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Goju Man
8th October 2002, 01:18
Hello Ted, welcome back.;) I originally posted this question on a thread that was closed. I would like to ask it again to our kyokushin members. How much kata if any do you practice and how is it practised.

tamashi
8th October 2002, 04:51
Goju Man:

I can not answer for all Kyokushin students or dojo.
I will give a generalization and then a specific answer.

I think it really depends on the instructor, the dojo,
which faction they are in, and many other factors.
Some kyokushin sudents will drill kata constantly,
in groups, alone, in class, in practice etc.
some will learn interpretation, some may not.
Some may learn kata just because they are rank required,
others will take to the kata and study in great detail/depth.
in short - there is a lot of variety!

In my case, I am currenly not running traditional kata
in great frequency right now. however, i did for the
first decade or so of training. My students all learn the Kata
and I teach some aplications. some things go in cycles -
we just got back from a knockdown tournament so the focus
of training has been on the martial sport aspect of our style
for quite some time. now that the event is behind us - so
will cycle back into kata work for a while.
as well as fighting of course.

Not sure if this really helps you :-)

Regards,

Paul

Amphinon
8th October 2002, 13:09
We have kata that is 'required' for rank, however the premise of the kata is practice. We view the Kata as more of a workout using the techniques and examples in the Kata to show viable combinations as well as balance, skill, speed, timing, and most of all proper technique. The Kata is a guideline of skill level that should be maintained for rank.

Just because someone learns all the katas does not make them a Black Belt.

Zoyashi
8th October 2002, 18:30
When I studied Kyokushin in Japan (IKO 1), We learned the "warmup" kata for the first belt test (Taikyoku 1, 2,3) then All five Pinan, which would be reviewed at each belt test. After Shodan you'd start learning the more advanced kata. The main focus was on conditioning, whacking the pads, and knockdown sparring. Kata got maybe 3% of practice time.
Josh Gepner

Goju Man
9th October 2002, 01:01
Thank you gentlemen. Some great info. I was curious because of all the kyokushin tapes I've seen over the years, I can't remember ever seeing kata practised. It's also interesting to note that off shoots of kk have either changed the kata, as in Ashihara and Enshin, or maybe eliminated it all together. I seem to find that, in my experience, I've found these karateka to be better fighters in general.

tamashi
9th October 2002, 04:23
Manny:

Hey that's a good one!

I dont think many Kyokushin offshoots have eliminated Kata.
Ashihara and Enshin practice the Fighting kata from Kumite
dachi. The thing with Enshin practirioners is that they tend
to "specialize" in the sabaki method; sircling to get to the
blind spot, or sweeping their opponent.

Even Seido Kai Kan which is more strongly influenced by
Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Kickboxing has retained some kata.
Just not traditional kata. World Oyama still has kata, as does
most any direct offshoot i can think of.

There are plenty of Kyokushin kata on video tape, maybe you
just need a bigger collection of tapes :-) Seriously most of
what you see on video will be knockdown fighting, but in training
kata is still practiced. just not so much when tournament fighters
are getting ready for competition. as I said there is much variety.
I get quite a few international students at my club, and it is more
common for them to be awesome fighters then to by kata specialists...

Dont forget all the great kyokushin fighters out there such as Filho,
Kazumi, Pettas, Gary O'Neil, as well as Matsui, Midori etc.

its all good!

:D

Goju Man
10th October 2002, 01:02
It surely is paul. That's the reason I got into kickboxing many years ago. I didn't mind doing kata but loved to fight. It seemed that too much emphasis was being placed on kata and not enough on kumite. Many of the old school guys I came up with had either left training or just disappeared. I teach only two students in private, one is training with my freind and I'm just tutoring him on their curriculum. The other is being trained in just kumite, no kata. He has already had to defend himself and has done so effectively.
Wish there would be more K-1 being shown.;)

Goju Man
10th October 2002, 01:05
Paul, which kata does your dojo emphasize?

MarkF
10th October 2002, 01:45
Originally posted by Goju Man

Wish there would be more K-1 being shown.;)


There is almost as much K-1 as there is judo.;)


Mark

Goju Man
10th October 2002, 02:42
There is almost as much K-1 as there is judo.

Agreed. Not nearly enough of either one.;)

tamashi
10th October 2002, 03:55
Manny:

Lets see if I can have a few less typos in his post!

Here are most of the Kyokushin Kata:

3 Taikyoku Kata
3 Tsokugi Kata
Sanchin Kata
5 Pinan Kata
2 Gekisai Kata
Tsuki-no
Tensho
Saiha/Saifa
Seienchin
Garyu
Seipai/Saipai

I have a very "young" dojo which has only been around 2-3 years.
we do all those shotokan based kata first, so it is pretty difficult
in my particular case to say which kata would be emphasised. I don't
really have students who are proficient in any kata past Pinan 3.

Personally, I prefer the goju-based kata such as Seienchin, Tensho
and Sanchin. but that is just me. I was also taught Bassai dai,
Hangetsu, and Tekki (naifanchi) but they are no longer in Kyokushin.

It is probably very diffferent in Dojo that have been established for
25 years or something.

BTW I have to agree, more K-1 would be a good thing!
I went and watched a Qualifying event back in feb, it was a blast!

regards,

Paul

Martin H
10th October 2002, 11:04
Originally posted by tamashi

3 Taikyoku Kata
3 Tsokugi Kata
Sanchin Kata
5 Pinan Kata
2 Gekisai Kata
Tsuki-no
Tensho
Saiha/Saifa
Seienchin
Garyu
Seipai/Saipai


Dont you do kanku-dai, yantsu and sushi-ho?
I can sympathize with you skipping all the ura versions of the taikyoku and pinans, though, (pretty useless katas in my view).

tamashi
10th October 2002, 13:39
OSU!

Hi Martin.
That was not meant to be an all inclusive list.
As I said, "Most" of the Kyokushin kata.

I have been told the Ura versions are supposed to help teach
circling/Sabaki. I think we learn this better from partner drills
similar to what the Ashihara/Enshin Folks do.

Good to hear from you,
Paul

Goju Man
10th October 2002, 21:34
Nice list. I learned the nihanchi katas on my own some time back, and two pinans. I though they were nice. We do taikyoku katas. Work lots of bunkai? How much ne waza if any? We incorporated ne waza in our dojo. We had one of our jr. black belts win a shootfighting match.

Amphinon
10th October 2002, 22:02
We do:

5 - Taikyoku
5 - Heian
3 - Tekki
Sanchin
Yonsu
Empi
Bassai Dai
Kusanku
Jion
Saifa
Bo Kata
Sai Kata

Goju Man
11th October 2002, 01:19
Fernando, great info. I wonder, taking into account mas Oyama was a good judoka,(?) how he didn't incorporate ne waza into his tournament fighting? Like the Shidokan (sp) group. How accomplished a judoka was Oyama?
Thanks.

Martin H
11th October 2002, 01:39
Originally posted by Goju Man
Fernando, great info. I wonder, taking into account mas Oyama was a good judoka,(?) how he didn't incorporate ne waza into his tournament fighting? Like the Shidokan (sp) group. How accomplished a judoka was Oyama?
Thanks.

Oyama was a student at Sone Dojo of KodoKan Judo in the Kasagaya district of Tokyo. The instructor of this dojo was Kozo Sone, 9th Dan KodoKan Judo.
He reached 4th dan.
Later he became a good friend and sparring partner to Masahiko Kimura (not entirely unknown in judo circles).

Early kyokushin fighting DID include newaza, but it was removed by the time of the first kyokushin world championship, to make a more interresting (at the time, atleast) and safer competition.

Goju Man
11th October 2002, 01:48
Martin, does your school practise ne waza? In general, how many tachi waza do kyokushin schools practise? We used to have to know ippon seoi, uchi mata, kouchi gari. That wasn't so much a requirement of the organization as it was our schools.
Thanks.

Goju Man
11th October 2002, 02:26
Yes, I have watched a few of them. They are excellent. I'm sorry to say that not enough of it is televised. Fernando, do you know if they practise kata?

tamashi
11th October 2002, 06:05
Manny:

The Dojo I "grew up" in did some ne waza. My former instructor
was in law enforcement, so we learned limited ground work.
Mostly police tactics. Enough to get by, but not enough to go up
against Frank Shamrock or Tito Ortiz if you know what i mean.
:cool:


Sensei Dyer:

the 3 Tekki have not been part of Kyokushin for a long time.

Empi - was also long ago removed, if it was ever in.
(I was taught it once upon a time, but forgot it)

Bassai Dai - was removed, although some are trying to reinstate it
(Why I am not really too sure)

Jion - to the best of my knowledge is not a kyokushin kata.


Manny: if you have ESPN 2, then you are in luck!

2001 World Shidokan Invitational
60 min.
The 2001 World Shidokan Invitational.
Category: Sports, Sports (misc.)
Show times
Date Time Channel
Friday, 11 8:00 PM 34 ESPN2

that is direct from the www.TVguide.com website

Martin H
11th October 2002, 09:25
Originally posted by Goju Man
Martin, does your school practise ne waza? In general, how many tachi waza do kyokushin schools practise? We used to have to know ippon seoi, uchi mata, kouchi gari. That wasn't so much a requirement of the organization as it was our schools.
Thanks.

Unfortunaly my school do very little newaza. It is mostly confined to training camps and special occations.
And we do not have any set newaza syllabus.
Sadly, what newaza and kansetsuwaza oyama taught in the early days has not transfered down to us all that well.

Goju Man
11th October 2002, 12:23
Paul, thanks for the info. Will be watching! We incorporated ground work inour dojo as well. The dojo still does it. They would not be able to handle Shamrock, but then again, neither would I.:D
But at least they can defend themselves and don't "freak out" if they get taken down.

hector gomez
11th October 2002, 16:20
Great info guys,we seem to have some guys that know there kyokushin
history.

Is it safe to assume that kata training within the kyokushin styles and it's offshoots are practiced more or less depending on the different schools,organizations and branches?

Also,my understanding of enshin karate is that the katas were somewhat
altered and are reffered to as fighting kata,is this the only offshoot that has done this?

My last question,How many kyokushin offshoots have eliminated kata completely?shidokan maybe?could they be considered a legitimate karate style or just kickboxing, if they don't practice it?


Hector Gomez

PS. Paul thanks for the info on shidokan tonight.

Bustillo, A.
11th October 2002, 17:25
Hector,

Enshin Karate tossed out all the time-honored forms with fixed stances. Ashihara Karate, the forerunner of Enshin, had done the same thing. H. Ashihara tossed the old and he had specific reasons for developing new forms.

hector gomez
11th October 2002, 17:40
Antonio,

WOW,did H.ashihara fully understand the meaning and bunkai of the old katas and still proceeded to toss them out?He definitely must have had specific reasons,ofcourse some would probably argue that his understanding of these older katas was only surface deep to begin with.

Hector Gomez

tamashi
11th October 2002, 18:15
I think Seido Kai Kan (Shodo Kai Kan)
also use a couple of Kata similar to the
Ashihara forms. But they only have a couple of them.

Goju Man
12th October 2002, 01:46
Good points all. Wasn't Ashihara directly under Sosai? Why did he break away? What was his motivation for changing the kata? As for me personally, I like the Goju kata, it's a great workout, but I don't think they have a place in kumite for me. I train more like a fighter, heavy bag, speed bag, double end, etc. I also train bjj and submission wrestling. Do you guys have other reasons for keeping the kata?
Thanks.

kusanku
12th October 2002, 02:40
Originally posted by hector gomez
Antonio,

WOW,did H.ashihara fully understand the meaning and bunkai of the old katas and still proceeded to toss them out?He definitely must have had specific reasons,ofcourse some would probably argue that his understanding of these older katas was only surface deep to begin with.

Hector Gomez

Hi Hector, just passiong thru- I had Ashihara's first English language karate manual, and in it he says something to the effect that he did not see the usefuulness of the katas, as he asked his class what was the meaning of the umbrella block, for instance, and they said they couldn't see it, and as he couldn't either, he simply threw out the old katas.

This would indicate that he did not understand at all, the bunkai of those katas.

Comments Oyama made in his book,, This is Karate, on his section on the Tensho Kata, was that he did not understand bunkai of other katas either, but tensho, he did, so he felt tensho was the most useful kata.

Many Japanese instructors apparently did not understand and were not taught bunkai in any deep manner or even, not at all.Oyama of course, as a fourth dan in Judo and a student of Daito Ryu Aikijijitsu or related arts under Yoshida Kotaro, had his own grappling, locking and vital point waza, which he discussed in his books This is Karate and Advanced Karate, even referring to the ability to knock a person out with the pressure of one finger on the neck, possessed by as he said, one in ten thousand practitioners, and to reverse hand or gyakute techniques which Yoshida, he says, never lost a match in.

At any rate, I fully concur that anyone who does not understand application or bunkai of their kata, or cannot make what they do understand work, should either study some other arts to make their execution of those waza effective, or junk the kata, and either start over with their own, or do away with them entirely, since I feel it is nothing but silly to do what one can get little or no benefit from doing.

The fact that apparently some Kyokushinkai dojo or schools have junked Naihanchi/Tekki, and Empi,kata, show that they have no understanding of the applications from these kata, which form the basis of effective self defense in some Okinawan styles.But in so doing, they are at least honest and true to their own beliefs, and with this, I can find no fault whatever.

So, I would say, that Ashihara Sensei and the others, had no understanding of the kata bunkai to those kata, and were right to dismiss them as of little or no use for their purposes.

I wonder, if the Judo kata were not two-person, if these discussions would be about them.:DForunately, the historicity of the applications of these kata are not and can not be in question, nor can for the most part, their aeffectiveness, though there is a move in kime no kata against a sowrd wielding opponent, and one in koshiki no kata, against a dagger wielding one, that I question as liable to get at least most people who try it for real, sliced and diced.

Returning to radio silence and spiritual discipline orf remaining away from forums,:D
Hi Yo Silver, Away!
The Lone Vengel

hector gomez
12th October 2002, 03:52
Hi John,

I knew this thread would get your juices going,first of all,I would really like to hear from any former or present ashihara students or representatives on this issue.

Next,I cannot believe that junking the older katas only comes from not understanding them to begin with.We live in a world full of
knowledge that can be gained from books,internet,videos,etc,all of those secrets in the katas are really not secrets to anyone anymore alot of the hidden secrets in kata even when explained in full detail
do not do a great job of convincing some on their delivery(footwork)system therefore it makes them seem impractical in the eyes of some.

I know alot of practicioners that know and understand all the applications or bunkais of all those katas but continue to believe that the method of delivery(footwork) could be outdated,it's not so much that the deadly techniques might not work any bloody fool knows they do,it's how it's delivered that must always change and adapt.

If I show you an interpretation of a technique that is deadly but a hundred years later most all practicioners have developed a common defense for the delivery of that technique,would it not make sense to change the delivery system.

I also know and understand that kata is a method of practicing piesces of links of techniques and that it's really not going to look like that for real,well why not try to mimick and practice exactly the same way it is going to look for real,it's done thru physics and science in almost every athletic endeavor known to mankind why not karate.

A deadly technique will always be a deadly technique what must always constantly change and adapt with time is the delivery systems and defenses,this I believe is what ashihara and many others had in mind.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
12th October 2002, 12:38
Guys, let's give it up for Shoney!:D Good Shidokan fights.
John, how are you? We miss you man.;) I don't know about that theory. I can't speak for wether or not they understand bunkai or not. That's better left to some of the Kyokushin guys. But understanding or not, Kyokushins fighting effectiveness can't be argued. How is it they, and Oyama, not having understanding of bunkai are such good fighters? It can't be bunkai. I personally know literally hundreds of bunkai and "hidden" techniques, yet as Hector mentioned, the delivery in the kata is all wrong, or at least outdated. Oyama was good at one deadly technique though, the good 'ole right hand, or maybe it was the left? That particular technique doesn't seem to be "hidden".

Paul, Martin, Fernando, how much bunkai do you train?
Thanks for the replies.;)

kusanku
12th October 2002, 23:33
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]Guys, let's give it up for Shoney!:D Good Shidokan fights.
John, how are you? We miss you man.;)

Oh, I'm fine Manny.How you guys?
Well , I hope.


]I don't know about that theory. I can't speak for whether or not they understand bunkai or not.

Ashihara said he could see no use for the umbrella block, I presume he meant the double up block thing in Bassai, or some such.Then no one ever explained to him, including Sosai, that that could be a double blow to the head or neck, for instance.

Oyama did write that kata tensho should be studied rather than a bunch of others that had no useful purpose, andyway that anyone understood. This was in the sixties before all this information was available.

As for delivery systems of footwork, couldn't agree more, but kata are npot teaching sparring against an evasive opponent, they teach self defense against an attacking opponent, so footwork becomes either a single evasion, a spin or turn, or a step sideways, backwards or in, sometimes to the side and in as in Aikido entering footwork.

What never changes is attacking mentality, they come straight in and don't worry about defense, since an attacker thinks they can take you.I mean in a situation where someone jumps you, not in a fight where both of you got your dukes up, then its float like a bumblebee time.:D


That's better left to some of the Kyokushin guys.

We've heard from several fairly high ranked ones on here, and none have yet said that there was any systematic training in kata bunkai, probably there were some applications taught though.Its just that in most Japanese systems of karate,you had mainly punch kikc stuff with maybe some judo and jiujitsu type stuff like idori taught separately, which with some throws and holds, are similar to kata applications anyway.


But understanding or not, Kyokushins fighting effectiveness can't be argued. How is it they, and Oyama, not having understanding of bunkai are such good fighters?

Because fighting has nothing to do with knowing kata or bunkai, I have always said this, kata and bunkai are for self defense only and this is not the same as fighting, notwithstanding that a good fighter casn defend themselves by fighting.I can train a good fighter with no more than seven moves.But if he's caught in a hold or lock before he can prepare,like say in a gulillotine choke, he better know defense for that move or its over.

Oyama, Fourth dan Judo, didn't need kata or even karate to defend himself.

Oyama, strong man, didn't even need martial arts, really.

Oyama, student of Kotaro Yoshida of Daito Ryu Aikijiujitsu knew hundreds of locks and throws and holds and blows to vital points, didn't need anything else that this, either.

Besides all this, Oyama, student of Funakoshi and partner of Yamaguchi, knew Shotokan and Goju Ryu Karate, and some form of Chinese Kenpo, and I guess wrestling and boxing too.Any one of these would have been enough for him.But he knew them all.Including dozens of kata.He certainly knew how to apply tensho in combat, and that would be all anyone would need since that is the ultimate blocking and covering, kata, and once you block and cover an attack,you completely control your opponent.


It can't be bunkai. I personally know literally hundreds of bunkai and "hidden" techniques,

As you are a Goju practitioner and these are taught in all systems of Goju, I never doubted it for a minute.:-)



yet as Hector mentioned, the delivery in the kata is all wrong, or at least outdated.

Or perhaps-perhaps, I say-it mioght be that the footwork in the kata is defensive footwork.That is to say,not intended to catch or pursue, but rather to respond to a sudden attack you didn't see coming until the last second, as well as facilitationg sweeps and throws and locks, or eventraining strong low kicks through use of those stances.Perhaps. Or perhaps, Hector and you are correct.Either way, the kata do make for a nice workout, don't they?



Oyama was good at one deadly technique though, the good 'ole right hand, or maybe it was the left?

I heard both. Also hear he had a great side kick, about rib to head level.But the thing he speaks of in his books a lot is the point and circle, deriving from ancioent Chinese Kempo, and seen in the kata tenshoi and sanchin, especially in the mawashi uke, which Oyama said had all karate hand waza contained in it.You might say, hidden in it. Heck, I've read every Oyama book there is in English, back as far as the Sioxties before I ever had a lesson in karate, when I was a judoka.I like Oyama Karate.But I notice in every book, he had several katas.

The list I derived then from Kyokushin books in the old days. was Taikyoku 1-3, Pinan or Heian 1-5,Teki 1-3,Hangetsu, Jutte, Sanchin, saifa, seienchin,Bassai, Kanku,Garyu, Sushiho, Yantsu,Tensho, and there werre somne others.Thats a lot of kata.

But Oyama said you also had to study footwork drills, por you would come up short in actual combat. And so you do, as actual combat iumplies two people fighting, not merely one person attacking and defender responding.

Self defense is easier than fighting if you know it, after all, the attacker thinks he has you.In a fight, that may be the case or it may not.If a guy gets his dukes up, he respects the possibillity that I many well clean his plow. If he jumps me, he thinks I'm prey.

Obviously, in self defense, what is happening is a quick response to a sudden attack.If its a fight, it could go for a while.Katas is obviously a series of self defese presponsesd not really designed to last a long time.Some instructor once said that if it takes longer than a few seconds, your advantage from karate is gone and its a fight.


That particular technique doesn't seem to be "hidden".

Well, its not but if you set 'em up right, they may not see it coming.:D


Paul, Martin, Fernando, how much bunkai do you train?

Good question, and is it systematic or just, here's an application for this move or therse moves?
Take care all.Love Koykushin and offshoots.

Goju Man
13th October 2002, 01:23
John old freind, the kata gods are going to reincarnate you as the second coming of Miyamoto Muzashi.:D
If there is anyone that has ever put up a fight, it has been you my freind.;) I don't view fighting and self defense seperately, fighting is fighting. Kyokushin guys can obviously do that. The fact that they stop doing kata to train for fighting tells they don't need it.

I got to hand it to Shoney Carter. The man competed in the UFC, wins the Shidokan, (again ?) I would really like to know his kata repetoir.
You're more likely to find Kyokushin and off shoot guys being able to do that.;)

Bustillo, A.
13th October 2002, 12:15
Kusanku wrote:
'The fact that apparently some Kyokushinkai dojo or schools have junked Naihanchi/Tekki, and Empi,kata, show that they have no understanding of the applications from these kata, which form the basis of effective self defense in some Okinawan styles..'


Hello John,

You state, 'that it shows that they have no understanding of applications...'I think that is stretching things a bit.

Mas Oyama's instructors were Funakoshi and kotaro Yoshida. In addition, Oyama learned Goju from So Nei chu. In 1993 I had written Mr. Richrad Kim. He responded. The answers to one of my questions was about So Nei Chu. Mr. Kim stated that So Neu Chu was one of Gogen Yamaguchi's top students. So, it is not so far-fetched that Oyama and Oyama's students must have had understanding about the applications.


John, aka kusanku, you make it sound as if if when someone really understands Kata, applications and so on the person will come under some mysterious cloud and because 'they understand'they will have no choice but to keep the standard time-honored forms. This type of thinking brings up several questions; "do they lose their ability to think different," "do they lose their ability to have new ideas?" And, "do they lose free will? " Of course not.

It should not be assumed that just because someone junks Kata that it automatically means they didn't understand kata.


In H. Ashihara's case, he had studied karate twenty years before he decided to revamp the forms. And he had specific reasons for doing so. He thought it was crucial to address the issue of faster footwork and combinations. Thus, his aim was to develop a karate style suited for our age and for real fighting.

Senjojutsu
13th October 2002, 13:04
Can someone, without flaming me, please justify to me the Taikyoku kata set?

I mean if you learn the Heian/Pinan Shodan kata (or Heian Nidan if your style designates it as such) isn't that enough?

An "H" pattern is an "H" pattern.

If separate kata existed just to show alternate hand techniques there could be 150 Heian kata sets, 100 Naihanchi/Tekki kata sets etc...

Learn Heian Shodan well, and move on people...

Martin H
13th October 2002, 22:05
Goju man regarding why ashihara broke away:
Politics and ambition. Also there is a bit of discrepancy about who took the initiative to Ashihara leaving kyokushin. Ashihara or Oyama.
The word "expelled" is often used.

Goju man regarding how much bunkai I do:
Not enough :-(
Kyokushin is, was and will aways be mainly about kumite. Bunkai, while fun and educational, is usualy not directly appicable in sparring (for one reason or another), and is therefore often neglected. Also bunkai training tend to be less physicaly demanding that what kyokushin practicioner usualy prefere.
Bunkai training depends on how interested your sensei is in the subject.

Kusanku Reg. the same thing as above:
We train it "this is a application of this move", not forming a system out of it.
This however is mostly a symptom of not training bunkai all that often.

Bustillo reg. Sonei Chu:
Although SoNei chu was a top goju practicioner back then, it is debated who he was a student of. Some claim it was Yamaguchi, other claim Miyagi himself.
Anyway after the korean war, he went into a korean monastery and dissapeared. So Oyama continued his studies with yamaguchi(who graded him to 8 dan gojuryu - this was before the gojuryu/gojukai split).

Bustillo and Kusanku reg. Junking old katas:
I dont think Naihanchi, empi or eny of the other katas removed from the formal kyokushin syllabus (Bassai, Gankaku and Hangetsu), was due to any lack of understanding of Bunkai on Oyamas part. Rather I think they where sacrificed because of limited time.
To many katas means not enough time to learn each one, and oyama spent most time with kihon and kumite already.
Oyama had a good understanding of Bunkai for most of his katas, but if it was from being teached them by Yamaguchi/Funakoshi/SoNei Chu or from deducting them from his Aikijutsu/judo training from Sone and Yoshida, is another matter.

Tensho simply was his favourite kata.

The real question is why he did not emhasise it more in his teaching so that it survived better unto today.

Btw.
Paul Re Hi:
Hi :-)

hector gomez
13th October 2002, 23:16
The saying has always been there is no karate without kata,with that being said,I have been told by certain individuals that this is a very respected international karate forum and that I should not come on here and elaborate my opinions on why I don't practice kata.

Is it correct to assume then that karate instructors like ashihara(r.i.p) and ninomiya also quit reffering to themselves as karate instructors simply because they do not practice kata in the classical sense?I think not.

I have noticed that when you touch the kata subject,a common response is,"well kata is just one of the many learning tools",just like a boxer that has a lot of methods of training or tools at his disposal.

Is it fair then to say that if a boxer does not like or use a certain method of training,then he is not realy boxing?I don't think so.


Hector Gomez

PS,I guess an olympic judoka is not really doing judo,if he does not practice his judo(which most don't) katas,things that make you say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Victor
14th October 2002, 03:57
Hector,

Frankly, there is nothing you can say beyond what you've already expressed.

You don't belive in kata, others of us do.

If there was a case in either direction there would be no question.

But, as in all human endeavor, there is great variety. Something you feel personally challenged to contest. I really don't understand why as I've never felt anything but that what you're practicing obviously has great effect for you.

But somehow you feel that you have a purpose to challenge what you're incabable of accepting. Such as there may be meaning to kata that the training you've received and those you've associated with may not understand.

It's quite obvious that saying one is doing something isn't proof.

There are many meanings to the word karate. One specific one was defining those Okinawan arts, which all utilize kata as part of them. Okinawa has other fighting traditions which did not use kata, and they were content to use their own names, not claiming they were soemthing else.

But where Karate(okinawan) has one meaning, obviously Karate(Japanese) has another, and Karate(Ashira) means something entirely else, and so forth.

The simple truth that Karate(Okinawan) specifically deals with systems which use kata as a primary training method, and karate(something else) doesn't, totally relates to a real lack of comprehension to what each other is saying.

What you are quite suscinctly proving, is it really is impossible to communicte when one wants to choose how words are defined according to ones' own personal definition.

It also simply reinforces that its becoming quite meaningless to refer to the term karate as any longer having meaning. The countryside is filled with pretend dojo teachin 'karrrattee', and everyone defining the art as they wish.

In no case am I assuming you are anything but a serious commited artist in the version of the arts you believe in.

Unfortunately, there are many others who feel elsewise.

Sadly, without experienceing the training and experiences I've shared you can never really understand there is truly another facet to the arts than that which you share.

But that's what makes the world an interseting place, expecially as we are learning a really important fact.

Communication over the internet, is a very limited tool when we can't take the time to listen to each other.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu (note I dropped the term Karate many years ago as frankly as some define it I no longer accept the terms usage, but in every sense what I practice derives from the Okinawan karate arts).

tamashi
14th October 2002, 05:55
Martin's Answer is most likley fairly representative in Kyokushin
Dojo regarding bunkai. I know basic bunkai for the kata I do
as well as some not so basic. I teach at least one interpretation
to students learning the kata.
as Martin said, we tend to practice fighting, and all the drills
that go with it more often.

Martin H wrote:
Goju man regarding how much bunkai I do:
Not enough :-(
Kyokushin is, was and will aways be mainly about kumite. Bunkai, while fun and educational, is usualy not directly appicable in sparring (for one reason or another), and is therefore often neglected. Also bunkai training tend to be less physicaly demanding that what kyokushin practicioner usualy prefere.
Bunkai training depends on how interested your sensei is in the subject.

Good Answer!
:cool:

hector gomez
14th October 2002, 06:14
Victor,

That was a beautiful reply,well thought out and definitely not at all repeating yourself,there is hope for us folks on the internet"WE DO TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN" even when we don't share the same concepts and ideas.

Honestly I really don't have a personal vendetta or grudge on kata practice but try to put yourself in my shoes for a second,it is like the musician that learned to play music without knowing how to read or write music(some of the best musicians cannot read it or write it) only to have a music teacher tell you"YOU WILL NEVER LEARN THE REAL ESSENCE OF MUSIC IF YOU DON'T LEARN IT THE TRADITONAL WAY,all I can say is BU#@$%&*^hit,nothing personal towards you victor I am just trying to make a point.





Hector Gomez

Victor
14th October 2002, 10:34
Yo' Manny,

Now music, your ambition has no bounds.

After all, all intelligent persons recognize that all music after 1500 is post modern decedant XXXX anyway..... <GRIN>. Except jazz of course which is a different discipline within the lines.

The argrument is the same regardless of the disicpline.

And the answer is the same. One finds restriction in structure, others find unlimited freedom from the notes. After all there are uncountable different variations playing many classical pieces without changing a note, too.

Now I understand you appreciate the grappling skills. Pray tell how do you handle the neck breaking potential for the similar Aikido irmi nage found in Chinto kata. Do you advocate going full out with your partner, and taking their neck, or taking it easy and allowing it to deveolve into a soft projection technique as Aikido frequently does, or should one use the full snap of the technique and take the neck.

I would contend the art hinges on full functionality and only in kata can you find it. Without kata and full martial intent the art devolved into post war modern aikido concepts, or a watered down version for sparring if one has it in their vocalublary.

BTW, the essential concept in the aikido was the entering (regardless how the person is attacking, and the entry concept is idential to the Chinto execution.

Some of us realize the freedom within the lines is as infinite as the concept of freedom junking the classical.

And the classical musician, taking that same old piece can still find infinite values to communicate.

Of course karate really isn't classical in the truest use of the term. For that you have to go back to China......

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Goju Man
14th October 2002, 12:57
Hi Victor,

sorry that wasn't me, but I know some of us sound the same.:D
I can appreciate your love and understanding of kata. You are very well educated on the subject. Victor, just because I don't preach kata doesn't mean by any stretch of means I don't understand kata. I have a pretty deep and thorough understanding of kata. I also have a deep thorough understanding of fighting. Both of these understandings have come from many years of training and trial and error, as well as fighting. When I competed in tournaments, guess which division I did better in. Kata. Who would've guessed. The fact is, everyone who fights, as the kyokushin guys have pointed out, does not do kata. If you had a tournament coming up with some very skilled opponents and were going to fight, I don't think kata would help you prepare. You say kata's techniques are lethal, well the principles behind them are not. One who has a true understanding of kata will know that. There is a reason most of who are into kata don't fight, kata doesn't prepare you for it. If it did, kyokushin guys and the like would be bigger aficionados of kata than you. Keep on training man, if it's good for you and you love what you do, keep on training.;)

Victor
14th October 2002, 14:03
Manny,

I certainly will keep following my way.

I do understand what I'm referring to as kata study is not what most are calling the same.

And the instrutors who pressed this direction on me, from both Okinawan, Chinese and Indonesian arts all were adamant that their kata studies were the source of their great fighting ability.

But in each case you had to be there to understand this.

Perhaps the simplest way to try and bridge this comes from my one instructors Northern Eagle Claw studies. They are fanatics in the length and depth of their forms. But, the forms are but energy develpment tools, that lead into very complex two man sets, and are again bridges into understanding how technique is applied, which then cumulate in non-restriction sparring, that has no limits except a round isn't complted until you've locked your opponent.

I suspect you understand that concept quite well.

Following a somewhat different paradigm I've been taught and find the Okinawan kata, are a similar link. The bridges between kata energy release and using the same in combat is the difference between taking an armbar and rassling' with an opponent, or using the same to destroy their joints, and/or slamming their face into the ground.

As I see kata, they describe very old style striking and locking tradition, which words don't adequately describe.

The method of delivery isn't as kata practice flows. That in no way invalidates their use for energy development that then must be bridged into the opponent. In classical karate, the technique to bridge from kata to the opponent is often quite overlooked. It is an area I do much research into.

My instructors have given me 3 or 4 different ways that they've studied to do so. It is a vast important area to consider, and is the key that kata seems to ignore. But that's becaue kata wasn't the tool to go there. Kata have different purposes.

On the whole I don't find a great many in karate who work at bridging that gap, but I grant you that is the important goal.

And while I truly believe in kata, they are still only a part of what I do and work on with my students. Not a tool I'll abandon, but never the complete package.

BTW, for street self defense, we work on non-standard self defense off of my Bando stick studies, and again kata forms the basis for the beginning of this too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Bustillo, A.
14th October 2002, 15:23
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin H
[B]Goju man regarding why ashihara broke away:
Politics and ambition. Also there is a bit of discrepancy about who took the initiative to Ashihara leaving kyokushin. Ashihara or Oyama.
The word "expelled" is often used.


Martin H.

H. Ashihara had different ideas for training and he developed a karate style for the reasons I mentioned. --and , BTW, he resigned the KK--
Needless to say, it is not uncommon for people to leave organizations due to disagreements. However, you made it sound like the only reason he broke away was due to politics. Not so.


There are many ex-kyokushin instructors who formed their own organizations and style. Yet, for the most part, their off-shoot is still 80% Mas Oyama Kyokushin.
Ashihara karate is quite different and it is a well thought out system. Therefore, it is eveident that Ashihara didn't just put something together overnight because of politics.
Ashihara was an innovator.
Futhernore, I think you over-simplified things a bit about Kyokushin instructors and their knowlefge of bunkai. There are many who do know.


Hecor,

Good analogy about music.
We can use other examples. The style of 'Impessionism ' was, at first, criticized.-- As a matter of fact, the term 'Impressionist' was meant as a derogatory term-- There are many famous painters who ttrained in what was considered the classic style. However, many painters had new ideas. They experimented and chose to go another route. Did they not understand the orthodox methods? Indeed , they did, yet that didn't stop them from disregarding standard practice to formulate something new that has value.


Karate is an art. Kata, more, less, none...there are many ways to express an art.

hector gomez
14th October 2002, 17:50
In kata training most schools go thru a kata sequence maybe 2 or 3 times in practice,now granted there is not just one kata in most karate styles but quite a few so if you practice lets say 4 different katas in one day you performed a complete kata sequences about 12 times.


Now let's do the math,in every kata you run across a technique/bunkai
once or twice during the whole kata sequence.this means you really only do this certain technique maybe twice,now if you practice the kata all out 3 times you have practiced a certain move a total of 6 times in one day hardly the amount of repetitive numbers needed to master anything.


Now if you are not a mcdojo and you break down the the actual applications and study the bunkai like most on here claim to do over and over again even with the help of a resitive opponent does this not prove that kata is nothing without individual drilling something most wreslters,kickboxers and boxers do.

Last thought,I doubt that most kata afficionados(if this does not include you don't take it personal) breakdown all the individual moves and practice it a 1000 times which is what is really needed to master anything in order to pull it off for real. if some practicioners would really break it down that much and that often would it not defeat the whole purpose of practicing katas sequence to begin with?

Hector Gomez




Hector Gomez

Victor
14th October 2002, 20:41
Good questions Hector,

First I donít think the study of kata is to master kata. Instead youíre trying to master your control of yourself. And the emphasis is on Ďtryingí as one matures in the art and ages, there are varying levels of development and change. One kata, several kata or hundreds of them doesnít change the primary mission.

Second, The use of application potential as a study isnít going to achieve mastery of a form. At one level, of only one application of a movement sequence and a system of 8 classical Okinawan forms, youíre still talking about hundreds of movements. Many of which are similar to other ones, reducing the number.

At another level, through a form of fractal analysis, any movement can be broken into component movements all of which can be shown for self defense application. At a very real level, this takes even a hand full of forms and turns them into almost infinite possibilities, which can then be magnified by the number of different attacking sequences that they can counter, with greater and lesser effectiveness.

One interesting side-effect of such study, is you come to realize much of the obvious movement is actually possessing quite different application, than the beginning mind is ready to comprehend, nor does it need to. Allowing space for growth.

Where this could seem to be an insurmountable issue, trying to Ďmasterí everything, in reality this is but a tool set, which one can pick and choose from. And in combat, the fighter must pick and choose, almost automatically, from the various techniques studied. If those studies allow one to execute the techniques from kata, where is there a problem?

The instructor guides the student through those levels of application appropriate for their skill. As skill increases, further choices can be addressed. On advanced levels, this layer of study allows one to reset skills, choosing to change responses, and remain fresh in response capability.

The study behind kata can be totally open-ended. And itís not necessary that one does get all of it. But the kata is more than just the use of its pieces. The forms develop various energy flow, to make each movement work. This isnít touchy-feely, but rather direct usage to strike, or rachet into a lock, etc.

In all forms of combat, youíre trying to be more precise, quicker, and more efficient than the opponent. Kata is one of the methods which can be used to bridge that gap, but only effectively if the techniques you are using come from the kata.

No doubt when one isnít using kata technique for combat, the value of kata decreases.

Yet, kata is only a piece of the picture, and unlike claims to being the whole tool, far from that, as I see it.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

kusanku
15th October 2002, 00:52
Everyone has some good points and information on here, I am enjoying the thread immensely.Let me use Hector's last post to make some points from perhaps a different standpoint.


Originally posted by hector gomez
[B]In kata training most schools go thru a kata sequence maybe 2 or 3 times in practice,now granted there is not just one kata in most karate styles but quite a few so if you practice lets say 4 different katas in one day you performed a complete kata sequences about 12 times.

Ah, here's the rub. In Shorin Ryu, I was taught way differently from this.After about twenty minutes to a half an hour of calisthenics, conditioning, and running,we would do a kihon workout with all kihon taken directly from our kata(Matsubayashi Ryu) and there were about a hundred kihon , but really less as many were the same technique done in different stances and with different footwork, ie reverse punch, front kick, fron punch, etc.

But then we did kata. I was shown first, one kata only, as I had studied Okinawan Kenpo, it was an advanced Kata, Wankan, and we did this katas ten, fifteen or thirty times per day.We did this katas over three thousand times in eight months, and we took every single part of it apart, and we did two person drills using the parts, and then we put it back together again.After some months, I was shown two other kata, Fukyu Ichi and Ni(Gekisai) which were used as a triangle with wankan, a mini system of kata, you could do all three each day in a couple minutes.Betwen them,, they had all the waza you would usually need on self defense.These were done at least ten times each per day, with wankan a minimum of ten, maximum of thirty times a day.

Now, wankan, fukyu ichi and ni, repeat many techniques. Fukyu ichi and ni have twenty moves each, but fukyu ichi is only five techniques,which are down block, up block, front punch, reverse punch and rising up punch.There are of course other applications in the kata, using those moves, but those are the moves.

Ten times through the kata, equals two hundred moves, of those five techniqueus done each a number of times on each side.

Fukyu gata ni has some more techniques, but still twenty moves.Up Block, Up punch,side down block, middle block/backfist,front kick, elbow strike, reverse punch, knife hand strike, cross pull and separated punch or awase zuki.Ten techniques.Each repeated at least once and some several times.

Ten times through, its two hundred moves, or about at least, twenty each of each move and more of others.

Wankan has about thirty-six moves, many of which consist of knife hand blocks, reverse punches, front kicks and a few other moves.

Really, it is these:Knife hand block,arm bar,x punch, double fist rip to sides,wrapping knife hand block, punch to side front,parry and punch,ridge hand strike/block,over parry and punch, leg evasion/block,down blcok, reverse punch,front punch, reverse stepping punch, front kick, arm wrap, wristlock takedown, and double punch, not in that order.

Eighteen techniques, similar to an old Shaolin form called Eighteen hand to catch the king, but that's an aside..


Ten times thru, three hundred sixty moves.Fifteen times, is five hundred and twenty moves.

Thirty times through, one thousand, one hundred and eighty moves, many of the same waza on both sides.

Do that kata thirty times a day, for one hundred days, its three thousand times, thirty six.One hundred and eight thousand moves.Of eighteen techniques.

By your statements, that should be enough to master the moves.

After this, I was taught and learned, the other katas to use as reference bases or databases for the main three I did.


Now let's do the math,in every kata you run across a technique/bunkai
once or twice during the whole kata sequence.

This depends. In the above kata, the bunkai are done at about five different levels, the way I do them, with first level being striking mostly, assisted by some grabs.

Second level would be counter grappling, against grabs.

Third level would be combining reversal and escape techniques with striking.

Fourth level would be using sabaki footwork which in this style is taught in the kata,to evande or unbalance the attacker, be he striking or grabbing/pushing, and instantly counter with strikes.
Follow these up with a finishing technique, lock, hold, takedown, or further strike or kick.Sequential defense.

Fifth level would be to evade and neutralize in a single move, as you would if you were, say, using swords.In other words, do not let him hit you and move such that you go to his weak side and immediately neutralize either with a strike, a lock/takedown., throw or hold, or a kick, such as to destroy his further ability to attack.

To get skill to do this, each strategy must be practiced with partners really doing the attacks, many times over.On each side, using variations.Also supplementary equipment drills for power in actual usage.


this means you really only do this certain technique maybe twice,now if you practice the kata all out 3 times you have practiced a certain move a total of 6 times in one day hardly the amount of repetitive numbers needed to master anything.

For those who train as you outline, you are quite correct. I do not, and others do not.But if they only do a kata that many times, you are right. Now, it is true, that if you want to learn a kata, and do it three times a day for three years, that is more than three thousand times. But if you train for quicker utility, might consider fifteen to thirty times a day.At least ten.


Now if you are not a mcdojo and you break down the the actual applications and study the bunkai like most on here claim to do over and over again even with the help of a resitive opponent does this not prove that kata is nothing without individual drilling something most wreslters,kickboxers and boxers do.

Nothing? No. Solo kata is the repository of the self defense waza, and training in it, is a practice in repetition , mnemonics, perfection of movement and transition,agility, mobility and hostility:D,plus keeps me from being bored out of my skull doing the basics over and over again.

In other words, it gives a fun way to practice basics, combinations, footwork, etc.and keeps me from fogetting techniques I might otherwise never practice but may someday even use in self defense. Plus, they make a darn fine overall body workour using no equipment and needing no mats or partners that can be done anytime and in very little space.


Last thought,I doubt that most kata afficionados(if this does not include you don't take it personal) breakdown all the individual moves and practice it a 1000 times which is what is really needed to master anything in order to pull it off for real.

Three thousand times.For better results. For best results, ten thousand times, but now we are getting into some really heavy time investments that are best measured in decades.It can be and is done , however.

One thousand times five moves is only five thousand moves.
Fukyu gata ichi has twenty moves, never mind the rpetitions of them within each kata.Ten times a day of twenty moves, is in three hundred days,sixty thousand moves .One thousand moves is achieved in five days.One thousand times each of the five moves, in at most, twenty five.

Thats the math.In a kata centered system.



if some practicioners would really break it down that much and that often would it not defeat the whole purpose of practicing katas sequence to begin with?

No. If your system is derived from your kata, then the breakdown, repetition, partner training, and solo kata training all mutually reinforce each other, and the solo training keeps your skill level up and even increases it, when you can't get to dojo or have partners to train with you.This at least has been my experience.

Guy I began training with, didn't like kata, only did them for belts, in Kenpo. After some time away from the dojo, his skill deteriorated, mine was kept and reinforced with kata, when I saw him after a couple uyyears, my skills were far better than his, from doing kata only for a couple years. Including in fighting.I was faster, more fluid, more powerful, and he couldn't touch me.

I made shodan then, when I returned, he is still a green belt.Later, focussing on kata, I made godan.However, that was not all about kata, either.I would say that couple of years, though, showed me the value of kata in keeping my skills. However, I did not learn to spar from kata, it doesn't teach that type thing, and I don't believe, it was ever meant to.

As for difference between fighting and self defense:If two are training, preparing, and going by rules, to win, that is a fight. If two have at it in the street, no rules, to survive, but both attack, that is a fight. If one attacks and the other only wants to live, that is self defense.

The skills taught in kata, I believe, were meant for self defense, notwithstanding that self defense can also be taught with no kata.

Yes, I learned such skills in many sports and arts as well, but also, in kata.

Now, as to Kyokushinkai kan, I defer to those who are in those arts, and ask as well, how come tensho was not emphasized, with point and circle, after Oyama's passing, that is curious.He did give the applications of it, the tensho cover and entry, in This is Karate, and showed many waza that could be done fromn that entry in Advanced Karate, notably throws, locks and holds with takedowns.It is true that if you master these principles, you would be formidable, indeed.

They are similar to ones that were emphasized in my shorinryu kata centered training, get out of the way, as you intercept and strike or kick.Then worry about followup.

These are a few points I wanted to share here.No personality, no style, really, just a few points on practicability of kata training, and how to achieve that, and I cannnot overemphasize the absolute necessity of two person drills at speed and with intent.

Also, the kata themselves must be performed at combat speed, which many seem not to do these days.I don't do kata as though a ref is watching, I do it as though I don't want my opponent to see anything coming before it gets him.In close, fast and sneaky.But still with good mechanics.Then when you need to apply, it happens in seite, or natural mode.Like, from a normal stance, normal hand position, say down at the sides, and wham.Kind of like, Oh, Heck!And move to save your bacon.

Bustillo, A.
15th October 2002, 01:13
Hecor, Manny, anybody...

...too long...Give me the Kusanku's cliff notes version in the morning.

Goju Man
16th October 2002, 02:06
John, the problem with what you've written is that either the time or the intensity of the training session doesn't add up.

twenty minutes to a half an hour of calisthenics, conditioning, and running,we would do a kihon workout with all kihon taken directly from our kata(Matsubayashi Ryu) and there were about a hundred kihon , but really less as many were the same technique done in different stances and with different footwork, ie reverse punch, front kick, fron punch, etc.
Ok. That's thirty min.

we did this katas ten, fifteen or thirty times per day.
Ok. Let's give it one minute each performance, thirty minutes with rest or without, depending on how many kata performed.

Now, wankan, fukyu ichi and ni, repeat many techniques. Fukyu ichi and ni have twenty moves each, but fukyu ichi is only five techniques,which are down block, up block, front punch, reverse punch and rising up punch.There are of course other applications in the kata, using those moves, but those are the moves
Twentyfive moves, each one drilled ten times works to about ten minutes each one (both partners), is two hundred fifty minutes, which is about four hours, and we haven't included any rest time or instruction time. WOW!
I don't know how you did it. I think fighting is much easier than that workout.:D That leaves no time for bogu kumite, a job or anything else.
In a normal class structure of about two hours, that doesn't work. I sometimes taught three techniques, with warm up, kihons and kumite, there wasn't always enough time. John, I know that the kata afficionados are always trying to show that kata is the ultimate thing, but sometimes, there is no consistency among some of you. Ted, one of the biggest kata afficionados on here wrote that his fighting proficiency was completely due to kata alone, yet wouldn't teach kata for someone going to prison. He also said kata wasn't good for fighting I think. With the scenario you describe, there's no mathematical way it's going to work. I don't understand. Hey, I still like you man.;)

Fernando, nice post. How much time was dedicated to that?
Thanks.

kusanku
16th October 2002, 03:45
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John, the problem with what you've written is that either the time or the intensity of the training session doesn't add up.

Yes it does, we used to work out for about four to six hours hours a night, this was not a commercial class.


twenty five moves, each one drilled ten times, ten minutes each one (both partners), is two hundred fifty minutes, which is about four hours, and we haven't included any rest time or instruction time. WOW!

You don't do all moves each time, Manny. You take the form sequentially, and each drill deals with part of the kata.


don't know how you did it..fighting is much easier than that workout.:D That leaves no time for bogu kumite, a job or anything else.

Reread. This was shorin, not Kempo.We did no bogu kumite.It is easier to fight than to do this training.A job? I used to work eight hours at the lumber mill, then come to the Y and train eight more hours, and there was about time to eat and sleep at home. I was a training fanatic.The instructor would also come and train about five hours.
I often think I spent way too much time on karate.

.sructure of about two hours, that doesn't work.

Too right it wouldn't, but we trained for ourselves, not for a class.


three techniques, with warm up, kihons and kumite, there wasn't always enough time.

No, not in a two hour class.But there would be time to work one form ten times and do drills based on that form, and warmups and kihon.Just.



kata afficionados are always trying to show that kata is the ultimate thing, but sometimes, there is no consistency among some of you. Ted, one of the biggest kata afficionados on here wrote that his fighting proficiency was completely due to kata alone, yet wouldn't teach kata for someone going to prison. He also said kata wasn't good for fighting I think. With the scenario you describe, there's no mathematical way it's going to work. I don't understand. Hey, I still like you man.;)

You're cool with me too, Manny, I think if we all got together,we'd get along just fine.I suspect we like the same things.:D

Kata is a long term investment of which bunkai are a dividend.

Like a long term money investment, if you don't invest heavy, the dividend will be little.Those who practice a kata-based system must either be in it for the long haul, or must do a lot of one kata in a little time, and invest heavy.

If someone needed self defense fast, kata ain't the way to go.If you however, want a long term self defense,of great efficiency, along with the short term stuff,then kata should be done as I said, at least three a day for three years, and break it down with partners, taking one's time.

Its like, if you want meat and potatoes, nothing fancy,
Do the basics, and let it go at that. If you want aged steak and fine wine, do kata, long term, or short term and heavy investment, but those are minimum three to four hour workouts.Of course, I was in my twenties then, and could do that crazy workout schedule.

What is usually taught in commercial dojo with kata centered work is more what Fernando describes,but at some point, if one really wnats to go this route, time investment is needed.

It used to take thirty minutes to do thirty wankan kata.In a three to four hour training session, this was not that much.Other times, one only did kata, for a couple hours, then drills to break down the techniques, about three waza per session, botth partners.Like in Judo.You don't drill all forty throws each time.Same with kata.

Hope that clarifies it. This really happened.After a while, its like riding a bycicle, as long as you ride a little each day you never forget. So the investment pays off.

But too many kata does mess up the process, I learned many, but do only a few.Maybe a different few for while, then another few.

But I have three core kata in shorin.One more important than the rest. I was told Wankan was Nagamine-San's favorite kata, as well.This is why my teacher taught it to me first.On the cover of the last edition of Nagamine's Book, that is a posture from wankan being done.

Sochin
16th October 2002, 23:22
OK,
you got my attention, here I am! :)

there is no consistency among some of you. Ted, one of the biggest kata afficionados on here wrote that his fighting proficiency was completely due to kata alone, yet wouldn't teach kata for someone going to prison. He also said kata wasn't good for fighting I think.

My meaning was:
if I was to learn fighting by having fights, I would never have learned anything because all I got was beat up.

Kata taught me to be aware of myself, where I was in space, where my mass was centered and moving to. Kata taught me to be agile, balanced and graceful. It also taugth me to hit with full power because no body got hurt when I did it. Now when I break boards, or stones or hit the bag, unless I using open hand stuff, none of it uses as much energy or force as I do punching in kata.

So, enter the topic of my fighting proficiency: since I fought clients and was under regulations, I could not brawl with them, kick or punch them. I could only be defensive. And, lo and behold, I could do it! I never got hit, only got bit once and never got kicked. I'd move in on an angry raging guy and put him face down on the floor and sweet talk him into giving up. This ability came from kata and drilling because I still couldn't spar worth a ding-dong.

Next step: teaching someone going to prison - this guy does not need to know how to sweet talk anyone; his needs, the situation and the types of people he will face are totally different. Different jobs, different tools. He needs fighting spirit and a half dozen useful tools to build his confidence so he can let his fighting spirit loose. He'd get clean cut FAS from me and that is all. No sparring. No BJJ. No kata.

Lastly, even tho I write this about myself, I'm never writing about what is best for anyone else...I'll leave that for some young expert. Never do I imply that what worked for me is good for everyone or anyone else, just that it worked for me.

So, as you can see, no lack of consistancy, just a lack of understanding. :)

Goju Man
17th October 2002, 02:06
John my freind, I don't know if you are pulling my leg or what. I don't know how you can have a job, family, or anything else. I can run a half marathon in less time. :D Eight hours of work, at least thirty minutes to and from, eight hours sleep, at least thirty minutes to and from your workout place, six hours training. That's twenty four hours. No eating, bathroom, family, etc. I don't need to hear anymore. WOW! Professional athletes train less than that. Well, maybe not all, but at least they don't have to go to work. I've heard many people including different types of athletes work out two times a day, but six hours? Continuos? I guess that it means kata is not practicle. If you have to invest six hours a day, and who knows how many years, that's not practicle. If your life was dependant on kata, you'd be a dead man, unless you could put your attackers off for about ten or fifteen years 'till you got good.:D You da man Johnny!;)

Ted, whew, I don't know how you can top that, man. ;)

Next step: teaching someone going to prison - this guy does not need to know how to sweet talk anyone; his needs, the situation and the types of people he will face are totally different. Different jobs, different tools. He needs fighting spirit and a half dozen useful tools to build his confidence so he can let his fighting spirit loose. He'd get clean cut FAS from me and that is all. No sparring. No BJJ. No kata.
If he could fight that good, what's the purpose of kata?

So, enter the topic of my fighting proficiency: since I fought clients and was under regulations, I could not brawl with them, kick or punch them. I could only be defensive. And, lo and behold, I could do it! I never got hit, only got bit once and never got kicked. I'd move in on an angry raging guy and put him face down on the floor and sweet talk him into giving up. This ability came from kata and drilling because I still couldn't spar worth a ding-dong.
Ted, once again, you're going from fighting experienced guys comparable to you if not superior to people far less superior to you. Probably not kata, you are just plain better, probably due to your fighting superior fighters. When you constantly fight better fighters, then fight an inferior one, you can see him comin' from a country mile away. I would bet you money, if you trained without fighting and only kata, your results would vary quite a bit I think.
That is unless you do it for six hours daily for three to five years.
:D How many poorly trained karateka must there be out there?:D

Fernando, that sounds much more realistic. We used to break down different strategies on different days. For example, Friday was kumite night. Even if we may have done some earlier in the week, Fridays were always fight night. Mondays were kata and kihons, Wendnesdays were self defense, kata bunkai, maybe fighting. Conditioning at least two of those days, all though, to be in top condition, it is always the individuals responsibility to supplement his training like runing, etc.

kusanku
20th October 2002, 00:00
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John my freind, I don't know if you are pulling my leg or what./quote]

What.:D

[quote]I don't know how you can have a job, family, or anything else.

I wouldn't, if today I trained that way, but that was thirty years ago, and I worked, ate, slept and did karate/ Yes, we took breaks, but worked out A Lot.Kihhon, Kata, Goshinjutsu, bags and weights, gloves and drills.


I can run a half marathon in less time. :D Eight hours of work, at least thirty minutes to and from, eight hours sleep,

About five hours of sleep then. Young, strong and not too bright about health, we were.



at least thirty minutes to and from your workout place, six hours training. That's twenty four hours.

Factor in the extra three hours, breaks, and half hour twice a day to eat.


I don't need to hear anymore. WOW! Professional athletes train less than that.

We were in shape like boxers, we were fanatic about karate training.I don't do that anymore, haven't for decades, heck, these days, a workout may be a half hour, an hour, and I train five minutes a day every day, whether I need to or not.:D The payoff for those earlier years.Might do a kata workout, maybe thirteen kata, one done three times and ten others.Good workout.



Well, maybe not all, but at least they don't have to go to work. I've heard many people including different types of athletes work out two times a day, but six hours? Continuos? I guess that it means kata is not practicle. If you have to invest six hours a day, and who knows how many years, that's not practicle. If your life was dependant on kata, you'd be a dead man, unless you could put your attackers off for about ten or fifteen years 'till you got good.:D

You train that way, you get good quick.And we were the bouncers at that Y, so we had what you might call the daily possibillity of using what we practiced.That was in 72, 73, when the Kung Fu movies came out, thank you Bruce Lee.We had no trouble we could not handle.Most didn't try us twice.But we moved way faster than anyone who challeneged us.We were, after all, the only people who knew martial arts in town except a few, and they were our buddies.Different time.No one was carrying guns then, either, only knives, and we were not completely unarmed ourselves.Tough little town, it was.



You da man Johnny!;) {/quote]

Well, I was one Of 'em, that's for sure.Oss!:D and you guys are cool with me, too, for real.:-)

[quote]Ted, whew, I don't know how you can top that, man. ;)

I don't know that he would want to. We lived for karate back then, our small group. Ready to fight and die for honor, true samurai, yeah. Better things to do with ones life, there are. Karate is a fine hobby to keep in shape and learn self defense, beyond that, its usefulness is pretty much nil.

kusanku
20th October 2002, 00:07
Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]John my freind, I don't know if you are pulling my leg or what./quote]

What.:D

[quote]I don't know how you can have a job, family, or anything else.

I wouldn't, if today I trained that way, but that was thirty years ago, and I worked, ate, slept and did karate/ Yes, we took breaks, but worked out A Lot.Kihhon, Kata, Goshinjutsu, bags and weights, gloves and drills.


I can run a half marathon in less time. :D Eight hours of work, at least thirty minutes to and from, eight hours sleep,

About five hours of sleep then. Young, strong and not too bright about health, we were.



at least thirty minutes to and from your workout place, six hours training. That's twenty four hours.

Factor in the extra three hours, breaks, and half hour twice a day to eat.


I don't need to hear anymore. WOW! Professional athletes train less than that.

We were in shape like boxers, we were fanatic about karate training.I don't do that anymore, haven't for decades, heck, these days, a workout may be a half hour, an hour, and I train five minutes a day every day, whether I need to or not.:D The payoff for those earlier years.Might do a kata workout, maybe thirteen kata, one done three times and ten others.Good workout.



Well, maybe not all, but at least they don't have to go to work. I've heard many people including different types of athletes work out two times a day, but six hours? Continuos? I guess that it means kata is not practicle. If you have to invest six hours a day, and who knows how many years, that's not practicle. If your life was dependant on kata, you'd be a dead man, unless you could put your attackers off for about ten or fifteen years 'till you got good.:D

You train that way, you get good quick.And we were the bouncers at that Y, so we had what you might call the daily possibillity of using what we practiced.That was in 72, 73, when the Kung Fu movies came out, thank you Bruce Lee.We had no trouble we could not handle.Most didn't try us twice.But we moved way faster than anyone who challeneged us.We were, after all, the only people who knew martial arts in town except a few, and they were our buddies.Different time.No one was carrying guns then, either, only knives, and we were not completely unarmed ourselves.Tough little town, it was.



You da man Johnny!;) {/quote]

Well, I was one Of 'em, that's for sure.Oss!:D and you guys are cool with me, too, for real.:-)


[quote]That is unless you do it for six hours daily for three to five years.
:D How many poorly trained karateka must there be out there?:D

I always found this to be the case. We called such individuals Candy Dancers.:D

To their faces. Then they would challenge us to spar. Har, har, har.:D
Life was good.Then we'd go eat.Old, days, good days.

Goju Man
22nd October 2002, 03:13
Then we'd go eat.Old, days, good days.

And don't forfet the brewskis. :D