I've always assumed that this was the more-or-less standardized ritual forumula because it was performed this way at Ise Jingu.

Am I off on this?

Soulend
4th October 2002, 22:09
I had thought that after rinsing the mouth and washing the hands, one made a slight bow, then two deep bows. Then the prayer, two deep bows, two claps with the hands raised at about the level of the chest, a deep bow then a slight bow, and you're done. Guess it's not always uniform.

Joseph Svinth
5th October 2002, 05:26
Religion 101: Put enough cash in the plate, and one's behavior, no matter how odd it may seem to observers, is always interpreted as proper.

Moriki
6th October 2002, 11:28
Originally posted by Soulend


I have a question though, since Shinto is an intrinsically Japanese faith, would it even make any sense for a Westerner living outside of Japan to be Shinto? I mean, the creation myth speaks only of the creation of Japan, all of the sites sacred to Shinto are in Japan, there is no record or mention of kami existing anywhere outside of Japan (on this earth that is)


It makes sense to me. There is a connection.
The Kojiki, the legendary book of old Japan, tells of Izanagi and his creation of the Gods, countries and all mankind. In fact the UK represents Izanagi.
Izanagi created two sets of islands at each end of the Eurasion continental land mass, these were the Japanese islands at the East and the islands of Ireland and Britain on the West of the Eurasion continent.In the western islands a Megalithic culture developed, in the Japanese islands this was known as the Jomon period. There are many connections in beliefs between the two cultures, For instance the Tombs at Newgrange and Mount Tara in Ireland have their entrances facing in the direction of the winter solstice, the same as the Tombs of the Jomon period. Another important common characteristic of the peoples of the Jomon and Megalithic periods is the use of Whirlpool patterns. These spiral patterns are a symbol of the rebirth of the soul.So both cultures believed in death and rebirth.Also both cultures believed in the worship of nature.

This is a very extensive subject so I will stop here. As I have sidetracked a little.
At the end of the day I practice Shintoism because
(A) Its part of my martial tradition
(B) I get to learn about Japanese culture
(C) I enjoy it!

yours sincerely
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
ISF MEMBER

Rennis
6th October 2002, 19:52
To return briefly to the historical conversation... Its important to keep in mind that for the majority of Japan's history Shinto as an individual "entity" didn't really exist. Buddhism and what became known as Shinto were so intertwined that it is basically impossible to separate them. Shrines and temples where on the same grounds if not the same building, run by the same guy, intermixing the same deities, etc. It wasn't until the later end of the Edo period that some nationalist types appeared and tried to separate which beliefs belonged where. The Kojiki and related works were so ignored by this point that the Japanese themselves couldn't even read them anymore and a handful of people had to spend years and years trying to figure out what exactly was in them. This work and Shinto itself was then basically coopted by the whole "emperor" cause and used for all weird things. Shinto as an organized "religion" really only came into its own very recently in history. But I digress...

Best regards,
Rennis Buchner

Soulend
6th October 2002, 20:15
Originally posted by Moriki



It makes sense to me. There is a connection.
The Kojiki, the legendary book of old Japan, tells of Izanagi and his creation of the Gods, countries and all mankind. In fact the UK represents Izanagi.
Izanagi created two sets of islands at each end of the Eurasion continental land mass, these were the Japanese islands at the East and the islands of Ireland and Britain on the West of the Eurasion continent.In the western islands a Megalithic culture developed, in the Japanese islands this was known as the Jomon period. There are many connections in beliefs between the two cultures, For instance the Tombs at Newgrange and Mount Tara in Ireland have their entrances facing in the direction of the winter solstice, the same as the Tombs of the Jomon period. Another important common characteristic of the peoples of the Jomon and Megalithic periods is the use of Whirlpool patterns. These spiral patterns are a symbol of the rebirth of the soul.So both cultures believed in death and rebirth.Also both cultures believed in the worship of nature.


The Kojiki does say that Izanagi-no-mikoto and Izanami-no-mikoto gave birth to the "Eight Great Islands", however this is the first time I've ever read anything stating that this refers to anything except Japan. Even the Kokugakuin Daigaku teaches that this refers to the Japanese islands.

Since the Kojiki, the Nihon Shogi, the Engi Shiki, and the Kujiki were all written during a time when very little outside of the Japanese islands was known to the Japanese, it seems unlikely that they would write about an island chain of which they had no knowledge.

Spiral patterns were used by many different cultures including the Aztecs and Zuni Indians. Many believed in an immortal soul, and during this early period most people were nature-worshippers of one sort or another. I'm sure some of their tombs faced the winter solstice too.

Moriki
8th October 2002, 13:05
Sorry, the theory that Izanagi created the western islands was passed onto me by a Shinto priest as Kuden, not written in the Kojiki.I should have worded my post a bit better.
20,000 years ago the Japanese archipelago did not exsist.All there was, was a peninsula protruding from the eastern tip of the Eurasion landmass.With the end of the Ice age, the Japanese islands seperated from the Eurasion continent.This was known as Jomon Kaishin.This happened a little over 10,000 years ago.
In the Jomon period, of course, there was no such word as `Shinto`, but the religious culture of the Jomon people, as can be surmised from their rope pattern pottery, terracotta figurines, stone circles and wood circles became absorbed into Shinto as the underlying belief of the Japanese people.
After the formation of the Japanese Islands, about 9,000 years ago, parts of the western tip of the Eurasian continent became cut off giving birth to Ireland and Britain, although not written, I have been told that this was Izanagi`s doing.

Until the discovery of the American continent it was thought that there was nothing beyond Japan to the east, or Ireland to the west.Japan was the eastern extremity of the world, and Ireland was the western.

reference notes:Prof. Toji Kamata


yours sincerely
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE MEMBER
ISF MEMBER

Soulend
8th October 2002, 15:12
Interesting theory concerning Izanagi...

Moriki
12th October 2002, 08:25
Another interesting connection is that the legend of Amaterasu Omi Kami hiding in the cave is identical with the legend of the godess `Tea` at Newgrange (Ireland).
The Godess Tea enters a cave and will not come out bringing darkness to the world.The other gods play ceremonial music and perform ceremonial dances until the Godess Tea comes out bringing light to the world.

yours
Brian Carpenter
GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
WORLD MATE
ISF

:)