Kyohan vs kamokuhyo

[Robert Liljeblad]

Gassho,

Trying to make my way through the Kyohan, not getting very far. I have at least found that the Kamokuhyo and Kyohan have some differences when it comes to included techniques.

To exemplify Kyohan, Nioken family contains Machi geri this does not exist in the Kamokuhyo. There are more examples…how come? Anybody knowing the reasons for this?

Kesshu,

[Gary Dolce]

Robert,

Gassho,

Having lived through three different versions of the kamoku (not sure of correct spelling), I sympathize. I once asked a Japanese sensei a similar question about the kamoku and his reply was simply that it isn't perfect. I stopped worrying about it after that.

Gary

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
Dolce-Sensei, your spelling of "kamoku" was correct. "Kamoku" means "syllabus", so "kamoku-jutsu" is "syllabus techniques".
The point of the Kyohan is that it is far more detailed than the syllabus, and contains a lot of the history of Chinese bujutsu, as well as Kaiso's autobiographical details of his time in China. If Machi Geri does not appear in the syllabus, it's a sin of omission rather than a sin of inaccuracy. (Although one could argue that omission is an inaccuracy.)
The Kyohan is a brain-bender to read, though; it contains a lot of archaic Kanji which requires even me to look them up! (Oh, the horror of it! ;) )
Maybe one day they'll be a pared-down English version available, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Kesshu.

[Robert Liljeblad]

Gassho,

Does anybody know if Hombu has any plans of starting to translate Kyohan into English?

Must be an important step to spread SK, since it’s the core source of what So Doshin taught. Thinking it is not easily done and will probably take years – a project like that should at least be launched….

Br,

[Anders Pettersson]

_||_
Gassho.
Hi Robert and others.

As for more differences in content of the Kyouhan and the Kamokuhyo I thought that I could mention some other techniques (as far as I know from my limited ability to read in the Kyouhan).

Soto oshi uke geri and Uchi oshi uke geri are in the Kamoku but not in the Kyouhan.
Hagai jime is mentioned in the Kamoku (5 dan) but not in the Kyouhan, (apart from mentioning that Hagai shuho is a defence against hagai jime).
There is no (as far as I know, I haven't found any anyway) explanation of Bakuho.

Then there is a group called Rakan teiho (the Rakan strangulation methods, "tei" can also be read as "shime", there is 8 techniques in this group) that is not mentioned in Kamoku and in the Kyouhan it only says something like: "in order to learn these techniques you should ask your sensei".



Originally posted by Robert Persson
Does anybody know if Hombu has any plans of starting to translate Kyohan into English?
I have asked several times about Hombus plans for a translation and I once got an answer from Sosai (So Yuuki) that she hoped that there would be a translation during her time as leader of Shorinjikempo.

I know that there are some kenshi translating different parts of it. (As for myself I have done some of the Goho and started out with some of the Juho. But for the philosophy, that is far beyond my Japanese knowledge.)
I believe that in order to do a good job on translating the Kyouhan, it has to be done by kenshi. The WSKO office do not have the resources to do this, at least not in the near future, but I think that the cooperation among kenshi, that have good knowledge of Shorinjikempo and good ability in Japanese, can do a good job if helping out and doing different parts.

/Anders

[Jeremy Williams]

The Honbu is already in possession of a copy of an excellent translation of a large chunk of the first section of the Kyohan, covering SK's early history, Kaiso's thoughts on organized religion, etc. It was carried out with their permission, on the understanding that no translation was to be made of any of the sections on the history of Budo or the explanations of the techniques themselves. I know it's excellent, because I did it! I also made it clear to them that I'd be more than happy if they were to publish all, or any portion, thereof. The reply I got thanked me for my efforts and informed me that they were in possession of MANY translations from around the world!!! So why don't they publish something? I think the answer may be found in the content, some of which they might not wish to make public right now, and in the deeply held, and somewhat cherished, native Japanese belief that nobody but a native Japanese can really understand their language. The tendency to this belief is particularly accentuated in this instance by the fact that the Japanese contained in the Kyohan is a tough read, even for an educated native speaker. If anyone has any more questions regarding the first reason I gave, please e-mail me.

Jeremy Williams

[Indar]

Jeremys' post is interesting in that it relates to another issue with the kamoku. In the gakka for dan grades are questions such as 'What is a religion?', and 'The moral nature of Dharma and human divinity'. However it seems that we do not study these questions in the West. Is this related to the reluctance to publish English language translations of the Kyohan?

Indar Picton-Howell

[Jeremy Williams]

Indar, that's interesting. I had wondered what was done about covering such questions over there. I had asssumed that Mizuno Sensei provided information on SK's take on those questions personally. So just how are they prepared for over there? As to what the Kyohan has to say on those questions, it makes an interesting read. Kaiso, particularly for a Japanese, was remarkably forthright in his way of speaking. He didn't so much call a spade a spade as a bloody shovel. Personally, I love it. It makes a refreshing change. I can see how it might have upset some people back then. But not now though. I reckon we need to get someone of Mizuno Sensei's stature to push the Honbu on this. Even if they wish to discard some of the Kyohan, then at least they could come up with a new compilation and have it translated by Japanese-speaking foreign kenshi. There are two professional Japanese-speaking kenshi contributing to this forum. I suspect there may be many more.


Jeremy Williams

[Indar]

Jeremy,
The situation in the UK is that these questions don't get asked in gradings, and that generally these issues are not discussed. I don't know whether this is also the case in the rest of Europe or the USA.
That's why I was interested as to whether this is connected with the reluctance to provide translations of the Kyohan. It's possible that Hombu feel that these questions could be misunderstood or misrepresented by Westerners.

Indar Picton-Howell

[tony leith]

I feel a bit nervous interposing myself in this discussion, given that 1)I'm a mere 2nd dan and 2)my Japanese vocabulary is limited to the functional for training sort, and even then it's in a Scottish accent. I have to say I find these references to the contents of these texts quite tantalising - the only text by Kaiso I've read beyond the Fukodukohon (assuming that this is more or less a translation of his words) is a copy of his 'What is shorinji kempo?' book. This was interesting, especially on the philosophical side, but didn't really present some of his arguments at a great enough length to form critical opinions of them. The apparent reluctance of Honbu to publish translations of these texts casts an interesting sidelight on the 'cultural differences' thread. It seems it's not only Westerners that fret about these issues.

I do understand the reservations about disseminating the technical content widely, but I find it mildly insulting if there is an asumption that Westerners wouldn't be able to grasp the subtleties of arguments re. the nature of religion or even 'human divinity'. Granted the problem may simply be that the actual translation of Kaiso's idiom presents particular problems, but one can't help but wonder if internal politics/cultural conservatism are playing a part. I wonder if in the end this might not be doing Kaiso a disservice - I have the impression that he was pretty forceful personality who rprobably wouldn't have been unduly troubled about his ideas having to make their way in an unfamiliar cultural context. If some Japanese kenshi do pass their gakka exams through rote learning rather than critical reflection, is this really a fitting memorial to Kaiso's ideas and his desire to create a revitalised philosophical martial art?

With regard to dissemination of technical knowledge, there do seem to be a fair number of sources available in Japanese, with instructors as eminent as Oueda Sensei and Mori Sensei even appearing in Japanese martial arts magazines. While I realise there are limitations of the kind of resources Honbu has, I wonder if it might be possible to coordinate some kind of officially sanctioned effort to get kenshi with the relevant expertise to translate some of this material so it could be a common resource?

Tony Leith

[Jeremy Williams]

Tony, I don't believe for one moment that the people at the Honbu consider us Westerners incapable of understanding the contents of the Kyohan. With regard to the philosophical side, I suspect it has to do more with Kaiso's tone and opinions. Genius he may well have been, but, like all of us, he was a product of his time, and consequently some of what he said might come over as being a wee bit strong these days or simply irrelevant to Japan and the world in the year 2002.
Having said that, I firmly believe that much of what he says is still very much relevant and extremely astute. It's a real shame that more is not available to the non-Japanese speaking public. And not just the Kyohan, but from among his other writings and speeches, too.
By the way, the technical information in the Kyohan would only excite your disappointment. Much of it is along the lines of, "If attacked thus, you tie them up with a deft movement of the wrist. Please consult your Sensei for further details." Far more detailed information is available from any bookstore in the various technical manuals they have published. That's the really strange part: any thug or dodgy character can gain better access to this stuff than we can. So whatever the reason may be for their reluctance to publish such, I simply can't believe it's down to a fear of such information getting into the wrong hands. If any other Kenshi can shed some light on this conundrum, please do.

Jeremy Williams

[David Dunn]

Tony,
regarding the recent article by Mori Sensei, I have an excellent translation made by Aran (is he reading this?). It is still packed away after moving, but I can dig it out. Perhaps someone could scan it and put it on the BSKF website?

As for the Kyohan, I too am tantalized by the knowledge that there are translations available and I would love to read it. Could anyone fill me in on the history of Fukudoku-hon? Is it a translation of a Japanese text, or was it specifically written for WSKO?

Gassho,
David

[George Hyde]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony,
regarding the recent article by Mori Sensei, I have an excellent translation made by Aran (is he reading this?). It is still packed away after moving, but I can dig it out. Perhaps someone could scan it and put it on the BSKF website

As I understand it, Aran is awaiting Mizuno Senei's approval before making the translation available.

Later,

[David Dunn]

George,
thanks, and understood.

Dave

[Eastwood]

The Fukudoku-hon began as a Japanese book made available to all new kenshi as a resource for the philosophical side. I understand that it is a Hombu publication,and so lists no author, but rather is an edited volume, by the Japanese Federation's Committe for Propagation (Fukyoh Iinkai). My copy lists the copyright as June 10, 1987. When a kenshi made the translation in the winter of '90-'91, Hombu elected to add in a fair amount of technical details, specifically everything with pictures. There are a few other minor differences, (such as a short section on the state of religion in Japan) but essentially they are the same book. The translation happened because Hombu wanted it and because senior and junior kenshi at the branch level took initiative from their side as well to earn Hombu approval. If we keep at it, and we are "honest with our teachers" (shi wo azamukazu) at Hombu, then I imagine we can get other resources issued officially as well.

[David Dunn]

Michael, thanks for the information.

[Jeremy Williams]

Michael, are you implying that the rest of us who have approached the Honbu over the years haven't been honest with out teachers? Surely, I must be misreading you there. Anyway, I suspect it is rather more than just a matter of us being gung ho and obedient little boys and girls.

Jeremy Williams

[Eastwood]

Jeremy,
I quoted the Seigan there to emphasize the value of putting trust in our teachers at Hombu who have their reasons for holding back on translations. So long as we are honest with them, then we retain the freedom to keep pushing for further English language material sanctioned by Hombu. That is, we are free to help them gain reasons to approve English language materials.

Actually, I do think it's a matter of us being good little boys and girls. But I think the best sorts of boys and girls are the ones who desire something intensely and push their teachers to give it up. The key to pushing teachers while still maintaining the relationship is to retain their trust, as well as ours in them.

Maybe we don't get it yet.

For example, Kaiso's explanations in the Kyohan often emphasize the importance of learning directly from a good teacher, and his old students emphasize how much he showed, but how little he explained. Maybe he cared more to get people to pay attention to their relations with each other than for the details. Maybe we're better off trying to learn from the teachers at our dojo than by trying to learn from people not in front of us now.

Maybe the one person to whom one should pay closer attention than one's teacher is oneself. Maybe the teachings are all just hints. My guess is we learn faster when we trust that we already have good teachers, and the written stuff, despite all its value, can distract us from our teachers and ourselves. My guess is that the Shorinji Kempo approach to learning to trust oneself is to learn to trust one's teacher, and then learn how to trust oneself. Perhaps that's the first point at which one has the margin to doubt the teacher without slowing one's own learning.

This is not so much a reply, now, as an amplification of what I meant to imply the first time by mentioning being honest.

[George Hyde]

Originally posted by David Dunn
regarding the recent article by Mori Sensei, I have an excellent translation made by Aran (is he reading this?). It is still packed away after moving, but I can dig it out. Perhaps someone could scan it and put it on the BSKF website?


The article is now available here (http://)

Later,

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Link is taken away for the moment.
There will be some checks on the accuracy of the translation and also make sure about copyright issue.
Hopefully we will have a link to the article in a day or two.
/Anders
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