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Paihequan
29th September 2002, 00:33
Has anybody heard of the Ryu Ryu Ko & Huang Sheng Shyan Lineage?

I am in touch with a group that claims to teach part of the original White Crane style, learned by their founder (Master Huang Sheng Shyan) directly from the famous Ryu-Ryu-Ko (the teacher of Master Higaonna, the founder of Goju-Ryu style of Karate).

In particular, they teach 2 Katas, that they claim to be the original White Crane Katas : Ba Bu Lien I Lu (the kata Sanchin in Goju-Ryu) and Ba Bu Lien Er Lu (the kata Tensho of Goju-Ryu).

Regards,

Ron Goninan

GojuMaster
1st October 2002, 15:50
Ron,

I'm familar with this lineage. Huang Sheng Shyan was first a student of Xie Zhong Zhang, and later a student of Cheng Man Ch'ing, who basically said that his White Crane training taught him what he would learn in his first 10 years of Taiji.

I've seen Ba Bu Lian I & II from this lineage, and they do not resemble any Okinawan Sanchin or Tensho any more than most versions of "Happoren" do.

These 2 forms are simply slightly different than the standard Ming He Sanchin / Happoren form.

I have also seen the Nipai and some 2-man forms from this lineage as well...very good stuff, I must say.

Best Regards,

Russ Smith
http://www.Goju-Ryu.info/

Paihequan
2nd October 2002, 02:06
Thanks for the info Russ, I am getting video footage of these forms (as well as others and their push hands) in the next week so I'll be more informed to discuss with you the relevance (or not) of these forms to the Goju lineage.

Paihequan
5th October 2002, 11:47
I practice these forms but are not sure of their full relation to Goju as they do not follow the embusen of the Goju forms. This is not to say that they are not original only different. Who knows what evolution Goju has truly undergone since it's Chinese origins. The footage I am getting is of Yap Giong and as per the Chinese way of things, he has, I understand, added of his own self to the performance of these forms.

PingAnTu
26th October 2002, 22:47
Interesting, I didn't know about the RyuRyuko connection.

I trained for a short time with Master Huang's top disciple in Taipei. He was really good at White Crane and Tai Chi. I just studied Tai Chi with him though. He demonstrated his Baihequan for me a few times and it looks nothing like Goju. They use a lot of shaking power. I also watched his baihe students doing the basic stuff and I was reminded more of shaolin type movements than Goju. I quess I should have payed more attention but I'm from a Shuri lineage and not Goju so I just wasn't that interested. I do remember asking him about white crane in Okinawa and he said "Liu Qiu ye you!" -- Okinawa's got it too! I don't think he would consider Goju to be white crane though. He's about 80 so he always had people show up that were friggin scarry experts at white crane asking about this or that. His group is known for their expertise in push hands though. I got the impression that their primary interest was in tai chi, wc was secondary but important.

Paul Adamson

Tatsu
27th October 2002, 03:45
If you look at kata from Orthodox ShuriTe, you will see many Crane influences. One example would be Chinto, which means "vision of a crane". The second leg movement includes a simultaneous crane stance (or knee to body) to a right uppercut. The Hakutsuru kata of Seito Matsumura means "white crane'. As for the Shorei tradition, specifically Goju, it is well known that it does contain some crane techs, but the majority of its chuan fa influence was from tiger, dragon, lion and leopard boxing.

Southern Crane heavily influenced much of the Okinawan arts. The majority of its influence was on Shorin (ShuriTe) as opposed to Shorei. The wider stances of styles like Goju lends credence to this, as most old school Fukien White Crane was done from natural stances, not the deep, combat ineffective styles that are an attribute of many modern "wushu" and Northern forms.

Once more, White Crane was formulated by a woman. Unless she was very tall doing things from a really wide short stance just would not make sense. Crane relies on body movement and superior body positioning. This eliminates your opponents weaponry and gives you angles to attack from with less resistance. Again, wide, deep stances hamper this essential principle. If you were a Goju stylist why would you consider yourself a White Crane stylist, unless of course you were to learn some Chinese Southern Crane? Most don't and you probably wouldn't. Many Shorin practitioners will tell you the opposite, because it is well known that Shorin has a very heavy Crane influence.

Some scholars use the Gokenki argument, and state that this "tea merchant" was a White Crane expert. Many NahaTe types trained with him, as did some ShuriTe cats like Hohan Soken and Kenwa Mabuni. I don't know how proficient of a practitioner Gokenki was, but it makes you think. I know that Soken Hohan claims he was taught the Hakutsuru kata by his uncle Nabe, who in turn learned from Sokon Matsumura his Grandfather, Matsumura learned in China while learning Shaoilin Chuan Fa. His knowledge of White Crane was probably a little more detailed than a tea merchants'. Just an opinion, though. Ru Ru Ko is another story altogether.

The use of strength (external power) is a facet of Goju and Japanese Karate that is totally counterintuitive to the lessons learned in Crane-derivative styles. The low, wide stances you see in Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Japanese Goju, Okinawan Goju, Kyokushinkai and so on are a result of the Goju (NahaTe) and not Shorin (ShuriTe) influences on modern karate. These are NOT crane influences, so most karate that you see has lost a lot of its crane flavor. With the exception of circular movements and strikes, Goju is very "un-Chinese" in its approach. Or should I say that it is very externally oriented if it is a derivative of Shaolin White Crane's dual, and very internal nature.

CEB
28th October 2002, 16:37
Originally posted by PingAnTu
Interesting, I didn't know about the RyuRyuko connection.

.....

Paul Adamson

Neither do they Paul. We don't even know who Ryuryuko was. Probably never will. But if it doesn't look like Goju Ryu it probably isn't Goju Ryu.

CEB
28th October 2002, 20:42
Originally posted by Tatsu
.... As for the Shorei tradition, specifically Goju, it is well known that it does contain some crane techs, but the majority of its chuan fa influence was from tiger, dragon, lion and leopard boxing.

What is your source of the well known information?



Originally posted by Tatsu
The wider stances of styles like Goju lends credence to this, as most old school Fukien White Crane was done from natural stances, not the deep, combat ineffective styles that are an attribute of many modern "wushu" and Northern forms.

What big wide Goju Stances are these. I can only think one PREDOMINATE big wide stance in our kaishu kata. That would be Shiko dachi and it has very important combat applications. Four cornerstones of various southern systems are to: sink, float (rise), swallow(draw, pull ect..), and spit(repel). You can't sink if you don't drop your butt. You guys do the the same thing to a certain degree in Jigotai Dachi, I'm thinking about the throwing techinques from Gojushiho. Can't float ( rise ) unless you've rooted to begin with. I don't believe that there are stances in a fight just transitory positions. A lot of what I try to do in Goju is to use my body to drop, raise , pull in or repel my opponent. It isn't much different in principle from how a Judo player approaches kuzushi. It is somewhat different because there are limitation placed on you in Judo which reduces the things you can do and judo players are so well attuned to each others kuzushi. I would never try repel a judo man with a long step technique,unless there was some very good atemi to go along with it. This is frowned upon in randori.

There is some long stance work in Shisochin. But the long postures in Shisochin look very very similiar to postures in taijiquan(a Chinese method). This is why I became interested in Taijiquan.

There is a long step in Kururunfa following the nelson escape which makes sense in application. Sanseiru has long nidan geri usually now practiced as a single kick or 2 single kicks following a leg take take down. The long kicking technique works very well if you have nailed the leg takedown. Saifa has some push and pull techniques done out of a longer front stance, again this is using the body so you push and pull using just arm.

Most of the rest of the system is done using short stance work. Kihon dachi lines up heel/toe as far as length. The bulk of the system is done from this very short stance.


Originally posted by Tatsu
With the exception of circular movements and strikes, Goju is very "un-Chinese" in its approach.


That is a very broad statement. I don't think you can make a statement such as this. What is the Chinese approach? I have some training background in two Chinese arts. Both arts are traditional Chinese arts. Both arts are completely different. Almost opposites in their approach. Which one is Chinese, Wing Chun or Taijiquan? Since there is A CHINESE APPROACH I guess one of these arts must not be Chinese.

The Gung Fu methods I have investigated have more closely resembled Goju than Shorin. That is because I have sought out information on Chinese methods that more resemble Goju. I'm sure there are methods that sort of resemble Shorin also but I have had no interest in them.
China is a pretty big place I would never say something so wide sweeping that Shorin is "un-Chinese" in its approach.

My guess is Shorin Ryu is about as Chinese as Goju Ryu is. They are both forms of Okinawian Boxing. Okinawian Boxing is Okinawian not Chinese. The search for this missing white crane link has done more than anything I can think of to perpetuate fraud in the traditional Ryukyu martial art circles in the last 20 years. The problem is that there is now enough general information available on the subject matter it has become very hard to tell the frauds from anyone who may have genuine knowledge. Fluff has made the point to me recently that it no longer pays to even point out when and why you think someone maybe feeding you a load of BS because then the frauds use the info you inadvertingly give them to make themselves better frauds. My limited study of Chinese methods have given me some very interesting points of view toward my Goju Ryu, push hand and silk reeling exercises have really made light bulbs go off when practicing kakie. But this doesn't make Okinawian boxing Chinese. Maybe someday when we discover Chinese boxers who really practice Chinto or Sepai I maybe convinced but my first instinct will probably be to assume that they are just another group of frauds.

PS: I am in no way accusing Ron Gonian and his people of being frauds I am just addressing this whole 'Okinawian / White Crane infatuation thing' in general. I don't know know anything about Ron Gonian other than he is says he is a student of Mr. Yabiku.

Tatsu
29th October 2002, 01:08
I have to agree that I made some very general statements regarding Goju/Shorin and the Crane connection. I am good friends with a Higaonnna Goju BB and I must say that his kata does retain a lot of the Chinese open-hand "flavor". He has nice "stances", and with the exception of Sanchin, his Shisochin and Kururunfa are relaxed, smooth and awesome. Again I speak from a limited perspective, and can only surmise and deduce based on what I've seen, read, researched and been taught.

There is very little comparison between Okinawan Karate and modern Chinese Chuan Fa. With the exception of Taiwan and to a lesser degree the Chinese Mainland, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and the North Eastern US, there is very little legitimate White Crane and Nejia available. Comparing would be difficult. A lot of the "kung fu" that is taught is either minor styles like Wing Tsun or flowery wu-shu influenced sport.

When I say that there is an obvious Crane connection in ShuriTe vs. NahaTe, I am referring to the names of the forms like Rohai, Hakutsuru and Chinto. The term "Crane" is used specifically, and the stances, although altered, help to support this. Also, Soken talked of this Crane stuff way before all the Crane "buffs" emerged from the woodwork. White Crane and its contribution to Shorin is not a novel idea. I remember being a teenager in the Philippines in the early 80's and my Shorinkan Sensei reiterating the fact, many times, that Shorin and Okinawan Karate were Crane derived fighting forms. He had no reason to perpetuate any fallacies, as it made no difference to the average student if it was White Crane or Black Rhino influenced. He was taught this history so he passed it on.

The reason I brought up Goju Ryu having wider, longer stances than Shorin was due to the fact that this is the way Mr. Goninan is seen on his website executing his "Goju" stances. For the most part Goju Ryu does use natural stances like Shorin, and in fact some Shorin Ryuha use exaggerated stances. I guess it depends on how you learned and from whom.

What I should have said was that if Ron is doing his "Crane Karate" from these stances then I fail to see the practicality and effectiveness it would have.

I see Goju as an equal and in some cases, superior system, to Shorin. Both have external and internal influences. Whether these influences were Shaolin (Crane or otherwise), Nejia (Hsing Yi, Tai Chi, Bagua) we may never know. To try and pass karate off as ONLY a Chinese (influenced) art is silly. Like any other sport or MA it has evolved way beyond the original Ti and Chuan Fa influences. It is still evolving, but sometimes I think that this process is devoutionary as opposed to evoultionary.

Thanks for handling my obtuse ways with kid gloves. I know I can come off as a brash ignoramus, but I'll be the first to admit when I am wrong. I apologize for the "un-Chinese" comment. I have the utmost respect for all Ryukyuan arts and culture. Have a great week!

Paihequan
29th October 2002, 01:49
Ed Boyd

Hi Ed. No problem with your questioning things! Yes Yabiku Takaya of Sikina, Aoyama Okinawa was one of my Tsuruken or "Crane-Fist" teachers. I am also very, very closely associated with a special family group teaching Shihequan and Paihequan in Taiwan who wish to remain unknown at this point in time.

There are far too many "out there" who parade around in a suit made of Crane's feather's yet who look more like a Big Goose than a crane! So I understand your questioning.

The forms of Pah Puh Lien (also known as Ba bu Lien I Lu) and Ba Bu Lien Er Lu follow a similar pattern of movement to the more common Happoren form although Ba Bu Lien Er Lu is considered to the forerunner of Goju's Tensho Kata and this is certainly reflected in its movements. Another form of interest is the Ershibada form of Whooping Crane as it has many Goju-Ish traits

Tatsu As for Gokenki the teach merchant, why is it that his employ should have a reflection on his art? I do not see the connection. If one knows anything about Soken Hohan's Hakutsuru then it is obviously derived from the Shihequan (Feeding Crane Style). In fact Soken had a connection to a number of Taiwanese Feeding Crane Boxers. I say "Hohan Soken's Hakutsuru" as this is what it was called on Okinawa in my dealings. I as do a number on Okinawa, feel that it is Soken's form and not of the direct line Matsumura lineage. This is not to take anything away from Soken as it is a very interesting form in itself.

CEB
29th October 2002, 03:04
Originally posted by Tatsu
...

I apologize for the "un-Chinese" comment. I have the utmost respect for all Ryukyuan arts and culture. Have a great week!

No problem, nothing to apoligize for. There was no insult that I could see. The "un-Chinese" point I hoped to make was that the world of Chinese martial arts is so big that I don't believe there is a Chinese approach. Maybe a BaGua approach or a Taiji approach or a BakMei approach or Wing Chun approach, Foo Jow Pai approach, Ngo Cho Kuen, HungGar ect.........

China is a really big place.


Seriously if you have a source for the first quote of yours I posted I would like to know what it is. I have heard other people make that same or similar statements.

CEB
29th October 2002, 03:20
Originally posted by Paihequan


...

There are far too many "out there" who parade around in a suit made of Crane's feather's yet who look more like a Big Goose than a crane! So I understand your questioning.
....


I kind of floated into the crane fraud rant without thinking about how you had originated the thread. I wanted to go back and make it clear that I wasn't making any acusations towards you. That is why the PS.

Although I haven't seen your martial arts I have always found you to be polite, helpful and forthcoming. I'm just a Goju guy and don't know anything about Paihequan, but I appreciate your dialogue.

PingAnTu
30th October 2002, 03:33
Bai (white) He (Crane) Quan (Martial art) is totally cool in my book but I think it's stretching it if you try to say that it is a big influence on Okinawa Karate -- especially Shuri style.

Chinto, according to Mr. Swift, means "to sink the head" (Chinese = Chen Tou). He makes the argument that this makes sense when you see the first move of the kata.

As far as "crane" postures -- Raising the knee to protect the groin may give the vision of being a crane but the facts are that this posture is common in almost all chinese styles -- especially nothern styles.

Of the traditional crane styles I've seen in taiwan, they more closely resemble Goju/Naha because they use dynamic tension with breath coordination. This facet is nonexistent in Shuri style.

Many Chinese martial arts borrow an essence of a particular animal but that doesn't mean that they are heavily influence by that animal. Tai Chi uses the "white crane spreads its wings" posture but it in no way resembles any southern crane style I've seen.

I think it's interesting that Chojun Miyagi chose to study Baguazhang when he went to Shanghai during the war. His research was clearly leading him toward the Nei Jia arts.

If I were a Goju stylist, however, I would indeed pay attention to the true traditional crane styles that have roots in Fujian province. I think it would reveal tons of cool stuff for the practitioner of sanchin, tensho. Sanchin is a lot deeper than just breathing and tensing. It seems to me that the key word is "pulsing" or "pumping" the energy throughout the body -- practicing the perfect continuum between absolute hardness and softness, once you have it you don't need it anymore. It's just a guess on my part but it seems to make sense.

The Shuri style seems to me to be much closer to northern styles. I've also been told that by high ranking shorin stylists.

As far as Soken Hohan's crane style, I can't comment because I haven't seen it. I would like to see it though. I would also like to see his karate in general (especially kusanku kata). My line of shorinryu is a type of matsubayashiryu that also practices Soken's kusanku. (For Bryan) Does anybody know where I can get my hands on some footage? I would really like to see some. He's an important figure in Shorinryu and I would like to know more about him.

Paul Adamson

Paihequan
31st October 2002, 23:51
Ed Boyd: Again no problem sir. I fully understand the way you feel as I feel the same way.

Paul Adamson: Hi Paul. Thanks for your comments regarding White Crane. Yes I agree that if you look a the Shuri Or Shorin Kata its ahrd to see a great deal of traditional Crane-Fist within. The Matsumura (Machimura) tradition of Soken Hohan however certianly does have many of the traits of the Shihequan or Feeding Crane style which is not all that suprising considering that Soken had exchanges with Feeding Crane boxers from Taiwan.I have a great deal of footage of this grand old master. In fact its fairly commonplace nowadays.

Tatsu
3rd November 2002, 01:19
Ed: My main source for the "Goju as a derivative of styles other than crane" is Patrick McCarthy and numerous sensei here and in SE Asia that I've spoken with. I don't know how accurate it is. I do know that human "facts" change all the time.

Paul: I have been told of the Northern Shaolin and Shorin connection. I wouldn't doubt it, but Soken, Kinjo and Kise have a slightly different opinion concerning Matsumura Orthodox's origins.

Ron: You are very well researched and read. I don't know about your application, but many of your theories (historical) make perfect sense. Still you said something curious. You stated that Shuri/Shorin had very few noticeable crane techs in its arsenal. You then stated that Soken's Matsumura Seito was a lot like "Feeding Crane" as seen on Taiwan. Is this ryuha the exception or the rule? I was told a while back of the crane connection and Shorinkan. We used many crane beak fist forms and even a lot of crane nomenclature and techniques in our self-defense and ippon kumite.

My question to whomever is: Was the Crane fraud popular in the late 70s and early 80s before the karate kid came out? I doubt Ulysses Aquino a lifelong practitioner of Shorin Ryu and various other arts, born and raised in Angeles City, RP, and trained in Okinawa under Shuguro Nakazato, had any sense that using the crane "mystique" would draw in people who didn't have the faintest clue about the animal styles. I know it didn't matter to me or my brother. It looked hard-core and was good for competition and self-defense. At least that's what we perceived.

Rob Alvelais
3rd November 2002, 03:20
You know guys,
When I do Chinto (shito ryu) it sure feels like a crane.

Anyway, when I was a kid, I used to see a lot of white crane. I didn't understand what they were doing, but it looked like they were moving about in a horse stance while moving both arms in a windmill like fashion. I don't see a lot of white crane gung fu around much any more. I couldn't tell you if it was Tibetian White Crane or Fukien, but we do have a large Tibetian White Crane contigent here in the SF Bay Area. Anyway, the point of this is that the movements of these guys in my memory really reminds me of the downward blocking movements that I see/do in kata like Seipai or Seienchin.

Rob

Paihequan
3rd November 2002, 04:41
Tatsu:

Thanks for your all too kind comments. Regarding the Machimura Suidi of Soken Hohan, of all the Shorin-Ryu styles, this one most resembles elements of the Feeding Crane system. Shorinkan is more Japanese in its essence. Matsubayashi and Kobayashi etc seem to have little to no connection to Crane-Fist.

I think the whole "Crane" thing may have commenced with people searching for the "Holy Grail" or the Matsumura Hakutsuru form which in my humble opinion is actually a form derived from Soken Hohan's experiences with Taiwanese Feeding Crane Boxers and not of the actual Matsumura tradition. Many claim to have this kata and have creatively added other versions such as the Sho, Chu Dai and Mei to its fame (mainly to cover their lack of knowledge of the original). Nowadays it seems just about every karate style has a "Crane" kata.

The fact is that true and traditional Paihequan looks nothing at all what most people envisage ""Crane-Fist" to be. Please go to our web site at: http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken for a better idea on the traditional form (read "Crane-Fist Overview" possibly the most complete overview on the Internet).

Patrick McCarthy
3rd November 2002, 07:55
Ron,

I see you're back to your old tricks again. I have told you before that I don't want you using my name on your web site nor do I want anyone else thinking the Society or I have anything to do with you. Which part of this message is it you don't understand?

Please remove it and any other references to me.

Patrick McCarthy

Tatsu
3rd November 2002, 11:49
Originally posted by Patrick McCarthy
Ron,

I see you're back to your old tricks again. I have told you before that I don't want you using my name on your web site nor do I want anyone else thinking the Society or I have anything to do with you. Which part of this message is it you don't understand?

Please remove it and any other references to me.

Patrick McCarthy

Shihan McCarthy, I hope that my words didn't somehow become misconstrued to be Ron's. I did use your name in response to Ed's inquiry as to where I had heard the "other than crane Goju Ryu lineage" you site as a hypothesis in your version of the "Bubishi" (pgs. 38-39).

Sorry if using your name caused problems for anyobody else. I also hope I correctly comprehended and conveyed what you wrote (concerning Higaonna's Kempo) in the "Bubishi".

Would you have anything to add to the discussion regarding "White Crane, Ancestral Crane, etc." and its link to Okinawan karate? Thank you sir, and have a great week.

Tatsu
3rd November 2002, 11:54
Originally posted by Tatsu
If you look at kata from Orthodox ShuriTe, you will see many Crane influences. One example would be Chinto, which means "vision of a crane".


I made a severe error. I meant to say Rohai and not Chinto, in regards to the "vision of a crane" thing. I was wondering why a couple of you kept telling me the meaning of the term "Chinto".

You can stop shaking your heads now, hahaha!

Patrick McCarthy
3rd November 2002, 20:10
Dear Bryan,

My comments are aimed at Ron Goninan and no one else.

I am happy to respond to any specific query you might have, if I can.

Kind regards
__________________
Patrick McCarthy

Paihequan
3rd November 2002, 22:06
Hi Patrick, How's business? Please know that any reference to your name both real and or imagined has been removed as per your request

Best wishes

3rd November 2002, 22:22
Originally posted by Tatsu


Shihan McCarthy, I hope that my words didn't somehow become misconstrued to be Ron's.

Brian,
I think Pat was referring to Ron Goninan's use of Pat's quotes for an unrelated topic in the "Testimonials" section on his website. Which seem to have been erased since I saw them yesterday.

Paihequan
4th November 2002, 04:32
The matter in question was a line from a personal letter written to me by Patrick McCarthydated on August 13, 1992. It is not a matter of anyone else and as per Patrick's request,on this board it was removed. No big deal. I wish to make it clear that I have no wish nor desire to be linked in anyway to Mr. McCarthy nor his group and or associates.

Back to the subject being discussed previously.

4th November 2002, 04:36
Originally posted by Paihequan
The matter in question was a line from a personal letter written to me by Patrick McCarthy. It is not a matter of anyone elses and as Per Patrick's request,on this board it was removed. No big deal. I wish to make it clear that I have no wish nor desire to be linked in anyway to Mr. McCarthy nor his group.



That's why you put a quote from him in your "Testimonial" section on your website so everyone with a computer and a search engine can see it.
Good thinking........:rolleyes:

Paihequan
4th November 2002, 04:39
Sir,

With all due respects, I shall not enter into a politically motivated war of words with you. You are entitled to your opinions and views as is anyone else who frequents this board. You have stated those beliefs. Thank you for your time.

It was a mistake which I made and I take full responsibility for. I apologize for same. For me sir, the matter is closed

4th November 2002, 04:45
Originally posted by Paihequan
Sir,

wWith all due repects, I shall not enter into a politically motivated war of words with you. You are entitled to your opinions and views as is anyone else who frequents this board. You have stated those beliefs. Thank you for your time.

I see you haven't changed your reply tactics at all since last time.
No politics involved at all.
As for my opinion I know what I saw, as did others, on your website.
You obviously stuck McCarthy's name up there along with a few other names to give yourself some much needed credibility...........and you got busted.

Paihequan
4th November 2002, 04:53
Sir

If it will for some reason make you and your associates happy, yes I got "busted" to use your phrase. I hope this serves to make you feel better about yourself.

It was taken direct without word change from a letter dated and written to me By Mr. McCarthy on August 13, 1992.

It appeared in the testimonial section of my web site.

Mr. McCarthy simply and without displaying ill-manners requested it be removed which it was.

I apologize for any offence this may have caused to Mr. McCarthy and I apologize for any offence it has seemingly caused to your self.

The matter is between myself and Mr. McCarthy and I'm sure he will contact me if he requires further action to be taken. I have responded to his request as per removal of said letter lines and offered an apology. My e-mail is:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

The matter is now closed.

Do you have anything to contribute to the subject matter being discussed previously?

4th November 2002, 12:43
Originally posted by PingAnTu
Interesting, I didn't know about the RyuRyuko connection.

I trained for a short time with Master Huang's top disciple in Taipei. He was really good at White Crane and Tai Chi. I just studied Tai Chi with him though. He demonstrated his Baihequan for me a few times and it looks nothing like Goju. They use a lot of shaking power. I also watched his baihe students doing the basic stuff and I was reminded more of shaolin type movements than Goju. I quess I should have payed more attention but I'm from a Shuri lineage and not Goju so I just wasn't that interested. I do remember asking him about white crane in Okinawa and he said "Liu Qiu ye you!" -- Okinawa's got it too! I don't think he would consider Goju to be white crane though. He's about 80 so he always had people show up that were friggin scarry experts at white crane asking about this or that. His group is known for their expertise in push hands though. I got the impression that their primary interest was in tai chi, wc was secondary but important.

Paul Adamson


Paul,

Just out of curiosity did you ever meet a man by the name of Hung Yi Sheng when you were in Taiwan?

Paihequan
4th November 2002, 22:33
Master Huang's Taiji is amazing to watch! Very practical with a great deal of empahasis on pushing hands practice and proficiency.

The White Crane he teaches (Ba Bu Lien I Lu, Ba Bu Lien Er Lu, Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu)follows the same pattern of movement as Happoren/Pah Puh Lien with some variations on the Bridge-Hands between each form. The exception is his Ershibada which his school of thought also calls the "Speed-Fist of Chang's Southern Fist".

The basics taught are basically Shihequan's element hands, palm and fist yin yang etc.

His students are very good practitioners of both Tai Chi and Crane-Fist.

I believe his school has a very strong following in Italy and New Zealand