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George Hyde
3rd October 2002, 15:11
Hi All,

Like many topics raised here, the recent discussion on cross training highlighted a recurrent theme that I think is worth specific consideration; that of "cultural differences".

Viewpoint #1:
It is in the nature of cultural differences to be somewhat obvious and as such, the degree to which they may hinder understanding is similarly obvious. Once established, adjustments and alterations tend to follow quite naturally in an effort to aid understanding.

Viewpoint #2:
It is in the nature of cultural differences to be somewhat obvious and as such, the degree to which they may make the acquisition of understanding difficult is similarly obvious. Once established, adjustments and alterations tend to follow quite naturally in an effort to make things easier.

(Of course, there are other viewpoints, but these should get things going)

I don't wish to suggest that I know all the answers, or claim that I am entirely guiltless, but whenever I hear the "ahh, but that's a cultural difference, it simply won't work in the west" response, I tend to want to scream, "stop! - before you start throwing out the bath water, check for babies!"

On the one hand it seems necessary to strip away the cultural packaging in order to gain a better understanding of something. However, whilst in doing so we can be sure of creating something that is more recognisable and "comfortable", what have we thrown away in the process? More importantly, are we stripping away the "packaging" (as we perceive it) in order to gain understanding or make the task of understanding easier? The difference may seem subtle, but it is important.

I often get the feeling that the cultural dimension begins and ends with "rei-ho" - these routines, titles, greetings etc.. tend to be put down to "tradition" and become a kind of respectful, ceremonial "nod" to the originators of what we now study. As such it is little more than window dressing. If we consider that a primary function of a Zen discipline is to strip away the unnecessary, the superfluous, the characteristics of the world of our perceived reality that blinds us from clear understanding, then is it not safe to assume that these apparent rituals, and other "cultural differences" actually serve a more functional role?

Anyway - I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Later,

tony leith
3rd October 2002, 17:47
Hi George

Despite the fact that I have been amongst those pondering the problems involved in transplanting S.K. to the West, I agree with the basic point you're making. I think there certainly risks involved in adapting S.K to Western sensibilities, of losing those particular and unique qualities which make the activity worthwhile in the first place.

At a practical level, we are in a 'marketplace' competing with the currently fashionable kickboxing Taebo etc. These activities probably demand less in the way of initial commitment from the participant, may well be shorn of any philosophical component. Unfortunately, that's just tough; we probably have to acknowledge that the pool of potential recruits we're looking for is probably smaller. Kempo certainly has its USPs, and to those likely to be interested the philosophy in all its manifestations is one of them.

One problem with the way the ping pong of debate seems to go on this forum is that it does seem to polarise views, probably unnecessarily. Given that we all do Kempo, at the very least we should be able to find ways of disagreeing amicably, and profiting from the exchange of views. The views on the Sensei/student relationship you put forward on the cross training thread made me think more critically about the arguments I put forward.

Tony Leith

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 03:29
Gassho.
To me, with regard to Shorinji Kempo specifically, "cultural differences" just won't wash. Shorinji Kempo is a Japanese art. If, therefore, it is harder for us as Westerners to learn, then we have to make the extra effort. Trying to "adapt" Shorinji Kempo to the West (sic) is nonsensical; it will no longer be Shorinji Kempo. As to Tony's assertion about a "marketplace"; if people want to study what's fashionable, let them. Shorinji Kempo isn't for everyone. If people would rather compete in kickboxing arenas for plastic and metal trophies, that's their choice (see "Dangers of cross-training" in the other thread), but the ethos to which they have then subscribed is mutually exclusive from the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo.
What George Sensei says about reiho becoming no more than a "cultural nod" is also true; although all Kenshi perform Gassho Rei upon entering the Dojo/Doin, for example, how many of them know why they're expected to do it? (This problem holds true for Japanese as well as Western Kenshi.) Experiment: Next training session, ask Kenshi for their reasons why as the enter. See how many different responses there are, and I'll bet most of them will reply, "To show respect to the dojo". But do they really think those four walls require respect, or even want it? They're inanimate bricks and mortar.
Yes, we need the reiho, but people have to know the reasoning behind the gestures, or as George Sensei points out, they become empty and meaningless.
Cross-culturalism leads to another point, though: I notice that some Indonesian Kenshi wear Muslim headscarves during training, even though this presents the danger of a possible accident. Any thoughts on this matter? How far should personal culture be allowed to intrude into safety practices?
Kesshu.

tony leith
4th October 2002, 11:35
Kimpatsu, you could start a fight in an empty room. If you'd ever actually read the damn posts you disagree with, you'd see that far from contending that we have to accommadate ourselves to the 'marketplace' for martial arts, I specifically argued that we have to hold on to what is distinctive and unique about Shorinji Kempo. I think I'm going to go and have a lie down...
As to the argument that Muslim women wearing headscarves is some kind of affront to SK, well clearly if they were trying to train in full bharka (don't know if this the right word) that would be a serious problem. Given though that in that cultural context to not allow women to wear headscarves might be to effectively deny women the opportunity to train, I think you probably have to just take the issue on balance..

Tony Leith

Kimpatsu
4th October 2002, 16:33
Thank you for that complete misassesment of my position. (But then again, this is nothing new.)
Start a fight in an empty room? At least I'd win. :D
Shorinji Kempo is unique; if you don't specify that, you're already off-beam. As to the burka (note the spelling), I never mentioned it. My problem was the less serious headscarf. However, given that it's a danger in training, why is it allowed? Shorinji Kempo, after all, requires no sacred cows, which is what nonsense like this is. You can wear a dayglo T-shirt with "All blonds are wankers" written on it, if you like; just don't do it in training, whre it's against the uniform code (not for dogmatic reasons, but for safety reasons).
Or don't you care about safety?

tony leith
7th October 2002, 11:32
Yes, of course I care about safety. I would imagine that the main problem with a headscarf would be cutting down on peripheral vision, and I can imagine that they could be worn in such a way as to minimise this problem.

I shall pass lightly over the irony of you having a go at anybody else's 'sacred cows', Kimpatsu. I personally have no time for any of the theistic belief systems. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that for the people who do, they're a very important part of their lives, and expecting them to choose between that and Shorinji Kempo seems unfair. I've never been to Malaysia, but I would suspect that its society is already pretty male dominated. Denying women the opportunity to train would be contributing further to their disempowerment.

Incidentally, there is a discussion elsewhere on this forum about whether it is right and proper for women to wear hoi, or even - gasp - sit cross legged during chinkon. This is the kind of thing I mean when I think about redundant cultural baggage in the context of SK, not the core values of the training.
I can imagine the response this is likely to get. I intend trying to exercise a self denying ordinance to obviate the risk of another futile round of abuse as on the cross training thread.

Tony Leith

Kimpatsu
7th October 2002, 12:24
My greatest worry about the headscarf is that it could get snagged, and when pulled off, take a clump of hair with it. Maybe we should all shave ourselves bald? ;) (I have an obvious advantage here.)
Tony, if you'd followed the threads on religion in the Members' Lounge, you'll know my opinion of religion (I even started the thread.) But to be the subject of such abuse from my fellow Shorinji Kenshi... Pity there's no emoticon denoting head in hands, or the huge sigh I just heaved.

Steve Williams
7th October 2002, 23:33
Tony (K)....

I heave a huge sigh every time I read your posts at the moment....

Perhaps you should re-read what you have written, before you hit the "Submit" button?? (Or even get someone else to re-ead it?)


In answer to your worry about the headscarf getting snagged:

I actually asked one of the Malaysian kenshi if it was uncomfortable to train in, this was a few years ago when I was in Japan at an international Taikai, and I was not as tactful as I am now :eek: , she (in broken English, although not as broken as my non-existant Malaysian) said that it was her normal clothing, and as such she did not notice any difference between training and her everyday life....


I think that if I (or you Tony) were to wear such clothing then it would be strange, and probably would get "snagged", but to her it was the same as me wearing my obi..... i.e. no effect to normal training.

Kimpatsu
8th October 2002, 00:12
So long as it doesn't pose a threat to safety, there's no problem, I guess. That's all.

Indar
8th October 2002, 13:21
This thread seems to have drifted away from the original question, which is a pity because it is a fundamental one, underlying many of the other questions being asked in this forum.
I think that the point that George is getting at is that when we practise Shorinji Kempo we are in fact dealing with two different areas; Kongo Zen (as I understand it) says that we all have a buddha nature and are potential buddhas, therefore any cultural differences, (or any other differences) are irrelevant. However the structure of Shorinji Kempo is based on Japanese culture. This structure is essential to learning Shorinji Kempo, but is not what Shorinji Kempo is actually about. The problem is how to differentiate between the two areas. One problem for 'westerners' seems to be getting tied up with the protocol or etiquette, without actually understanding it. An example of this would be a branch master referring to himself as sensei, which a Japanese person would never do. Is this simply a misunderstanding, or something more fundamental, i.e. a different mindset? The suggestion is that the differences are in fact more than simply cultural. Is this the case, and if so, what does it mean for the development of Shorinji Kempo?

Indar Picton-Howell

Kimpatsu
8th October 2002, 13:43
Gassho.
Japanese sensei call themselves "sensei" in the same way that a parent will call themselves "mummy" or "daddy", to train the children (i.e., us) in the correct form of address. As such, there's no thread drift; more a different focus.
HTH.
Kesshu.

David Dunn
8th October 2002, 14:36
Hi Indar,
hope all is well with you.

My feeling on the original question is that I'm not so sure that the (historical) cultural differences are as great as implied. In Britain there is a long history of etiquette and respect of hierarchy. Our grandparents, and probably many of us would have been used to going into a church, making the sign of the cross, taking communion, reciting a creed and listening to instruction from the pulpit. We called our teachers 'sir' or 'miss', stood up when the head walked in and so on and on.

Perhaps the reason that 'cultural differences' have a bearing in the dojo is that our generation (in Britain anyway), have dismantled the reverence for tradition and hierarchy. No one goes to church; we're more likely to call our teachers 'mate'; we believe that we know as much about our diseases as doctors do. Aren't young Japanese people also doing likewise? Will it alter the way that Shorinji Kempo is practised in Japan?

George is right to point out that rei-ho becomes just a cursory nod in the direction of our origins. The whole point is to understand that rei-ho is not simply ritual, and to avoid making it so.

On the specific point Indar raised, isn't it the same here? You would not introduce yourself as "Mr Picton-Howell", or "Professor Yaffle", or "Grandmaster Flash". It would sound odd, if not a little presumptuous.

Indar
8th October 2002, 15:35
sorry, I obviously didn't make myself clear.
the specific example I gave was of a western branch master who will telephone someone and introduce themselves by saying 'this is sensei smith', whereas the Japanese branch master would simply say 'this is smith'
the point being that the westerner is using a Japanese title, but in a way that a Japanese person would never do.

Indar Picton-Howell

tony leith
8th October 2002, 17:50
I operate at the pretty signficant disadvantage in this discussion of (as yet) never even having visited Japan, never mind resided there for any significant length of time. Indar, are you just saying that a Westerner is likely to impute a different signficance to a title like 'Sensei' than a Japanese person - isn't this inevitable? I take on board your point about the structure of Shorinji Kempo inevitably reflecting its Japanese context, but I have heard stories (possibly apocryphal) about some Japanese kenshi adding slight bows to gassho rei, and doing things like filing into the pub after training in strict order of rank...this might be evidence that the heirarchical nature of Japanese society has proved capable of resisting and even subverting Kaiso's intentions to some extent (based on his comments that he wanted to build stronger horizontal bonds between individuals - see an earlier post of mine on the 'How academic is SK' for details)
I think its conceiveable that Kempo outside Japan under the guidance of somebody like Mizuno Sensei might well almost be a truer reflection of Kaiso's purposes in founding S.K, and that those purposes would have to adapt somewhat to a new cultural context in order to remain relevant. The point about 'buddha nature' is a bit too abstract for me: for me the vital part of kempo philosophy is the positive ethical content. This may well be picking and choosing what I want from Buddhism, but I'm pretty unabashed about that. Could any thinking being do otherwise?

Tony Leith