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Shadowmover
4th October 2002, 02:25
In my mindless wandering on the Internet I came across a link from a dojo teaching samurai arts to the website for "Systema", or Russian Martial Arts. Just curious what the dilly-oh is with RMA's.

Is this the "flavor of the month", or the real deal, Neal?

Please don't kick my head in too hard on this one!

Domo arigato...

Alex Kent:D

tmanifold
4th October 2002, 03:24
Check out these links

http://rmax.tv
http://www.russianmartialart.com

The first is for Ross and scott Sonnon, the second is Vald Vasilev and System. Both are good.
Vlad is a former Spetnaz soldier
Scott is a former US Sambo coach.
The Main difference is that Vlad focus more on soft work and Scott is more focused on hard work although both involve aspects of both. Scott's is probably the more balanced of the two.

AmerROSS
4th October 2002, 16:15
Thanks for the heads-up on this thread. And thanks for the good words you, Phil and Tony.

Let me douse this fire before it spreads to the forest. Everytime someone asks about RMA, someone either states something good about Vlad or good about me (rarely both because of silly political games crafted by fanatical troglodytes). Internet enthusiasts having produced positive results post a comparison reflecting a preference for my training method. Others having produced positive results with Vlad post a comparison reflecting a preference for his system.

Quickly people can become defensive because they've had a good experience and would like to share it, or they believe in the positive results they've produced through Vlad or myself. It quickly turns to an in-proxy pissing contest. Vlad's a spets-spook, Sonnon's a sambo-guru, he would kill him with a throwing shovel, or he would rip his leg off and beat him with the bloody stump, yada, yada, yada...

They can argue till you're blue in the face. Vlad and I are apples and oranges; he was a solider and now and instructor, I was a fighter and now a coach. The fact is: Vlad does a good job at what he does, or he wouldn't still be in business. I do a good job, or I wouldn't be in business. Truth ferrets out shams, maybe not immediately, but eventually. Vlad and I have both been running our respective businesses for 10 years. That longevity speaks for itself.

Regarding Balance. Balance is not NECESSARILY a positive characteristic at any one point in one's lifetime. Balance happens over a LIFETIME. For instance, Dr. Tudor Bompa, author of the sport science tome, PERIODIZATION, speaks to the dangers of "cocktail coaching" - of adding this and that to try and have the most balanced or "eclectic" approach possible. He speaks to the hazards it wreaks upon the body's ability to adapt specifically to the demands placed upon it. This is why the eclectic martial art movement will die as a sustainable discipline. It DEFINITELY was a necessary period of history for shaking people from their dogmatic slumber. It must and is evolving.

I PREFER a balance between what I have named "Hard-Work" and "Soft-Work" in English language. But Balance happens from oscillating between the extremes, not by merely choosing and walking the Middle Way. It's a logical fallacy. Balance happens from tacking (like a sailboat) through the course of one's life, going too far on Soft-Work and being "checked" by the negative of over-training that direction, and then going too far on Hard-Work and being "checked" by the negative of over-training in that direction. Over time, one discerns with greater acuity the subtle dance between Hard and Soft.

Alexander Karelin, Frank Goth, and Remy Presas exemplify the positive product of Hard-Work evolving into grace, and I'm sure you can compose you're own examples for your respective sports and arts. Ueshiba, Okamoto, Angier come to mind regarding the positive product of Soft-Work evolving into power, etc... Like I said, I prefer to balance SOFT/HARD Work. I believe that is the best way for me, as a person and coach. Others do as well.

But this internet nonsense so easily degenerates, and there are enough bad guys out there and enough daily training to do without being distracted by online drama.

If you're looking for James Williams, a well-respected individual in the tactical and combatives communities, and his school the Dojo of the Four Winds, just contact him directly, rather than posting an inflammatory question such as "is it flavor of the month"?

Sheesh.

Coach Sonnon
Athletic Performance Enhancement Solutions
www.RMAX.tv

Shadowmover
4th October 2002, 22:41
Coach Sonnon,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think my comment was "inflammatory". Maybe a little immature, or not well thought out, I'll grant you. But that was more due to my inexperience with posting and my tiredness than any desire to anger or incite anyone. That I assure you.

I am admittedly inexperienced in ways martial, and sometimes in the delicate, diplomatic approach to asking questions. But I honestly just wanted to see what folks thought. I don't know anything about you or Vlad's reputation, and experience other than what I (very recently) read on your websites, after my post. So I wasn't trying to incite "trash talk" about Systema. Maybe I took the wrong approach, used the wrong words (flavor of the month), etc., but that was more from inexperience and ignorance about RMA than any intentional malice towards those who teach it.

But I'm starting to ramble. Please accept my sincere apology.

Alex K.

AmerROSS
4th October 2002, 23:03
Alex, thanks for your apology.

I understand your situation. Thanks for understanding mine.

Someone could have misinterpreted your comment as an attack on Vlad and his system. The responses to your post (about me) could have been misinterpreted as sustained attacks, resulting in some defensiveness that could have gotten out of hand. I only posted because it happened on here before in a thread called "Talk about Tanking" where Vlad and I had our names dropped pitted against each other without ever knowing it before it was too late. Fortunately, I was made aware of the thread in time.

So, no sweat. Fire's out.

There are plenty of Systema fans here on this forum. You can also go directly to Vlad's forum on his website, or directly to my forum on my website for specific questions.

Good luck on your Journey.

Coach Sonnon

jellyman
5th October 2002, 15:00
Scott

Well put.

re - soft/hard

beginners in systema tend to be more fistic to start, and turn to less contact as time goes by. At the high end, it looks downright ephemeral. But you can always backslide.

cheers

jellyman
6th October 2002, 03:42
perhaps a bit more of a personal insite:

Systema hit Canada in '93, and has been growing in popularity. I have been training in it for about 4 years under Vlad's supervision, and these days I help run a sattelite club in Hamilton, a Canadian town about 120 km from his school. With his blessing and ecouragement, of course. The school's been doing alright, our enrollment is increasing, things are expanding all over. So no, not a flash in the pan.


But we must be attracting hardcases by some fluke, because 80% of the time these guys who come in want some proof that you know what you're doing. Usually by seeing if you can defend yourself against them, by fighting and resisting you at every turn, after you explain the idea behind what you're going to do. I think it's great for me, it makes me appreciate what I do on a whole new level. Understand, we aren't running a commercial club here - we just want to build up a stable of really tough sparring partners for us and our kids. We don't pay rent for our club, and we make our money in careers outside martial arts, so 100% student retention is not an issue. That said, there is a tendency to try and use the least possible effort to get the desired result. So rather than simply blitz the 'tester', it is considered more skillfull to finesse him. Ultimately to me, that describes the hard/soft continuum. The greater the skill and/or physical attribute differential between you and your opponent, the softer you can afford to be. It's sort of like using the accelerator on a car. There's no sharp delineation, imo, just matters of degree.

Personally, I like to work with as many different types of people as possible. Some guys like to go fast, some slow, some vary. Some like to wrestle, some like to hit and kick. Some new guys do flicky-flicky jabs while running away, some like to try and take your head off. It's all good, to me. That's what sparring is for. For transmitting ideas though, and picking up new movements balls-to-the-wall from start to finish seems to produce sub-optimal results. Systema has a bunch of unorthodox strikes, for example, that are very powerful and hard to block, if done right. If done wrong though, you could injure yourself. You have to learn what the correct delivery feels like at the muscular level. The best way to do this (at least, the way I was taught) is to practice the strikes slowly with attention to form, and increase the speed as you get it right.

We're not all on the level of Mikhail or Vladimir, although Lord knows we wish we were. One prison gaurd in Ryker's Island told me yesterday in Toronto that thus far he's only been able to use the harder striking parts of systema on the job - he finds trinity strikes particularly effective. However, he hasn't been at it very long. I respect this guy a lot, because he uses this stuff for real, but I still feel, as does he, that he has room to grow, not the least because I can afford to be soft with him.

Arthur
6th October 2002, 11:10
My burning question is... will RMA ever be brought up on a non-RMA board without it being a loaded question?

Us RMA guys... we do what we do. we like it. We aren't really selling anything, we aren't attacking anyone, why can't we just be treated like any other martial art.?

Echoing to an extent, what Jellyman said... I've been doing martial arts for 2+ decades. I've taught Judo/Ju Jutsu, Kali and some other things... yet in the last several years(since switching to Systema) I've encountered more people who want to "testy me, than in all the other years combined. What gives?

I read posts on the net, with questions like the one that started this thread, I invite these peple to check us out, yet they don't come... but the posts continue.

I'm here, feel free to come down.. if you want your questions answered, come ask them in person.We are here, we are not hiding, and we are open. between R.O.S.S., Kaochnikov Systema and Systema, I'm sure anyone can find an RMA schol within a reasonable distance.

Arthur

Furtry
8th October 2002, 23:17
John I don't agree with this statement
Ultimately to me, that describes the hard/soft continuum. The greater the skill and/or physical attribute differential between you and your opponent, the softer you can afford to be. This to me implies that against a better fighter only hard work would be effective. When in reality it's not the opponent that determines what is effective, it is your ability that does. Now maybe the big misunderstanding is the definition of hard work and soft work. To me it has always meant how much pain is inflicted, rather than how hard I had to exert my self to finish the job. So to simplify it, hard work = pain for the opponent, soft work = no pain (unless he doesn't know how to fall but then that's his problem)

D. Furman

Ken Good
8th October 2002, 23:56
I write this from the desk of my Hotel room in Toronto.

Went to morning and evening classes at Vladimir's school.

What a fantastic experience!

Morning:
- Did great routine of breathing & movement work.
- Escape work and then working with and against chains.
- The rest of the morning Vladimir spent working with me on how to effectively use a ballistic shield against opponents as an offensive weapon.

Everyone was blown away to see the work. Vladimir said, "our ancestors really knew how to use the shield and we probably have lost most of it"
All I have to say, if I could "have" what he showed, I would be more than satisfied.

Evening class:
- More breath and movement work.
- 30 minutes of "Slow Speed Sparring" (15 minutes) directly with Vladimir
At every turn, every point in the drill I was completely compromised. It is a humbling yet inspirational feeling. The road is long...
- Knife work
- More Shield work.
This time he used a more capable student and unleashed a bit more. Wow!

- I then had the "blessing" of getting the stick. This exercise teaches you how to breathe through pain and absorb punishment as well as help eliminate fear.
After the first few hits, I was a hurting unit!

A bit sore today, but off to class this evening.

Students are extremely helpful and capable to say the least.

Hard/Soft: The practitioner of Systema have the most powerful "soft" art I have ever been exposed to. It don't feel soft when Vladimir is bringing in the strikes. - "Softly of course"

If you have any doubts about the effectiveness or validity of Systema, take a jaunt up here. It is well worth your time and effort.

jellyman
9th October 2002, 12:10
Demetrey, when I was thinking soft, I was thinking of minimization of movement and speed, not relaxation vs. effort. In the sense of being relaxed vs being tense, relaxation carries you through every time, even if (especially if) the other guy is tense. In that sense (relaxed movement/power) systema is indeed soft throughout (although, as Ken says, it doesn't always feel soft). Actually, thinking of Mikhail, I'm not sure if amount of movement is a correct measure of softness, either. Maybe that's more about efficiency, which wuold make sense, since he's equaly efficient against different people...

So yeah, I guess systema is soft. I have heard Rybko's style referred to as 'soft style', now that I think of it...

Paul Genge
18th October 2002, 14:13
I have been lucky enough to train with Vlad for a couple of years. He really impressed me at the first course in the UK, when he worked against two opponents attacking with kives while answering a question asked mid demo by a spectator.

This excited me so much that later that year I visited the Toronto club for six weeks. This was the most physically demanding weeks I have ever spent. People see Vladimir and Michael working with minimal or no contact and they are attracted to it. However they don't seem to realise that the path to that ability involves alot of very hard, sweaty work.

Unfortunately alot of the people training or teaching the RMA outside Vlad's club concentrate on wowing the students. They also don't push the exercise enough because tired aching students don't often come back for more.

What I am trying to say is if you really want to experience Vladimir's style go visit him and do not settle for an instructor who has seen him at a course and owns a set of videos.

Paul Genge
GENGEPT@YAHOO.COM
Manchester, UK.

Cady Goldfield
18th October 2002, 19:48
You will note that James Williams just posted a seminar with Mr. Vasilev that will take place at James' dojo in February. Wish I could afford a trip to sunny San Diego...

James Williams
19th October 2002, 19:12
Cady,

You are welcome any time you can make, the same goes for Dan.

Regards,

James