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Melbourne
12th October 2002, 16:31
Just wanted to get some instructors opinions, as to whether they teach as it is done in Japan OR do you add in extras ( eg free sparing) that they think are nessecary.

If you add in the extras what do you add in and for what reasons

no judgments here, just curious

regards
Craig Guest

shinbushi
12th October 2002, 21:51
I try to teach as close as I can to Japan for all my regular classes.
I have a could of special classes that I and my students experement in.

Melbourne
13th October 2002, 05:03
Thanks Guys,

few added on questions

David,
if your ok with it would you expand on the special classes experiments statment with some ideas as to what you do.

Rick,
if you don't mind my asking. IF when you get to Japan and the training isn't like what your currently doing would you then change the way that you train or would you keep on training as you are with the cross pollination sessions and the GBK sessions only would adjust to be more like Japan.

also, if you know, what are Tanemura Sans views on Randori ?


My own training is "as done in Japan" to the best of my ability anyway. We do no Randori and only on the odd occasion hit/kick pads. Although in the past i have done "sparring" when i studied TKD about 20 years ago


regards
Craig Guest

R Erman
14th October 2002, 01:31
Originally posted by Melbourne
Just wanted to get some instructors opinions, as to whether they teach as it is done in Japan OR do you add in extras ( eg free sparing) that they think are nessecary.

If you add in the extras what do you add in and for what reasons

no judgments here, just curious

regards
Craig Guest

I'm not trying to be flippant here, but, randori is not something "new" or an "extra". In Japan it was done regularly and called Taryu Jiai--at least for inter-school matches.

Now, I know that the intent of the question was do you teach as taught in Japan now. But sparring and resistance training is not new to Japan, many of the original rules of Judo were taken directly from the way in which jujutsu matches were decided in the Edo period--albeit judo is a little more concerned with both participants going home at the end of the day;)

I think it's a sad misunderstanding that so many feel that randori is not integral to development, or not approved of, simply because they do not see their much more seasoned seniors doing it in Japan.

There are those teachers who do not approve, maybe even some in the kans, but there is no doubt in my mind that the shihan did(and maybe still do) test their art under the duress of a resisting opponent.

The teachers of other jujutsu/taijutsu styles who do not test themselves, or say that randori is not good for development, are probably associated with those who were never heard of untill after the american occupation outlawed MA to the extent that they didn't have to worry about being challenged by others.

Melbourne
15th October 2002, 02:08
Hi all,

thanks for the replies, they are all interesting. And yes i agree that with such an open forum that the risk of bieing misinterepereted are high so thanks again for making your posts nice and clear.

I know that my initial questions COULD be taken as a bit trolly so i really appreciate the honesty with the answers as exposure to critisism is rife on e-budo.

personally i think that what your are doing is fine Richard, i personally like the fact that you have clear distinctions between the different things that you do, each one with it's own box .. so to speak.

R Erman
yes i see you point and agree with your sentiments mostly, but perhaps i should have been a little clearer with my " free sparing" comment. The free sparring i had in my own mind was more like the TKD stuff i've done in the past but BJK based naturaly. What your refering to i would , personaly, put in the free fighting basket/ inter dojo challenge type of activity.

As we all know there have been many chalenges knock on the BJK's door in the early days when Soke first opened up his art to Japan. Naturaly when you popup out of no where and say metaphoricaly "hi i'm a ninja" i would imagine that the list of challengers would be long and hard. I have heard that one of the Japanese 10th dans was originally a challanger, who after being beaten joined the school. Perhaps someone with some knowledge of this could verify(without mentioning the persons name naturally).

Ok heres a question what do you cut out when you free spar, ie intensity with locks kicks to the groin eye, gouging, protective equipment etc ?

Give me a brief run down on a typical day at the office

Cheers
Craig Guest

PS private messages are also fine with me if you wish to express yourselfs in a less obvious way

Craig

R Erman
15th October 2002, 02:45
Hi Craig,

Personally, for me, there are several types of sparring that can be utilized. The type that I do the most of is judo-like randori. This involves both members in a clinch(kumi-uchi) and involves both nage and ne waza. Emphasis is on setting up and executing good throws, which then normally leads to matwork as the "thrown" normally latches on to the thrower. Matwork is normally fast-paced with a fight to a dominant position and then a "simulated" joint destruction(i.e. submission), or strangulation.

Sometimes we do just ne waza, both students starting from the TYR version of seiza(on the balls of the feet) but I try to keep my people in the mindset that groundfighting also includes fighting-up from the ground, not just searching for submission.

Advanced randori, or maybe it should be called kumite, involves striking and joint-locking from standing and ground. This normally is started with both people apart from each other, not clinch range--although clinch range normaly happens pretty quickly. In these cases headgear and grappling gloves are used.

Do we leave out strikes or certain locks? Yes, you can only simulate some techniques against a resisting person, or you are not going to have training partners to train with for long. For instance, you mentioned eye gouges, also locks like oni kudaki are hard to use without damaging the other participant. I've used waza like musou and musha dori in sparring, but normally I don't want less experienced people trying to employ these in that arena.

There is also what I might call "soft" sparring where more dangerous techniques can be used because both people have the integrity to admit when/if they've been had. This is normally slower and can involve alot more use of our tools. This also teaches everyone, including the teacher, to see how easy it is to get into the habit of ignoring potentially dangerous techniques because they aren't used in full speed randori. I will admit I don't use this often, as most of the benefits can be obtained through situational self-defense, without compromising the efficacy of heavier sparring and with the added benefit of using role playing and adrenal stress to mimic "real-life" confrontation(yeah, I read Peyton Quinn ;) )