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Kevin73
21st September 2002, 15:16
I just figured with a thread title like that I get more people to look at my question. LOL

Anyways, serious question though. How many of you who study a set style of karate have incorporated hook punches into it for your own use?

If not, is it because it's not in the style, OR you don't use them because of another reason (for example you feel they don't work on the street or whatever)?

Thanks ahead of time.

hector gomez
21st September 2002, 22:53
IT'S ALL GOOD KEVIN.


Hector Gomez

Sochin
22nd September 2002, 01:41
Our Sensei Kim boxed for a long time in Japan...he taught us to hook high and low, use the knees and waist etc. and added it into our classical Shorin-ji Ryu.

kusanku
22nd September 2002, 10:34
In Shorin Ryu, the three Naihanchi Katas all use hook punches or kagi zuki, both sides, to middle and low levels.

In the way I do Kenpo, Okinawan variety, there are hooks done palm side down and palm side up, to the side ninety degrees, to forty five degrees forward, and to the head region with fists as in up block but hooked in, and that's five different types of hook.

Hook punch may , also, have been the original form of the reverse punch,as Funakoshi is shown doing these into a makiwara.

Regards, and happy hooking.

Crusader21
23rd September 2002, 18:12
Dear Friends,

I've been training in a Karate Form for quite some time now, and have never really had the opportunity to experience the usefulness of a hook punch, nor seen a defense application for such a technique. I suppose we do have hooking techniques... using both the "shuto" and "Heito" ridges of the hand. Would a "Uraken" technique (Back fist) be considered a hooking motion also?

My real question is how one would deffend against a hook punch that seems quite powerful when properly executed? My first impression is to maintain distance and then wait until the punch is thrown. When the opponent is completely committed to the technique I would then try to gain the advantage.... but I'm not quite sure how else to defend... other than typically to not be there.

Whatever information you guys have would be really helpful.. :) Thanks..

Darryl Feilen,
Crusader 21

Ron Rompen
24th September 2002, 01:52
Just my own take on this Darryl, and after I reconsider I may change my mind. However, on to the defense.

Block: Shuto (knife edge strike) to the bicep of the hooking arm by your nearest arm (i.e. if he is striking with right arm, you block with left). This should have the effect of numbing (paralyzing if you are lucky) the arm for at least a few moments

Counter: With the hand which has just executed the block, strike with any of the following:
Nukite (spear hand) to the eyes
Heito (ridge hand) to the ear or temple (not a lot of power there)
Hooking empi (elbow) to the ear, temple or jawline)

In the meantime, your other hand is still kept free to block a followup strike, execute a combination, or grab on for a break or takedown.

Crusader21
24th September 2002, 03:59
Dear Friends,

Thank you Ron for the information regarding hook punch defense. I was able to follow your information clearly and it made good sense. I'm still at a loss to the foot work though. Mind you... I never did ask about that did I? :rolleyes:

If the agressor attacks me with his right arm.. (A right hook punch) I feel that I would most likely wish to "Taisabaki" or sidestep in the direction of his arm travel. In the instance of a hook punch... I feel that to defend with a shuto block/strike would indeed be a good movement... but I feel that the bend in the elbow of a hook punch would permit his arm to still travel around my block and strike me at some point. Would you feel that the "Taisabaki" footwork in the same direction of his punch will avoid the hook movement from moving around the block? It is the bend in the arm that has me most concerned in this case.

As I type this.... I had another thought in that.... if the defender was really fast, the shuto technique might work with foot work heading straight in.... catching the hook punch before the agressor even had a chance to place hip into the technique?

Just some thoughts.

Thanks again...

Darryl Feilen
Crusader 21

CEB
24th September 2002, 19:02
Originally posted by kusanku
In Shorin Ryu, the three Naihanchi Katas all use hook punches or kagi zuki, both sides, to middle and low levels.

...


Hook punches are also indiginous to Goju Ryu.

Goju Man
25th September 2002, 00:06
Hook punches are also indiginous to Goju Ryu.

Furi uchi where I come from.;)

Ron Rompen
25th September 2002, 00:48
Originally posted by Crusader21
Dear Friends,

Thank you Ron for the information regarding hook punch defense. I was able to follow your information clearly and it made good sense. I'm still at a loss to the foot work though. Mind you... I never did ask about that did I? :rolleyes:

If the agressor attacks me with his right arm.. (A right hook punch) I feel that I would most likely wish to "Taisabaki" or sidestep in the direction of his arm travel. In the instance of a hook punch... I feel that to defend with a shuto block/strike would indeed be a good movement... but I feel that the bend in the elbow of a hook punch would permit his arm to still travel around my block and strike me at some point. Would you feel that the "Taisabaki" footwork in the same direction of his punch will avoid the hook movement from moving around the block? It is the bend in the arm that has me most concerned in this case.


Darryl Feilen
Crusader 21

I knew I overlooked something in the original post. Yes, as you suggested (in the part which I deleted), as the block was executed, you step in and slightly to the left. (This requires EXCELLENT timing, and commitment to the counter, something which I personally haven't accomplished yet [grin]}. If you don't step in, then you are too far out of range for the counters which I suggested.

Steve C
25th September 2002, 10:34
Hi, guys. Good discussion. With hook punches, I guess there are two situations you need to consider...

The first is a wild, hooking swing - a punch from an untrained fighter at medium distance.

With this punch, my personal feeling is that dodging is probably your best bet, if you can get the range. The shuto block (or jamming your forearm) into the bicep also sounds good, but it's going to close the distance between you. At that point, a hook of your own would be my first choice.

The second punch you might have to face is a trained, boxer's hook punch, which means you've got a trained fighter within about eighteen inches of your head. Yikes.

It's very, very close and I wouldn't feel confident of pulling off any classic block - there just isn't the time. Supposing a right-hand hook, I'd suggest you duck, raise your left shoulder, and close up your guard on that side by covering your ear or the back of your head with your fist. You are still very close - a hook punch is a very short technique - so some kind of throw to follow? Instinct tells me that a right hook/uppercut-style punch to the groin, followed by a left cross to the chin, but I'm still not sure - what's to stop the guy just falling on you? You're very close.

So - left shoulder defence, right hook to groin, attempt a head lock with left arm?

Hmmm...

Anyway, just some quick ideas.

Steve

Harry Cook
25th September 2002, 12:11
A popular and quite successful answer to the situation refered to by Steve Cooper (close in hook from someone who knows what he is doing) common in the north of England (at least where I lived as a youth) was to spit instantly into the attacker's eyes, grab his hair or jacket and butt him as hard as possible straight between the eyes. I saw this method used more than once in some of the more lively pubs in the north-east of England. It was often followed up with a direct attack to the boll.... (groin) and a variety of heavy kicks delived to the shins, legs or whatever was available - known in the vernacular as "giving him a good leathering". Of course like any defense it works best if you spot the attack before it is launched and your "response" is delivered as a pre-emptive strike. A bit like the current political situation in the Middle east really!!
Yours,
Harry Cook

CEB
25th September 2002, 15:01
Originally posted by Harry Cook
A popular and quite successful answer to the situation refered to by Steve Cooper (close in hook from someone who knows what he is doing) common in the north of England (at least where I lived as a youth) was to spit instantly into the attacker's eyes, grab his hair or jacket and butt him as hard as possible straight between the eyes. I saw this method used more than once in some of the more lively pubs in the north-east of England. It was often followed up with a direct attack to the boll.... (groin) and a variety of heavy kicks delived to the shins, legs or whatever was available - known in the vernacular as "giving him a good leathering.....

Yours,
Harry Cook

Oh yeah!

I thought you Brits were a prim and proper bunch. Your post makes it sound like you guys tavern brawl like a bunch of Yanks. Actually Vince Morris disspelled those misconceptions when I met him a couple of months ago. Come to think about it Mr. Morris liked to head butt also. He discussed how the immigrant population has a deep appreciation of knives. He spends a lot of time on knife defense tactics when he trains law enforcement officers. Sounds like England can be a pretty rough place if you find yourself in the wrong parts.

Martin H
25th September 2002, 15:52
Originally posted by Goju Man


Furi uchi where I come from.;)

It is called Seiken Kage tsuki, in kyokushin.

Steve C
25th September 2002, 16:53
Originally posted by CEB
I thought you Brits were a prim and proper bunch.

Oh, we are. That kind of behaviour is only engaged in by the servants. A proper gentleman would simply give the ruffian a whipping with his walking cane ;)

However, Geoff Thompson, Esq. gives a good description of the vulgar practice of head-butting in 'Real Head, Knees, and Elbows'. Have a look at his newfangled online emporium at http://www.geoffthompson.com/

Also, walking canes for the beating of colonial ruffians can be obtained from http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/lacanne_stick.htm

Steve Cooper

York, NE England

CEB
25th September 2002, 19:13
Originally posted by Steve C


...

However, Geoff Thompson, Esq. gives a good description of the vulgar practice of head-butting in 'Real Head, Knees, and Elbows'. Have a look at his newfangled online emporium at http://www.geoffthompson.com/

...

Steve Cooper

York, NE England

That isn't who I expected to see. The Geoff Thompson I remember was a black man about 6'8" tall and a 4 time WUKO Heavyweght Champion (maybe more I don't know for sure but I think he won it 4 times). He would sweep you and put your ankles where your ears once were. He ran hurdles in track and field and was a tremendous athlete. Haven't heard much about him lately. Is he still around?

I don't know anything about this other Geoff Thompson. He has a web page and makes movies so I assume he is good.

Kevin73
28th September 2002, 18:37
As one person pointed out the differences between two types of hooking punches. I was refering to the short/trained punch like you might see a boxer throw. NOT, the wild haymaker punch that comes from downtown and is very telegraphic.

thanks for all the responses, now my next question is do you prefer to use palm strikes or closed hand for the hook?