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Martin Allerby
26th September 2002, 14:58
Hello everyone!

I`ve just had a discussion with a friend about cross-training. Do you thinking it is good or bad? Should it be encouraged?

My opinion is that cross-traing after a while within SK is VERY good. I think it will make you grow. If you are a Shorinji kenshi and hold Shodan, nidan or above I think it is very good if you get experience from other martialarts (if you try other martialarts before you will probably not have enopugh experience from a singel art to be able to compare).

How do they think? How do they attack? What are their speciallities? Is there something that SK can learn from? Can I broaden my view or I`m I sheeting on my sensei? Is it maybe wrong to test other martialarts?


Special question to branch maters: Would you encourage your students to study other matrialarts or not?

Grateful for you opinions!


Best regards,

Gary Dolce
26th September 2002, 15:48
Martin,

Interesting questions that go to the heart of a debate that I have heard many times. After much thought, my own conclusion is that I could easily spend the rest of my life studying Shorinji Kempo and never stop learning new things (and never achieve mastery of things I have already learned!). I have had a few one-on-one sessions over the years with judo and aikido practitioners, but have concluded that serious study of other martial arts would only distract me from learning Shorinji Kempo. Of course, Shorinji Kempo is not just about techniques and it isn't just about self-defense which is a large part of the reason I have reached that conclusion.

Clearly there are other views on cross-training - there seems to be a whole culture of martial art gypsies that flit from one style to another. In the end, the decision to take one approach or another is a personal one. I will say that I think 1-dan or 2-dan are probably too early to even consider cross-training given my own experience that at those levels I was only just beginning to think I understood Shorinji Kempo, and that since then my "understanding" has been proven wrong numerous times.

Gary

John McCollum
26th September 2002, 19:31
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Of course, Shorinji Kempo is not just about techniques and it isn't just about self-defense which is a large part of the reason I have reached that conclusion.


I agree with this statement 10%! :p

If I was purely interested in self defence, then cross training would definately be of interest for me. No martial art is complete and there are many other styles which could teach us something new. However, I continue to train in Shorinji Kempo in order to master it (or more realistically, to be as good at one single thing as I can be :)). For this reason, focussing on one martial art is the path I've chosen for the time being. As Gary said, anything else would be too much of a distraction. I haven't spent 4 years learning to move one way to unlearn all of that now - I think my brain would explode!

It's not that I'm opposed to other people cross training, however. There are as many different rationals for training in Shorinji Kempo as there are Kenshi, and if anybody else feels that they need to cross-train in order to satisfy those needs, then good for them.

Just don't come back and punch me in the throat. :eek:

luar
26th September 2002, 22:06
Gassh Gary and John:

The points you make are interesting and very much valid. What would you say in regards to learning techniques from other styles that Shorinji does not cover at all? For example, the ground fighting techniques used in Brazilian Jujitsu. I have yet to see anything similar in our style.

Just curious

Gary Dolce
26th September 2002, 23:10
Raul,

Gassho,

I think what we both have said applies no matter what type of technique we are talking about. To put it another way - If you want to learn Shorinji Kempo, study Shorinji Kempo. If you want to learn ground fighting, study ground fighting. If you want to learn tennis, study tennis. Just don't expect that learning tennis or ground fighting is going to make you better at Shorinji Kempo.

It all comes down to what your motivation for practice is.

John,

Can I assume that you and Tony together agree with me 20%? :)

tony leith
27th September 2002, 14:16
I go along with John on this on - cross training per se isn't a problem. I see a difficulty with the possibility of martial arts 'tourists' for want of a better word just extracting what they want from the technical content of Kempo without taking on board any of the philosophy (NB I am not including in this people who are not kenshi participating in kempo classes in a spirit of friendly inquiry/curiosity).

I also see potential problems in trying to learn several systems simultaneously - we had one student recently who shall remain nameless trying karate, aikido, and Kempo at the same time. The results were not pretty. The last difficulty can be reintegrating people that have spent a long time doing something else back into Kempo classes, especially if it's (say) a full contact fighting style.. on the other hand I'd much rather learn about which Kempo techniques work in a full contact context from somebody else, so it's not all bad..

Speaking purely personally, I'd say that for myself the primary point of my training is spiritual development, and in a technical sense I'm not so talented that I feel I'm likely to exhaust the potential of Shorinji kempo any time soon..

Tony Leith

John McCollum
27th September 2002, 21:58
Originally posted by luar
What would you say in regards to learning techniques from other styles that Shorinji does not cover at all?

From a self defence point of view, I'm always interested in seeing other styles "in action". Thanks to E-budo/the internet in general, my knowledge of other arts has increased immeasurably. If you're at all interested in self-defence, you can't be too interested in other arts. It can show where your deficiences lie.

As I said before, I primarily train in Shorinji Kempo for other reasons. I would hesitate to say that my training is an end in and of itself, since there are so many benefits of martial arts training. However, it's the actual process of learning a difficult activity that is attractive to me. The end product isn't so important - there are plenty of people even within my own dojo who are much more naturally talented than me. What is important to me is that I've managed to apply myself for four years (and counting) to an activity that is inherently difficult. In some respects, it would have been easier to do a little Muay Thai, a little boxercise etc... but I wouldn't have been much good at any of them.

About a year ago, I gained my shodan. I found that I had to reassess my training goals - I had studied for about a year to gain the coveted black belt, and felt that I needed goals to keep me going. At the time, I was in a relationship with a music student at the university. She was a performer, and studied the recorder. Despite some obvious differences, there were some similarities in the way we approached our arts. They both require a lot of hard work and dedication, and they could both be construed as "frivilous", for example. Neither activity is exactly a nessecity for a functional society, after all. We were talking one day, and she mentioned that she was thinking of going on to do a postgraduate performance course. This struck me as a little strange - I knew she eventually wanted to teach music in schools. When I asked her why she would want to put herself through this difficult course, she just replied that she wanted to "be as good a performer" as she possibly could, and progress as far as she could. I realised then and there that I should be taking that attitude to Kempo.

From that time about a year ago, I understood that I should be training in order to be as good at Shorinji Kempo as I possibly could be.

Apologies for the extremely wandering, long winded post...hope you didn't get bored. And Gary - my running agreement total with you is now up to 41%. I can't speak for Tony.
;)

Jeremy Williams
28th September 2002, 01:44
Hi folks. Interesting topic. I'm currently training as a kenshi enrolled in the regional Busen here in Japan, meaning that I should be receiving much the same teaching that one would if enrolled in the Honbu. All the instructors are directly appointed and assigned by the Honbu. On several occasions now, we have been advised not to close our eyes to what other martial arts are doing and to feel free in assimilating anything we might feel new or useful from such. The point here would seem to be that SK is meant to be "Goshinjutsu", that is to say, a method of self-defence, among other things. As such, it is imperative that we don't allow parochialism to interfere with our realising that goal. Needless to say, you have to be at least 1st dan to join, so this advice is presumably given on the assumption that you already have a good grasp of the basics. However, with regard to the idea of mastering SK before looking at anything else, it has also been pointed out that you will never "master" your 1st dan techniques until you have learnt those found in 6th dan. I believe that this concept would apply universally, such as when in looking at techniques found in other arts, too. This idea is something with which I can heartily concur, having trained as a professional musician in another life: try watching one of the greats sweating over a one-hand simple, slow C major scale sometime. Anyway, to put it simply, it would seem that the Honbu 1) condones some measure of cross-training, and 2) does not feel that this will necessarily interfere with your achieving "mastery" of the physical side of SK. Hope that helps...

Jeremy Williams

Kimpatsu
30th September 2002, 03:23
Gassho.
I'm the kenshi with whom Martin was discussing this issue, and which started this whole thread rolling.
The point is, you cannot serve two masters. To train in something else whilst being a Shorinji Kenshi is to do your branch master a disservice. It's very rude. Remember: Shorinji Kempo is an apprenticeship system. You apprentice yourself to your branch master. How do you apprentice yourself to two masters? If someone then asks you who your branch master is, how do you reply? I think it's very wrong to turn your back on your branch master like that. And if you tried it here in Japan, your Shorinji Kempo branch master would probably tell you to go and never come back. If you'd rather learn karate, or BJJ, then forget all about Shorinji Kempo. But don't for one minute pretend that training in karate or aikido or BJJ is going to improve your Shorinji Kempo. It isn't.
BTW, I seem to have started a trend for 10% agreements. What does this augur, I wounder? ;)
Kesshu.

Manuel
30th September 2002, 12:41
Hello everybody :).

If Kimpatsu is true (without a doubt he has a great experience in Japanese affairs), I am sorry for our Japanese fellows. Please, don’t understand this as a sign of commiseration arisen from a superiority complex: to tell the truth, normally I envy rather much of which has to do with the practice of Shorinji Kempo in Japan. But if their teachers (a few, I hope) behave as old fashioned teachers according to custom in the traditional martial arts from that country (peculiarly, however, great masters as Jigoro Kano or Morihei Ueshiba did not have any problem when "sharing" their students with other masters) it is a true pain. To the best of my belief, Shorinji Kempo is very far from announcing the exclusiveness of Bushido. I understand that it is another thing. Do you think that the Hombu masters have not shared their experiences with other martial arts practitioners? Do you think for example that Arai Sensei, who is friend of Ishii Sensei (Seidokai Karate), has not practiced with him in some occasion? I don’t know that, but allow to me doubt it. Because it does not seem logical to me that it isn’t so. In addition, according to some information, Shorinji Kempo has been continued nourishing from contributions of other martial arts even after its foundation. And without trying to make a so substantial contribution, but only to grow as kenshis, is it necessary to be a high degree to allow oneself such licences? We know it clear then the western kenshis, considering that, according to I think, our first 6th Dans were granted in 2001. I, by personal choice and practical reasons, do not practice any other discipline in addition to Shorinji Kempo, but it does not seem to me by no means rejectable to know in a practical way, and not only in theory, what other styles can offer to us (or the damage they can cause to us) without losing of view our way started as kenshis. If we are so arrogants to think that they can offer nothing to us (although we have good reasons for not to undertake other practices) we are perhaps committing an error improper of wide-awake minds, therefore improper of honest Shorinji Kempo practitioners.

I suppose that it's possible to say much more on it. Greetings.

shugyosha
30th September 2002, 13:25
kimpatsu, i think you're building your own prison for your mind if you begin to close it.
life is change, martial art is reflect of life.

i will not quote kaiso to contredict you, or telling you that it is better to cross train.
but, if we forget about the phisical part, if the goal of a master is to guide a student to mastery, then he we let him grasp the essence of the art by any mean apropriated for the student, he we let him make mistake, and learn himself.

Kimpatsu
30th September 2002, 13:47
Is Jimi Demi even a Kenshi?
I am not "building prisons in my mind"; I notice that Manuel has not answered my question. Who is your master? You are an apprentice; you only have one master. Who is that? And to compare yourself with Kano Jigoro or Ueshiba Morihei... Need I say more?
I never said you couldn't work out with a friend who is, for example, a karateka; but to join their dojo? Who's your master then? Put another way, why don't you feel guilty for selling out your shibucho, who has, after all, given you everything?
I'm looking forward to the responses to this one (but then again, I do nothing if not court controversy ;) .)

George Hyde
30th September 2002, 15:25
Hi All,

This is an interesting subject and was covered recently in the Aikido forum. For those of you interested in the full thread, you can find it here?

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=110237#post110237

For those of you who want to stick to the SK perspectve, here?s my contributions to that thread?


From the Aikido forum
All good advice above. I'd just like to suggest that perhaps you should ask yourself why you want/need to train elsewhere.

I don't teach Aikido, but I guess it's the same for any teacher - it's often the case that our students may find themselves looking at other art forms because they perceive something to be absent from their existing art. It is also often the case that with a little patience they find that what they were looking for was just waiting for them at an advanced stage of the syllabus, or with the benefit of experience find that it was in fact simply not that important.

I'd suggest that you ask yourself what you think is missing from your Aikido before you begin to look elsewhere. Perhaps you should discuss this with more senior students before addressing the issue with your sensei. I suspect that his response to your concerns will be influenced by your Aikido experience, so you need to be very sure before you approach him - it would be a shame if he interpreted your desire to seek training elsewhere as indication of your lack of interest in Aikido.


+++++++++++++

Hi All,

With regard to the "exclusivity" of Shorinji Kempo - it should be understood that this is more of a general approach rather than a policy. However, for a number of reasons (some of which below) some teachers will make it such and apply it very strictly to their own dojo and those of their subordinates.

My thoughts: First of all, whilst it's true to say that all of the notable masters practised a variety of arts, I think it's safe to say that none of them embarked on alternative or additional courses of study within 6 weeks of first stepping into a dojo. Before doing so they would have acquired a genuine level of expertise and the significant understanding of the fundamental principles that apply to all arts that comes with it.

It's been my experience that the manner in which one learns to perform a particular technique can differ considerably from its correct application - a fact which is by necessity closely held by the teacher until the student is ready to discover it for him/herself. This relationship is entirely dependent on trust and the process of self discovery encouraged by it is fundamental to the whole budo experience.

As I tried to point out upthread - it's common for the student to perceive something to be absent from the art they are studying when in fact they simply haven't spent sufficient time in the forest to tell the wood from the trees. In such cases it's up to the teacher to decide whether the student's desire for an additional course of study indicates awareness of the distance they have yet to travel or a lack of commitment to the current path. In the case of the former I'd suggest serious consideration of shu, ha ri - in the case of the latter perhaps a complete change, rather than additional course of study would be most productive for student and teacher alike.

Of course, there are purely practical reasons for applying the "exclusivity" rule - two teachers of equal technical merit may exercise completely different approaches to teaching. It's a teacher's responsibility to assess the student's needs and since his/her decisions will be based on their individual approach to teaching the possibility of conflict with the other teacher will serve no good purpose for teacher or student. In addition there are broader issues of the attitudes one seeks to encourage in one's students.

In short most genuine art forms offer a lifetime of learning and IMHO patience will bring greater rewards than cross training.

Later,


?and in response to a further question in the thread?




Yes, SK is the only art I've studied. I consider myself lucky to have found what I was looking for (and much more besides) first try. With this in mind I wouldn't want my former comments to seem judgmental of anyone who chooses to study a number of styles from an early stage - I suspect that had I not been entirely satisfied with SK from the start I may have done the same. However, my motive would have been to find somewhere to settle rather than acquiring a variety of perspectives. One thing is for sure, had I done so my sensei would - quite rightly - have required that I absent myself from his classes until such time as I decided to commit to what he had to offer.

Over the years I've had the 'itch' to seek other instruction, but on reflection this was in the main motivated by my general hunger for more of the same rather than an idea that there was something different, better or more appropriate on offer elsewhere. In the rare situations where this has been the case I've had the additional good luck of having a number of senior practitioners ready willing and able to fill in any perceived gaps.





Later,

Kimpatsu
30th September 2002, 15:39
Gassho.
All good observations, Sensei, but none of which address my fundamental point: Betrayal of your master. What's your opinion on that?
Kesshu,

Manuel
30th September 2002, 17:06
Kimpatsu said:
And to compare yourself with Kano Jigoro or Ueshiba Morihei... Need I say more?

Have I compared myself with Kano Sensei and Ueshiba Sensei? :eek: Decidedly, my English is not even the half of bad that I had expected.

Best regards.

Gary Dolce
30th September 2002, 17:33
Tony,

What does "betrayal of your master" mean? It sounds like a bit overwrought, like a line out of a bad kung fu movie.

To me, betraying a teacher would be saying bad things about him behind his back, knowingly behaving in a manner that was inconsistant with what he was teaching, etc. While I personally have no interest in seriously practicing another martial art, I would not feel "betrayed" by a student who did. I might be concerned about the potential negative impact of them spending less time on Shorinji Kempo and I might ask myself if I should be doing something different in teaching this student, but to feel "betrayed" seems really egostistical.

All I would ask is that the student be honest with me about their particiaption in other practice, that they stick to Shorinji Kempo when they are at Shorinji Kempo practice, and that they try not to allow the time spent on the other style to interfere with the time they spend on Shorinji Kempo. Ultimately, it is the student's decision.

BTW - the point about honesty brings up a pet peeve. When people talk to me about joining my Branch, I always ask about other MA experience in order to get a better idea of where they are coming from both physically and mentally. I am dismayed at the reluctance many prospective students have about talking about other MA experience and about the lies or half-truths that many people tell me in response to this question. Why is this?

Finally, one of the problems with e-mail is the exponential escalation of simple misunderstanding. I saw nothing in Manuel's message that indicated he compares himself to Kano or Uesheba - he merely used them as examples of people who didn't seem to have a problem with students doing other MA. He disagreed with you, but didn't attack you. Courting controversy is fine but turning it into personal attack as you did in your response isn't.

Kimpatsu
30th September 2002, 17:34
Certainly, Manuel, your English is way better than my Spanish...
You, I, and everyone else who posts to this board are nowhere near qualified to answer this question. That must be addressed to Mizuno Sensei, Aosaka Sensi, or the Hombu Sensei, basically. But until people recognise the truth of their apprenticeship, this thread is going nowhere...

Kimpatsu
30th September 2002, 18:41
Gassho.
Here we go again...
Let me try to put it another way. If you were training in Japan, and told your branch master that you were also training in something else at the same time, he'd tell you to leave Shorinji Kempo. You are betraying your master. It is to him you are apprenticed, to the exclusion of everyone else.
Arrogant, moi? ;)
May I remind you, sensei, that I'm not the branch master here. Nor will I ever be. So I have no personal stake in the "ego game" of which you are thinking.
Manuel's statement evoked comparison without actually stating it (that's called association). I notice that his comparisons were with the founder of Judo and the founder of Aikido. Not with the founder of Shorinji Kempo. Why not, I ask myself? Does he feel greater empathy with them than with his own Kaiso?
But then again, like someone else on this forum, you don't like me much anyway, so I guess if I turn left, you'll turn right.
Kesshu.

Gary Dolce
30th September 2002, 19:57
Tony,

Gassho,

Why do you assume I don't like you? I have not said that in any message I have sent you. Sometimes I disagree with you and sometimes I agree with you - this has nothing to do with liking you or disliking you. Why do you attach an emotional reference (dislike) to a factual issue (I disagree with you on this particular point)?

Let me try again clarify my previous point. I have earlier stated my reasons for not cross-training but have acknowledged that there are other views on the subject. You have stated your reasons for not believing people should cross-train using words that are emotionally charged - "betraying your master". I agree that there could be many reasons that a teacher would not want a student to cross-train but, in my view, a sense of betrayal should not be one of them. To me this smacks of arrogance - not a quality I value highly in a teacher. However, I never accused you of arrogance knowing that as you put it, you "don't have a personal stake in that ego game".

I have no idea of how the majority of teachers of Shorinji Kempo in Japan or elsewhere would respond to this question, nor did I ever state that I did.
I do know Shorinji Kempo instructors both in and out of Japan who do not prohibit cross-training as well as ones who do. I respect both views and was merely stating my own, which seems to be exactly the reason we are on this forum.

As for my comment to you about your response to Manuel, I will repeat that he did not compare himself to the founders of judo or aikido, even through association (yes, I do know what the word means) - he merely made the statement that they had a different view than yours. I don't know if this is factually accurate and I don't know what Kaiso's views on this subject were. However, I believe that to say:

"And to compare yourself with Kano Jigoro or Ueshiba Morihei...
Need I say more?"

was at best a misreading of what Manuel said and at worst a personal attack.

Again, I will say that e-mail often seems to lead to misunderstandings. You may have in fact just misread Manuel's note, but I still think your response to him was out of line. If you want to assume that my opinion on this means I don't like you, that is your problem. But it would be unfortunate if you let your assumptions about other people get in the way of having positive interactions with them.

Benni
30th September 2002, 20:46
Hi everybody,

Interesting and important topic!

I’m new here, I sometimes reads the forum but has little time to write anything. I really want to give my opinion on this matter though.

I started with “cross training” for about 4 years ago. I have had my focus on Thaiboxing, Boxing and now BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu). For me this has been extremely good. I understand martial arts in general much more and Shorinji Kempo in particular. Not only just the principals behind the techniques but I have also experienced new training methods and values. Further, due to my cross training I have opened my eyes more of differences and similarities.

I started to cross train because I wanted to know more about other martial arts and the practitioners within them. When I for example started to practice thai I suddenly understood the importance of a proper gamae, and how to kick without tension. I also remember some occasions which were very painful and which taught me that I wasn’t so good I thought I was. I later started with boxing which taught me a lot about how to be relaxed and also several good techniques. And, I can tell you one thing, nothing can compares with competing in heavy weight boxing. The scary and nervous preparations, the joy when winning and the shame when being knocked down. Very few things can develop you as much as that can. For about 9 months ago I started with BJJ which also is a great compliment. And yes, it has improved my Shorinji Kempo in many ways. E.g. to use less strength and more balance, that is to really train with focus on finding the right technique.

I understand your opinion Tony but I totally disagree. Shorinji Kempo, and its values are in my heart whatever I do. If I’m training BJJ, competing in boxing or walking through the town a sunny afternoon, the heart of Shorinji Kempo is within me. It’s doesn’t disappear because I’m learning new things from other teachers.

I could write so much about my positive experience with cross training here but I’ll stop now before you all get to bored.

Not seldom though, I see friends who start cross training but then stops after a couple of months due to the big amount of input in time and effort that is needed. This is OK, but sometimes it could also mean that you are so tired that you stop with your Shorinji Kempo. Which was not the purpose from the beginning. Further, if you are new in Shorinji Kempo it is also a risk that you won’t understand why there are differences between arts and that could end up with that you are choosing one art before the other because you want the “best”.

Tony, have you ever practised BJJ? Not just for a month or so I mean? How can you tell that it won’t improve your Shorinji Kempo? What forms of cross training have you done? You have so strong opinions what it can offer so it would be really interesting to hear from where you got your experience.

Tony, are you saying that I have turned my back to my former branch master and maybe also on Shorinji Kempo, with all my cross training?

I often show and include my experiences in my teaching. I also encourage my fellow kenshi and older students to cross train (if they are mature for it), thus I think it is a good way of developing independent persons who knows there capabilities and limitations.

If you out there really want to know what cross training has to offer, try it! Then decide what you think about it.

Best wishes and good training to you all
/Benni Jönsson
Gothenburg Shibu, Sweden

Steve Williams
30th September 2002, 22:06
Hi Benni

I could not agree more with most of your comments....


I too see the benefits of cross training, but never to the exclusion of Shorinji....

I too have "dabbled" a little in a couple of other things... namely Kendo and Aikido.... but I too agree that Shorinji is always with me.... whether it is because it is the first MA that I seriously practiced or not I cannot say.

I like to believe that it is because of all the MA that I have been in contact with it is without a doubt the one with the best, and most "useable" philosophy of any.....

I do not have a view that Shorinji is the number one MA out there(unlike Tony sometimes), I do however believe that it is the most complete MA for anyone who wants to have a fulfilling and rewarding life.

I find that the everyday need to fight is not that great.... but the everyday need to put some of our philosophy into practice is always required.... other MA may be "better" at certain aspects.... (where is Shorinji groundwork?? this is a failing echoed by other instructors I have spoken to, some in Japan!) but as a "complete system" of self defence/self development it is unrivalled.



Just a few ideas..... and Tony.... calm down a little, lots of people have lots of views.... not all of us have the advantage of training under a high graded instructor all of the time, we all find different ways of improving our teaching style, if that means "stealing" ideas from other systems then so be it.... as long as we do not dilute the system that is Shorinji Kempo then we are all trying to create Kaiso's "ideal world".

Steve Williams
30th September 2002, 22:17
Just re-reading the thread......

Did everyone miss what was written by Jeremy?


. Anyway, to put it simply, it would seem that the Honbu 1) condones some measure of cross-training, and 2) does not feel that this will necessarily interfere with your achieving "mastery" of the physical side of SK. Hope that helps...

Does this not answer the doubters??



Instead of reading what we think we see can we all read what is actually there.....

Usually someone posts a good comment, but it is missed because there are so many opinions being argued.... lets all (me included) read what is really said shall we??


(And English is my first language.... no wonder there are so many arguements ;) )

Tripitaka of AA
1st October 2002, 00:53
I never had time to do so, but I did think about doing a little cross-training in order to improve my value to my local branch. Not in a different style of Martial Art, but in some kind of Fitness Training, Shiatsu Class or Japanese Calligraphy. I wonder if that would have been betraying my Master.

One area that has been vaguely hinted at, is how "previous experience" can be seen to add weight to an opinion. I always felt a little uncomfortable when new members to the class asked me if I'd ever studied Karate, Aikido, etc. I could not answer their questions about similarities/differences, and I envied those of my fellow Kenshi who could speak from experience about the superior aspects of Shorinji Kempo. Beginners who were coming from say, Shotokan Karate, obviously valued the comments of an Ex-Kareteka when trying to see if Shorinji Kempo was for them. Of course, the extreme of this would be the daft "8th Dan Master of Judo, 10th Dan Master of Aikido, Professor of Origami and High Priest of Eurythmics"-culture that seems to pervade some of the more commercially orientated Martial Arts Classes.


I haven't trained in Shorinji Kempo for something like 15 years... but I often day-dream about returning. I used to think that I'd give myself a year to warm-up, by taking classes in Aikido, Boxing, Judo (distance running, Ballet, Swimming and anything else that might help me to lose the beer belly). I'll say that my view has been swayed toward the monogamy, one-love attitude and that I now see that all I really want is right here with you guys ;)

Tripitaka of AA
1st October 2002, 01:31
Tony, I like your stance :)

But then, you've always trained with the most senior Instructor in the UK, right from the beginning. Does this have an influence on how intensely loyal you are willing to be (to one Sensei and one Art). You always knew that everything you needed to know was right there.

Perhaps some of the advocates for Cross-Training come from the less-priviledged scenario, where the Instructors are perhaps just a few years ahed of the students. Clubs where the hierarchy is less vertical. Where perhaps the Instructors are more willing to use the positive influences that the Kenshi can bring from outside the Dojo. Where the Instructor is only too happy to see Senior students broadening their knowledge for the benefit of the whole class.

Kimpatsu
1st October 2002, 04:53
The statement about being disliked was an attempt at Woody Allen moroseness. I guess it didn't come across too well. Oh... $%&#! :p
David: Fitness training is not MA, so it wouldn't be a betrayal. Apprenticing yourself to another master, however, definitely would be. Cross-training is wrong because it's a slap in the face for the man who has nurtured you as a Kenshi.
Dolce Sensei: To cross-train is a betrayal. Of course the word has impact, it's meant to. What you're saying is, thanks for all the training, but you just aren't good enough to teach me what I want to know, so I think I'll go glean someone else's knowledge for a while. I find that self-centred attitude reprehensible. Your branch master is just that: your master. Which brings me back to a point I mentioned earlier, but which has not been addressed: If you cross-train, and someone asks you who your master is, how do you reply? You cannot serve two masters. Even if they demand the same thing of you, the samness is only coincidental. And then what happens when they give you conflicting instructions?
Finally, David: The best way to lose a beer belly is to stop drinking beer. ;)
:toast:

migjohns
1st October 2002, 05:06
Interesting discussion going on here. I just wanted to jump in with a quick reply to the following statement from above:

"Let me try to put it another way. If you were training in Japan,
and told your branch master that you were also training in
something else at the same time, he'd tell you to leave Shorinji
Kempo. You are betraying your master."

While this may be true in some dojos in Japan, I can say that in my eight years of training in this country, in several different dojos, that this certainly has not been the case. I have always been upfront with my sensei about my visits to Aikijujitsu or Aikido dojos, or my getting together with karate friends for weekend sparring. There responses have always been interest in other styles interpretation of techniques.

I have had high ranking SK sensei (7th, 8th dans) who knowingly let people train in their dojos despite simultaneously training in judo or karate. One fellow who I presently train with at Kyoto Busen, and who is in the "Kenkyuka" (highest level) class, is an avid karateka.

When I trained SK in dojos in both Canada and the US, I experienced a similar open-mindedness towards training in other styles.

To be honest, if a sensei tried to stiffle my interest in other budo, I would simply find a different sensei with a more open mind.

Cheers,
Mike Johnson

Kimpatsu
1st October 2002, 06:54
There is a world of difference between casual sparring with a friend and actual membership of another organisation. When you're next at the Kyoto Busen, ask Morikawa Sensei and see what he says about serving two masters. My question regarding this subject still hasn't been answered.
Kesshu.

migjohns
1st October 2002, 07:59
Tony,

Regarding your reply:

"There is a world of difference between casual sparring with a friend and actual membership of another organisation."

I know that, which is why added the information about other students being enrolled in other karate and judo dojos while simultaneously training in SK. People do it here in Japan all the time. I just don't want kenshi thinking that cross training is something that is strictly forbidden, when that is not always the case.

By the way, Morikawa sensei is not have much of presence at the Kyoto Busen. He occasionally wanders through, but I've yet to see him do a technique. Lots of other great sensei there though...

Cheers,
Mike

Kimpatsu
1st October 2002, 08:32
I was a member of Kyoto busen for two years. What I was asking was that you buttonhole him when he next wanders through, and ask him for me. Also, please say hello to Hayashi Sensei from the Kamogawa Doin for me.
Kesshu.

Jeremy Williams
1st October 2002, 10:04
Hi Kimpatsu. I'm interested to note that you speak in terms of a "betrayal" of one's master with reference to cross-training. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that imply a breach of some explicit bond between "master" and "apprentice", the failure to keep some spoken pledge? Assuming this to be the case, does that mean that Mizuno Sensei explicitly lays down not training in any other martial art as a condition of studying with him? I really would appreciate an answer on this one, as I may well return to the UK one of these fine and sunny days and would hate to fall foul of the man before ever having even met him! Thank you.

Jeremy Williams

Martin Allerby
1st October 2002, 11:50
Hello everyone,

I’m very glad that this thread has got so many answers/comments. I’m very pleased to hear that many of you branch masters (and Shorinji kenshis) have an open mind towards other MA and doesn’t feel betrayed by students that cross-train.

Personally I don’t like the term serving a master! For me SK is very far from serving someone else. I would very much like it to be a mutual growth both for/between kenshis and between kenshis and instructors. We shouldn’t build bigger hierarchies then necessary! Hierarchies are a simple way to handle disagreements, but far from the only way. A board consisting of only followers are, from my point of view doomed to fail. This has been proven more then once in business situations. You need to study competitors and fellow organisations. We all need our surrounding to exist as an organisation and as human beings. Everybody has something to learn from each single person. The important thing is that we don’t lose the main things.

In a previous thread I referred to a simile told by Aosaka sensei. He stated that SK is like a tree! The philosophy and the basic thoughts, techniques etc. are the trunk of the tree. This is important! However, the leaves and the branches should be developed to fit each country and it’s local culture. There are differences between Japan, Europe, Africa etc. This is a fact! However we can all enjoy and grow in the spirit of SK. As long as the trunk is kept it will still be SK! This simile very much describes the SK that I’m trying to learn. (I’m not saying that we should change SK for the sake of changing – I’m saying that small adoptions is OK and that this is a GOOD thing!)

Serving or betraying ones master feels to me as very old fashioned and not suitable words to use within SK. From the beginning we are thought that we all have the same value and that we should respect both the older and the younger students. This is a very vital part in my daily training.

From my point of view I think it is wrong to say that we (at this forum) can’t answer this question. SK doesn’t belong to Mizono- or Aosaka-sensei. SK belongs to all of us training hard to develop ourselves and people in our surroundings (this of course includes Mizono- and Aosaka-sensei). However, we ALL are SK!! Without the Shorinji kenshis, SK is nothing!

Regards,

Martin Allerby, ShorinjiKempo Göteborg Branch
www.shorinji-kempo.org/gbg

tony leith
1st October 2002, 12:01
Kimpatsu is making some strongly judgemental statements about certain forms of conduct, in other words the choices that somebody might make. He is of course fully entitled to his opinion, but then again so are they: I don't see why any one individual's perspective should override anybody else's on matter of moral or ethical conduct. I don't see that accusing somebody of 'betrayal' because they do something you disagree with is productive way to proceed with a debate: on the face of it, it would seem to a priori deny the legitimacy of the alternative point of view.
As I've already stated, I'm writing as somebody content to practice solely Shorinji Kempo on both technical and philosophical grounds. I do however have good friends who have cross trained in other systems, and I also respect their integrity. I thought we were all supposed to be striving towards a world where people finds means of resolving conflicts, not creating new absolutes that people can organise their prejudices around..

Tony Leith

Kimpatsu
1st October 2002, 12:37
The bond between master and student is stronger than anything. If you take the art and piss it away like that, what value has it been in your life? You're just in Shorinji Kempo for the technical side, and are ignoring the philosophy. Tony Leith: Shorinji Kempo isn't about building a consensus, it's having the strength to say "That is absolutely wrong!" when the case arises. Like now. Remember: Your branch master is you master. To go elsewhere is to betray that master's trust in you.

Martin Allerby
1st October 2002, 14:32
Hello!

Many of the answers/comments come from branch masters and they don’t feel that they are betrayed. In some cases they even encourage their student to study other arts. Maybe the coin has two sides…

However cross-training can’t be totally wrong!

Mike Williams
1st October 2002, 14:44
I hope you'll forgive a non-SK person chiming in here - but this thread has got me (more than a little) intrigued.

Tony, how is acquiring a different (supplementary) skill set "pissing away" your core art? As long as you use the knowledge gained to feed back into your core art, where's the harm?

To use the apprentice analogy: If I'm an apprentice plumber, and take evening classes in carpentry (which may come in handy for my plumbing, but isn't directly taught in my apprenticeship) - have I betrayed my plumbing teacher? If so, how?

Another one: I play guitar. I have recently taken up mandolin. This has forced me to sacrifice some time that I would have spent practising the guitar in order to learn the new instrument. Am I betraying my guitar teacher? Or will the new instrument simply make me a more complete musician?

Finally, your branch-master is your "master". Really? Does that mean unquestionaing loyalty in all respects? Where does the bond end/begin? on the mat? At the dojo door? Or does it govern every aspect of your life?

if the latter, doesn't that border on the cultlike? What if your master is (gasp) Wrong?

I realise that there are philosophical elements to SK of which I'm entirely ignorant, and probably a Japanese sense of hierarchy and etiquette too.

But I'm curious - on the one hand you've argued vociferously against unquestioning loyalty to religions, but on the other you seem to be advocating unquestioning loyalty to a MA system?

(that last bit really isn't meant to be a dig, BTW, I'm genuinely curious, and would be grateful if you could elaborate on your reasoning. Or tell me to piss off, whichever you prefer! ;) )

Cheers,

Mike

Ian Sparrow
1st October 2002, 14:54
Gassho

Reading all of the above posts gives me the impression that the majority of writers have been kenshi for quite some time.
Maybe this is missing the point of the original question but...

For someone just starting (1st year or so) in martial art(s), surely it is valuable to look at several i.e. cross train in order to find the dojo/art/instructor that suits the individual most. This is something that frequently happens here at the university. If a student is to be devoted to one art, one sensei at a time it could take them a large portion of their life just to find something they want to study long term.
I guess that the case is slightly different with say, a 4th dan contemplating cross training. However, I'm so very far away from this position that I can't really comment!

Personally I think cross training is fine if people have the time and inclination to do it. I also think that such decisions should be reevaluated as one moves through a kempo (or other) career and develops the 'bond between master and student' (as Kimpatsu puts it).

Kesshu
Ian

George Hyde
1st October 2002, 15:13
Hi All,

This is one of those discussions, which thanks to the diversity of personal approaches, provides an element of validity to all the contributions. Tony is getting a lot of flack for his absolute and rather extreme position and not doing himself any favours by making the assumption that everyone should both know where he's coming from, and be coming from the same place.

If I may be so bold, where Tony is "coming from" is his understanding of the traditional relationship between teacher and student in true budo practice, upon which (if I may be even bolder) I will share my thoughts here.

The desire to know absolutely who we are and the place we occupy in reality is a fundamental construct of our character. Most of us are quite happy with our current perception and this "absolute knowledge" manifests itself in our intuitions - the more safe and secure that knowledge, the more entrenched are our intuitions. However, to truly seek 'michi' is to acknowledge the possibility of an alternative and to experience that alternative we must let go of those intuitions. Zen disciplines are a means by which a skilled teacher guides a student towards the realisation of this alternative by gradually relinquishing those intuitions.

In order for the teacher to be empowered to do this, the student's willing and unconditional assumption of absolute authority on the part of the instructor is a prerequisite. By this I mean absolute authority over the subject, not automatically over the student - that authority comes by way of default for all matters relating to that subject. In order for the teacher to remove the veil of delusion from the eyes of the student and thereby reveal the true nature of reality, the student must place absolute trust in the teacher's ability to do so. This is the 'shu' of 'shu, ha, ri' - it is not simply to copy, but to accept, hold and protect as the absolute truth - despite what our past experience, assumptions of our own abilities and/or our intuition tells us. This acceptance is not only acknowledgement of the fact that the teacher knows, but also that the teacher knows what's best for the student.

Much of what we learn is a process of "unlearning" what we already intuitively know to be true. In order to overcome our intuitions we need guidance, and that guidance must be consistent. In the hands of a skilled teacher the student will experience a number of methods employed by the teacher designed to guide him towards understanding. These will often be very subtle and involve a degree of deception and trickery - the teacher may praise and applaud the student's confident errors or challenge and decry his successes - thereby exploiting each step, whether positive or negative as a learning experience to the benefit of the student. The teacher will deploy these methods according to the progress of the student as and when he alone deems appropriate. Such an approach relies entirely on the relationship between teacher and student and demands the absolute trust of the student, which he demonstrates by exclusive devotion to the guidance of the one teacher.

To seek additional guidance from another teacher would be to break this contract of trust - by default, it would be read as the student saying "I know what's best for me" or at the very least, "I'm not sure you know what's best for me" - and this (I believe) is the 'betrayal' that Tony refers to.

OK - that's how it's supposed to work - that's what budo IS. Many of us forget, or are not aware of the fact that budo, in it's original incarnation, had nothing whatsoever to do with self defence. Relying almost entirely on kata, budo was merely a vehicle on the path towards a more complete understanding of self. In this context, students of budo would first and foremost seek out the right teacher with no thoughts of what technical skill they may attain and to what practical uses they may apply it.

It is correct to observe that noted past masters encouraged their students to seek instruction elsewhere, but it should be understood that this would be prescribed by the teacher - just as they may prescribe kata, or kihon as the required mode of practice for their student's continued progress.

Today however, with a much greater emphasis on technical content - what skills and abilities we might acquire from practice rather than what faults and delusions we might shed - the motivation for seeking out a teacher is very different and consequently, the relationship that transpires is also different.

These days, true seekers of 'michi' are few and far between and true masters are even fewer. As such, there is a great deal more room for those of us who teach - yet make no claim to mastery - to allow our students to stoke the fires of their enthusiasm elsewhere.

Those of us lucky enough to be blessed with this perspective and the teacher to go with it will tend not to seek instruction elsewhere.

For the record - I don't encourage my students to seek instruction anywhere other than with my teacher, Mizuno Sensei and I choose not to entertain 'martial arts tourists' - but for entirely practical reasons.


Later,

tony leith
1st October 2002, 16:35
I respect all contributors to this forum as being sincere and well motivated in their practice of Shorinji Kempo. As I've made clear, I personally have no interest in practicing another martial art precisely because of my commitment to its philosophical content, and even a minimally attentive reading of my comments should have made this clear. I merely have reservations about prescribing for other people what they should do, especially in the highly tendentious and frankly offensive terms which Kimpatsu has employed.

Tony, I had the great good fortune to be a student of Mizuno Sensei's for a year. I moved to London specifically for that purpose, and I do not regret that choice. I consider myself still to be his student. I have the respect of people I know and that know me for the sincerity of my commitment to Kempo ( I would not presume to say that I have Sensei's respect, but rest assured he has mine). I would sooner give up my life than 'piss away' the value of his teachings.

It may not have been your intention, but your comments come across as negative and even hurtful, and from my point of view self righteous and fundementalist. I don't want to provoke a slanging match in this forum, however I couldn't allow your comments to pass unchallenged. Hopefully future exchanges will be characterised by more civility.

Tony Leith

Sammy Briggs
1st October 2002, 18:51
Hi y'all,

Very interesting topic. I'm not sure how much I can add by throwing another post onto the pile, but here's my perspective:

Some time ago, I began training in Aikido and Shinkendo with Obata Kaiso, a very well known and highly regarded instructor here in Los Angeles. After training for a number of years with Obata Kaiso, I felt an urge to broaden my understanding of budo. I didn't feel that Aikido was lacking anything, however, I felt it would be beneficial to take in the theories and philosophies as presented by another art. Due to the nature of Aikido, I felt Shorinji Kempo would be the perfect compliment (as opposed to the more direct styles of boxing, karate, etc). After watching a demonstration in Long Beach, I was reassured that what I was looking for was to be found in Shorinji Kempo. However, I felt that there would be no benefit in simply giving up Aikido for another art. Although I had learned alot from Obata Kaiso, I still had a long ways to go. I didn't want to just throw out what I had trained so hard to achieve. It would also have been very disrespectful to Obata Kaiso, had I begun training in Shorinji Kempo behind his back. This would have also gotten me "fired" from the dojo.

So in the end, the easy answer was to simply ask Obata Kaiso for his permission to train in Shorinji Kempo. If he didn't approve of the idea, I would have respected his decision. Fortunately, Obata Kaiso is fond of Shorinji Kempo and allowed me to train in the art.

Unfortunately, this was only half of the battle. I had already watched classes at the Shorinji Kempo Hollywood Branch Dojo (lead by Kuramoto Sensei) several times. After watching Kuramoto Sensei's class for about the first 30 seconds, I knew I wanted to train at his dojo. I told Kuramoto Sensei of my current statues at the Aikido Dojo prior to joining, and he still accepted me as a student. I continue to train in both arts and have not had any problems with either teacher. Had I gone behind Obata's or Kuramoto's back, I might have told a different story.

Tony: Do you consider me to have betrayed either of my teachers by training in the two arts, despite having received permission to do so? I can assure you that I take my Shorinji Kempo training every bit as seriously as my Aikido training. And...I don't mean to become involved in other people's feuds (whoops, too late), but it seems somewhat disrespectful to dis someone whom you refer to as Sensei on a public forum.

I don't believe that cross training is for everyone (especially those with just a few months or years experience with a given art), but under the right circumstance, it can be very beneficial. Don't think I'm comparing myself to any of the following, but here's a few contemporary examples: Takeda Sokaku, Mas Oyama, Nakamura Taisaburo, Yoshio Sugino, Shiro Saigo, Minoru Mochizuki. It also seems to be overlooked that Doshin So received instruction from more than a few teachers.

BTW...it is nice to have an outsiders point of view, but, is Jimi Demi a Shorinji student?


Sorry for the long, long post,
Sammy Briggs

Steve Williams
1st October 2002, 19:14
Good thoughts Sammy......

BTW does it really matter that Jimi Demi is a kenshi.... as long as he brings something constructive to the arguement then I don't mind if he is or not..... But for curiosities sake Jimi... are you??

Steve Williams
1st October 2002, 19:18
Just thinking about the "blind obedience" angle....


If we question our sensei and still follow him then we are loyal.....

If we blindly follow his will then we are approaching a cult mentality....




So Tony always question...... it will not be seen as being disloyal....



"Give me leaders..... not followers"... Doshin So.

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 02:47
Would you betray your wife in the same way as your branch master?
If yes, why? Or, more to the point, if not, why not? A marriage is a bond of trust between two people, who form a symbiotic relationship. There can be a lot of hurt on one side if the other starts seeing someone else "on the side".
Now: Is that a description of a relationship to your wife... or your sensei?

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 03:04
Originally posted by Steve Williams
Just thinking about the "blind obedience" angle....If we question our sensei and still follow him then we are loyal.....
If we blindly follow his will then we are approaching a cult mentality....
So Tony always question...... it will not be seen as being disloyal....
"Give me leaders..... not followers"... Doshin So.
I am questioning, Steve; I'm questioning everyone's blithe assumption that they can flit between arts as and when it suits them. Shorinji Kempo is not a coffee table book, it's a long-term commitment like marriage. As such, bed-hopping is not the best way to either inspire trust in your partner, or reap the rewards of long-term devotion. (And lest I be accused of being completely uxorious, yes, I too sometimes argue with my other half. ;) )
Doubtless Tony Leith will misinterpret my strongly argued beliefs as uncivil, but there we go. (Hi, Tony! :wave: )
And George: Yes, I expect everyone to agree that I'm right, the same way that if I say murder or child abuse is wrong, I expect everyone to agree that I'm right. (Boy, am I gonna catch some flack for that one!)
I remain, in haughty conviction of my own righteousness, :D

Jeremy Williams
2nd October 2002, 04:09
Hello Kimpatsu. You wrote:

Would you betray your wife in the same way as your branch master?
If yes, why? Or, more to the point, if not, why not? A marriage is a bond of trust between two people, who form a symbiotic relationship. There can be a lot of hurt on one side if the other starts seeing someone else "on the side".

Yes, well here we have a very interesting analogy, indeed. But to "betray" somebody, surely there has to be some explicit bond to be broken. In the case of marriage, the marriage vows, for instance. So, to go back to the question I asked you earlier, albeit rephrased: Does Mizuno Sensei exact a written or verbal promise from prospective students that they will not seek instruction elsewhere, either in SK or in any other martial art? and (as a little extra one here), if so, was such a promise exacted of you?

Jeremy Williams

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 07:35
Originally posted by Jeremy Williams
Yes, well here we have a very interesting analogy, indeed. But to "betray" somebody, surely there has to be some explicit bond to be broken. In the case of marriage, the marriage vows, for instance.
Have you forgotten the Dokun?
"We pledge never to betray our masters..." (Or, in Japanese, "Shi wo azamukazu...")

Originally posted by Jeremy Williams
Does Mizuno Sensei exact a written or verbal promise from prospective students that they will not seek instruction elsewhere, either in SK or in any other martial art?
I'm hoping George or Steve, being closer to Mizuno Sensei geographically will ask him that question, and supply a definitive answer in the days to come.
As to whether such a promise was extracted from me, see above. I also remember a howa in which Mizuno Sensei stated that cross-training was a bad idea.
Kesshu.

hwijaya
2nd October 2002, 08:00
This is a very interesting subject. When I studied Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia in 1986-1989, there was an unwritten law that we were not allowed to study another MA. Most of our sensei didn't like the cross-training idea.

Regards,
Johannes H. Wijaya

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 08:34
Thank you, Johannes.
Kesshu.

Robert Liljeblad
2nd October 2002, 08:38
Gassho,

I can agree with Tony. This quote came to mind:

“ If you know that your master is a true master, then give up your own ideas and learn”

I think that if you have a real Sensei there is no need to cross train. And a lot of people tend to spend there time looking to find the right system instead of giving it some years spending the time training in one. Since my knowledge about SK is so limited I can’t see why I should spend my time with other arts when I have so much to learn in SK.

On the other hand not always having an experienced Sensei around to ask and find guidance of. There might not be a bad thing to cross train. I could also see an advantage of knowing about the other Budo arts out there. But I do not think its beneficial to mix it all without having a main art.:o

For a couple of years I was part of a sparing group that meet regularly with karate, jujutsu people. That was a good experience for me sparing with other people than SK students. But at that time I had at least five years of experience of SK at that time.

Br,

Robert

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 08:45
Originally posted by Robert Persson
For a couple of years I was part of a sparing group that meet regularly with karate, jujutsu people
I'm not saying that you should isolate yourself completely from other arts, Robert, but there is a world of difference with meeting a few friends for some informal cross-training and apprencticing yourself to a new master.
Kesshu.

Jeremy Williams
2nd October 2002, 12:45
Hello Kimpatsu. Thank you for your reply.

Have I forgotten my Dokun? No. Have you? The phrase, "shi wo azamukazu" is to be found in the Seigan, not the Dokun. The translation given in the English version of the Fukudokuhon is, I think, a nice rendering into our native tongue: "To be honest with our teachers". To my mind, being honest with somebody and betraying them are two quite different things. Nowhere in anything we are required to pledge on formally becoming a kenshi are the words, "I promise never to go another SK teacher or teacher of another martial art", or words evenly vaguely to that effect, to be found. If we fail to keep the pledges we have made, such as only using SK for the common good, respecting our ancestors, peers and juniors, loving our country, and so forth, then we are indeed "betraying" our teacher. But that is as far as it goes. No promise, no betrayal.

You say that you seem to remember a Howa where Mizuno Sensei stated that he felt it was a "bad idea" to cross-train. Fine. But again, saying something is a "bad idea" and saying "You must not!" are rather different, don't you think? The former would seem to imply a non-imperative statement of opinion, while the latter is a fairly clear, "That's a no-no, chum. Forbidden! You will be punished by excommunication and death should you even entertain the idea in an involuntary spasm of weakness brought on by the accidental consumption of mind-bending drugs". Or something to that effect...

Finally, and most worryingly, in response to my question as to whether Mizuno Sensei exacts a promise from his students not to cross-train or train with another teacher in Sk, you say:

I'm hoping George or Steve, being closer to Mizuno Sensei geographically will ask him that question, and supply a definitive answer in the days to come.
As to whether such a promise was extracted from me, see above.

It is difficult to see this in any other light other than as a not so neat attempt at side-stepping the question. I find it extraordinary that you would not know this for yourself, having studied with the man in the UK, and having made so much of the bond you believe exists between "master" and "apprentice". I have "seen above" and, as the Seigan stands, no such promise was made. Perhaps we will have to disagree on this point. However, perhaps you could give us a clear yes or no on whether a written or verbal promise, apart from anything promised in the Seigan, was exacted of you by Mizuno Sensei with regard to cross-training?

Thank you.

Kesshu.

Jeremy Williams

George Hyde
2nd October 2002, 12:46
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
And George: Yes, I expect everyone to agree that I'm right, the same way that if I say murder or child abuse is wrong, I expect everyone to agree that I'm right.

Tony - your analogy is flawed - if we (including you) were all participating in murder and child abuse and your comments were critical of the manner in which we conducted ourselves in doing so, insisting that we should all conduct ourselves as you do, it may have some weight. As it stands it's simply obtuse and inflammatory and, in keeping with you other contributions, does nothing to advance your case.

In order to betray, there must first be some kind of contract (spoken or otherwise) to be broken. In the case of the traditional relationship between a seeker of michi and his master, then this contract is implicit. But since both genuine seekers of michi and masters are an extreme rarity these days, so are the contracts and therefore the opportunities for betrayal.

If you think that everyone else is missing something because they don't approach things in the way you do then why not try educating instead of dictating?

Later,

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2002, 13:47
Jeremy, outside of Japan, the entire kyoten is called the "Dokun". Apologies for the misunderstanding. I suspect the translation you gave is from the American version; the British version reads, "We pledge to honour our founder and not to betray our masters, to respect our elders and not slight the young". Hence, betrayal is acknowledged as a concept right from the start.
George, I realise that if I turn left, you'll turn right, and if I say fire engines are red, you'll argue that they're green, but there is a contract there to be broken. The contract between you and your sensei. Your sensei is your master. You are the apprentice. Very simple concept, really. It's the Wondermash society of the modern age--just add hot water for instant results--that's diluted the notion. People want results immediately, and aren't prepared for the arduousness of years of training. For a fuller explanation, consult Gerry Rixen Sensei. He's given great howa on the subject of Shorinji Kempo as an apprenticeship.
I stand by my earlier statement. Murder is wrong. Betrayal is wrong. To betray your master to another sensei is wrong. That's all I have to say on the subject. Can there really be any more? I notice that those in favour of cross-training view it in terms of "learning techniques we don't study" or "finding out how other people think". Not one word of how your attitude affects your branch master, or your fellow kenshi. Now, why is that, I wonder..?

Ian Sparrow
2nd October 2002, 14:21
Gassho,

Just wondering where 'betrayal' begins. Does training at another Shorinji Kempo dojo constitute disloyalty to your sensei, what about applying branch transfers if you move?
Or, if you move to a part of the country where there is no Shorinji Kempo should you give up?

There is another thread somewhere on e-budo regarding this but I can't find it at the mo.

Kesshu
Ian

PS Can I ask what 'michi' is/means? Thanks

tony leith
2nd October 2002, 14:37
For the record Kimpatsu, I have no problem with strongly argued opinions which are not ad hominen attacks appearing to disregard what other participants in the debate are actually saying, but never mind.

I found George Hyde's contribution to the debate interesting as something I could actually engage with intellectually. One thing I think has to be taken into account is that the student/Sensei relationship in Japan is embedded in a cultural/historical context. I think there are problems with transplanting these things into a radically different cultural context without making some allowances (NB here I am not necessarily just talking about the cross training issue). Some of us of course don't have the good fortune to have that kind of immediacy of contact with an instructor (or person) of Mizuno Sensei's calibre. Speaking personally, I would be acutely uncomfortable with expecting students at the Glasgow dojo being expected to relate to their instructors (including me) in those terms.

I think there are always dangers in any form of self abnegation. Any human relationship encompassing that kind of dichotomy between master and disciple always contains the potentiality for abuse (see elsewhere on the Ebudo site for details). In SK we are probably fortunate in that there are more institutional safeguards against this kind of behaviour than in a lot of styles, but still..

Tony Leith

George Hyde
2nd October 2002, 15:23
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
George, I realise that if I turn left, you'll turn right, and if I say fire engines are red, you'll argue that they're green,

Tony: If you want to surrender your right, or declare your inability, to offer a reasonable argument then do so plainly - don't fool yourself into thinking that I'm either too closed minded or ignorant to understand. If I'm in such desperate need of education then please, educate me. Until you attempt to do so I will have no option to conclude that you're simply not up to the task.

Furthermore, rest assured that if I chose to turn right or argue the "greenness" of red fire engines I'd do so with cogent argument characterised by thoughtful deliberation, and not simply state absolutes and counter any and all contrary responses to same with further absolutes devoid of consideration and/or explanation.

It's clear that you feel passionately for the relationship you have with your sensei, but if the end result of that devotion and commitment is nothing more than a blind refusal to understand the validity of the relationships that other people may have with their sensei, then you do your own sensei a disservice.

If you weren't so intent on being a gadfly you might actually realise that much of my contributions actually support your position - a position upon which you still steadfastly refuse to give your personal perspective.



The contract between you and your sensei. Your sensei is your master. You are the apprentice. Very simple concept, really.

Despite knowing my "master" you know nothing of the relationship I have with him, what he expects of me personally and how I choose to honour it. And if it's so "simple"...???



For a fuller explanation, consult Gerry Rixen Sensei. He's given great howa on the subject of Shorinji Kempo as an apprenticeship.

Which makes it even more of a pity that you clearly learned nothing from his example.



I stand by my earlier statement. Murder is wrong. Betrayal is wrong. To betray your master to another sensei is wrong. That's all I have to say on the subject. Can there really be any more?

Yes!! But are you up to the task of saying it?



I notice that those in favour of cross-training view it in terms of "learning techniques we don't study" or "finding out how other people think". Not one word of how your attitude affects your branch master, or your fellow kenshi. Now, why is that, I wonder..?

So, why not tell us????

Later,

shugyosha
2nd October 2002, 15:41
seems to be a passionated debat here :)

each person according to his/her experience have his/her oppinion on
cross training, some feel happy, some unconfortable with it.

tony, kimpatsu, raised the question of betrayal, and the idea of
serving a master.
for, of course as long as we are not master ourself, we need master to
walk on the way.
but what is a master then? i seen many dojo in differents MA, but few masters, many teachers.

Shorinji kenpo seem to develop more dedicated peaple than other MA
and also more friendly.
this is not only due to the philosophy of Shorinji kenpo but maybe because teachers there bring more than just technic to the student.
and therefore maybe there are not just teachers.
I think a master is the door to the way for a student, it brings you more than just kick and punches, but the essence, the spirit, and the confidence you need to walk on the path.

So arguing about technics of this or that art is endless, and is not related with the trust a master may put on you.

so this is not because you train with diferent "teachers" that you betray your "master" if you are lucky enough to have one.
for it is deficult enough to find one, and more to find two.

but what i would do if i find two masters in diferent MA? this would be a problem wich i wouldnt consider if i would have found two masters in the same MA. but these two person are human follower of the way after all? i think would put them both in relation or at leat
i would show what i did learn with the other to the first.
because serving a master is not just following him/her but bringing back the essence he/her gave it to you.


now am i a kenshi? if you mean that is i am register in a branch or training in a dojo, then im not.....

not yet ;)

George Hyde
2nd October 2002, 17:39
Originally posted by Ian Sparrow

PS Can I ask what 'michi' is/means? Thanks

Hi Ian,

'Michi' is the same character as 'do' (the way) as in budo - to seek michi is to embark on a path of spiritual discovery/development.

The method employed in doing so can vary greatly - studying the tea ceremony (chado), archery (kyudo) and calligraphy (shodo) to name but a few other options.

HTH

Originally posted by Tony Leith

One thing I think has to be taken into account is that the student/Sensei relationship in Japan is embedded in a cultural/historical context. I think there are problems with transplanting these things into a radically different cultural context without making some allowances (NB here I am not necessarily just talking about the cross training issue) <snip>
Speaking personally, I would be acutely uncomfortable with expecting students at the Glasgow dojo being expected to relate to their instructors (including me) in those terms.

Hi Tony (L),

Fair point - I would shrink away in cowardly fashion from the responsibility of assuming the position of "master" over my students. As I have attempted to explain above, such a relationship is implicit (and absolutely necessary) in the truest examples of a zen master and student, but this presupposes that the master is a master in the fullest sense of the word.

I sometimes think that highlighting "cultural differences" and seeking to accommodate/assimilate them can muddy the waters. The concept of do/michi (or at least its origin) is in itself culturally specific - it comes wrapped in different clothes. Therefor anyone seeking to understand it would IMHO do well to dress accordingly.

Later,

Sammy Briggs
2nd October 2002, 20:39
Just an observation on the quote from the British version of the Dokun as posted by Tony:

"We pledge to honour our founder and not to betray our masters, to respect our elders and not slight the young".

Anyone else notice that "masters" is plural; as in "more than one master".


Sammy Briggs

Gary Dolce
2nd October 2002, 21:40
Gassho,

Just out of curiosity, I looked back at the entire history of the Shorinji Kempo section of E-Budo since the crash and discovered that this topic has elicited by far the greatest number of replies ever - more than previous discussions on controversial subjects such as randori, the manji, and adapting SK to western culture. I am surprised - I know there are different views on cross-training but would have never expected such passionate disagreement on the subject. Is this really the issue people care about the most?

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 00:00
Interesting that George Hyde assumes all fire engines are red; in Hawaii, they're yellow...
"Masters" is plural in the Dokun because there is more than one branch master. It's still the same Shorinji Kempo, however.
Most replies ever? I'll see if I can piss everyone off enough to top it with another issue... ;)

Tripitaka of AA
3rd October 2002, 02:32
... and that seems to be the end of this little exchange of views (there haven't been any posts for 2 whole hours by my reckoning;) ).

I'm pleased to have seen so many carefully constructed posts. Kenshi really do think about their art, don't they!

A couple of tiny little questions are still bothering me. I haven't been training for a long time and I've missed out on a lot of developments within the British Shorinji Kempo Federation community. I really didn't know who George Hyde was until I saw the video produced by the BSKF a couple of years ago, but I know Kimpatsu and Steve Williams (they claim to remember me but that's probably them just being nice to an old ex-kenshi). My questions may therefore appear impertinent or rude but I do not intend this...

George Hyde Sensei, why do you start posts with "This is what I wrote on the Aikido Forum..."? Do you Cross-Train? Or is it just cross-reading? Does your knowledge of Budo come from Shorinji Kempo alone, or have you studied some related subject in an academic setting perhaps?

Kimpatsu Tony, who do you call Master? As I read it, you've been in Japan for a few years, at different locations. Is Shorinji Kempo your Master? Or should it be your first Sensei, back in England? As a highly ranked "student", when will you feel ready to be called a Master? I suspect that some of your views might change when you make this leap from Disciple to Master.

Steve Williams; Are you the guy on the 1985 trip to the World Taikai who saw the "telephone box Tenchi-Ken Dai-Ichi" performed by the Busen student Matoba. Did you go on to re-create the Wushu "Whip-Chain" display for the assembled ranks of a BSKF Summer Camp using an old belt? Or are you the Steve who was captain of the Crawley Branch under Graham Nabbs Sensei?

Jimi Demi; Nope, no question. I just thought I'd mention your name again, it seems to be a fashionable thing to do :D

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 02:50
David, I really do remember you. You wear glasses, and used to have that wraparound plastic visor that was made to your prescription when you trained. You "Ran the World" once, and wore the T-shirt to the London Judo Society in Stockwell to prove it. You introduced your wife to me while we were in the immigration queue at Calais. She came to a training seminar in Paris, and we crossed by hovercraft from Dover.
Now, to answer your questions: My masters are all the branch masters within Shorinji Kempo. My current branch master is the branch where I'm currently registered (Kokubunji Doin), but I still think of Mizuno Sensei as my sensei. And I'll never be called "master", because I'm never going to be a branch master (unless I move to the USA or something...)
Kesshu.

Gary Dolce
3rd October 2002, 02:59
Wow, the mention of Matoba-san brings back some memories. I met him at the '85 Taikai and then he visited me a year or two later. Quite a character! So Steve, where you there in '85 too?

And Tony - why not unless you move to the USA? Not that we wouldn't welcome you .....:D

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 03:01
Dolce Sensei,There's always Canada (too cold), New Zealand (too boring), or Australia (too many Australians) as well, I suppose... :D

Jeremy Williams
3rd October 2002, 03:04
Gassho

Thank you for your reply, Kimpatsu. I hadn't realised there were two English language versions of the Fukudokuhon. Some pretty slick marketing by the translation company there by the sounds of it. However, I still stand by what I said in my previous message as regards the interpretation of the phrase in question. Like you, Kimpatsu, I am a Japanese scholar, and personally I feel that the verb 'azamuku' carries more the flavour of deceit or trickery, rather than betrayal as such: teki wo azamuku, to trick the enemy, and so forth. In that case, the implication would be that one should be honest with one's teacher, hence my approval of the American translation here. Under such an interpretation, as long as one was honest with one's teacher regarding one's intentions, and assuming that approval was given, then cross-training would not, I believe, constitute a betrayal.

The other point I would like to make here is that I would be surprised if a teacher did not allow you to cross-train, simply because SK is fundamentally about Buddhism (Oops! I feel another thread coming on!), one of the most important tenets of which is that of tolerance. Another important tenet would be that one must ascertain the truth of the way for oneself. There is no dogmatism involved. I have always come back to SK as my central system of choice precisely because it was that: my system of choice-a choice I have always been encouraged to make for myself through empirical experience. I have been shown the way and then encouraged to choose, but only after ascertaining the merit of that way for myself. Never have I been merely ordered to do so just because X Sensei wanted it so. This Buddhist approach to MA within SK, one based on tolerance and the explicit directive in Buddhism to confirm for oneself, is what has ultimately made Sk so compelling for me. As a footnote, I would also add that incorporating techniques from other sources has also been allowed when proved effective.

Anyway, as a Buddhist I must acquiesce to your desire to say no more on this topic. See you in another thread!

Kesshu

Jeremy Williams

Gary Dolce
3rd October 2002, 03:06
But what could be worse than too many Americans?

Tripitaka of AA
3rd October 2002, 03:12
Watch out Tony, there will be a poll soon; places we should send Tony to be a Branch Master! I hear that Rekyavik is nice for a couple of days a year (which might actually be a good thing for getting people into a nice warm Gym - perhaps that explains the popularity in Sweden).


Your memory of me is entirely accurate. You missed the word "stupid" from your description of my so-called protective eye-wear. My only visible reminder of a Kempo career is the 5mm scar on my right cheek-bone caused by... the sharp edge of my protective eye-wear digging in when I took a perfectly snapped and controlled kick during Randori. If I hadn't been wearing them, I wouldn't have got a scratch :D

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 03:41
David, I think the BSKF got up a collection to send me to Antarctica. They were trying for a seat on the next Apollo moon mission, but the programme got cancelled before they could book me a place...
Jeremy: The dokun has never been outsourced. The translations have always been done by native English speakers visiting Hombu. The difference arose because, initially, all English-speaking branches used the British version, but some Americans complained that such phrases as, "Rely on yourself and not on others, no one is as reliable as your own well-disciplined self" implied talk about other people, and not the individual reciting the creed. Mizuno Sensei and I spoke at length on this subject, as he wanted to solicit my opinion. I see that the Americans ignored my suggestion of replacing "you" with "one" (viz: "Rely on oneself and not on others...") Interestingly, at the 1997 taikai, when the Americans led chinkon, the BSKF instructor Jee Sensei was asked if Britain was interested in adopting the new American version, to which he replied emphatically, "No way!" Personally, I don't like the way it's been turned into a rhetorical question: "On whom can I rely if not myself?"
Faced with that, I always want to cry out, "Try cocaine!"
To address your main point, I still consider cross-training a betrayal because you're saying that your sensei doesn't have enough to satisfy you. If you feel, for example, that Shorinji Kempo is flawed because of the lack of Judo or BJJ-style groundwork, then lobby to have newaza included in the syllabus; don't run away elsewhere.
As to the definition of azamuku, I just checked the Kojien. Definition (2) reads: "To make a fool of someone... To have no respect for one's teachers." (Abridged.)
BTW, it's not that I'm unwilling to say more on this topic, but I think anything I say now is likely to be a rehash of what I've already said, and that's made me too many new enemies as it is.
Dolce Sensei: Worse than too many Americans? How about cloning moi? Now there's a concept too horrible to contemplate!
Kesshu.

Anders Pettersson
3rd October 2002, 11:32
Gassho.
Just to clarify some things for those that don't know this.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Jeremy, outside of Japan, the entire kyoten is called the "Dokun". Apologies for the misunderstanding.
No Tony that is a misunderstanding from your point.
We do not have a translation of the Dokun (as of yet, work are in progress). But in the English Fukudoku-hon it is written on page 10:
"By reciting the meditation (seiku), oath (seigan), and principles (shinjo), collectively termed teachings (kyoten),..."
So what we read, even in the West, is called Kyoten (which Dokun is a part of).

Note also that there is only one version of the English Fukudoku-hon, but there is several different translations of the kyoten in English used in different countries.

If anybody wants to discuss this in more detail I recommend that you start a new thread.

/Anders

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 11:41
Anders Sensei,
In Britain, at least up until the point I was last there, everyone referred to Seiku, Seigan, and Shinjo collectively as the "Dokun".
As for a translation of both Raihaishi and Dokun, I can supply one now, if you like.
Kesshu.

David Dunn
3rd October 2002, 13:34
I'm just going to throw this into the melee, as no one seems to have answered the question:

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Originally posted by Jeremy Williams
Does Mizuno Sensei exact a written or verbal promise from prospective students that they will not seek instruction elsewhere, either in SK or in any other martial art?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Kimpatsu.
I'm hoping George or Steve, being closer to Mizuno Sensei geographically will ask him that question, and supply a definitive answer in the days to come.
As to whether such a promise was extracted from me, see above. I also remember a howa in which Mizuno Sensei stated that cross-training was a bad idea.
Kesshu.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sensei does not allow people to join one of his dojos simultaneously with another martial arts organisation. I once had to tell a member of Euston dojo this and sensei's reason: "I don't teach part-time, so you can't learn part-time".

That is not the full story of course :p

David Dunn
Presently itinerant.

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2002, 13:49
Originally posted by David Dunn
Sensei does not allow people to join one of his dojos simultaneously with another martial arts organisation. I once had to tell a member of Euston dojo this and sensei's reason: "I don't teach part-time, so you can't learn part-time".
Thank you, David.
BTW, where are you, and what are you doing now?

David Dunn
3rd October 2002, 13:55
Tony,
I've recently moved to Bristol, and I am presently training with the good people of the university dojo. Imperial College dojo is in good hands.

Martin Allerby
3rd October 2002, 15:42
Hello,

I think that this thread has lost it’s focus a bit in the last posts. However, I would like to make a remark for all persons browsing this forum thinking of becoming a Shorinji kenshi or is interested to learn more about other arts then the one you are practicing, but now are hesitating... As the previous posts clearly indicates, a number of different views exists regarding this issue within SK… I would just like to clarify that there are a number of SK branches around the globe that will welcome you even though you choose to have a different main art or that that welcomes you to practice SK without demanding you to give up all your previous knowledge/MA experience.

How can we attract new Shorinji kenshis (with other MA experience) if we don’t allow them to experience what SK is? Is it really necessary to force them to quit their other MA before they takes on SK? Not knowing what SK is/stands for would you really give it a go? I would for sure think twice before I gave up everything I done so far! I think we should welcome everyone that are willing to give SK a go. If they like it they will grow – if they don’t like it they are likely to quit. No harm done! At least they gave it a chance!

The question asked if Jimi Demi is a Shorinji Kenshi makes me wonder… What difference does it make? This question doesn’t make any sense! SK isn’t and should never be a closed art. Actually I would very much like to encourage people from other arts making comments and asking questions also in the SK part of E-budo. I don’t think you need to be a Shorinji kenshi to make good contribution to the issues posted here.


Regards,

David Dunn
3rd October 2002, 16:48
Martin,
I was answering a specific question of Tony (Kehoe). You will have noted my :p and hopefully inferred an element of flippancy to my comment. I will try to be more serious, and in any case for a definitive answer you would have to ask sensei himself.

The situation I refered to was a specific one, but which nonetheless makes a broad point. If someone comes to a shorinji kempo dojo, and they are presently a member of another MA organisation, then of course they are allowed to train, to test the water whatever, provided of course that they respect protocol.

If, on the other hand, a kenshi has received a substantial amount of shorinji kempo instruction from their branchmaster, and then wants to go and train in another martial art as well, they should expect to be asked to make a choice. At some point these positions have to meet.

These are distinct questions: who can start training? what is your responsibility as an established kenshi?

The original question has been lost somewhere. The question as to whether it is beneficial to train in other styles depends on what you mean by beneficial :D

Benni
3rd October 2002, 22:34
Hi all and especially Tony,

I read this thread with different emotions. I´m happy that this topic interest so many people but at the same time I'm very astonished over some of the answers here.

I'm sorry if I'm boring someone now but I can't let go of this...

Of course you shouldn't betray your teacher. I and no one else here have said so. But the thing is you don´t betray him or her by cross training. How could you, as long you have his/hers teaching in mind?

Someone wrote something about if you have a "real Sensei" you don't need to cross train. What is a "real Sensei"? Sensei means teacher, right? Not master. So, whats a real teacher? And how is it possible to betray a teacher by having another one at the same time? I would rather say that if you have real teacher then he or she wouldn't be afraid if his or hers students were taking lessons from another teacher.

A branch master much promise that he or she won't instruct in any other MA, but it is alright for him to take part in the sessions. Doesn't this and the earlier answers about Hombu say it all?

And finally, how can we develop people with strong and free minds if we want to control them??

Best wishes
/Benni Jönsson, Sweden

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 00:02
Originally posted by David Dunn
I've recently moved to Bristol, and I am presently training with the good people of the university dojo. Imperial College dojo is in good hands.
Bristol! Shorinji Kempo spreads again! Yippee!
Martin: A word of caution. If Mizuno Sensei won't allow cross-training, to automatically assume outsiders will be welcome is a bit of a reach. Better perhaps to telephone first and confirm.
As to Jimi Demi, I think the question arose because he asked something any kenshi should know, and it raised the possibility that he'd been asleep during howa. There was never any suggestion that he wasn't welcome to participate in the thread.
Kesshu.

colin linz
4th October 2002, 02:07
I, like many don’t have a strong opinion regarding this issue, I can see points for both sides. I guess it comes down to my personal view of the world in which we live, there is nothing that is completely right or wrong, black or white. Our world, like the universe is in a constant state of change, and thereby changing our thoughts or challenging our values over time.

During this discussion a couple of questions came to mind. Was Kaiso wrong to study Haku Rhu Jujutsu (about 1939 I think), has he done a disservice to his Chinese master? has he betrayed his master in Haku Ryu with the development of Shorinji Kempo?

One other observation, my old branch master (who is Japanese) was training under a Karate master and bringing some of the waza into our training. Was he doing a disservice to the branch members, or could this be part of the Shu, Ha, Ri process.

Cheers
Colin Linz

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 02:56
Kaiso was a genius, Colin. I don't know any geniuses posting to this forum. And if Mizuno Sensei says cross-training is not allowed, surely that settles the matter.
Kesshu.

Martin Allerby
4th October 2002, 07:20
Tony,

If a teacher doesn’t allow cross training I would respect that. I have always the choice to either follow him/her or go somewhere else. However saying that, that is the same thing as cross training isn’t allowed within SK is a total different thing!! I find this very strange since I can’t get things to add up… I will try to give you a few examples (even though I’m not very found of giving or getting statements that are not possible to confirm…):

1. In our branch and in many branches in Sweden cross training isn’t a bad thing. We have very good experiences with this. Tony: Are we wrong? Are we not teaching SK in our branch? Are we not teaching SK in Sweden?

2. A fellow Shorinji Kenshi got his nidan for Aosaka sensei in Paris. Before he left France he mentioned that he was interested to study Judo in order to learn some of their nage waza. The reply he got was that Aosaka thought it might be a bit early! He didn’t say it was wrong! Tony: Is Aosaka sensei wrong? Isn’t he teaching SK?

3. One of the senior Hombu (Busen) students have clearly stated that Hombu supports student that are interested in cross training. They are not saying that it is wrong! Tony: Is Hombu wrong? Isn’t SK thought at Hombu?

4. Kaiso himself cross trained? Tony: Was he wrong? Did he betray his Chinese master?


Tony: Don’t forget that SK is our art! We are SK! SK is an organisation not a closed or hidden secret sect!!

Our main goal is to develop ourselves and others as good and strong humans. Kaiso wanted to develop human beings! He didn’t want to create followers!!


Regards,

Martin

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 07:43
Taking your questions in order:

Originally posted by Martin Allerby
1. In our branch and in many branches in Sweden cross training isn’t a bad thing. We have very good experiences with this. Tony: Are we wrong? Are we not teaching SK in our branch? Are we not teaching SK in Sweden?
Given the problems you yourself described in Sweden, including your own branch master quitting to learn kickboxing, I'd say that you are in a better position than I am to answer this question.

Originally posted by Martin Allerby
2. A fellow Shorinji Kenshi got his nidan for Aosaka sensei in Paris. Before he left France he mentioned that he was interested to study Judo in order to learn some of their nage waza. The reply he got was that Aosaka thought it might be a bit early! He didn’t say it was wrong! Tony: Is Aosaka sensei wrong? Isn’t he teaching SK?
Not having been there, this is only hearsay, but try this for a hypothesis: What Aosaka Sensei was really saying was, wait a little longer, grow within Shorinji Kempo, and you'll realise both the futility and the unnecessity of training elsewhere.

Originally posted by Martin Allerby
3. One of the senior Hombu (Busen) students have clearly stated that Hombu supports student that are interested in cross training. They are not saying that it is wrong! Tony: Is Hombu wrong? Isn’t SK thought at Hombu?
Again, I wasn't there. Remember, however, that Mizuno Sensei is a WSKO director, and I find it rather odd that the WSKO committee would be split on this issue. Are you sure you understood the student correctly? Was it to you or to someone else that he said this? (Note: If you heard it from someone else, the reliability of the tale being precise is reduced many times.)

Originally posted by Martin Allerby
4. Kaiso himself cross trained? Tony: Was he wrong? Did he betray his Chinese master?
Kaiso was a genius. There are no geniuses posting to this thread (except me :D ). Seriously, though, do you really equate yourself with Kaiso? Or even with Mizuno Sensei? At the 1997 world taikai, Mizuno Sensei said during howa that he and we are not equals. If you think we are, "Shall we start randori?" Anyway, according to Sodoshin Monogatari, Kaiso didn't cross-train; after years with one art, he then moved to another, in a progression, consecutively, not simultaneously. (With the exception of kendo and judo, which he was taught by his grandfather as a little boy.)
Now let's turn your statement around: Martin, do you really think that you know better than Mizuno Sensei? That your judgement is greater than his?

Originally posted by Martin Allerby
Tony: Don’t forget that SK is our art! We are SK! SK is an organisation not a closed or hidden secret sect!!
Our main goal is to develop ourselves and others as good and strong humans. Kaiso wanted to develop human beings! He didn’t want to create followers!!
You claim loyalty to Shorinji Kempo above all others, and yet go and train with those others. This behaviour is self-contradictory. We are indeed an organisation, and thus, require loyalty. You can't fight for both the Swedish and German armies. Nor can you serve two masters. (Sound of broken record, but this message clearly isn't getting through.)
Kaiso wanted people who were loyal, as well as being free-thinkers. This butterflying between arts is the surest way not only to divided loyalties, but also to never mastering any art. Jack of all trades, etc...
Once again, if you don't agree with me, ask Mizuno Sensei. But you already know his answer. Are you really going to go against his teachings?
Kesshu.

Martin Allerby
4th October 2002, 10:06
Tony,

Now we all know what you think of SK in Sweden! Thank you!

I leave the Aosaka sensei interpretation without a comment. This since we can keep on arguing about what he said or what I meant. This will not lead us anywhere!

If you study the post made by Jerremy Williams (Busen student) (page 1) the following quote is made:
“On several occasions now, we have been advised not to close our eyes to what other martial arts are doing and to feel free in assimilating anything we might feel new or useful from such.”
Is he not telling the thruth? How can you learn from other arts without practicing? By reading a book?

If you study the remark mad by Steve Williams (page 2) Quote:
“I too see the benefits of cross training, but never to the exclusion of Shorinji....”
Isn’t Steve Williams also one of Mizuno Senseis student? Is he wrong?

Where do you get the idea that I’m saying that I’m equal (equate) with Kaiso or Mizuno? Open your eyes Tony you did the same error you done before (you did it with the post from Manuel Garcia (page 1) and now you are doing it with my post. Not very nice!) You are translating my words so that they fit your image…

You never answered my question: Did Kaiso betray his Chinese master by moving to Japan and creating a new art?

About serving two masters you keep repeating this issue and I still can’t see how I’m betraying my sensei (teacher) or master if I have an OK from him/her to cross-train. You can make as many similes as you want (Swedish army – German army etc) and I can come up with just as many where there are no conflict what so ever (Learning a language for instance. Will I betray my English teacher if I want to learn Japanese?). This will lead us NOwhere.

Regards,

Martin

tony leith
4th October 2002, 11:26
This could pretty clearly go on forever. Speaking personally I think an excess of dogmatism is what leads to the fissaparous tendencies in many martial arts, analagous to the 'Wee Frees' in Scotland who split from the Free Presbyterian Church which itself had split from the Church of Scotland, on doctrinal grounds which doubtless seemed very important at the time.
I agree BTW with what my own branch master, Niall Anderson, said in conversation about this thread, if you want to get better at Kempo, do more Kempo. There are however some things which Kempo probably won't help you with - ground fighting for example (all right, our patented solution is to get back on your feet ASAP, which seems fair enough to me). In the long run, training in two or more martial arts is probably problematic, basically because most individuals as Kimpatsu says are not geniuses (my god, I agree with Kimpatsu about something..)
Can't we just agree to disagree and put this thread out of our collective misery? And can we also agree not to use highly charged terms like 'betrayal' in regard to the motivations of other people that happen to disagree with you. There has to be some element of respect on a forum like this, and most people seem to avoid using strongly pjerorative terms in discussion..

Tony Leith

Manuel
4th October 2002, 12:06
I had purposed myself not to return to take part in this discussion thread, given the level of narrow-mindedness towards any contribution that we the apprentices can to make, and of disrespect (in no way insults or affronts, of course, but really disrespect) towards his fellows for the part of some veteran member of the forum. It seemed to me that this way it was not possible to arrive anywhere and that, for a one more ample explanation of my position, the effort that supposes to me to express in English was not worth, considering in addition that with an eye to a final synthesis of this debate I could contribute little to that already wrote by other participants after five or six pages. Yes, we are in a loop. Nevertheless maybe it could really seem interesting to some people knowing the opinion that on the matter of any Shorinji Kempo related subject can have any fellow (or even those non-kenshis), despite his knowledge, rank or experience. In no section of the norms that rule this forum I have seen that, to be able to give an opinion about any subject (anyone, I insist on it), it’s necessary to be in possession of a minimum rank of 6th Dan (we’ve had it then the western practitioners) or it’s necessary to be a Shibucho, or even a great Master as Mizuno Sensei or Aosaka Sensei, since it has got to be insinuated. If I have learned something in these years of practice, of course in a much more horizontal atmosphere that the one that many seem to have lived, it’s that all we can learn something from each other, and whoever settles in the arrogance and the conceit is closing himself to the true knowledge and therefore to a true growth, living in a fantasy of accumulations without sense, being stubborn about the mirage of the obtained titles and ranks. Usually I have seen in the forums an atrocious lack of respect between practitioners of different martial arts, most set themselves up as jealous guardians of the unique truth they consider belongs to their style. But this usually is not seen between comrades, practitioners of a same style, in the same extent in which it’s being seen here. Maybe the fact that all we are shouting from the rooftops that in Shorinji Kempo reside the last Budo essences has taken some people to cross the line of the sterilizing puritanism to finally become inquisitors who, when remembering constantly to the others that these don’t fulfill the pledges of their creed, unconsciously slide towards the dangerous land of "to see the mote in elseone's eye and not the beam in the one’s own".

But anyway, once said this I would like to point out a series of personal valuations on the subject to which we are up and that perhaps have been little explained previously for my part, although it’s little what they will contribute to the whole:

1) I don’t follow nor I have never followed the type of training known like "cross-training", understood this one like the regular, simultaneous and continued practice of two or more disciplines with the aim that both are in a formative level of complementariness or even of equality. Shorinji Kempo is for me a central instrument for the learning of the relation with my fellow beings and of management of my own life, and for me there’s too much to be learned as to start now to practice some other discipline with the guarantee to obtain from it a true progress without reduction of what I can obtain from Shorinji Kempo, which I hope it’s very much. I consider that right now that type of training would not be positive for me and think that my master, who knows better than I which is my real level of formation, would not consider it either opportune, although I’m sure that he would respect my choice. In any case, I don’t believe that he felt betrayed, although really it’s logical he saw a certain reduction of his authority as guide if I ignored his advice in a so important matter. Because my master is my guide, the one that manages the ship, the helmsman.

2) Nevertheless for me it’s totally respectable that any kenshi who considers him/herself enabled for it chooses an option like the previous one. That’s everyone’s problem with his master and his conscience, if this is a conscience question. If somebody wants to train with Mizuno Sensei, he or she already knows his opinion; take it or leave it. But the fact is that practitioners and masters who I know (even Branch Masters) have cross-trained in this way, and thus, according to I have understood, has done it our Kaiso, who is for us example in so many things. Shorinji Kempo has evolved from its beginnings, that is evident, and will continue doing it. What nowadays we consider immutable truths (as much in the technical field as in others) tomorrow will be seeing modified or extended by new truths that we will accept like inherent part in Shorinji Kempo though it seems impossible to us admiting it now. Maybe, when nowadays we despise ground-fighting like improper of Shorinji Kempo, the day arrives when it is as ours as anyone of waza of our present corpus. I believe that the evolution of Shorinji Kempo is not product from the nothingness, but from an objective investigation by the Hombu masters, on the basis of already existing realities and of dialectic contributions produced by the contrast with other disciplines, although it has not had, and it’s my opinion, sufficient sincerity to recognize it. And for the record I am not comparing myself with the Hombu masters: be this well understood if it’s wanted to well understand it.

3) I consider that the previous option only can be truely effective, and contribute with effectiveness to the best formation of the kenshi, if this one has already a level of formation sufficiently advanced in Shorinji Kempo. In another way the choice of one second discipline (or several) would suppose according to I think an interference that would result in a backward movement in the formation in the main discipline, especially if this one is not more considered a main discipline and it is then considered a discipline in equality with the others that can get to be simultaneously practiced.

4) I would not practice a second discipline behind my master’s back or without have his permission. He’s my guide in the way I have chosen and knows what is right for me. I do freely accept his guide and if I don’t do so the alternative is, indeed, to go away.

5) I do not “serve" any master. Rather, I make use of him, of his education and his guide. I also understand that he uses my opinions and whichever contributions from mine can seem valuables to him. I have already said that my master is the helmsman, but I am the skipper, I am the one that has put the ship in his hands, and for that reason I respect him, because in his hands it is a very important part of my destiny. I don’t understand that my relation with my master is comparable to my relation with my wife or, to take as example, with my father, although I know that this was thus in old China or Japan. Anyway, maybe, as other people said, it was necessary to leave for another debate this kind of relation, something as: which are the limits of the bond that link us to our Sensei? In any case I understand that Shorinji Kempo is a way for the formation of strong and able personalities, with own criterion, not a variant of the pseudo-Confucianism advocated by the Bushido. Our text book cannot be a manual of servitude as it is, let’s say, the Hagakure. Shorinji Kempo is not born to form servants, but free people, builders of a peacefully world.

6) I consider positive the sporadic training with fellows or teachers of other martial arts. This is what at the beginning of the debate I had understood like cross-training, although I see that this is not what it was considered. I believe that it supposes for me a positive enrichment like kenshi, something that never has been advised against me by my teachers, and that is a good vaccine against the narrow-mindedness, in addition of that it places to others before the Shorinji Kempo’s reality, strange for many people; it contributes on a small scale to that our discipline enjoys a greater respect in the community of martial artists, and also contributes to that they are erased the prejudices that still can be from other times when Shorinji Kempo suffered of excessive secrecy and lack of communication.

It’s only a point of view, of those that you already will be tired to read :(. Best wishes.

tony leith
4th October 2002, 12:33
I hope that my plea to get us out of the negative feedback spiral that seems to be in progress on this thread didn't seem like it was being dismissive of new points of view, especially not from people relatively new to Kempo. I don't know what grade Manuel is, but frankly I don't care - there was a lot of food for thought in his commentary. I have tried not to be close minded in my own contributions to this debate, but there is a tendency to become dogmatic when confronted by dogmatism which has to be guarded against. I think the critical thing is that while we may not be equal in terms of experience, we are all equal in terms of potential, and the right to be respected as conscious entities. Any kenshi should feel free to contribute to these debates. Fresh perspectives are to be welcomed (in this case, are desperately needed..)

Tony Leith

Manuel
4th October 2002, 12:47
I'm actually Shodan, Toni. But yes... what importance has that? :rolleyes:

Cheers.

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 16:21
Originally posted by Manuel
I'm actually Shodan, Toni.
Who's "Toni?"

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 16:25
Originally posted by Martin Allerby
Tony,
Now we all know what you think of SK in Sweden! Thank you!
I don't think you do, kohai. (If I have to pull rank, I will, though I'd rather not.)
You told me that there were problems in Sweden; if I then repeat that, why should you be upset? Or are you trying to conceal dirty laundry? (This supposes, of course, that there is dirty laundry to be hidden.) But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that there's no such laundry. Mizuno Sensei has declared that cross-training is unacceptable. So, the real question is, what do you plan to do? Defy him?
Kesshu.

Steve Williams
4th October 2002, 17:50
Can we all just take a step back and think about what we are all argueing about.....



We really need a little clarification (Tony, just keep yourself contained for a second ;) )

When we talk of cross training are we reffering to:

(1)Actually starting and training in another MA, every week for a prolonged period, i.e. over a year.

(2)Doing a little training in an informal enviroment with friends who train in other MA.

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 17:59
NO, we are not talking about (2). That was dealt with already, and it's not a problem. It's (1) that's the issue. Mizuno Sensei has declared it's not acceptable, but there are those who intend to press ahead anyway. Who doesn't think this is betrayal? And if not, why not?
This is very much like a court of law. You need to present a case (already done, both sides), and then examine the evidence (the jury's job). But once a ruling has been made, it's no longer a question of whether it's OK; it's a question of how you intend to betray your masters.
Don't you think?
OK, don't take it up with me. Take it up with Mizuno Sensei. It's his ruling, after all.

Manuel
4th October 2002, 20:31
Tony Leith:

I regret the typing error :o your namesake Tony Kehoe has so kindly pointed out. I'm afraid "Toni" is the diminutive of a such an Iberian name as "Antonio" :p.

Cheers.

Jeremy Williams
5th October 2002, 00:54
Hi, Steve. WIth regard to what we are all arguing about, I would say the right to make a decision. If Mizuno Sensei, or even Kaiso himself, advised or recommended something, I would naturally give it very serious consideration and probably follow that advice. However, the final decision is mine, and mine alone. We've heard a lot of language in this debate that is more reflective of the armed forces than a civilian organisation: "pull rank", "defy", "Mizuno Sensei has declared", etc. The SK organisation is not a military one (were it so, I'm sure the Japanese authorities would be more than a little interested) and has no right, whatsoever, to dictate what I do with my time, any more than the legitimate government of either GB or Japan. Whatever Mizuno Sensei might like to do with his organisation in GB, his attitude is very definitely not the only one to be found in Japan. I am living proof of that, along with other foreign kenshi living and pursuing SK over here.
I feel very strongly about this issue. Every time I visit the UK, which is not so often, I make every effort to spread the word about SK and drum up new members. If I thought for one moment that I had been selling my friends' children into a neo-fascist organisation that demanded disenfranchisement and intellectual suicide of its followers, I would be seriously disappointed and advise them to get the hell out immediately. Please tell me this is not so! Frankly, I find it astounding that a teacher of Mizuno's calibre would need to "order" people to do anything: surely the quality of his teaching alone would be enough to ensure the greater part of a kenshi's loyalty in the long run.
Finally, someone back there mentioned something to the effect of, "Mizuno Sensei says that he doesn't teach part-time, and you shouldn't train part-time". Interesting. I remember Goda Sensei (also fairly senior, I believe) telling us that SK is only valid as a part of our ordinary daily lives, and that we shouldn't give it priority over out work and outside lives; that we should quit SK anytime it looked like interfering with such; that we should not be aiming to become full-time SK pros. Here, here! I, for one, intend to follow that good advice and not let SK, much as I love it, interfere with my belief in living in, and the promotion of, a democracy.
That said, have a nice weekend everybody!

Jeremy Williams (KAP-Kohai And Proud)

Kimpatsu
5th October 2002, 02:05
So, what we've really got here is a bunch of people who are saying, "The UK Chief Instructor has made the rules clear, but I don't agree with them, so I'm going to ignore them."
In Shorinji Kempo, there is a clear chain of command. There is also a chain of command in the military. Ours has to be just as rigorous to prevent the kind of in-feuding that we've witnessed in other organisations.
Or do you want to be as riddled with politics as everyone else?

Jeremy Williams
5th October 2002, 05:44
Tony. Chain of command! There you go again with all that military stuff. Are you sure you haven't missed your true calling in life? You seem to enjoy going over the top so much that I would have thought a good trench war would be right up your street...(please excuse that attempt at frivolity. It was just a joke, honest!).
First, I'd like to ask why you only give us two alternatives: your way or the whole world going south in a handbasket? I believe there might be other possibilities. You talk in terms of "being riddled with politics". So, what's wrong with that. Look at any major political organisation around the world, the EU for example, and, yes, it's slow, inefficient, and teeming with boring politicos who'll happily talk the hind leg off a donkey. Great! It sure the hell is better than shooting each other every five minutes. On the other hand, take a look at any good, efficiently run military dictatorship. See what I mean?
But let's get back to your "chain of command". I have no problem with that within SK. It makes perfect sense to take the advice of your teacher when in the dojo. Otherwise, why would one bother to go at all, quite apart from the safety factor involved. It is how far the Sensei's power should be allowed to extend beyond the dojo and into my private life that I have a problem with. As long as I'm not letting whatever I choose to do interfere with, or pollute in some way, my SK, and as long as I'm not bringing SK into disrepute, then I really see no grounds for allowing their power to extend that far.
Finally, regarding the political fragmentation one sees in some other organisations, I suspect the root cause might often be found skulking around in a little bag of gold coins as much as anything else. That is something we really don't have to worry about.
So cheer up-the world might just not end if someone disagrees with the Big Tuna...

Jeremy KAP Williams

Indar
5th October 2002, 10:10
Tony (Kehoe),

As George Hyde so eloquently pointed out, the relationship between Master and student is a personal one. The only person that can accuse someone of 'betraying their master' is the master themself.
Likewise, any advice given to you by Mizuno Sensei, applies to you; you shouldn't assume that you can pass on that advice to other people.
Mizuno Sensei stated this in a howa that he gave...he quoted a story in which the Abbot of a Zen monastry is asked the same question by two monks, the question being 'do dogs have souls?'. To the first monk he says 'yes', to the second monk he says 'no'. The point being that the answer to the question depends on who is asking the question.

By the way, what does 'Kimpatsu' mean?

Indar Picton-Howell

Kimpatsu
5th October 2002, 11:04
Kimpatsu means "blond hair", Indar, even though I don't have much hair left any more. ;)

Alex Tilly
6th October 2002, 17:25
Hi everyone, I cannot resist the temptation to make a statement in this very intense discussion.

I must agree with Indar that what Mizuno sensei advices to Tony might not apply to Steve, since they are different persons. I have discussed this matter with Mizuno sensei and I told him that I practise other styles and he didn´t not disapprove. I practise BJJ, boxing and judo on a regular basis. Every saturday I invite leading practisioners of those styles to practise in my dojo with me and my students. On saturdays my students can see me be thrown, punched and choked over and over again. This develops me as a branchmaster: I learn new techiques, new ways of teaching, I get new ideas of how to apply Shorinji Kempo techniques. It makes me a better teacher, a better Shorinji Kempo practitioner, and I become more humble. One has to find ones limitations to be able to grow.

For instanse the word "master" implies that one can be complete. But a central point in our philosophy is to always strive to improve, no matter where you are in your development. There are many ways to achieve this goal, cross-training is one. If I am confident that Shorinji Kempo is the martial art for me, and that I have something to give to all my students, I don´t feel betrayed if my students practise other styles. It is their decision, I cannot decide for them or forbid them anything, only influence them to choose Shorinji Kempo because it has more to offer in the long run. I am confident that this is the case, but I also know that boxers punch better than we do, therefor I don´t pretend that they don´t.

In this discussion some have stated who is a genius and who is not, and about rules, betrayal and other concepts that is completely irrelevant to the goal we have: to contribute to a better society!
Even you Tony might be considered a genius if you fulfill your potential as a human being. There is a buddhist principle called "upaya kaushala" wich means something like "the end justifies the means". To use influences from other styles can contribute to our end. Kaiso constantly tried to develop Shorinji Kempo and never stopped watching other styles and their techniques.

I would betray my students if I didn´t do everything in my power to develop as a teacher. If we want to develop leaders we need to develop people who think critically and don´t blindly follow rules without questioning them. I also feel that the only way I would "betray" my teacher Aosaka sensei would be if I didn´t continue to develop.

Finally I wonder why Tony refer to Martin as kohai? And what "pulling ranks " means? We start Shorinji Kempo with totally different backgrounds and experiences, and our rank is not a measure of our maturity, as you have proven over and over again. Someone told about Mizuno sensi who put an end to a discussion with the question " do you want to do randori with me?" I would be more than happy to give you this opportunity to convince me Tony. Or to convince any of my 1st kyu students if you prefer. ( and don´t tell me that I have to ask Mizuno sensi the same thing, because it is not with him I disagree, but with you)

Sincerely yours,

Alex Tilly
Shorinji Kempo Stockholm Södra
Sweden

Tripitaka of AA
6th October 2002, 21:49
If I might be so bold...

I suggest that this post be locked by the Moderator.


Ther have been many posts. There have been many views. It would seem that these have now been exhausted and repetition has been replaced by potentialy damaging suggestions and taunts.

Damaging to the Forum. Damaging to Shorinji Kempo.

Take it to Email if you want to reply with things that might be better said on to a 1 to 1 basis. Others are listening too... and this thread will still be here... to be seen by others when you have all had time to cool your blood and be embarassed by at what has been said.

Anders Pettersson
6th October 2002, 23:07
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
If I might be so bold...

I suggest that this post be locked by the Moderator.
This thread will now be closed, as requested.

I had thought of giving a reply, lock this thread and try to end this discussion earlier, but unfortunately didn't have the time (we have just had a small Yudansha Gasshuku here in Karlstad, and I have been busy with that). There have been some to hard words between people and I don't think we need that in this forum. Everybody should try and discuss things in a little more friendly way. Of course we can disagree on things, but keep it civil.


As for my view on cross training I don't think I need it, I have far to much things to study within in Shorinjikempo, both concerning techniques and philosophy, so I don't have the time to do training in other martial arts. I also think that we have more than enough of techniques to learn within our own system before looking too much at other arts. What is interesting though is to learn about teaching methods etc., but that is things that you can find in any other art of sport or philosophy, it doesn't have be other martial arts.

However I do not think that we can forbid any kenshi to do this. Many senior teachers don’t forbid this either. Morikawa-sensei (who I consider as my main teacher), Doin-cho of Rakuto-doin and by many people are considered to be very conservative, has two sons that both are 6 dan today. They have practised since they were very young, more or less growing up in the dojo (Rakuto-doin's dojo are connected to the house of Morikawa-sensei). Both of them have (at least) 4th and 3rd dan in Kendo and Iaido, they have never stopped their practice in Shorinjikempo at any time so they have had to been doing cross training.
As for Morikawa-sensei himself, he is a priest of Jodoshu Buddhism but that wasn't a problem for Kaiso.

And as for cross training, where can we draw the line of what is Ok or not? That is impossible as I see it. Is it not Ok to do other Budo?, if so would Boxing be ok, since it is just a sport. If not should it be forbidden to do running, since that is another sport?

We cannot decide what kenshi do outside of the Shorinjikempo dojo. However I think it is important to stress that in a Shorinjikempo dojo we practice Shorinjikempo and not other things, if kenshi want to practice other techniques I think they should go elsewhere. If they don't like what they learn within Shorinjikempo, they should stop and do other things.

If any of my students wants to do cross training I cannot forbid them, but I would certainly discuss it with them if I think that it would have an effect on their technique in a bad way. If they do another martial art I would advice them to do something that doesn't effect their Shorinjikempo technique in a bad way.

The only (official) rule concerning cross training that I am aware of is that if you are Shibu-cho (branch master) you are not allowed to teach other martial arts. If you are a leader of Shorinjikempo you represent Shorinjikempo and should not represent other martial arts at the same time.

/Anders