PDA

View Full Version : Commitment



Gary Dolce
5th October 2002, 20:10
Gassho,

The lengthy (never-ending?) thread about cross-training raises another related question - How much commitment should a teacher ask or expect of his or her students? I was thinking about this in part as a result of the quote attributed to Mizuno Sensei about being a full-time teacher and expecting full-time students. Is it completely reasonable for a teacher to expect the same level of commitment from his or her students as the teacher has?

Expecting them not to cross-train might be one example of commitment, but since we have beaten that to death elsewhere, let me bring up a simpler case - expecting a certain attendance level. Do any of the Branch Masters out there require a certain level of attendance to start or continue practice? How do you deal with cases of minimal or sporadic attendance - e.g., the student who comes so seldom that they don't make progress or the student who disapears for long periods, often right when something is expected of them, and then reappears later? Does the level of commitment you ask for change as students advance?

Gary

Sammy Briggs
5th October 2002, 21:21
Dolce Sensei,

That's a difficult question to answer. As with the cross training thread, there's a lot of different angles to consider. Here in the US (at least LA), most teachers probably expect a serious commitment to the art, however this is rarely achieved. Look at the drop out rate at most dojo. How many students continue training at the dojo for over three months? Probably not many. And of those that do, how many actually train hard enough to be able to pass on the art? Fewer still. It seems that most teachers deal with this by passing on the real meanings of the techniques to those who have demonstrated their commitment to the art. Why take the time explaining things to someone who won't appreciate it?

I believe that in order to benefit from any martial art, you have to make the commitment to train seriously at least three times a week (whether its at the dojo or training at home). Not just showing up at the dojo and going through the motions, but actually putting your heart into the practice. Unfortunately most people come to LA to seek out fame and fortune in the film or music industry. In a city where the job market is so competitive, people are more interested in their own self promotion and are rarely able to commit themselves to the time or energy necessary to the serious pursuit of Shorinji Kempo or any other martial art.

But is this any different than the working man who has to be at his job ten hours each day and then spends the rest of his waking hours with his wife and kids. I guess in today's age fast food, credit cards and instant gratification, it is difficult for almost anyone to be able to make a long term commitment to seriously training in the martial arts. Lets face it, modern society doesn't promote the virtues of patience and dedication, or the philosophy that good things are worth waiting for.

Maybe in the end it simply comes down to what the student intends to get out of his training. Obviously, not everyone in the dojo can be expected to train with the commitment necessary in order to pass on the art. Perhaps a teacher should expect a commitment after he sees what the student is capable of.

Dolce Sensei: Although many years your junior, I hope you don't take offense to me stating my opinions to the questions you raised.

Sammy Briggs

Tripitaka of AA
6th October 2002, 21:32
Originally posted by Sammy Briggs
Dolce Sensei: Although many years your junior, I hope you don't take offense to me stating my opinions to the questions you raised.

Sammy Briggs


Doubtful that he would take offense... except for reminding him of his age;) (I'm guessing that he would wish he was younger. I know I do.)

I enjoyed the post Sammy. I really do like to see as many different names on the by-line as possible. I think your description of the high drop out rate and frustration of wasting time on students who don't last very long, will be familiar to any Branch Master, not just the one in TinselTown :) .

Gary Dolce
7th October 2002, 01:03
Sammy,

Gassho,

Thanks for your comments. Of course I don't take offense at your stating your opinions here. Your opinions are welcome, otherwise I wouldn't have posted the question here.

I agree with your comments - especially the one about first seeing what the student is capable of. Personally, I don't expect a lot of commitment in the beginning. But I sometimes wonder whether I should require more. For example, prospective students often ask me if they can practice just once a week (we offer three practice per week). In my experience, once-a-week beginners never stick around more than a couple of months. They get frustrated that they never make any progress and sometimes the rest of the Branch gets frustrated at having to re-teach them the same things every practice. Would it be better to just say no to once-a-week beginners, or does that cut off the potential exception - the student who gets so excited by it that he or she finds a way to practice more and move ahead?

Gary

BTW - Please don't refer to me as Sensei here - I think we are all better off on this forum not using titles or "pulling rank" on each other.

Kimpatsu
7th October 2002, 01:12
It occurs to me that if Anders Sensei had allowed just one more post on the controversial cross-training thread, we would have reached the magical 100 posts mark. Oh, well...

meat
7th October 2002, 02:36
Hi guys, I'm actually a jujutsuka myself, but i was having a look through your section and found some interesting questions. Gary, the problem that you ask about seems to be common in any style in any place in the world. The dojo that i train at seems to have about an 80% drop out rate in the first three months.
As for those students that only want to come once a week, why not let them for a couple of months? If after that, they want to continue, let them know whats expected of them in training hours. If they can't turn up to class more than once a week, give them homework to do or something like that. If they want to be non committal(is that a word?) after that time, let them go.
As far as cross training goes, it depends. If its a junior student and the dojo is open 4 or 5 days a week, then the teacher should expect the student not to cross train. However, if it is a committed intermediate or advanced student, who knows their stuff, then i think it's unreasonable to expect them not to cross train. FWIW

David Dunn
7th October 2002, 09:59
Gary,
I put the quote up, and it had the wrong effect. Far be it from me to speak for Mizuno Sensei. He said it to me with regard to a specific situation, for which it made perfect sense. It has been taken out of the correct context, which I never made explicit anyway.

To the present question, I don't think there is a fixed answer. Kenshi have to decide on their level of commitment in relation to the rest of their lives. I'd ask the question another way round. Would you prefer to see a kenshi who trained flat out, seven days a week, and then after a year had enough and stopped. Or someone who trained twice a week, year in, year out, attained a high level of competence and became someone who was able to pass on what they have gained?

David Dunn

Jeremy Williams
7th October 2002, 10:35
Hi folks. Regarding the idea of long-term commitment: here in Japan, it seems to be pretty much expected that a good 70 to 80% of kenshi hitting school-leaving age will disappear, even though they may well have been training solidly since knee high to a rice ball. The idea seems to be that they'll go off to university or the company and spend every available moment for the next 4 or 5 years chasing around bars and discos looking for Mr/Ms Right. Having completed this mission, they then usually return, often with kids in tow. There seems to be no resentment of this, and personally I feel it's a very sane and realistic approach. But what is the deal on this in foreign climes? Do foreign senseis get annoyed with such a tendency, assuming there is such over there, or do they just take it in their stride, as here? Would be interested to know...

Jeremy Williams

Kimpatsu
7th October 2002, 11:06
I don't think any sensei object to people who return to training after a long absence, Jeremy; after all, it's really quite heartwarming to see people return to the fold. In my experience, Japanese kenshi keep up their training throughout their university years; it's immediately after, when they become new sarariman, that they tend to quit training because they simply no longer have the time to train--they're in the office until 9:00 pm anyway. Of course, it would be better not to stop, but then this world is far from perfect.
Kesshu.
(Wouldn't be great if we had a gassho rei icon with which to sign off?)

Gary Dolce
7th October 2002, 16:09
Lots of good responses - thanks to all of you!

Sorry if I misused the Mizuno Sensei quote - I didn't know the context and actually only assumed it was a way of saying, "I'm serious about this and I expect you to be, too". So my question was, just how serious can you expect people to be?

To answer David's question, I have seen Kenshi burn out from over-practice and lack of perspective and I think this is a very bad thing. I would much rather have students who practice steadily 2 or 3 times a week for years and who balance practice with the rest of their lives than to have the kind of single-minded student you refer to. To me, the person who can practice a couple of times a week for years shows a huge amount of commitment (by the way, I put myself in this category - after the first few years of practicing 4 times a week, I have averaged about 3 times a week, but I have done it for a long time).

We don't have kids classes, so the question of kids stopping practice at a certain age isn't an issue. All of our Kenshi are adults with varying work and family responsibilities, which limits the amount of commitment they can make. The question is whether or not it is a good idea to put a bottom limit on commitment - to say "If you can't come at least this often, don't bother."

I almost always welcome back people who have been away for awhile. The only exception was a student (adult in age only) who had a habit of practicing for a couple of months, disappearing for as long as a year and then showing up again, only to repeat the process over and over. When I realized that it was a pattern and that the student wasn't being honest with me or with himself about the reasons for it, I finally told he that if he did it again he wouldn't be welcome back. He did and he wasn't.

Gary

Kimpatsu
7th October 2002, 16:12
Dolce Sensei,
Are you a university branch? That makes a difference outside of Japan, I think, because people who are at Uni may study Shorinji Kempo religiously for four years, and then upon graduation move to a part of the country where there's no dojo. That's not a problem in Japan (2,850 branches nationwide now), but in a country as sizeable as America, I can imagine someone living in Tennessee or Nebraska whose nearest branch would be an 8-hour drive away.
Thank you in advance for your time.
Kesshu.

tony leith
7th October 2002, 16:21
Speaking personally, I've gone through phases when I probably had more of myself invested in Kempo than was entirely healthy, given that 1)you will almost certainly have to do something else for a living and that 2) Kempo training is supposed to be cultivating inner resources whioch are of benefit to the world at large, not just ion the microcosm of the dojo.I'd agree with the prevailing opinion on the thread that a reasonable level of commitment sustained over a long period is probably optimal.
There is also the physical side to contend with - when I moved to London from Glasgow and had the opportunity to train with senior instructors on a rgeular basis, I was training 5 or 6 times a week. There has been a lasting benefit in terms of my technique, but if my creaking knee joints had got a vote they might have gone for more moderation..

Tony Leith

Gary Dolce
7th October 2002, 17:22
Tony K,

We are a "city" Branch, not a university Branch, although we are located in college town (University of Michigan). I started in a university Branch (Cornell U.) but after years of fighting with college bureaucracy for space, I decided when I moved and started my own Branch to not affiliate with the local university here. The free or low-cost space just wasn't worth the aggravation!

Over the years we have had a mix of college students, working folks ranging in age from 20's to 50's, and Japanese businessmen working for the auto industry in this area.

"Orphan" Kenshi are a common problem in the US. With less than 30 Branches in North America, most of them on the coasts, it is quite possible to be much farther than an 8 hour drive from the nearest one. I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to regularly commute that kind of distance. But some do find ways to continue their connection to SK and when the opportunity for practice opens up and these people return, they certainly are welcome.

Gary

Sammy Briggs
8th October 2002, 00:24
Somebody from another thread made the observation that all of the really great teachers he knew of had a time in their lives when they studied religiously five or more days a week for about a five to ten year period. I would generally have to agree with this statement. Although whoever posted this (forgot the name), was referring to a different art, I believe this holds true for any martial art.

It's hard to expect this level of commitment, and takes a certain type of personality living under the right circumstances to be able train this way. If everyone could dedicate such a huge chunk of their lives to the art they practice, a "great" teacher may not be such a rarity.

I agree with Gary and think that anyone who is relatively coordinated and physically fit should be expected to make good progress if training two or three days a week. Based on my observations in Aikido, which I have more experience, beginners should plan of training at least three times a week. Any less and it seems that the progress rate is too slow and the student gets burned out from not learning (progressing) enough. Kind of the opposite of over training. A student with slightly above average ability would probably be fine training twice a week as long as they maintain the right attitude. "The person, the person! Everything depends on the quality of the person." (I know, slightly out of context)

What about the commitment level of those teaching the art? I'm sure that a teacher who has a sincere passion for what he teaches/studies will be much more adept at getting new students to absorb the curriculum. If you walk into any dojo, it's easy to see that an enthusiastic teacher will have enthusiastic students.


Sammy Briggs

Jeremy Williams
8th October 2002, 04:35
Sammy Briggs wrote:

"Somebody from another thread made the observation that all of the really great teachers he knew of had a time in their lives when they studied religiously five or more days a week for about a five to ten year period. I would generally have to agree with this statement. Although whoever posted this (forgot the name), was referring to a different art, I believe this holds true for any martial art."

This made me remember some Sensei (sorry, can't remember the name) at the Busen remarking that, when he'd entered the Honbu, he had been surprised at how small the amount of training required was. As he put it, he came to understand that, although the amount of physical training one does is important at one stage (he cited 16 to around 18) in order to transform one's body from that of a youth to that of a seasoned adult, and to internalise the basic movements of the art, at a higher stage, 'quality' of training was more important and productive than mere 'quantity'. He maintained that they had been encouraged to think hard about what they were doing, rather than just enjoying endless repetition.
Personally, as a musician, I can vouch for the validity of this approach to attaining a higher mastery of an art. Bashing a piano or a violin is remarkably similar to SK, in that the mental side outweighs the merely physical by at least 70:30. Blind repetition will get you nowhere past a certain point. You have to think, and that is one of the major teaching aims at most music colleges throughout the world.
So, if one agrees with that sensei, and the analogy with playing an instrument, what implications does that have for how we teach SK? At what stage do we start to say, 'Do less, think more!'? I feel these are important issues, as time is limited for both teacher and student (three score and ten, wasn't it?). If we are to use our training time efficiently, how should we structure it?
I should be interested in your opinions on this.

Jeremy Williams

tony leith
8th October 2002, 11:48
Interesting comments from Jeremy. I'd have thought that there is aa ever a balance to be struck - I remember one of my first instructors saying that the injunction to train regularly didn't mean once evry three months without fail. There is probably an optimum number of times a week to train, which again will vary from person to person. Five or six times a week would seem to me to be asking a lot of your body over a period of years, unless the training regimen was carefully structured to allow adequate recovery time.
Quality of training can make up for a lot. Located where we are in Glasgow, we don't get access to senior instructors all that often. I attended the BSKF Summer Camp this year, and with both Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei being present, got a lot out of it. The rarity of the opportunity seems to sharpen the awareness somewhat... but the regular reinforcement of the 'routine' training sessions is what you need to actually implement what you learn.

Tony Leith

Jeremy Williams
8th October 2002, 12:53
Hi, Tony. You mention that, "the regular reinforcement of the 'routine' training sessions is what you need to actually implement what you learn." Yes, I agree, absolutely. However, I would add that the key point here is to be located in those last three words. If you haven't learned anything new about how to do a particular movement, or if you haven't come up with some new take on it through your own mental effort, then just how useful is repeating that movement another 100 times going to be? (I'm assuming here that one has done enough of it to get the basic idea and muscle coordination/strength/endurance/etc.). I would maintain that, after a given point, one simply has to adopt a radically different approach: the mental one. By 'mental', I mean the, in my opinion, much harder method of deeply analysing such movements and developing clear mental images or goals to aim at in your practise of them. If you have no such clear goals, then how can one aim at them, let alone attain them? It's tough. Certainly a lot more fun, in many ways, to just keep going at it without thinking too much, especially when young and full of pep and vigour. Oh, and when you also have a lot more time to spend in the gym. But, the fact is, if you really want to become a Mizuno or Aosaka, you are most likely going to have to sweat your grey matter as much as, if not more than, all those slow and fast twitch muscle fibres at some point in your SK career. So, how does this relate to a thread on commitment? Well, if you have reached the stage where mental work is essential to further progress, then perhaps a little less time in the gym is the better option. Go, rather, for a few forced hours on a park bench somewhere torturing your brain cells. However, this might appear to be a flagging of commitment, although, in fact, it would constitute quite the reverse.


Jeremy Williams

Jeremy Williams
8th October 2002, 13:01
Hi, Tony. Me again. Sorry, forgot to add that regular reinforcement can also be very much a double edged tool in mastering any complicated physical skill: you reinforce the good, right enough, but you also reinforce the bad. Not so good! Thus the need for clearly defined goals and the absolute necessity of avoiding as much counter-productive repetition as possible. It's a sobering thought, is it not? Certainly makes me reach for the bottle every time I realise I've just repeated something another 1000 times, only to be told I was doing it all wrong. Story of my life, mate, story of my life...

Jeremy Williams

tony leith
8th October 2002, 13:41
Agree completely. When I started training with Mizuno Sensei in London I had to pretty much take my Kempo apart and rebuild it from the ground up. I think the harrowing truth is that we should probably all be doing this all the time - it's always a work in progress. Agree as well that mental effort is involved, though it should be borne in mind that there are different 'learning types', and maybe the verbally and visually orientend would get more out of such contemplation than the kinesic types (unfortunately for me, I'm in the latter camp, so progress in Kempo for me is almost invariably 'hands on'). Nevertheless, the process of mental rehearsing what you've learned is not I think seperable from the actual experience of doing Kempo. KUmite shutai, and all that..

Tony Leith

Tripitaka of AA
9th October 2002, 07:31
Gary Dolce Sensei mentioned here (or on another thread perhaps) that he'd prefer people not to use the honorific -sensei, thereby keeping the forum as a sharing of ideas between equals (I paraphrase, I think that is what he intended). This can be a bit tricky when trying to put forward ideas that are listener-specific. Some advice and ideas are more suitable for the Kenshi who has years of experience under his obi, while other threads are created for the newcomer, where simple guidance is sought.

I've written a long meandering post, so be prepared for some wasted time :(

Commitment. What you should expect from yourself as a student and what a Teacher should expect from a student. How physical training should be balanced with the mental approach. Finding the balance. These subjects were crucial for me when I was training. Finding the balance was where I fell down. But that is another story.


Observations on Commitment;

My example to follow was my Sensei. Jee Sensei taught two sessions a week in my local Community Centre. Because he had the keys to the building and we were the last classes of the day, we tended to over-run regularly. The Tuesday class was scheduled for 8pm-10pm but I recall that we would often miss the closing time at the nearest pub (11pm). The Friday session began with a Juniors class at 6pm and would finish... just before closing time at the nearest pub :D or not
:rolleyes: . He would invariably be present for the Saturday afternoon session at Stockwell (Mizuno Sensei's class, where monthly Black Belt classes were held).

He was an accountant by day, often working late and arriving at the class straight from the office. He also had a wife and two young children at home.

He used to play squash and badminton with friends in highly competitive weekly matches.

During classes, he had eyes in the back of his head. He knew everything about everyone. He could make an accurate assessment of someone's ability in an instant and give them appropriate instruction. I am convinced that he can read people's minds. He was always willing to talk to students after class and offer sage wisdom on any subject (No, I don't mean he answered with dumb Zen riddles).

I took his commitment as a given. It was only after meeting his family that it really came to me that he was a "normal human being" at the same time as being my guru, swami, Zen Master, Sensei. How he managed to hold all those elements together amazed me. I tried to imagine how I could emulate him.

Throughout my time with Jee Sensei, I only once saw him lose his Sensei-Aura. That was twenty minutes before the start of the World Taikai in 1985. I saw him doing warm-ups and stretching with Graham Nabbs Sensei prior to their Embu competition. It was the first and only time that I saw him focussed on his role as a kenshi, instead of Branch Master. He spent 10 minutes sweating and fretting, just like the rest of us, then went out and performed a breath-taking Embu that they had been perfecting for years. Then he was immediately back into Sensei-Mode, ready to help and organise and give his time for others.

... I'm drifting a little from my point, please forgive me.

My point; The Sensei can expect no more from his student than he is willing to give. The student should be prepared to accept that in Shorinji Kempo, most Sensei are not "professional" Martial Arts Instructors, but have their own careers to pursue and lives to live.

Gary, do you sometimes wish that you were still a student? It would seem that Japan is full of high graded students who will never be Branch Masters (for various reasons). Yet outside Japan the desire to "spread the word" makes the goal of opening your own club far more realistic. Is there a fundamental error in assuming that a good student would make a good Sensei? Is that a subject for another thread?

A long and drifting post, sorry for my vagueness.

tony leith
9th October 2002, 12:24
Tripitaka shouldn't worry over much; some of us manage to fit much more rambling into much less space.

I think the title and role of 'Sensei' has come to mean something fairly specific in the context of martial arts practice in Western societies. The context in which I can speak with some degree of knowledge is SK in Britain - I also did Wado Ryu karate for a while, but not long enough to be as familiar with its ethos. In the BSKF, the term generally applies to the senior instructors who were Mizuno Sensei's first generation of students, and as well as referring to their considerable technical abilities I think it shows respect for the demonstrable depth and duration of their commitment to the cause of SK in this country. In addition, some more junior instructors get the appelation because they've taken on the burden of running/starting branches.

I believe it's possible to do a useful and necessary job as an instructor without being of the kind of stature implied by the first usage (I would say this, because I am an instructor and certainly am not in that category). I would not expect, nor would I want students to address me as 'Sensei' - like any other usage, I think it is possible for it to become debased by overuse, and I wouldn't wish to contribute to that. It also hasn't been part of the tradition of the Glasgow dojo for instructors to be referred to by title, and there seems to be a consensus that on the whole we're happy with that (though of course this does not apply to visiting instructors/Sensei).

Fundementally, I think whatever the quality of the student/sensei relationship, the student has to have their own reasons for wanting to train, and I sometimes think too strong a dependency on any instructor is not necessarily a healthy thing. Commitment HAS to come from the student as well as the instructor - the student should not just be a passive vessel waiting to be filled by somebody else's knowledge.

Tony Leith

David Dunn
9th October 2002, 13:09
Tony - I'm guessing you no longer pick up your mail from paisley. Can you mail me. I've something you may be interested in.

Gary Dolce
9th October 2002, 15:23
"Do less; think more!"

Well you guys have me convinced - beginning next practice we are going to spend the full two hours just talking about techniques, and watching the occasional video, rather than actually doing anything. It should really cut down on our injuries, except maybe the carpal tunnel problems from using the remote. ;)

Kidding aside, I do agree that quality of practice is important. But for beginners, I think that it's repetition that really matters - repeating the same motions over and over and hearing the same corrections over and over. The second part of that is particularly important, and it is the chief reason that I don't encourage beginners to practice on their own at home. The repetitions have to be done correctly to have value, which is why it is important that they come to class often.

The more experienced you get, the more you get out of the higher level practice that happens at seminars, etc. But I wouldn't knock the on-going value of regular practice even when it isn't obvious that you are learning something new.

There is another side to the quality of practice question. A lot of that quality comes from what the student puts into it. If you just "go through the motions" at class, you aren't going to get much out of it, no matter how high the level of instruction. Likewise, you can find ways to improve in even the simplest of classes (e.g., the "let's punch and kick until we drop" classes) if you focus on it.

In answer to David Noble's question, yes I do miss being just a student, and there are many times at seminars especially when I think about how nice it would be to spend my time practicing with a really good teacher. However, teaching Shorinji Kempo is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done. I started teaching because it was the only way I could continue practicing. I do sometimes struggle with the amount of commitment I have to make to continue teaching, but I can't even begin to quantify what I have received in return.