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vadrip
4th October 2002, 07:38
Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj?

jchamilton
4th October 2002, 10:18
Are you sure Richard?Then again I think that would all depend upon whom is teaching.There are Newaza in the latter part(around 2nd or 1st kyu..I think) of the Genbukan Kyu level...NOT MUCH but ...a start.Then again I am referring to Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and not what most associate with the term "Ninjutsu".Ninpo,as we both refer to it is a much HIGHER "form" when referring to these arts,as compared to the common preception of the public view of what is usually known as "Ninjutsu".To better answer this question look at ANY Ashida Kim book and Richard IS RIGHT ON THAT END.However in the Bugei taught by Tanemura Sensei there are NEWAZA.What can be done sitting(on the ground)can also be done standing for an example.This can go both ways in the form of Henka.For the most part I would have to say that almost ALL KORYU have NEWAZA or they would not be "COMPLETE" as a bujutsu art.In any of the "Kans" there are newaza...in specific ryuha.They are very good and the focus in training is not only on technique but also character,spirit,and respect.Richard has "a point though"!NO Ninpo school has a focus on Newaza like BJJ,or Sambo,etc.However ask this...what will you do if attacked by MORE than one person?If your on the ground..more than likely you stand a very good chance of "going underground" in a real life and death situation.Ninpo/Ninjutsu is an all around fight system not just a sport fighting system made famous by it's ground fighting skills.This might not be what you are looking for ...but to each his own I always say.don't rely on the internet to help,judge for yourself.

John Hamilton

Eric Baluja
4th October 2002, 12:27
Originally posted by vadrip
Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj? [/B] I think both Mr. Ray and Mr. Hamilton are right. There is newaza but there is no newaza randori built into the training as it is in judo, bjj, etc. Although individual teachers may decide to do randori as a training (and sometimes a testing) tool, it is generally not as big a part of the training as it is in judo, etc. In the Jinenkan in particular, I've been advised that randori (in the 'free-est' sense, not just introducing variables into kata geiko) shouldn't be engaged in until after shodan.

Thanks,

MICKEY MULLINS
4th October 2002, 15:30
Hello freinds,
I believe newaza is misunderstood by most people(By saying this,I am not implying that I am 100 percent correct,however this is MY take on the subject.).I believe that correct Taihenjutsu skills keep you off the ground:such as rolling,rebounding,and breakfalls because as basics you are taught a breakfall,then a roll,then you combine them = nagare(flow).However there are skills such as Sutemi waza,where one actually throws themself at the ground,but remember UKEMI and NAGARE.I believe in such a period of time as the Warring States Period,if you were thrown,pushed ,or pulled down and could not excercise Correct Taihenjutsu skills your chances of dying were extremely high.Also on a logical side it would be extremely difficult to get back to your feet(Esp.if surrounded by many enemies)if you were wearing armour.This is not to say Kihon Waza can't be done from the ground,because it can,however I believe the reason for Taihenjutsu is so it doesnt have to be.:)
This is an interesting topic though,any takers?
Mickey Mullins(BJK)

Jeffery Brian Hodges
4th October 2002, 16:46
Dear Forum,
Sincere greetings. I just have a quick comment on randori in general. At the last Tai Kai in Colorado, Tanemura sensei taught us that a particular randori method of Takagi Yoshin ryu was derived from sumo. For example holding the belt of the opponent with the right arm on the inside and the left on the outside, from there you would try to nage the other person the the ground. In contrast Soke also mentioned that you did not see alot of the same grappling as in judo because in older ryu-ha training that two people would not generally be hanging on to each others jacket for a long period of time before a technique to their arm was executed quickly. Soke did teach newaza techniques at the last Tai Kai, however they primarily focused on escape instead of attack, such as escape from juji gatame.
The Takagi Yoshin ryu randori is great fun, a good cardiovascular workout and helps build a strong waist.

sincerely yours,

chris friedman
4th October 2002, 16:49
there is no randori in Bujinkan.

Mark J. Speranza
4th October 2002, 18:59
Hi Guys
Everyone is missing a very importantant point. Where did BJJ come from. The same roots as Ninpo.
And a big problem is that a lot of Ninpo people feel they need to train BJJ to enhance their Newaza skills.

There is very much Newaza and in "older days" a whole lot of randori. Just read Tanemura Sensei's Ninpo secretes to hear about the injuries he got from randori work.

The big problem today is that part of the training has been completely left out. So for the most part has proper throwing and locking fundamentals. Why, your guess is as good as mine.

Kata work is important, but it MUST be balanced with randori to make the priciples of entering and off-balanceing work for each person.

Have a super training day!

JIGOKU
4th October 2002, 19:36
hi there
somebody wrote: there is no randori in the bujinkan...
well, I think the sentence should be change into " there is no randori in the bujinkan nowadays"

As confirmed by people like noguchi sensei or shiraashi sensei there was a lot of randori back in the old days....
so basically there was kihon happo over and over and over again and then randori..........

well what happened with the randori ? never done in japan again, seldom done in a bujinkan dojo and the argument: too dangerous !!
well, too dangergous concerning what ??? concerning discovering the
thruth that one dreamland techniques arent so efficient as always thought whil working with a non resisting (mostly NOT MOVING) partner.......????

just a few thoughts

John Lindsey
4th October 2002, 20:13
Tradition is not a limiting factor to what a teacher can or cannot teach. Twenty years ago when I started my training, there was very little groundfighting at all. Today, it is taught by many teachers. Last year in Japan, Tanemura Sensei was teaching us randori in ground fighting situations during the instructor’s class.

In regards to the traditional kata, there are some that do contain techniques that might be considered ground fighting, but these are mainly the jujutsu and jutaijutsu arts.

For ninjutsu per se, I feel that one reason we don’t see very much of it in the classical training is that is was not a high priority at that time. Just like today, we don’t see BJJ doing much work against a sword.

Muramatsu, a Bujinkan instructor in Japan has a very interesting set of ground fighting techniques and kamae that he teaches as part of his MyoFu An system.

JIGOKU
4th October 2002, 20:30
"Stefan, it is still done in Japan. My instructor and half my dojo go to Japan 2-3 times a year and randori is still used, just not as much."


Janty you speak of second hand information, sorry... I`ve been to Japan quite a few times and stayed also sometimes longer then just the today average "2 weeks"-bujin-tourist (nothing wrong with that!)
So I KNOW that there is no such thing as randori, there are teachers like nagase shihan or nakadai shihan who do some form of "free attack" "free respond" but not as it was done back in the old days.......................................



"Also, a lot of times people speak as if every Bujinkan dojo is the same."

I didnt want to make the impression that i put all the dojo in one pot. sorry for this misunderstanding !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Tengu
4th October 2002, 21:02
Originally posted by vadrip
Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj? Does Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu have in depth tachiwaza comparable to say, ninjutsu?

The focus of ancient martial arts is different than the focus of modern sport-based arts, even those that have been developed in the "no-holds-barred" environment.

I do believe that everyone should be familiar with BJJ newaza, because it is a very predominant style of fighting these days. And I don't mean looking at pictures in books, I mean grappling with people who know how to use it.

If you're not used to BJJ and you play by their rules, you might just surprise yourself by getting tapped out rather quickly.

But, make them play by OUR rules and you have a different story. Playing BJJ or judo by our rules opens up all kinds of suki in their defenses. For fun, throw in a rubber knife and see what happens. Experiment with it, BJJ is REALLY FUN!

Oh yeah, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory & Technique by Renzo Gracie and Royler Gracie is out, and I found it to be a really excellent reference book on the basics of their style of newaza. It's printed on really nice paper too.

Honestly though, the whole "newaza in ninjutsu" horse has been beaten to death.

You can do a search and find past threads on the same topic, on different occasions.

The Tengu
4th October 2002, 21:56
Originally posted by Shojin
About the old Knife in groundfighting idea. I agree it is interesting, also very interesting to see what happens to a non-BJJ player when the BJJ man has the knife. The non-BJJ man STILL can't get loose, STILL gets submitted, and NOW he has to deal with a knife too!:eek:

Also the moral/legal implications of using a knife on someone because they tackled you well... All to avoid what? Learning how to fight on the ground because it is not in your system? think about it...I had a discussion over the phone with a Bujinkan sandan about groundfighting, and he kept falling back on his Spyderco. Well dude, what about if you left it on your dresser? What about when you extend to cut and end up in juji gatame and now the BJJ guy has the knife? What about.... but I didn't get into it with him simply out of respect.

At the same time, if you know how to use a knife against a BJJ player, they are at a serious disadvantage as long as they are holding you in dojime.

Would I use a knife on a guy in my neigborhood who was wrestling with me? Probably not. It depends on whether my life was in danger or not.

The reason I brought the subject up is because recently I was working on this same subject with an Army guy who told me that I wouldn't be able to get to my knife when he pulled me closer into his guard. Well, he pulled me in closer, I put a boshiken in his windpipe, he extended back out for the shrimp & bar, I retract my arm in and bam. There's the knife in my other hand, right by his kidney. I'm sure Royce or Royler might have whooped my ass in the same situation, but my point is about being familiar with the BJJ common responses.

Just to be clear, this was from more of a combat perspective, rather than a "normal" self-defense situation. They are teaching BJJ-style newaza in the new Army Combatives, after all.

This is not a Matt Larsen dis.

The Tengu
4th October 2002, 22:49
Originally posted by Shojin
BTW, MR. Chan, I am not trying to sound challenging to your posts or opinions. i am just responding to some points that happen to be in your posts. I just don't know if this was clear. Got to be careful on these boards ya know ;)

Also BTW, a Knife changes EVERYTHING in any situation! :)

And after you (people that is) learn how not to be caught by them and how they play the game, then as Ninpo people you should see MANY holes in their approach...

Sometimes people are actually able to see the holes, but unable to actualize what they "know" this is where the sweat and hard work come in. Mat time!Sure, I didn't think you were challenging me in the first place. I think we are in agreement, actually. This is supposed to be a discussion board, right?:look:

Judo, BJJ are sports. So, what I'm saying is learn the rules. Then work on breaking the rules. Then you can use that knowledge to break their technique. With or without a knife.

But like anything else in the martial arts, you will not gain the knowledge if you don't practice.

Onmitsu
4th October 2002, 23:31
I liked the video and I believe Newaza training has plenty of merit.
I want to point out however that I for one would not want to go toe to toe or on the ground with any twenty something year old guy in a 'real' street situation. I would do whatever was neccessary to get untangled and high tail it out of the area. Escaping from BJJ style holds in this instance would be very valuable. There's the rub. How much time do you devote to this type of training knowing that when it really counts you are not going to 'go for the submit' but rather escape and call the cops?

The Tengu
5th October 2002, 03:28
Originally posted by Onmitsu
I liked the video and I believe Newaza training has plenty of merit.
I want to point out however that I for one would not want to go toe to toe or on the ground with any twenty something year old guy in a 'real' street situation. I would do whatever was neccessary to get untangled and high tail it out of the area. Escaping from BJJ style holds in this instance would be very valuable. There's the rub. How much time do you devote to this type of training knowing that when it really counts you are not going to 'go for the submit' but rather escape and call the cops? At our dojo, we train in newaza once a week. Practically every Friday we go through kihon happo, and then the basic groundfighting drills. And then we either work on new techniques from the ground, or we do two-minute newaza matches.

If you are honestly very concerned about the BJJ/MMA types out there, I would say that you should at least train IN THEIR martial art to a level of basic proficiency (i.e. learning the mount, escaping the mount, guard, passing the guard, armbars, sweeps, chokes, etc.).

If you've never trained in BJJ, you will probably be very surprised at how different from taijutsu it really is. You will probably also be surprised at how often you will develop openings for BJJ-style attacks in your taijutsu. However, I try to keep in mind that going from taijutsu to BJJ is almost always counterproductive unless something goes wrong, like you lose your balance for some reason.

shinbushi
5th October 2002, 21:05
Every Thursday I have 2 newaza classes all taijutsu based. 1 hour waza 30 min randori.
The waza is all taijutsu. We even just had Tim Bathurst in for a seminar in July and the friday workshop was all newaza. here (http://www.taijutsu.com/realaudio/rm3.htm) is an example waza.

R Erman
7th October 2002, 21:27
Originally posted by Shojin


Best advice would be don't be so worried that it be all "taijutsu" instead be worried that it is EFFECTIVE! It is our responsibility as instructors to give people something that won't breakdown when their life is on the line. Too many people worry (not saying you Dave) what their associates would think, trying to keep it "ninpo" or taijutsu at the expense of reality.



Something to add to this, taijutsu and jujutsu are two words for the same thing, we all know this. The point is, good jujutsu is good jujutsu. It doesn't matter if it's classical, modern, or jujutsu-derived(such as judo or sambo). You can do waza from kesa gatame, yoko shiho, tate shiho...etc, and it's still taijutsu. Just because it isn't in the Tenchijin doesn't mean it's not "taijutsu".

We study a form(s) of classical jujutsu/taijutsu. Aspects of which are both from the sengoku and edo periods. I'm proud of that heritage. But that doesn't mean I won't look at gendai systems that have applied the same principles we use to newaza. Whether it's judo, sambo, bjj, these systems have been working on and perfecting newaza for decades, it would be ridiculous to try to reinvent the wheel when we can study/cross-train in these systems and cover alot of ground very quickly.

Oni
7th October 2002, 21:52
I have a question to those of you that have been involved with BJJ and BJJ practitioners. How likely is it that you would end up being 'attacked' by someone that is really good at BJJ? I know most martial artists that I have met and been involved with are not (or no longer if they were before MA) the kind of folks that go out and attack people. In the encounters I have personally had, witnessed, or had to assist with (used to work at a night club in my youth ;)) they were rarely of a very 'skilled' nature.

I am not dissing the value of becoming familiar with these concepts...just wondering at which is more likely...dealing with a skilled BJJ person...or dealing with the not so skilled brute attacker.

Now to add to this before I get answers...I do KNOW that there ARE some areas where BJJ is practiced by various gang members and other likely attackers...I would say that this is somewhat regional and may not reflect the 'average' school of BJJ or BJJ practitioner.

Thanks for your input.

BTW...just how long does it take to make blue belt in BJJ?

Jay Bell
7th October 2002, 22:35
BTW...just how long does it take to make blue belt in BJJ?

I've seen some that have been in a decade that are blue belts. Many BJJ'ers from the old school I trained at concentrated on fighting, not so much on rank. My old teacher was a black belt who just received it after 12 years due to competition focus.

Swinger
7th October 2002, 23:35
http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/akabusi/1049/0c074260.gif

R Erman
7th October 2002, 23:43
Michael,

I think there is a pretty good chance of being attacked by someone at least familiar with groundwork nowadays.

There are a lot of very aggresive youths who are studying submission grappling and MMA. Most of these "kids" have a HS wrestling background and have a tendency to excell very quickly. I know this from experience as a good friend of mine runs a MMA school where most of his classes are focussed around boxing, thai, greco, and BJJ--this is the most common recipe for MMA. He also teaches a self-defense oriented class for those who aren't up to the intensity of the other class, but it is more of an auxillary class.

Anyway, his best student, in terms of performance, has only been with him for about six months. But, this student has an extensive background in wrestling, both HS and collegiate. He seems to be a good kid, and my friend is a little more conscientious in instilling a basic moral/ethical compass than most MMA schools, but there are others around our area who are not so responsible.

So, if you look at the reality of hot-headed individuals training regularly to take a person quickly off their feet and to the ground, the idea of becoming "familiar" with the concepts may not cut it--especially amongst younger age groups.

To be honest, is a shoot to a double leg takedown as common as a haymaker? Probably not, but it may not be as rare as many think.

shinbushi
8th October 2002, 01:59
Originally posted by Shojin


1. The "uke" first of all is a rag doll. No reason for that unless it's the VERY first few times a new technique is taught, after that the "uke" has to fight back even if it's slow... (I'll get back to that)

This was not an ‘alive’ drill more of a newaza kata. And like all kata are done against a cooperative opponent. We do more drills against resisting opponents like. Mount escapes including bridging, knee and elbow etc. This was to show the others on the forum a waza that is based off one that was done in Japan. The actual waza was against a judo pin but, that student was having too much trouble with that pin. (those who were at Tim’s seminar this time will know which one I mean). I should redo the vid as that student can now do it. I wanted to (And still do) want to put up a non- BJJ looking waza to show some differences as opposed to doing Onikudaki from the mount (Read key-lock).


3. What kind of hold down is that? This goes back to what I was talking about before, to untrained people it "looks" like BJJ maybe, but it is NOT! The guy on top with one arm under far leg, and other under the neck trying to clasp hands? it's a rotten hold down lol! It does not follow the basic principals of correct effective hold downs.

I’ll admit that my student on top was doing a bad side control. I wanted one of my Greco guys to be there for the vid but the day I had the digital camera, they were not there.

Just as a side note as I am in the Mecca of BJJ (Torrance CA), with The Machados down the street, the Gracie Academy down another and Cacique Grace within 5-miles, I have several ex-BJJ students as well as guys with Greco and Freestyle experience. They like our Randori because after 5th Kyû they can use hard contact strikes as opposed to BJJ, which is grappling only.
Lastly though being a Bujinkan school and not competition oriented 2 years ago we had 2 students enter the Machado open grappling tournament. (They begged me to let them enter). They were brothers one in High school and the other in college. Both were 7th Kyûs . The younger one entered and got 2nd for his white belt in his division. The other one entered as a purple as he wanted to be able to do ankle locks. He lost on points as time ran out. He was not going for points, only submission. The other was clearly going for points and not trying to submit. My student almost got DQ’ed 4 times. One for a claw-like choke from the guard, one for illegal knee bar which he had on and last a kick/push-off to the head to escape a lock. He lost points for each one. Hey I explained the rules to him before hand but… some people just don’t listen.

I do plan to go to Matt’s seminar to help me extract the applications from Bujinkan waza but I do have a clue on groundfighting. I personally do need more work though

shinbushi
8th October 2002, 02:34
Originally posted by Shojin
Hi David thank you for the reply. I do respect you we have talked as you know on things and like I said, I respect your spirit and desire to develop yourself and your students. I do know that you have some experience in groundfighting. I was just commenting on the video.
David, in my opinion, Ninpo is light years beyond BJJ in so many ways.

Everything we need is there and more. It is up to us to figure it out as needed. I think you going to Matt's seminar is so great an Idea, you will be very impressed, but as it sounds like you already plan on doing, remember your a spy, and as impressive as it may be, once you get the keys, you will unlock all the answers already there in Ninpo/Budo Taijutsu!

Once again, BJJ is tough, and I do belive we need to learn their game to a point, but man, come on... Ninpo is totally cherry dude! :D LOL!

Best,

The respect is mutual :)
Just letting you know the purpose of the clip and where I was coming from.
Next time I am going to have to have one of my better grapplers do the pin. But it is hard to capture clips of waza on a digital camera (not video camera) the vid feature is short. This was like the 5th take. :) I should have looked at it again before I posted it :(

Oni
8th October 2002, 04:09
Originally posted by Shojin
Uke is a great target Gassho,


Uhmm...

That was spozed to be uko you know kubi.. Opps..

Anyway..

I don't know...uke being good targets has its merit as well ;)

BTW...I have enjoyed this thread!

John Lindsey
8th October 2002, 05:51
Guys and Gals,

You might want to check out our new "spotlight on Budo" forum guests and see if you have any questions.

Swinger
8th October 2002, 06:51
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Guys and Gals,

You might want to check out our new "spotlight on Budo" forum guests and see if you have any questions.

While it does look like a good book, is that forum a paid endorsement / advertisement or did you just like the book so much you decided to give them a forum?

Also if Brazillian jiujutsu is now being covered how about a Gendai Budo Forum to cover K1, Pride GP, Shooto, Pancrase, UFC-J, FN Rings and Japanese MMA in general. Now that interest and participation of MMA so outways that of any other form of Martial Arts it seems strange that it is not covered.

Just an idea.

John Lindsey
8th October 2002, 07:07
I don't make a dime off of this site and never have taken money from the book authors. Some of them have been nice to send me a copy, but thats about it.

I don't run this site to make money and actually spend lots of it each month to keep it going... because I like it.

I offer any author the same deal. They can run a forum here if they want, and if I think their book has merit. This one does.

John Lindsey
8th October 2002, 07:09
As for your idea, the best way to get a new forum is for someone with experience and interest in such a subject to step forward and be a moderator. I can always give new forums a chance...

The Tengu
8th October 2002, 14:58
Originally posted by Oni
I have a question to those of you that have been involved with BJJ and BJJ practitioners. How likely is it that you would end up being 'attacked' by someone that is really good at BJJ? I know most martial artists that I have met and been involved with are not (or no longer if they were before MA) the kind of folks that go out and attack people. In the encounters I have personally had, witnessed, or had to assist with (used to work at a night club in my youth ;)) they were rarely of a very 'skilled' nature.I think one of the reasons it takes such a long time to get "ranked" in BJJ is due to the fact that it is really easy to pick up and use within a relatively short period of time. BJJ has less dimensions than something like taijutsu does. It is also easy for people to just muscle their way through techniques. I sometimes get beaten at the groundfighting thing by guys who are stronger than me because I am physically weaker, and I refuse to train using muscle strength (not that I am strong or anything).

That being said, it's easy to learn enough BJJ to be dangerous in a pretty short period of time. They also practice a lot of randori in BJJ because it's the only way to get good at it. Rank in BJJ is earned by how well you handle yourself against other people. Matt Larsen once said his BJJ rank (I think he was a purple belt at the time) meant more to him than his dan rank in other arts because he felt that he definitely knows he earned it.

You don't have to "dedicate" yourself completely to learning BJJ, because you only have to train yourself to a moderate skill level before you can start picking apart the techniques from a taijutsu perspective. But only if you're concerned about it.

People watch TV, people watch crap like the UFC. I was talking to one guy at a video rental store about Tito Ortiz, and hell I know this guy was no martial artist but he knew about the guard, armbars, guillotine, etc. You can REALLY hurt someone with the guillotine (mae hadaka jime), especially if you don't know what you're doing and you don't know the kind of pressure it puts on the neck and trachea.

Ever seen a guy in a "normal" fight put another guy in a headlock and punch him? I bet nobody taught him that in a martial arts class. He probably saw it on WWF, like those 13 kids who killed that guy in Milwaukee.
The Associated Press
MILWAUKEE Oct. 2 — A mob of boys lay in wait for a man before using a TV wrestling move and everything from broomsticks to strollers to bludgeon him to death, according to their confessions to police.

The Tengu
8th October 2002, 18:52
Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
"I think one of the reasons it takes such a long time to get "ranked" in BJJ is due to the fact that it is really easy to pick up and use within a relatively short period of time."

Actually, it doesn't take that long to get ranked in BJJ. Oh, how long does it take to make black belt with the Gracies' system?

Oni
9th October 2002, 00:05
Originally posted by Shojin
Ok,

So last night, while trying to do pure BJJ escapes from kesa, and being given a hard time, I used the concept of attacking a weak-point under the bridge of the nose, and he had to react (not being on drugs and being normal) when he did, he opened up his kamae, I then used basic BJJ escapes, modified slightly for my Ninpo purposes of getting up and away instead of wrestling.


Gassho,

Nice post Richard. From my own recent exploration I particular appreciate and agree with the above point. It is very easy when playing with these folks to get caught up in their 'game' so to speak. I definitely know that in playing with my BJJ friend that there were opportunities to escape, but did not...or did not do so in a manner that I normally would have due to the 'rules' we had established in the exploration.

One thing I discovered was that it was much harder to deal with the initial 'shoot' from the BJJ approach than I had figured. Many of the concepts that work with a more rodeo/football style tackle definitely did not work for me in the same manner. Anyone want to offer any comments/experiences/tips on this? Most of the escapes/defenses I have worked for these involve getting offline to a point and striking with knees, hammering the back of the head, slamming the head down, etc. The guy I worked with would not commit unless he was able to get a hold of a hand or part of my gi and scoop the leg. This was easy to fend off with basic tehodoki concepts...but did not 'stop' the situation...merely prolonged it. I was able to get in some good shots at these points, but I still didn't feel as if they alone would have stopped things.

The Tengu
12th October 2002, 06:01
Fancy kamae don't work against the shoot.

Video Clip (http://www.karate-kids.com/sumovskarate.mpg)

JIGOKU
16th October 2002, 11:54
well guys

to find a term for things like shooto, vale tudo, bjj, I want to use in the following the term "submission fighting"..
we just had a seminar in our dojo with one of the "dog brothers" (the only european one), yes the guys with the sticks and the main subject of the seminar was groundfighting, as in the bujinkan ryu-ha ther isnt any explicit ground fighting KATA..
I think its absolutely essential for a budoka/martial artist to get skill into groundfighting...
what made the whole seminar so special was the fact that every groundfighting technique was also practised in the situation when both or only one of the fighters would have a weapon..........

concerning groundfighting: I think its enough to train in few things:

1. how to shoot in, some basic takedowns
3. the L step and the sprawl as counter (as already explained by shojin)
2. the mount, the guard and side position (using upa drill)
3. the arm bar from 2/3 situations, ude garami, kimura
4. 2 chockes and the guilliotine
5. 2 leg locks

and then sparring and sparrin and sparring just using these elements
then adding strikes into your training ( open hand)...well this is something that bujinkan people often overestimate:
he takes me to the ground I will use my "effective" dakentaijutsu skills..well its harder then you might think....

after you get used to the new enviroment, start adding your taijutsu knowledge, add different weapons, hanbo/tanbo, knife, gun
kive already drawn or still in your belt/holster.....
well the possibilites are infinite.....
I am just convinced that its one aspect of arts like the bujinkan to flow with the time and intergrate new aspects to your training

respectfully