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Amphinon
4th October 2002, 14:07
Here is a situation I would like you to put yourself into...

You are a teacher of a small school that has had a history, tradition , and quality for a number of years and you are well respected in the martial arts community.

You don't have contracts, you don't charge a lot of money, you donate part of your dues to local churches you teach at.

One day, you are approached by an instructor of a chain dojo and he/she informs you that they are accepting a position in a major corporation in a different city and they want to sell you their school.

If you accept, you will gain 200 paying student each shelling out $75 a month with a two year contract. The building is paid for, and a regular ranking date happens every 2 months where 30 people pay $30 each to test. You are looking at $370,800 right there for two years.

1. What questions would you have before making a decision?
2. What would you decide?
3. Why would you decide that?

Goju-Ryu
4th October 2002, 16:25
Amphinon did that happened to you, and you're trying to see what's the more erasonable choice?? ;)

I think I would deny the proposal, because I don't see martial arts teaching as a way of getting rich...
Here in Portugal we don't have that type of "chain dojos", what I see as a very good thing, otherwise martial arts would be like "fast-food restaurants" and dojos would have a sign over their door saying: "McKarate" or "Kentucky Fried Budo" :D ~

One question: "Would be that dojo a "ranking-machine"? Ranking exams every 2 months?
:rolleyes:

Why should I move if I've been so fine over those past years in the actual dojo?

Anyway there are many things you should take in count, such as the credibility of that "chain dojo", your goals in the martial arts world, is that type of teaching supporting your martial art principles?

I think it's better to have less and good that many and bad...

Amphinon
4th October 2002, 16:30
This did not happen to me like I described it. I added to it to drum up a discussion about how much money would it take for someone to sell out...

mushinmaster
4th October 2002, 20:22
As soon as the dude said anything about martial arts and the money, I'd pretty much stop listening to him.

Sell out? Materialism should mean little in the dojo, if anything. The dojo is about the do, not the $$ dollars.

Amphinon
4th October 2002, 21:19
Nice motto...

Senjojutsu
4th October 2002, 21:42
Well - the trouble is what is his asking (selling) price, thus what is your projected net profit after expenses?

The Devil to Homer Simpson:
Homer would you sell your soul to me for a keg of beer?

Homer: It depends.
The Devil: On What?

Homer: What type of beer?
:beer:

Hypothetical example?

A legitimate martial artist (as an optimist) would need to factor how much control he would have at the new dojo versus the chain?

If he was captain of his own ship - then in six months to a year he could make his place "respectable" through changes of curriculum, training techniques, testing etc...

Is that selling out in your world?

Do not think variations of this do not happen.
More often it is not about money - it is that after younger instructors after having ten, fifteen or twenty years of tutelage have a major schism with the chain's "grandmaster".

It is like a divorce - bad feelings on both sides.

The dojo students are like the children.


Signed: A child of martial arts divorce (twice).

Goju Man
6th October 2002, 02:01
You know the all mighty dollar rules these days. I have recently seen the sale of a successful dojo to a student of the same. It's almost like day care with a karate atmosphere. (just barely) I can't beleive how the quality of instruction has declined. But hey, the dojo is making money. I cannot operate that way. I teach a couple of kids privately at my own gym. I don't teach for money. I have a student who has learned more in two months than many kids with a year under their belt. True I don't have thirty kids to teach, but then again, I want to teach and not babysit.

mushinmaster
6th October 2002, 20:05
Goju Man is right. I won't even walk into a McDojo. It's crap. If you're affiliated, I'm immediatly questioning your motives. Maybe you just haven't been around that long - don't know. The best teachers I know operate independantly and for lights and heat. If that shits the bed, then they'd do it just to keep training, in their basement or something.

The biggest dojo I've stepped into in the last two years is the Army Judo one - and I know they don't care about money.

The traditional dojo is in decline, big time.

What was it - backyard and basement dojos? Wasn't that a thread b4? That is where the martial arts will survive unchanged by commercialism - besides Army Judo:D. Peace.

fuwafuwausagi
8th October 2002, 01:30
Well it is fairly simple for me. I am pushing 40, my anticipated lifespan is about half over, and the deteriotation has set in. With this perspective and fully realizing my own mortality I am proud to say I haven't ever really sold out my beliefs before. I really don't see that changing. How I feel about myself is far more important than $$ to me.

TFB

mushinmaster
8th October 2002, 16:19
word.

Amphinon
8th October 2002, 17:03
Would you (try to) seperate your serious training from your money making, try to combine them, or not even try because you believe that both will suffer?

Steve C
8th October 2002, 17:23
Interesting stuff, guys.

A question; How old is the tradition of 'traditional' dojo's with only a small handful of students? And where does it come from?

Thinking back in the longer term, were japanese kenjitsu schools severly number-limited? How much money did the masters there take? I'm just trying to find out - was there a time and place when most martial teaching happened with one master to one or two students, or have there always been bigger and smaller groups training side-by-side?

How do organisations like the army, who have to train large numbers of fighters - deal with the problem of 'dilution' - where many students and few teachers lead to low quality?

Yours,

Steve

Amphinon
8th October 2002, 18:16
I can't speak from a military aspect, but I think that Boot Camp sets the tone for how the military trains their soldiers.

As far as the small school, it is 35 years old and it is a Japanese MA.

Mitch Saret
8th October 2002, 18:23
I am sure we all agree that watered down martial arts suck....and that the McDojo type of system only perpetuates that.

The question I have is: why is it considered selling out if you want to make a living doing what you love?

Further: Why does money=bad martial arts?

Any other profession, if you were to pass on your knowledge and train individuals, or a class, with those skills, you would be compensated.
The old masters everyone are so fond of passed on their skills for compensation. It may not have been straight money, as we do these days, but with other forms of barter. Food, for one, work on their homes for another. And yes, they took money, of a sort, when they could. Some of these ancient masters made a pretty good living.

That must have been wrong, I guess.

Goju Man
9th October 2002, 01:18
Mitch, the problem today is not many want to do what it takes, hard training. In the seventies, we had much more hard core students. Many times, bloody lips, noses, and such were quite common at times. We are now in a different time where that type of student is harder to come by. Everyone wants the "secrets" still beleiving that there is a magical touch. I think this comes about from the whole rank=knoledge and proficiency. Example, a guy walks into a dojo, the instructor weighs about three hundred fifty pounds and will not be winning the Mr. Olympia contest anytime soon. This poor guy figures that if this out of shape instructor has a blankth dan, he must know the secrets, or obviously he would look like a fighter. Where's the short cut?

Being an ex military guy, guys that are in special forces are the hard core guys, most of which already have some experience. They are also very physically fit. You fighters out there know it does make a difference.

Mitch Saret
9th October 2002, 04:11
Manny,

We agree on that. I was just down the road from SF...being 82D Airborne. Back then, I was in top shape. That was 20 years ago. Now I am over 40, was diagnosed with MS 4 1/2 years ago, and in the last 2 weeks seem to have gout in my left big toe! Talk about a pain!

The point is, up until my diagnosis I was in pretty good shape. Now I need to lose about 40 lbs. I still teach 6 days a week. When I can, I do the calesthenics, but not nearly often enough. I was just part of a weekend where I did a 45 minute ground work class and it was well received. My being out of shape does not diminish my quality of instruction...in someways it enhanced it. I have had to think about my explanations more, going into more detail. Sometimes I realize I left something out because I just simply "do it" out of habit. No apologies to NIKE.:D

To get those of us we refer to as the one percenters, is it not better to bring them in gradually, get them to enjoy the martial arts before we get them to enjoy a bloody lip or nose?

When I first started in judo, it was 1 1/2 years before the first test for green belt. Over half dropped out. We say we don't really care about rank, but we, as humans, need some sort of gratification. In judo now you can test in a few months. You will have several other colors to go through but in 1 1/2 years you still test for green belt. Nothing watered down, just a few steps in between.

In the military you don't go to Ranger, Special Forces, or even Airborne training first thing. You do basic and AIT first. You even get another physical for jump school, couldn't tell you about the others.

Getting back to the original point, however, my two questions stand.

1) Why is it considered selling out to make a living doing what you love?

2) Why does money = bad martial arts?

mushinmaster
9th October 2002, 13:03
Money for instruction doesn't always mean you've sold out - but it does lead to bad martial arts and selling out. Martial arts is a tough business to make money in, I've seen it first hand. When people struggle to make money is when problems occur.

Contracts
Inflated tuition
Testing Fees
Money off MA supplies
**Using students as teachers**

When teachers begin to feel the pinch, and start using their students as teachers, many problems arise. McDojos, watered down instruction, people not knowing what they are doing, unprofessionalism, students problems arise (social issues).

When it becomes about the $$, and not about the do, then its a problem

don't forget

insurance issues
lawsuits
fear of loosing students, b/c loose $$

Another great source of McDojo qualities is fear of insurance, causing instructors to be easy on their students, as with fear of loosing students. Students become $$ and not pupils. This breeches the traditional student/teacher relationship the martial arts have become so admired off.

also this environment creates a feeling in the dojo of, once I become a teacher, I know it all - they are using me to teach, so I must be damn good. This downplays advancement of true learning in the dojo, b/c once you reach a red or black belt, you teach. Also this can create schism in the dojo, hurting students and teachers alike.

I seriously think I could write a book on the issue, but my Computer Science instructor wants me to write some loops right now!!

Amphinon
9th October 2002, 13:13
That made a lot of sense.

My question stil remains for you, mushinmaster...

Would you become an instructor teaching for $$ if you were not before?

Margaret Lo
9th October 2002, 18:57
Originally posted by Amphinon
Here is a situation I would like you to put yourself into...

You are a teacher of a small school that has had a history, tradition , and quality for a number of years and you are well respected in the martial arts community.

You don't have contracts, you don't charge a lot of money, you donate part of your dues to local churches you teach at.

One day, you are approached by an instructor of a chain dojo and he/she informs you that they are accepting a position in a major corporation in a different city and they want to sell you their school.

If you accept, you will gain 200 paying student each shelling out $75 a month with a two year contract. The building is paid for, and a regular ranking date happens every 2 months where 30 people pay $30 each to test. You are looking at $370,800 right there for two years.

1. What questions would you have before making a decision?
2. What would you decide?
3. Why would you decide that?


It is important to understand what comprises the "chain dojo" in this hypothetical. These are "franchises" which are purchased by a small business owner and operate under a franchise agreement. Franchises are defined to be a business owned by the local owner but run under guidelines set forth by the parent company.

The terms of franchise agreements vary greatly between companies. What is common is that stores are paying for 1) an existing client base, plus 2) the use of commonly recognized brand name which equals guaranteed income. In return for assured income, the small business agrees to give up some control to the needs of the parent corp. What the parent needs is consistency between one Big Mac in Alaska vs. another in Beijing - so McDonalds franchise agreement regulates every dustmote in every store. Other franchises are less onerous in governing the particulars of branch stores but ALL do have consistency in the product they are selling - whether it be food, drink, cosmetics, or shoes.

Martial arts franchises differ from the burger model in that the product is often much less consistent from one place to another. The Fred Villari schools, for example, sold a package of business tips, the name, some uniforms, and organized tournaments within its groups. The rest was up to the local teacher. I understand that schools vary greatly in the actual style of MA taught!!! The Tiger Schulman schools I think are more standardized.

What else is a franchise? All the traditional organizations are also franchises: 1) common product - actually traditional orgs are MORE consistent than commercial groups; 2) financial relationship b/n parent and branch; 3) tournaments within each group.

What is confusing the discussion is the apparent belief that getting a franchise is the same as selling out. The news is, you are already in a franchise if you are part of a large organization. So why pay somebody else to sell out? You can do it to your own already well known traditional style by incorporating low grading standards, getting too many students to teach well, and running lots of baby sitting classes.

Conversely our hypothetical teacher can buy a rich club, impose his better standards and watch the profit margin drop to match his original club.

The fundamental problem for all good traditional MA is simply that the higher your standard of training, the more difficult and painful it becomes - which means the fewer the students you will have and the less profitable your club.

Margaret

Mitch Saret
9th October 2002, 19:43
Mushin...
some good points. I will point out that teaching martial arts in any way, and not being covered by liability insurance is irresponsible...not only to yourself and students, but to your family. All it takes is one injury and the student all of a sudden deciding that respect doesn't involve not having the instructor pay for the injuries. America is a pretty litigous society, and the protection is simply smart.

What about your building? If you teach in your garage or basement your homeowners insurance won't cover training injuries, unless you lie to them, and they believe your story.

Contracts or enrollment agreements have been discussed in other threads, and do not lead to poor instruction in all instances. Rather than can lead to better instruction and commitment on the part of the student. After all, aren't you committing to them? Bad, greedy instructors are bad, greedy instructors no matter the circumstances.

Many arguments both for and against testing fees. I personally only charge a fee for balck belt, and it's the same for each balck belt up the line. Granted,I don't have any students higher than 2nd dan at the moment, but their 3rd will be the same amount as the 1st. No fees for under belts.

What do you consider inflated tuition? Before you answer, think of how much it would take to give up everything you have learned and go back to that point in your life before martial arts. Now we are present day, and you have nothing from the martial arts in your life. How much would you pay to have that all back? If you can write out an amount I would be surprised. If that is indeed the case, and there is no amount, why should such quality training be cheap? I am not saying it should be out of reach, but if it's a premium service, why not get a premium price?

Selling martial arts supplies and making a profit? That's bad? Should the student go to SportMart, Wal-Mart, or even Sears and give them the money rather than their instructor? Wouldn't that qualify as a bad student? Now let's say you get your supplies from Century. What's wrong with selling at the catalog price? It provides for a not unreasonable profit, and the prices are appropriate. You could even discount quite a bit and still come out ahead?

The point is if you look at operating a school as a business, you can still provide a quality product and make a decent living. If you accept any money for lessons, any money, you are a commercial school by definition. It doesn't matter if it's just for lights and heat, you accept money. If you do not operate as a business, even if it's only part time, you are doing a disservice to yourself and family, and possibly even your students.

Money can lead to bad budo we agree, but it doesn't equate to bad
budo.

The two questions still stand-
1)Why is it cosidered selling out to make a living doing what you love?
2)Why does money = bad martial arts?

Goju Man
10th October 2002, 01:18
Mitch, I don't think teaching and charging for services is a bad thing. When your ultimate driving force is quality instruction. The way things are today, sometimes you might have to compromise certain parts of your training and rank structure to make money. Take jiujitsu, for example. You can go all you like, you may aquire some rank, but you won't receive a blue belt if you're not at that level. I see black belt promotions that are not at that level. I have known schools who operate solely for the money. Belts are given out left and right. Now a days, you don't even have to know the terminology anymore. Not that it matters particularly to me, (terminology) but it's basically pay your money, put in the time, get your rank. Ultimately, you're doing your students a disservice. Along with the rank you are giving them, false security is going with it.

mushinmaster
10th October 2002, 05:28
Originally posted by Amphinon
That made a lot of sense.

My question stil remains for you, mushinmaster...

Would you become an instructor teaching for $$ if you were not before?

If there was a way for me to earn a satisfactory living doing MA, and not breech the trainning principles I live by, I would quit USMA right now and become a student/teacher.

I really don't think it's possible to keep the MA the way I believe they should be with money around.

Seriously, Amphion, if some dude came up to me asking me to take part in a MA corporation, I'd laugh him in the face and walk away. Then again, I'm not you - I'm 18 and a freshman in college with a big career in front of me. I don't really care about spreading anything, I just wanna train.

Mitch dude, I've been there. I in taught and was paid by my first dojang when I was the wee-age of 15. Saw all the insurance issues, problems with payments, what being in an organization means, etc first hand.

I can see where there is a pro to contracts.

Why have tests? No tests, no fees. I believe instruction should be personal enough so that you know when a student has reached a level, if you feel like having rank, anyway. Why not just give it to them and keep on training? Works only in the ideal tiny-school environment, I know. Perhaps getting out of that environment is the first mistake most owners make.

Inflated tuition - well, first of all, I believe in this Japanese concept of on - a debt, obligation, favor, or burden you carry around b/c someone has done something for you. I don't think you can pay for the gifts of training with dough. Other payments are necessary. Most teachers just want someone to teach and train with anyway - at least the ones after the do. It's hard for me to give examples of "other payments" that are worth more than money, but one example is the agreement between my instructor and me - I go to school, learn to defend my country, serve my country, and he supplements my training whenever possible. I don't pay him a dime. BUT I repay my on to him everytime my roomate is sleeping and I'm up studying or working out, everytime I wake up early to workout - everytime I give my all in my training, everytime all the other cadets are just chillin' and having fun, and I've got my nose buried in a book. Just having his picture on my desk makes me remember what I owe him everyday, and ensures I live up to my on.

If you're selling supplies to students at prices above what you get it for, I see it as cheating the students - trying to squeeze every dollar out of them you can. Maybe it's different where you all are from?


The point is if you look at operating a school as a business, you can still provide a quality product and make a decent living. If you accept any money for lessons, any money, you are a commercial school by definition. It doesn't matter if it's just for lights and heat, you accept money. If you do not operate as a business, even if it's only part time, you are doing a disservice to yourself and family, and possibly even your students.

Money can lead to bad budo we agree, but it doesn't equate to bad
budo.

Maybe you can, the way you want to. So can all those other dojos out there. I know that if I wanted to operate a school, I would be operating in a deficit the entire time. Not b/c I couldn't run a business, but b/c I wouldn't make any "comprimises", as Goju put it, for the sake of my business.

In my hometown there are three models of dojos -

1. The commercial school that went under

2. The commercial school that sold the product better and is always in danger of going under

3. The commercial school whose owner is a millionare and operates it the way he wants not the way consumer Bob wants (no "comprimise"), I would speculate, in an economic deficit all the time - a dojo the average Joe wouldn't be able to maintain. It's the best damn dojo I've ever walked into.

No money doesn't equate bad budo, like I said, but it just about always does.